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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: LESS WE FORGET.
vertical line Posted on Feb.16.2007 @ 07:49AM EDT by stephen

"Four Noble Truths".

  1. Suffering: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.

  2. The origin of suffering: The craving which leads to renewed existence (reincarnation).

  3. The cessation of suffering: The cessation of craving.

  4. The way leading to the cessation of suffering: The Noble Eightfold Path;


Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email stephen
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Reply from -----0
Feb.16.2007
08:52AM EDT 
vertical line How do you explain that sometimes we don't suffer, regardless of the Path?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 68725
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Reply from stephen
Feb.16.2007
09:12AM EDT 
Email stephen
vertical line When do you not suffer?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 68730
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Reply from -----0
Feb.16.2007
12:30PM EDT 
vertical line now
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 68732
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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.16.2007
01:16PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line When suffering is not seen as suffering, you have reached Nirvana.
Look at everything change, and hold on to a promise.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 68734
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Reply from Avisitor
Jun.13.2012
02:41PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line The four noble truths.

Again, I am lost on this very path others follow and have well tread
Ahh, the path is obscured
Do I take the right fork or the left fork??

Please don't laugh at me.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 138789
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Reply from frozenaomi
Jun.13.2012
03:00PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line http://srivathsan-margan.blogspot.com/2010/03/10-bulls-by-kakuan.html

I don't know about well worn paths though. How can you walk another's path? You are not them.

A variation on a theme. You meet the Buddha on the road. You chat with him, share tea, catch a show. A good time is had by all and you walk each other home. But at some point the path must split. The Buddha has his own home and you have your own home. Sure you could invite yourself over to the Buddha's house, but there you will never be anything more than a visitor, while, meanwhile your own home is left untended and falling into disrepair.

I'm sorry. I'm not a Buddhist. I'm sure there is a nuance I'm missing here.
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Reply from nibble
Jun.13.2012
04:08PM EDT 
vertical line There is this Norwegian dude named Arne Naess that wrote this book called Livsfilosofi, in it there is a sentence that kinda expressed his attitude to life.

"Det er ikke hvordan du har det, men hvordan du tar det."

Word by word translation would equate to "It is not how you have it, but how you take it."

"have it" meaning you're general life situation/circumstances/how you feel about things.
I really like that attitude, like, it is not about what is, but about how you relate to.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 138794
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Reply from frozenaomi
Jun.13.2012
04:32PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line I'm sorry Nibble.  I have should have credited you with that link.  The link was Nibbles from here:  http://www.zenguide.com/forum/view.cfm?topicid=8074
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 138795
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Reply from Avisitor
Jun.13.2012
04:59PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "http://srivathsan-margan.blogspot.com/2010/03/10-bulls-by-kakuan.html

I don't know about well worn paths though. How can you walk another's path? You are not them.

A variation on a theme. You meet the Buddha on the road. You chat with him, share tea, catch a show. A good time is had by all and you walk each other home. But at some point the path must split. The Buddha has his own home and you have your own home. Sure you could invite yourself over to the Buddha's house, but there you will never be anything more than a visitor, while, meanwhile your own home is left untended and falling into disrepair.

I'm sorry. I'm not a Buddhist. I'm sure there is a nuance I'm missing here.
"
.........

The path you travel is not unique in that the path is known
What is unique in yourself.

What if Buddha lived next door to me?? Then our paths would not have to diverge.
And, I an nothing more than "avisitor".
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 138796
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Reply from frozenaomi
Jun.13.2012
05:41PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line />What if Buddha lived next door to me?? Then our paths would not have to diverge.
And, I an nothing more than "avisitor".
"
.........

But they would. You to your door he or she to theirs. Even if you rented a room in the Buddha's house, even if you and the Buddha were conjoined twins at some point the space becomes either yours or theirs. Even a sidewalk in New York or Tokyo is only ever walked once. Everyone walks in their own time rate and pattern and therefore they each meet slightly different variations of reality. I look at it from a quantum perspective but break it up. Different things happen in the sidewalk right? Shops come nag go parades rumble and are passed sidewalks change through time. And then somethings take a long time. A single lead to fall, a single shoot to grow we move down too fast to see or too slow to catch up. And we are always weaving. We stumble we dodge people we avoid obstacles so our angle of sight or perception is always in flux. Your path is yours alone. No one can ever treed it or see it in quite the same way as you, and you cannot see it in quite the same way as another.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 138797
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Reply from Avisitor
Jun.13.2012
07:18PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: " />What if Buddha lived next door to me?? Then our paths would not have to diverge.
And, I am nothing more than "avisitor".
"
.........

