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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: WHICH CAME FIRST
vertical line Posted on Feb.10.2007 @ 10:29AM EDT by fatnhappy
As some of you know I have been struggling with the concept of what God is . I have been doing some research and anything I read or discuss with others is pure opinion . For this mind its hard to put a realism or paint a picture of what God is . Many people believe there is one  , or many or that there in not .  I am confused about where the idea of an entity or all knowing being came from .

         I have a question , which came first

God or the Universe ?

Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email fatnhappy
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Reply from HarryB
Feb.10.2007
11:00AM EDT 
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If God is a concept he will soon die with his creator.

While it is arguable that there is evidence for the creation of the universe, there is nothing to suggest what was there before it became what we generally accept as manifest. If its like everything else in known reality, the universe is the result of previous energies and conditions.

Its not hard for mind to paint a picture of God, its incredibly easy for mind to do that and we've been doing it with instances of supreme vanity for quite some time.

If you accept that God IS everything holistically as some Christians now emphasise more and more then the movement AND stillness of your own mind is inherently 'God' and you need not look nor think further.

If you accept that he's some seperate sort of wise guy who stands back with his hands up as we make assholes of ourselves and each other then imagine 'him'  to your hearts content: everybody else in this school is.

All the best,

Harry.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 68492
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Reply from stephen
Feb.10.2007
11:01AM EDT 
Email stephen
vertical line YES
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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.10.2007
11:21AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line The languages of God, come as a surprise, are in all sensations and thoughts, can transcend time and space, are not limited by dimension. God dwells in silence most comfortably, as in compassion. God dwells in discomfort as potential of rebirth.

The word of  "God" is dropped as sound reference in communion, is not capable of being spoken of as a matter of pride and separation. It is capable of existing under any and all conditions. It is not tested, for lacking.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 68495
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Reply from boymonk
Feb.10.2007
12:18PM EDT 
vertical line For God, the universe came first. For the universe, God came first. Women usually come second, or not at all. hehe
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 68499
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Reply from ______
Feb.10.2007
12:18PM EDT 
vertical line It doesn't matter which came first.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 68498
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Reply from whatzen
Feb.10.2007
12:20PM EDT 
Email whatzen
vertical line When the question arises of which comes first is when both God and Universe are together created. They are one and the same.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 68500
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Reply from ______
Feb.10.2007
12:23PM EDT 
vertical line Cuz beyond tick-tock tick-tock, there is no first and second, earlier and later.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 68501
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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.10.2007
12:25PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line If you make one of them home Buddha altars... what's the first thing you put on it? Be honest. Or where is the first place you look after this thought? No, a little higher. Still higher. Keep goin'. Ok, can stop  looking now.
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Reply from lehish
Feb.10.2007
12:58PM EDT 
Email lehish
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A hermit was meditating by a river when a young man interrupted him. "Master, I wish to become your disciple," said the man. "Why?" replied the hermit. The young man thought for a moment. "Because I want to find God."

The master jumped up, grabbed him by the scruff of his neck, dragged him into the river, and plunged his head under water. After holding him there for a minute, with him kicking and struggling to free himself, the master finally pulled him up out of the river. The young man coughed up water and gasped to get his breath. When he eventually quieted down, the master spoke. "Tell me, what did you want most of all when you were under water." "Air!" answered the man.

"Very well," said the master. "Go home and come back to me when you want God as much as you just wanted air."

"Very well," said the master. "Go home and come back to me when you want God as much as you just wanted air."

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Reply from lehish
Feb.10.2007
01:00PM EDT 
Email lehish
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fnh...then"struggle'"/question won't important ;)

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Reply from ______
Feb.10.2007
01:26PM EDT 
vertical line Why did the master hermit think that the young man's desire for God was less than his desire for air?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 68509
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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.10.2007
01:37PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line God started out breathing light. On the in-breath darkness. On the out-breath light. Between the two, was creation.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 68510
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Reply from ______
Feb.10.2007
02:08PM EDT 
vertical line Well, God is the breath. And the master hermit is a dualist.
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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.10.2007
02:34PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line He/she is, and is not.
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Reply from -----0
Feb.10.2007
03:00PM EDT 
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Quote: I have a question , which came first God or the Universe?"
.........

Where would they come from?

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Reply from free1500
Feb.10.2007
03:42PM EDT 
Email free1500
vertical line The chicken
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Reply from -----0
Feb.10.2007
03:52PM EDT 
vertical line The chicken came and asked, Am I the first?
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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.10.2007
04:12PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line I'd like to see that chicken. "Bwwaakkk?"
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 68525
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Reply from ______
Feb.10.2007
04:27PM EDT 
vertical line Want an egg or three?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 68530
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Reply from ______
Feb.10.2007
04:36PM EDT 
vertical line Me chooks are all zzzzzzzzzzzzing comfy-like and content right now. In daylight they see beyond any mask - sometimes one is first and another last, held in the hand of the beloved - a forever enough chicken - that's it.
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Reply from 77 zen ror
Feb.10.2007
04:42PM EDT 
Email 77 zen ror
vertical line  Both, god made it all. For all of as to enjoy. God is in you
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 68532
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Reply from 77 zen ror
Feb.10.2007
04:55PM EDT 
Email 77 zen ror
vertical line Quote: " Both, god made it all. For all of as to enjoy. God is in you "
......... There's a pice oe god in all of us just in side your heart
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 68533
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Reply from 77 zen ror
Feb.10.2007
10:39PM EDT 
Email 77 zen ror
vertical line It is always said, "I am who I am"..."I am Alpha and Omega"..."I am the beginning and the end"....
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 68539
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Reply from En Shin
Feb.11.2007
08:43AM EDT 
Email En Shin
vertical line Quote: "

If God is a concept he will soon die with his creator.

While it is arguable that there is evidence for the creation of the universe, there is nothing to suggest what was there before it became what we generally accept as manifest. If its like everything else in known reality, the universe is the result of previous energies and conditions.

Its not hard for mind to paint a picture of God, its incredibly easy for mind to do that and we've been doing it with instances of supreme vanity for quite some time.

If you accept that God IS everything holistically as some Christians now emphasise more and more then the movement AND stillness of your own mind is inherently 'God' and you need not look nor think further.

If you accept that he's some seperate sort of wise guy who stands back with his hands up as we make assholes of ourselves and each other then imagine 'him'  to your hearts content: everybody else in this school is.

All the best,

Harry.

"
.........

Harry,

I think you are exactly rigbnt.

I would add:

Once again, this is a case of the question itself being faulty, because it rests on unchallenged, and unconfirmed assumptions.  It assumes there is anything real which corresponds to our concept called "god." 

This is just more plain old everyday mind.  We mistake our concepts for reality. We have an idea of god, so we assume there must really be something called god out there somewhere.  Concepts are useful tools, that's all.  Pick them up when you need them, put them down when you're done with them.

God is a concept, just like the "self."  The concept called "god"  is probably the most dangerous concept of all.  How much evil has come into the world in his name?  And how much mushy-headed thinking and self-inflating consolation. 

God was invented because we're scared of dying.  We are scared of dying because we are attached to our notion of ourselves as individual selves.  If we wake up to the awareness of no-self we can dispense with god, too, and see the world the way it really is, unmediated by our concepts.

Peace,

En Shin

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Reply from ______
Feb.11.2007
09:36AM EDT 
vertical line 'God' is a word for something you don't have an answer or question for. If you only knew the answer, eh? Did you say you are 'awakened'?
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Reply from ______
Feb.11.2007
10:31AM EDT 
vertical line Hey, perhaps there are some "high level discussions" (top drawer what?) 'about' God on Beliefnet.
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Reply from ______
Feb.11.2007
10:41AM EDT 
vertical line Then as now as always, this mongrel has work to do. Ralph (that's mongrelese.)
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Reply from whatzen
Feb.11.2007
11:28AM EDT 
Email whatzen
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Quote: "The chicken"
.........

Nobody ever mentions the rooster.

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Reply from free1500
Feb.11.2007
12:21PM EDT 
Email free1500
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "The chicken"
.........

Nobody ever mentions the rooster.

"
.........

"
.........

Chicken (species) Rooster (male) Hen (female)

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Reply from ______
Feb.12.2007
05:47PM EDT 
vertical line Did I ever tell you about my ancestry?
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Reply from boymonk
Feb.12.2007
05:56PM EDT 
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Reply from boymonk
Feb.12.2007
06:55PM EDT 
vertical line That's a chicken, in case you couldn't tell.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 68611
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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.12.2007
07:40PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Is it riding a skateboard?  Or was that before he was a chicken?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 68614
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Reply from boymonk
Feb.12.2007
07:55PM EDT 
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No, those are little chickadees’, they came after… or at the same time... depends on your point-of-view.

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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.12.2007
08:07PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Good point, from view.
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Reply from free1500
Feb.13.2007
01:17AM EDT 
Email free1500
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Quote: "Did I ever tell you about my ancestry? "
.........

don't tell me you're a chicken Pustic!

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Reply from ______
Feb.13.2007
07:05AM EDT 
vertical line If I tried to explain, I would be lying.
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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.13.2007
08:14AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line liar
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Reply from ______
Feb.13.2007
10:58AM EDT 
vertical line Sorry, laying.
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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.13.2007
11:17AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line that's a better egg
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Reply from lehish
Feb.14.2007
02:17PM EDT 
Email lehish
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In the market, in the cloister--only God I saw.
 In the valley and on the mountain--only God I saw.
 Him I have seen beside me oft in tribulation;
 In favour and in fortune--only God I saw.
 In prayer and fasting, in praise and contemplation,
 In the religion of the Prophet--only God I saw.
 Neither soul nor body, accident nor substance,
 Qualities nor causes--only God I saw.
 I oped mine eyes and by the light of His face around me
 In all the eye discovered--only God I saw.
 Like a candle I was melting in His fire:
 Amidst the flames outflashing--only God I saw.
 Myself with mine own eyes I saw most clearly,
 But when I looked with God's eyes--only God I saw.
 I passed away into nothingness, I vanished,
 And lo, I was the All-living--only God I saw.

   Baba Kuhi,

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Reply from shayne
Feb.15.2007
11:07AM EDT 
Email shayne
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God was invented because we're scared of dying.  We are scared of dying because we are attached to our notion of ourselves as individual selves.  If we wake up to the awareness of no-self we can dispense with god, too, and see the world the way it really is, unmediated by our concepts.

if we have no self then how come i projected out of my body and scared my mother?

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Reply from -----0
Feb.15.2007
12:30PM EDT 
vertical line  . . and why was the universe invented?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 68711
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Reply from lehish
Feb.15.2007
01:29PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line Quote: "

God was invented because we're scared of dying.  We are scared of dying because we are attached to our notion of ourselves as individual selves.  If we wake up to the awareness of no-self we can dispense with god, too, and see the world the way it really is, unmediated by our concepts.

if we have no self then how come i projected out of my body and scared my mother?

"
.........

"
.........

word God can be used for not imagining-a-God

"if we have no self then how come i projected out of my body and scared my mother?"

was imagining-projection (a self that could be "projected")

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Reply from whatzen
Feb.15.2007
01:32PM EDT 
Email whatzen
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Quote: " . . and why was the universe invented?"
.........

So you could ask that question.