But they would. You to your door he or she to theirs. Even if you rented a room in the Buddha's house, even if you and the Buddha were conjoined twins at some point the space becomes either yours or theirs. Even a sidewalk in New York or Tokyo is only ever walked once. Everyone walks in their own time rate and pattern and therefore they each meet slightly different variations of reality. I look at it from a quantum perspective but break it up. Different things happen in the sidewalk right? Shops come nag go parades rumble and are passed sidewalks change through time. And then somethings take a long time. A single lead to fall, a single shoot to grow we move down too fast to see or too slow to catch up. And we are always weaving. We stumble we dodge people we avoid obstacles so our angle of sight or perception is always in flux. Your path is yours alone. No one can ever treed it or see it in quite the same way as you, and you cannot see it in quite the same way as another."
.........

Quantum Mechanics aside ...
This is analogous to the question ...
Can you step into a river twice in the same place??

If reality can not be shared then can it be called reality??
You are very smart but you tend to complicate things
If you are on the eightfold path then all you need is practice and a teacher.
Sharing with others along the path will help instill a sense of camaraderie to continue practice and move forward.

The path is well known otherwise what would be the sense of traveling it ...
especially if you don't know where it will eventually lead??
Only you are unique in the the equation ... otherwise the equation is the same for all people. You are the variable.

Sorry, my child is calling me ... gotta go
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Reply from nibble
Jun.13.2012
10:15PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "I'm sorry Nibble.  I have should have credited you with that link.  The link was Nibbles from here:  http://www.zenguide.com/forum/view.cfm?topicid=8074 "
.........
Yeah, U better be! That was totally my link! U almost got away with it since I seldom bother with url addresses that are not easy clickable and would never noticed if you had not ratted on yourself you sneaky thief!

So, if you are going to apologise for something that matter, pleease notice that there is a very nice tool in your post editor for managing hyperlinks!!:0)

Since you are not alone in such lamer behavior, I`ve decided to make:


Nibbles Famous and very long planned Crash course in hyper linking at zernguide.com!


First check that you are alive, you`re computer is on and that you have an internet connection and are logged in at zenguide.com. Then:

1. check if you have these tools available in your forum editor



if not, then it is because you have not enabled rich text option in your profile, fix like this:

a) click PROFILE  to access the Registration form


b) mark YES on Rich Text Option and click the UPDATE button at the bottom.


2. Copy/find some url


Then go to the post editor- place cursor where you want the link to appear OR mark some existing text u want to make link of and Click the hyperlink tool


3. Write/paste the url in the "Address:" field and the link text in the "link text:" field.
If you selected text prior to clicking the hyperlink tool then the link text will contain this text, if you selected nothing it will be empty like done here (quickest way is to just paste the url in both fields)



4. REMOVE any http:// from your url address (or the link will not work!)


5. Then just ignore the two other fields and Click ok done!


(Feel free to use copy and spread around(for god's sake:)) pictures and text as you like and even take credit for it now that You have happened to find this post (finders keepers!:) Especially if you also are the one totally responsible for the very creation of this post.)

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 138800
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Reply from nibble
Jun.13.2012
10:16PM EDT 
vertical line Proper Link
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 138802
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Reply from frozenaomi
Jun.13.2012
11:00PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line Yeay! Awesome nibble thank you. Is there any way we can sticky that?

Aww. It appears I can't do it from my iPad, I'll try it from my laptop in a minute.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 138803
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Reply from frozenaomi
Jun.13.2012
11:25PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line I'm Sorry Nibble!

did it work?
(y)(n)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 138804
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Reply from frozenaomi
Jun.14.2012
01:51AM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line Quote: "Proper Link "
.........

I like arcade fire but not as much as snow patrol or the fray yet they all three go together in my brain.  They star prominent in my cloudy day playlist on my shuffle. 

Sorry.  I'll stop playing now. 
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Reply from starduster
Jun.14.2012
04:19AM EDT 
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Quote: "Quote: " />What if Buddha lived next door to me?? Then our paths would not have to diverge.
And, I am nothing more than "avisitor".
"
.........

But they would. You to your door he or she to theirs. Even if you rented a room in the Buddha's house, even if you and the Buddha were conjoined twins at some point the space becomes either yours or theirs. Even a sidewalk in New York or Tokyo is only ever walked once. Everyone walks in their own time rate and pattern and therefore they each meet slightly different variations of reality. I look at it from a quantum perspective but break it up. Different things happen in the sidewalk right? Shops come nag go parades rumble and are passed sidewalks change through time. And then somethings take a long time. A single lead to fall, a single shoot to grow we move down too fast to see or too slow to catch up. And we are always weaving. We stumble we dodge people we avoid obstacles so our angle of sight or perception is always in flux. Your path is yours alone. No one can ever treed it or see it in quite the same way as you, and you cannot see it in quite the same way as another."
.........