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Reply from ______
Feb.15.2007
02:29PM EDT 
vertical line Listening to the questions in silence, mindfully and one dispenses with answers (too many answers - better to listen carefully to the question), rather than worry about "dispensing with God". For some, words are traps - words are everywhere, advertising hoardings, television, newspapers and magazines et al saying taste, smell, eat, drink and buy. For some, words seem to have have lost the power to create and have no meaning beyond "buy me". But God speaks light.

To say there is no God is like saying, "I have no tongue" with my own tongue. When someone says, "There is no God", in that moment there is an agreement that there is God. When we say that something is 'not' we imply a previous knowledge of that something. So, how do you prove the non-existence of something not known?
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Reply from shayne
Feb.15.2007
07:31PM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

God was invented because we're scared of dying.  We are scared of dying because we are attached to our notion of ourselves as individual selves.  If we wake up to the awareness of no-self we can dispense with god, too, and see the world the way it really is, unmediated by our concepts.

if we have no self then how come i projected out of my body and scared my mother?

"
.........

"
.........

word God can be used for not imagining-a-God

"if we have no self then how come i projected out of my body and scared my mother?"

was imagining-projection (a self that could be "projected")

"
.........

"
.........

it really happened. the doors opened and closed by themselves and she was freaked out for two days.

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Reply from shayne
Feb.15.2007
07:49PM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line all this talk of god is speculation. their is zen buddhists that believe in god. its called gedo zen. some will say no god and others will say god. any formulation in the mind will be just that. no one knows for sure. no one can. no one speaks to god and he answers. this is a good koan though and one that should be meditated on if you desire an answer. the only answer i can give is i dont know. someone first mentioned the idea of god to someone else. that word god first started somewhere. it has to do with the idea of a permanant self. which we have. it is the buddha nature. what made this nature? if reincarnation is then their is a permanant self that manifests through differant life times. but what made this first occurance of the soul?
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Reply from ZenTurtle
Feb.16.2007
05:05AM EDT 
vertical line "Listening to the questions in silence, mindfully and one dispenses with answers (too many answers - better to listen carefully to the question), rather than worry about "dispensing with God". For some, words are traps - words are everywhere, advertising hoardings, television, newspapers and magazines et al saying taste, smell, eat, drink and buy. For some, words seem to have have lost the power to create and have no meaning beyond "buy me". But God speaks light.

To say there is no God is like saying, "I have no tongue" with my own tongue. When someone says, "There is no God", in that moment there is an agreement that there is God. When we say that something is 'not' we imply a previous knowledge of that something. So, how do you prove the non-existence of something not known?"

**********

First I'm going to start by saying "I have a lisp"



An eccentric philosophy professor gave a one question final exam after a semester dealing with a broad array of topics.

The class was already seated and ready to go when the professor picked up his chair, plopped it on his desk and wrote on the board: "Using everything we have learned this semester, prove that this chair does not exist."

Fingers flew, erasers erased, notebooks were filled in furious fashion. Some students wrote over 30 pages in one hour attempting to refute the existence of the chair. One member of the class however, was up and finished in less than a minute.

Weeks later when the grades were posted, the rest of the group wondered how he could have gotten an A when he had barely written anything at all.
This is what he wrote: "What chair?"

http://shortys-shell.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!FC387C10B15EA7DA!1691.entry
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Reply from ______
Feb.16.2007
05:38AM EDT 
vertical line Ecthentric? What class? What grades? What professor? What student? What final exam?

Everything has name and form. Don't worry about words such as God, Buddha, true nature, Zen, Original Face, Emptiness - the table is the place to be.
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Reply from -----0
Feb.16.2007
08:58AM EDT 
vertical line the chicken was not the first. we got it when I was 3
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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.16.2007
01:23PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line In the beginning was the male.
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Reply from -----0
Feb.16.2007
01:41PM EDT 
vertical line in the beginning everything was exactly like now
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Reply from gebhart099
Feb.17.2007
10:08AM EDT 
Email gebhart099
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

If God is a concept he will soon die with his creator.

While it is arguable that there is evidence for the creation of the universe, there is nothing to suggest what was there before it became what we generally accept as manifest. If its like everything else in known reality, the universe is the result of previous energies and conditions.

Its not hard for mind to paint a picture of God, its incredibly easy for mind to do that and we've been doing it with instances of supreme vanity for quite some time.

If you accept that God IS everything holistically as some Christians now emphasise more and more then the movement AND stillness of your own mind is inherently 'God' and you need not look nor think further.

If you accept that he's some seperate sort of wise guy who stands back with his hands up as we make assholes of ourselves and each other then imagine 'him'  to your hearts content: everybody else in this school is.

All the best,

Harry.

"
.........

Harry,

I think you are exactly rigbnt.

I would add:

Once again, this is a case of the question itself being faulty, because it rests on unchallenged, and unconfirmed assumptions.  It assumes there is anything real which corresponds to our concept called "god." 

This is just more plain old everyday mind.  We mistake our concepts for reality. We have an idea of god, so we assume there must really be something called god out there somewhere.  Concepts are useful tools, that's all.  Pick them up when you need them, put them down when you're done with them.

God is a concept, just like the "self."  The concept called "god"  is probably the most dangerous concept of all.  How much evil has come into the world in his name?  And how much mushy-headed thinking and self-inflating consolation. 

God was invented because we're scared of dying.  We are scared of dying because we are attached to our notion of ourselves as individual selves.  If we wake up to the awareness of no-self we can dispense with god, too, and see the world the way it really is, unmediated by our concepts.

Peace,

En Shin

"
......... The concept of god  also functions as a final authority for what is really human morality. "Doing such and such is wrong because my god says it is wrong and don't you forget it." Buddhism takes a completely different approach by applying the law of cause and effect to moral questions.
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Reply from ______
Feb.17.2007
10:38AM EDT 
vertical line The concept of Buddha serves the same purpose, "functions as a final authority" for pious, puritan Buddhists. The approach may be different (arguable) but the result is the same.
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Reply from lehish
Feb.17.2007
01:39PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line yes
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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.17.2007
05:38PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line You heard her correctly, just so you'd know, again.
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Reply from Lionel
Feb.17.2007
09:01PM EDT 
Email Lionel
vertical line ...no-one knows... if it isn't, then it or he/she must be the first one arising first...no matter what it or he/she is being called or named as... NOW is happening just in a flash of moment...no more no less..., if not then it is you me & him make all the stories more interesting games on earth...
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Reply from lehish
Feb.17.2007
11:03PM EDT 
Email lehish
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yes

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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.18.2007
06:35AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line a typo
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Reply from ______
Feb.18.2007
09:15AM EDT 
vertical line Someone says, "no one knows" - first and second doesn't matter - it doesn't matter that no one knows, so you objectify it.
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Reply from ______
Feb.18.2007
09:41AM EDT 
vertical line ok, fnh:

..."struggling with the concept of what God is".
Easy - don't struggle with concepts.

..."hard to put a realism or paint a picture of what God is."
Excellent. Don't try.

..."confused about where the idea of an ... all knowing being came from."
Same place all ideas come from.

..."which came first God or the Universe?"
Suddenly you aren't talking concepts.
Listen to that question and live it.
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Reply from gebhart099
Feb.18.2007
10:01AM EDT 
Email gebhart099
vertical line Quote: "The concept of Buddha serves the same purpose, "functions as a final authority" for pious, puritan Buddhists. The approach may be different (arguable) but the result is the same. "
......... Last week I spent three days on a jury in a capital murder case. On the final day of the trial one of our fellow jurors distributed to all of us a small pamphlet with the words Someday Soon You Will Stand Before God emblazoned on the front.He said that he wanted to make sure he met us all again in heaven. I've never been handed a pamphlet with the words Someday You Will Stand Before Buddha on it. My understanding of Buddhist morality is that if something is beneficial for oneself and others then it is good, while if something is harmful to oneself and others then it is bad with the understanding that because of interconnectedness one's self  and others are really one.This obviously requires us to use our brains at times to figure out what is right or wrong. With a god centered religion morality is whatever that particular god decides it is at that particular moment.
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Reply from gebhart099
Feb.18.2007
10:13AM EDT 
Email gebhart099
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "The concept of Buddha serves the same purpose, "functions as a final authority" for pious, puritan Buddhists. The approach may be different (arguable) but the result is the same. "
......... Last week I spent three days on a jury in a capital murder case. On the final day of the trial one of our fellow jurors distributed to all of us a small pamphlet with the words Someday Soon You Will Stand Before God emblazoned on the front.He said that he wanted to make sure he met us all again in heaven. I've never been handed a pamphlet with the words Someday You Will Stand Before Buddha on it. My understanding of Buddhist morality is that if something is beneficial for oneself and others then it is good, while if something is harmful to oneself and others then it is bad with the understanding that because of interconnectedness one's self  and others are really one.This obviously requires us to use our brains at times to figure out what is right or wrong. With a god centered religion morality is whatever that particular god decides it is at that particular moment.
"
......... For example, if in the Biblical story in which Abraham is commanded to sacrifice his son Isaac  God had not stopped Abraham at the last moment and Abraham had killed Isaac then that would have been right. If I had written that story I would have written it differently.  I would have had Abraham refusing at the last moment telling God to do to him whatever he would but that he would not murder his own son. And then I would have had God tell him that he had passed the test for his selfless act in being willing to accept punishment for not killing Isaac.
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Reply from ______
Feb.18.2007
10:36AM EDT 
vertical line So you have never been handed a pamphlet with the words, "Someday you will stand before Buddha on it". So what? Does that make you feel more knowing, superior, better than the poor deluded guy with the pamphlet babbling on about heaven to you?

Worrying about selective and narrow interpretations of what you call, "god-centred religion" doesn't really help anyone, so I would presume that for you that's bad. As far as your re-writing of OT stories goes, well they are just that, stories, histories, written by people. Some particular so-called Christians like to bang on about them a lot. Puritan pious Buddhists punch sutras and formulae.
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Reply from ______
Feb.18.2007
11:04AM EDT 
vertical line There's a fire awaiting my match.

Oh, and why do you sit on a jury in a capital murder case?
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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.18.2007
11:46AM EDT 
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vertical line A light snow is falling, the wood is split and stacked for another week.
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Reply from lehish
Feb.18.2007
12:22PM EDT 
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Quote: "Someone says, "no one knows" - first and second doesn't matter - it doesn't matter that no one knows, so you objectify it. "
.........

hehehe...if that's the case then you just did

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Reply from ______
Feb.18.2007
12:31PM EDT 
vertical line Did what? Be last?
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Reply from lehish
Feb.18.2007
12:33PM EDT 
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Quote: "A light snow is falling, the wood is split and stacked for another week. "
.........