Quantum Mechanics aside ...
This is analogous to the question ...
Can you step into a river twice in the same place??

If reality can not be shared then can it be called reality??
You are very smart but you tend to complicate things
If you are on the eightfold path then all you need is practice and a teacher.
Sharing with others along the path will help instill a sense of camaraderie to continue practice and move forward.

The path is well known otherwise what would be the sense of traveling it ...
especially if you don't know where it will eventually lead??
Only you are unique in the the equation ... otherwise the equation is the same for all people. You are the variable.

Sorry, my child is calling me ... gotta go
"
.........

We are all on our own path.  We are all alone.  The purpose of creation is to create the illusion that we are not alone. 

That we are able as individuals to forget who we really are and live individual lives is delusion.

If you can understand this then you are not deluded, and you know you are living in an illusion, and why. 

Then you can enjoy it.

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Reply from Avisitor
Jun.14.2012
10:30AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "We are all on our own path.  We are all alone.  The purpose of creation is to create the illusion that we are not alone. 

That we are able as individuals to forget who we really are and live individual lives is delusion.

If you can understand this then you are not deluded, and you know you are living in an illusion, and why. 

Then you can enjoy it.

"
.........

The path is the same ... only the sights we each see are different cause we are different. And, I never said each doesn't travel alone.

When at the end of the night, Buddha travels west and I travel east, ...
We are both going home. The homes may look different but the feelings are the same.

If you want to talk about illusions then we must face the ones we set up ourselves to continue along this path. I know of what you talk about. It is just not my time to experience such things.

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Reply from nibble
Jun.14.2012
04:37PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "I'm Sorry Nibble!

did it work?
(y)(n)
"
.........
You like wozzy music then, heh? Like thisor a favourite of mine like this:) But I can not forgive you. See, you are at a zenforum, almost rude to apologise to someone here. There is nothing to forgive. (and no one to give forgiveness and no one to be forgiven yadda yadda emptiness bla bla etc.zz zzz)

That You found and posted a link I found and posted of someone that found someone else's work and copied that, that is more a flattering chain of events than rude imo.

Btw, me posting after your "stolen link" post was pure coincidental, at least to my conscious mind as my life is at times overfilled with synchronicities or whatnow woodsy calls it:)

Anyhow, your personal view is yours. Only you can know if you really stole my posting or just threw out some link that this nibbler dude posted earlier with no thought about it as I believe;)

(Not even tempted to write like a totally angry post of how insulting and hurtful I found your insinuation that I was even capable of becoming hurt or insulted:)

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Reply from frozenaomi
Jun.14.2012
10:58PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line </em>"<br />.........<br />You like wozzy music then, heh? Like <a target="_blank" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie-0hEReVfU">this</a>or a favourite of mine like <a target="_blank" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP0ngiMBnas">this</a>:) But I can not forgive you. See, you are at a zenforum, almost rude to apologise to someone here. There is nothing to forgive. <font size="1" style="font-style: italic;">(and no one to give forgiveness and no one to be forgiven yadda yadda emptiness bla bla etc.zz zzz)</font><br /><br />That You found and posted a link I found and posted of someone that found someone else's work and copied that, that is more a flattering chain of events than rude imo.<br /><br />Btw, me posting after your "stolen link" post was pure coincidental, at least to my conscious mind as my life is at times overfilled with synchronicities or whatnow woodsy calls it:)<br /><br />Anyhow, your personal view is yours. Only you can know if you really stole my posting or just threw out some link that this nibbler dude posted earlier with no thought about it as I believe;)

Aww.  I can't pick both?  Both is usually nearer the truth =^.^=

<br /><font size="1"><br />(Not even tempted to write like a totally angry post of how insulting and hurtful I found your insinuation that I was even capable of becoming hurt or insulted:) <br /></font><br /></em>"<br />.........

Yeay synchronicities =^.^=

**shrug**  I know.  But you know me by now.  My guilt reflex is a little...wired.  Besides, its the redditer in me.  Link Karma and all that.  It is a really good link, and I thought it fit in nicely where I put it, and it stands on its own.  But **shrug** I got it from you, whatever its pedigree ('sides its not like you can ever really track a link home).  But no.  I know you don't really care.  If I thought you did I wouldn't have used such a flippant gif. 