sunning
morning glows
musicing 'ectasy on the road'
marios

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Reply from Lionel
Feb.18.2007
05:07PM EDT 
Email Lionel
vertical line ...suppose there is a 'god' & of course there must be such a ' person' called either 'you' 'me' or 'him' in the first place... and therefore you me or him knows god & most of us if not all can talk & describe this & that etc etc etc about god, BUT does god knows & understands either you me or him, does he or she or it keep constant contact with us? If yes, what does he freshen up or update us, & if no, is she or he or it a non-self too & it is you me or him that make thing happenning in the mind? Similarily, to the so called universe, without you me & him, who called it as universe?
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Reply from Lionel
Feb.18.2007
05:25PM EDT 
Email Lionel
vertical line ...and who is this so called you me & him? How depth do we know/understand/realise its nature? Without knowing, understanding or realising the basic oursleves, how the hell we possibly know or talk about others? So at the end of the day, it must be having a " I " as self-existence in order to start with... then the moment you me or him realise its non-selfhoodness, we are at that instant feeling panic or scared...cos it is the opposite to our strong established view in our memory... may be oneday gradually you me or him may feel calmness & coolness... why bother who or which come first...?
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Reply from ______
Feb.18.2007
05:32PM EDT 
vertical line That's way complicated but we did ("called it") with dictionaries and words, God and the universe, and more. This is one of the ways in which we communicate and relate with each other. And highlights the problems associated with the practice of hanging words on that which is beyond words, of attempting to understand that which is beyond intellectual understanding. Why worry about objectifying it?
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Reply from Lionel
Feb.18.2007
05:33PM EDT 
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vertical line ...eat when you are hungry, sleep when you are tired, work when you are running short of food/cash & so forth & so forth...with wholesome mindful mind & its activties at all times...in daily normal living life...
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Reply from ______
Feb.18.2007
05:35PM EDT 
vertical line Ah ok, thanks for reminding me.
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Reply from bupanishad
Feb.18.2007
08:29PM EDT 
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B'Resheit bara Elohim . . .

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Reply from ______
Feb.19.2007
05:27AM EDT 
vertical line Persons sit on juries in capital murder cases because they are told to  by persons, in order to judge persons charged with murder.

Yep, objectification allows us to talk about IT.


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Reply from ______
Feb.19.2007
05:29AM EDT 
vertical line That's all wrong. It wasn't meant to be like that at all, my post.
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Reply from ______
Feb.19.2007
05:32AM EDT 
vertical line Hello? I only just woke up. haha No, not really.
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Reply from ______
Feb.19.2007
05:35AM EDT 
vertical line Murder of person or persons by person or persons known and / or unknown. Like a search for who you are. When all is revealed you see that you really aren't who you think you are.
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Reply from gebhart099
Feb.19.2007
09:16AM EDT 
Email gebhart099
vertical line Quote: "So you have never been handed a pamphlet with the words, "Someday you will stand before Buddha on it". So what? Does that make you feel more knowing, superior, better than the poor deluded guy with the pamphlet babbling on about heaven to you?

Worrying about selective and narrow interpretations of what you call, "god-centred religion" doesn't really help anyone, so I would presume that for you that's bad. As far as your re-writing of OT stories goes, well they are just that, stories, histories, written by people. Some particular so-called Christians like to bang on about them a lot. Puritan pious Buddhists punch sutras and formulae.
"
......... The fact that I've never been handed a pamphlet stating Someday You Will Stand Before Buddha  doesn't make me feel superior to anyone. It means that Buddha is not worshiped as a god forcing his notion of morality on us. I've never had any experience with any pious, puritan Buddhists such as you describe. The problem with dismissing the OT stories as just stories is that they are stories meant to make a point. In the story cited the point is that you have to submit your own notion of right or wrong to the will of god. My version (which I don't intend to write because I'm not a writer) is that we are responsible ourselves for figuring out what is right or wrong. In my version sacrificing Isaac would have meant failing the test.
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Reply from gebhart099
Feb.19.2007
09:28AM EDT 
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Quote: "There's a fire awaiting my match.

Oh, and why do you sit on a jury in a capital murder case?
"
.........I sat on the jury because I couldn't think of a legitimate excuse not to and I couldn't afford the 30 days jail time and/or fine a contempt of court citation for refusing. I was shocked and dismayed when out of some 80 odd potential jurors my name was called. A very depressing business. 

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Reply from gebhart099
Feb.19.2007
10:32AM EDT 
Email gebhart099
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "So you have never been handed a pamphlet with the words, "Someday you will stand before Buddha on it". So what? Does that make you feel more knowing, superior, better than the poor deluded guy with the pamphlet babbling on about heaven to you?

Worrying about selective and narrow interpretations of what you call, "god-centred religion" doesn't really help anyone, so I would presume that for you that's bad. As far as your re-writing of OT stories goes, well they are just that, stories, histories, written by people. Some particular so-called Christians like to bang on about them a lot. Puritan pious Buddhists punch sutras and formulae.
"
......... The fact that I've never been handed a pamphlet stating Someday You Will Stand Before Buddha  doesn't make me feel superior to anyone. It means that Buddha is not worshiped as a god forcing his notion of morality on us. I've never had any experience with any pious, puritan Buddhists such as you describe. The problem with dismissing the OT stories as just stories is that they are stories meant to make a point. In the story cited the point is that you have to submit your own notion of right or wrong to the will of god. My version (which I don't intend to write because I'm not a writer) is that we are responsible ourselves for figuring out what is right or wrong. In my version sacrificing Isaac would have meant failing the test.
"
......... And while you and I might agree that these are just stories many millions of Christians, Jews, and Muslims regard them as factual history except that in the Muslim version it is Ismail who is to be sacrificed not Isaac. What is the underlying principle of Judaic, Christian, Islamic morality? God decides what is right or wrong. What gives him that right? The fact that he is allmighty.  In other words might makes right. I don't mean that statement as religion bashing just as a contrast with my understanding of Buddhist morality as already expressed in a previous post. By the way, while I disagree with the man's religious views I do not look down on him as a "poor deluded guy." In fact he was quite sincere,intelligent, and personable. I am always willing to accept that other people have their reasons, perfectly valid to them, for believing as they do. This includes the Christians, Jews, and Muslims who believe those stories are factual history.
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Reply from bupanishad
Feb.19.2007
10:52AM EDT 
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Actually, this is a problem for Buddhists especially since they generally do not believe in creation per se.  If there was no beginning and will be no ending, as the Buddha apparently taught, then where does the "Big Bang" figure in?  I see Buddhism as the most scientific of philosophies/religions, but there are problems when dealing with physics and astrophysics.  I would like to see a Buddhist physicist answer these questions.

Andrew

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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.19.2007
01:08PM EDT 
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vertical line The question of the existence of God, does not have a beginning or ending, as question in the sense on one answer making it any more or less apparent or real within anyone's life. First, drop the name, or drop the misunderstanding of making God happen through a name, of the past.

Proper names themselves are assigned from external sources. Any one being can be described with many names, definitions that encapsulate that person's characteristics.

If you search for God in a name there will be no answer, only words, assigned authorities.

But if you search out silence, if you search out sadness in yourself,  you may find a beginning and ending in that. The beginning and ending of sadness comes from being disillusioned, and looking at things a whole new way, without the sadness, or the anger and disappointment whatever that may be, whatever makes that state seem solid. One has to look inside for the answer, it is between you and God alone.
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Reply from whatzen
Feb.19.2007
01:53PM EDT 
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Quote: "The question of the existence of God, does not have a beginning or ending, as question in the sense on one answer making it any more or less apparent or real within anyone's life. First, drop the name, or drop the misunderstanding of making God happen through a name, of the past.

Proper names themselves are assigned from external sources. Any one being can be described with many names, definitions that encapsulate that person's characteristics.

If you search for God in a name there will be no answer, only words, assigned authorities.

But if you search out silence, if you search out sadness in yourself,  you may find a beginning and ending in that. The beginning and ending of sadness comes from being disillusioned, and looking at things a whole new way, without the sadness, or the anger and disappointment whatever that may be, whatever makes that state seem solid. One has to look inside for the answer, it is between you and God alone.
"
.........

Well said. That is truth.

On a lighter note---"which came first? the spigot or the keg?"

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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.19.2007
02:11PM EDT 
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vertical line On work days, I fast and pray, God comes first in what I don't say.
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Reply from Lynnoh
Feb.19.2007
07:41PM EDT 
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Quote: "Is it riding a skateboard?  Or was that before he was a chicken? "
.........

hahahaha

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Reply from boymonk
Feb.19.2007
07:47PM EDT 
vertical line Maybe in another 50 posts I'll get the joke too.
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Reply from ______
Feb.20.2007
06:15AM EDT 
vertical line I am not responsible for the "many millions of Christians, Jews and Muslims" interpretations of scripture.

Xt: Before Abraham was, I am.
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Reply from ZenTurtle
Feb.20.2007
09:07AM EDT 
vertical line "Actually, this is a problem for Buddhists especially since they generally do not believe in creation per se. If there was no beginning and will be no ending, as the Buddha apparently taught, then where does the "Big Bang" figure in? I see Buddhism as the most scientific of philosophies/religions, but there are problems when dealing with physics and astrophysics. I would like to see a Buddhist physicist answer these questions.

Andrew"



Have you read The Tao of Physics?
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Reply from ______
Feb.20.2007
10:30AM EDT 
vertical line The uncreated God and the created God are One - Dance of Shiva.
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Reply from Lynnoh
Feb.20.2007
12:07PM EDT 
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Quote: "Maybe in another 50 posts I'll get the joke too."
.........

hee hee... no just this one

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Reply from fatnhappy
Feb.20.2007
03:14PM EDT 
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vertical line Quote: "in the beginning everything was exactly like now"
.........Nope
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Reply from fatnhappy
Feb.20.2007
03:15PM EDT 
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vertical line Quote: "In the beginning was the male. "
.........What ?
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Reply from fatnhappy
Feb.20.2007
03:23PM EDT 
Email fatnhappy
vertical line Quote: "ok, fnh:

..."struggling with the concept of what God is".
Easy - don't struggle with concepts.

..."hard to put a realism or paint a picture of what God is."
Excellent. Don't try.

..."confused about where the idea of an ... all knowing being came from."
Same place all ideas come from.

..."which came first God or the Universe?"
Suddenly you aren't talking concepts.
Listen to that question and live it.
"
......... thanx Rustic >
My point is i dont know . so many people speak of God . Say they love it and usually they say him but why would God be male ? So Im really trying to learn what so many try to unlearn, I think its good to understand first hand something than to look through the window at it .. you cannot peel the potato with out peeling it. I can meditate all day but i feel like its a waist of life and is non productive when my intentions are good . maybe someday i would bring a smile to your face and my life would have been worth living .
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Reply from fatnhappy
Feb.20.2007
03:28PM EDT 
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vertical line Quote: "A light snow is falling, the wood is split and stacked for another week. "
........exactly!
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Reply from lehish
Feb.20.2007
03:46PM EDT 
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Quote: "Quote: "  So Im really trying to learn what so many try to unlearn, I think its good to understand first hand something than to look through the window at it .. you cannot peel the potato with out peeling it. I can meditate all day but i feel like its a waist of life and is non productive when my intentions are good . maybe someday i would bring a smile to your face and my life would have been worth living .
"
.........

glugshgob

;)

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Reply from ______
Feb.20.2007
03:48PM EDT 
vertical line fnh, No need to try to understand, living in the question is enough - silence is an orchard when it isn't raining.
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Reply from ______
Feb.20.2007
03:52PM EDT 
vertical line Oh-oh, it's raining.
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Reply from gebhart099
Feb.23.2007
06:51AM EDT 
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Quote: "I am not responsible for the "many millions of Christians, Jews and Muslims" interpretations of scripture.