By Wozzy do you mean mod?  I think I've heard some hipster's use that word and mod is the best definition I could pull from urban dictionary.  **shrug** maybe.  I'm definitely an indie chick.  I like my sounds a little cleaner (less distortion) than most new mod, more on the anti-folk  side I guess, and I like bands that put out stronger lyrics.  I do like Placebo, usually their less synthed stuff, but Mandalay is new to me.  They seem pretty cool.  Very atmospheric and worth further digging.  Hmm you might like one of my favorites (she can also sing...and does occasionally).  You might also try this (more like placebo)

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Reply from nibble
Jun.16.2012
12:09AM EDT 
vertical line Hmmm.. Ingrid Michaelson sucked, Regina Spektor was boooring, Placebo is cool, but I have kinda out listened them in my youth.., they don`t do it for me the way they used too, don`t keep up in the grain of time like this or this. Idiot Pilot did not impress me too much either, not at first sight at least.

"Keep Shelly in Athens" sounded more likeable, and as some small golden nugget it goes right into my  S2 phone:) Likable, and there is at least one chick that I know that probably gonna dig it, fitting to play in the car with her.

She don't like the majority of my aggressive music collection and I must try to stumble around on my phone (Bluetooth) while driving as she is not to keen with messing around on a cryptic android phone with autorotate and lists that suddenly scroll insanely fast if not careful etc.
Most of my mp3 collection are filled with for her more "noisy stuff", often starting traitorously calm and nice before all Hell break loose:) Digg songs that start slow and builds itself up to some hysteric hardcore.

Anyway, amongst some of my favourites, bands that I actually can spell the the names of and are not sick of yet, are Deftones(reallylove those guys), Tool, Guano apes, Garbage, Chris Cornell, Nirvana, Biffy Clyro, NIN and probably many, many more.
Anyway, enough chitchat. Guess you copied text directly from the webpage and into the editor instead of using quote function or something? A good tip to you is to always "wash" text that are not written in the editor. If you copy directly from a webpage you get a lot of hidden html code and junk that you are unaware of in addition to text. Also if you copy text from ms office it will mess up font styles and generate an insane load of junk code in the background.
The way to "wash text" is to paste it into notepad then copy it from there to wherever you want it.
I like to write postings in my local WordPad, then I often copy it into ms word just to use the spellchecker (hate working in msword), and afterwards I always quickly copy it in and out of notepad before pasting it into an online editor. (I work somewhat much  with WebPages so this is routine for me)

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Reply from frozenaomi
Jun.16.2012
01:45AM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line vertical line     Hmmm.. Ingrid Michaelson sucked, Regina Spektor was boooring, Placebo is cool, but I have kinda out listened them in my youth.., they don`t do it for me the way they used too, don`t keep up in the grain of time like this or this. Idiot Pilot did not impress me too much either, not at first sight at least.

"Keep Shelly in Athens" sounded more likeable, and as some small golden nugget it goes right into my  S2 phone:) Likable, and there is at least one chick that I know that probably gonna dig it, fitting to play in the car with her.

She don't like the majority of my aggressive music collection and I must try to stumble around on my phone (Bluetooth) while driving as she is not to keen with messing around on a cryptic android phone with autorotate and lists that suddenly scroll insanely fast if not careful etc.
Most of my mp3 collection are filled with for her more "noisy stuff", often starting traitorously calm and nice before all Hell break loose:) Digg songs that start slow and builds itself up to some hysteric hardcore.

Anyway, amongst some of my favourites, bands that I actually can spell the the names of and are not sick of yet, are Deftones(reallylove those guys), Tool, Guano apes, Garbage, Chris Cornell, Nirvana, Biffy Clyro, NIN and probably many, many more.
Anyway, enough chitchat. Guess you copied text directly from the webpage and into the editor instead of using quote function or something? A good tip to you is to always "wash" text that are not written in the editor. If you copy directly from a webpage you get a lot of hidden html code and junk that you are unaware of in addition to text. Also if you copy text from ms office it will mess up font styles and generate an insane load of junk code in the background.
The way to "wash text" is to paste it into notepad then copy it from there to wherever you want it.
I like to write postings in my local WordPad, then I often copy it into ms word just to use the spellchecker (hate working in msword), and afterwards I always quickly copy it in and out of notepad before pasting it into an online editor. (I work somewhat much  with WebPages so this is routine for me)


Firefox's spell checker works pretty well for me.  **shrug**  Have you tried LibreOffice?  I've never tried to make a webpage with it, I wouldn't know where to start, but its more stripped down then microsoft, maybe it would suck less?  Yeah, I just used the quote and reply function.  its easy and lazy and I don't really mind the embedded code.  But i washed this throuhg gedit.  Which should work (my computer doesn't have notepad I don't think).  Let me know if I did it wrong?