Xt: Before Abraham was, I am.
"
......... Agreed. And I'm not rresponsible for the pious, puritan Buddhists you refer to.

I?

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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.23.2007
07:10AM EDT 
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vertical line I don't even like chocolate. Until after my coffee, then it's ok I guess.
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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.23.2007
07:51AM EDT 
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vertical line Orange morning sunlight on the frosty trees, pale blue morning sky. Icy snow though.
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Reply from lehish
Feb.23.2007
08:19AM EDT 
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Quote: "I don't even like chocolate. Until after my coffee, then it's ok I guess. "
.........

hahahahahahahaaaa

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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.23.2007
10:15AM EDT 
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vertical line The is a Sun!

I'm no doubter.
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Reply from fatnhappy
Feb.23.2007
03:37PM EDT 
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vertical line steamingbowloftofustirfrywithcurry!
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Reply from amylim
Feb.23.2007
10:37PM EDT 
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  • A Zen master had a faithful but very naive student who regard him as a living Buddha. One day the master accidently sat down on a needle. He screamed "Ouch" and jumped into the air.
  • The student instantly lost all his faith and left, saying how disappointed he was to find that his master was not fully enlightened.  Otherwise, he thought, how could he jump up and scream out loud like that?
  • The master was sad when he realised his student had left, and said:"Alas, poor man! If only he had known that in reality neither I, nor the needle, nor the "ouch" really existed."
  • Man's first duty is to work out his own salvation from himself, god and the universe.So don't waste time speculating.
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Reply from Lynnoh
Feb.26.2007
02:00PM EDT 
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speculating on what?

rocks?

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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.26.2007
02:07PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Tragedy has no favorites.
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Reply from ZenTurtle
Feb.26.2007
05:15PM EDT 
vertical line I dunno, I find trajedy has an ironic side.
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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.26.2007
06:09PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line There isn't a side that tragedy doesn't have... a bitter irony in that it can lead one out of birth and death, if one comes to understand it's purpose, but can lead one further into despair if it is not seen as transient as decay. One's life force still rises out of tragedy as in any ending..
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Reply from Lynnoh
Feb.27.2007
02:53PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line ..
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Reply from amylim
Feb.28.2007
11:12AM EDT 
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Quote: "There isn't a side that tragedy doesn't have... a bitter irony in that it can lead one out of birth and death, if one comes to understand it's purpose, but can lead one further into despair if it is not seen as transient as decay. One's life force still rises out of tragedy as in any ending.. "
.........

When One  Observed Dharma Such Mind Abide Nowhere.

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Reply from amylim
Feb.28.2007
11:38AM EDT 
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Quote: "I dunno, I find trajedy has an ironic side."
.........

Zen Enlights Nothing     True Understanding  Requires Total  Lost Ego

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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.28.2007
11:55AM EDT 
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vertical line I want my MTV back! Mountain Terrain Vehicle.
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Reply from amylim
Feb.28.2007
11:58AM EDT 
Email amylim
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Quote: ".."
.........

Listening You  Need Notion OHearing

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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.28.2007
12:19PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "There isn't a side that tragedy doesn't have... a bitter irony in that it can lead one out of birth and death, if one comes to understand it's purpose, but can lead one further into despair if it is not seen as transient as decay. One's life force still rises out of tragedy as in any ending.. "
.........

When One  Observed Dharma Such Mind Abide Nowhere.

"
.........

Is that good?
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Reply from Lynnoh
Feb.28.2007
05:28PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: ".."
.........

Listening You  Need Notion OHearing

"
.........

"
.........

i do?

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Reply from amylim
Feb.28.2007
10:41PM EDT 
Email amylim
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "There isn't a side that tragedy doesn't have... a bitter irony in that it can lead one out of birth and death, if one comes to understand it's purpose, but can lead one further into despair if it is not seen as transient as decay. One's life force still rises out of tragedy as in any ending.. "
.........

When One  Observed Dharma Such Mind Abide Nowhere.

"
.........

Is that good?
"

"
.........

Is that good?
"

Wise Ones Overcome  Delusions  So Mind Attains Nirvana
.........

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Reply from amylim
Feb.28.2007
10:46PM EDT 
Email amylim
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: ".."
.........

Listening You  Need Notion OHearing

"
.........

"
.........

i do?

"
.........

"
.........

SIT

Suchness Is Thusness

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Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.01.2007
01:10PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: ".."
.........

Listening You  Need Notion OHearing

"
.........

"
.........

i do?

"
.........

"
.........

SIT

Suchness Is Thusness

"
.........

"
.........

"woof!"

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Reply from amylim
Mar.02.2007
11:10AM EDT 
Email amylim
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: ".."
.........

Listening You  Need Notion OHearing

"
.........

"
.........

i do?

"
.........

"
.........

SIT

Suchness Is Thusness

"
.........

"
.........

"woof!"

"
.........

"
.........

With Ocean OFeelings

Metta -Loving Kindness

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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.02.2007
02:08PM EDT 
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vertical line I am in the snow falling.
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Reply from whatzen
Mar.02.2007
02:12PM EDT 
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the

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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.02.2007
02:15PM EDT 
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vertical line Star casts shadow under bush, saves a light from crying in the wilderness.
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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.02.2007
02:19PM EDT 
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vertical line Feed the birds through dark sunglasses, the dogs bark at my new look, if I would wear them outside too.
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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.02.2007
02:29PM EDT 
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vertical line Took care of someone who knows me as a friendly nurse, that will stay with him in fear and pain, who enjoys his company, the dying man, I watch him breathe deeper, calmer while asleep... shallower, faster when he wakes. Awake he is miserable, asleep he is calm. When he is miserable I am miserable I am looking for ways to calm him, when he is calm I am looking for ways to calm myself.

I look out the windows a lot, sometimes I see colors that aren't there, so I convince myself that the illusion is better this way. The snow is not white like a cloud on paper. The brother is not sick as sickness is no stranger.  
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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.02.2007
02:32PM EDT 
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the female staff, wanted me, to commune with, but I had found my match, glowing in a sick man's room

"
.........
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Reply from amylim
Mar.02.2007
08:24PM EDT 
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the female staff, wanted me, to commune with, but I had found my match, glowing in a sick man's room

"
......... "
.........

"
.........
"
.........

Wilderness One Overcome Detach Sorrow Mental Agony 4-Noble Truths

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Reply from boymonk
Mar.02.2007
08:48PM EDT 
vertical line I'm going with the lil chickadees now, just because of the cuteness.
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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.02.2007
08:52PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line It is impossible to go where they are all not.
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Reply from boymonk
Mar.02.2007
10:16PM EDT 
vertical line Tell that to the egg.
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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.02.2007
10:41PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line She just gave birth to you, hope you enjoy as much of it as she did.
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Reply from amylim
Mar.03.2007
12:09AM EDT 
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Quote: "She just gave birth to you, hope you enjoy as much of it as she did. "
.........

Wonderful Overcoming One's Delusion Samadhi  Mind Attains Nibbanic-bliss

(which is uncreated.)

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Reply from boymonk
Mar.03.2007
04:46AM EDT 
vertical line Lighten up, Kelv, it's almost spring. :)
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Reply from ______
Mar.03.2007
05:50AM EDT 
vertical line boing boing bird boing chick tweet tweet cheep......Good morning, good morning.
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Reply from ______
Mar.03.2007
09:58AM EDT 
vertical line Hey look at this and that, flying already flying.
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Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.03.2007
02:26PM EDT 
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Quote: "In the beginning was the male. "
.........

and who delivered it?

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Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.03.2007
02:30PM EDT 
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vertical line hmmmm
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Reply from amylim
Mar.04.2007
01:32AM EDT 
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Quote: "Lighten up, Kelv, it's almost spring. :)"
.........

Blessed One Yoke Mind ONoble-Truths' Knowledge

of Suffering, the origin of Suffering, the extinction of Suffering and the Path leading to the extinction of Suffering.

May all living beings come to know, practices and benefit from the Sublime Dharma.

May all share the merits of this Dharma-giving and attain wisdom that can liberate from all suffering.

With metta.

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Reply from ______
Mar.04.2007
06:52AM EDT 
vertical line Of all mental activity, and of all thoughts that arise in the mind, the I-thought is the first. After this thought, other thoughts arise - second and third personal pronouns. Push from exterior to the mind inward and interior pull to self and so abide in silence. One who sees no difference between oneself and others, is free of the idea that he/she is enlightened and others are not.
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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.04.2007
08:14AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "In the beginning was the male. "
.........

and who delivered it?

"
.........

Me.
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Reply from amylim
Mar.04.2007
09:33PM EDT 
Email amylim
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Quote: "Of all mental activity, and of all thoughts that arise in the mind, the I-thought is the first. After this thought, other thoughts arise - second and third personal pronouns. Push from exterior to the mind inward and interior pull to self and so abide in silence. One who sees no difference between oneself and others, is free of the idea that he/she is enlightened and others are not. "
.........

Well said.  Right  Understanding, Speech, Thoughts, "I"?,  Concentration together with Action, Livelihood, Effort and Mindfulness are Noble Eightfold Path.

"I"nquiry - Enlightenment itself has no abode, as it is pure and void, so is mind has no origin, no abode, void and calm.

Thoughts do not bind us - only believing in them binds us.

With Metta

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Reply from lehish
Mar.04.2007
09:58PM EDT 
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Authority is evil. Authority destroys, authority perverts, authority corrupts. The follower destroys the master, as the master destroys the follower.

J Krishnamurti

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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.04.2007
10:19PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Ok, so I'm stupid.
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Reply from lehish
Mar.04.2007
10:29PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line hehehehehe
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Reply from boymonk
Mar.04.2007
10:44PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Thoughts do not bind us - only believing in them binds us.


With Metta


"
.........


Do you believe that? Tehehehehehehe... hehehe.. hehe. huh hu h
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Reply from lehish
Mar.04.2007
10:55PM EDT 
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hehe

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Reply from amylim
Mar.05.2007
01:49AM EDT 
Email amylim
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Thoughts do not bind us - only believing in them binds us.


With Metta


"
.........


Do you believe that? Tehehehehehehe... hehehe.. hehe. huh hu h"
.........

"
.........


Do you believe that? Tehehehehehehe... hehehe.. hehe. huh hu h
"
.........

By Opening-up Yields Many Opportunities Need Knowing

If there is acceptance or rejection, all kinds of  thoughts would be created.

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Reply from lehish
Mar.05.2007
03:15AM EDT 
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If there is acceptance or rejection, all kinds of  thoughts would be created.

"
.........

imagining someone/noone accepting/rejecting

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Reply from amylim
Mar.05.2007
04:39AM EDT 
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Quote: "Ok, so I'm stupid. "
.........

Without Our Own Direct Seeking   Mind Awakens  Not

Your are not  Ab-normal.

With Metta

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Reply from amylim
Mar.05.2007
09:14AM EDT 
Email amylim
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

If there is acceptance or rejection, all kinds of  thoughts would be created.

"
.........

imagining someone/noone accepting/rejecting

"
.........

"
.........

Life's Experiences Help Individual See Hope

With Metta

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Reply from boymonk
Mar.05.2007
10:57AM EDT 
vertical line Yeah, I've met Abby Normal and she's not her.
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