I know some of those bands.  I knew the deftones, you still see their t-shirts and the doors a lot.  And I know tool, although a perfect circle (at least the first two albums) is much better.  If we're going that far back we aught to throw GodSmack in.  Serenity is still a good song.  Nirvana, of course.  And Nine Inch Nails and Korn although I have never heard any thing by either of them I liked.  The link for Guano Apes wouldn't work for me, but I looked them up here.  Eh they're really not my thing.  Garbage was better and the video was really funny.  I didn't know who Chris Cornell who was, but I know Audioslave and their major competitor.  Biffy was okay.  The drummer needs to sing more...and the lead less. 

As for Spektor and Michaelson lol there is a reason AF is underground.  Deep deep underground.  I like the simplicity and their refusal to take themselves too seriously but I dunno anyone els who actually likes them. 

**shrug** If you want exciting have you heard these?  Or similar although less fast there is Lacuna Coil and of course everyone knows Flyleaf

What kinds of websites do you design? 
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Jun.16.2012
07:45AM EDT 
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Hui-neng's essential statement is this: "From the beginning not a thing is. Seeing

into one's self-nature is seeing into emptyness

In kNOWING this, what is suffering???

Is the nature of the permanent impermanent realty that is, confused as being suffering?

Is nature now not nature?

How can the permanent impermanent continue infinately without that which caters for the impermanent impermantly?

Suffering is a disease.

A disease which caters.

Is the disease of suffering a noble truth? 

Would your experience of living be different if you experienced all things in life as nature rather than suffering?

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Reply from IZIZIZ
Jun.16.2012
07:53AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Hui-neng&apos;s essential statement is this: "From the beginning not a thing is. Seeing

into one&apos;s self-nature is seeing into emptyness

In kNOWING this, what is suffering???

Is the nature of the permanent impermanent realty that is, confused as being suffering?

Is nature now not nature?

How can the permanent impermanent continue infinately without that which caters for the impermanent impermantly?

Suffering is a disease.

A disease which caters.

Is the disease of suffering a noble truth? 

Would your experience of living be different if you experienced all things in life as nature rather than suffering?

"
.........

"
.........

How can the permanent impermanent continue infinately without that which caters for the impermanent  permanently?

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Reply from frozenaomi
Jun.16.2012
09:29AM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line Hui-neng's essential statement is this: "From the beginning not a thing is. Seeing

into one's self-nature is seeing into emptyness

In kNOWING this, what is suffering???

Is the nature of the permanent impermanent realty that is, confused as being suffering?

Is nature now not nature?

How can the permanent impermanent continue infinately without that which caters for the impermanent impermantly?

Suffering is a disease.

A disease which caters.

Is the disease of suffering a noble truth? 

Would your experience of living be different if you experienced all things in life as nature rather than suffering?


How can the permanent impermanent continue infinately without that which caters for the impermanent  permanently?


I'm having some trouble reading this. Can I ask a few questions? First, I read permanent impermanent as transient, something that can and must change. If I've miss-translated that this will all be wildly off base. Sorry for that. And I'm sort of afraid I have because it makes this not make a lot of sense. Why would the knowledge that everything will end cause suffering? People die. Civilizations die. Even the stars die. Impermanence is the way of nature. In nothing does permanence exist, why should we expect to find it in reality?

Moreover, the nature of nature is to bring things to an end. How can the fact that everything is impermanent be anything but a confirmation of the way of nature. Making nature supremely nature?

"How can the permanent impermanent continue infinately without that which caters for the impermanent  permanently?"
Simply then it can't. Nothing lasts infinitely. Even a void is defined by the space around it. Eventually there will come a time in which there is not time something or nothing. A nonexistence that English really doesn't have a word to describe nor the human mind the ability to comprehend save in abstracts. Yet that is the pattern of nature. Everything dies. Besides, what is there to do the catering? However, all this is just pattern recognition. The idea that what has come before models what is to come is reasonably reliable, but there are, of course, myriad exceptions and counter examples. Anything can happen in the future. Even permanence. I wouldn't bet on it, but I wouldn't be surprised by it either.

I suppose if this bothers you it could cause you to suffer, but this isn't the root cause of suffering. rather you suffer because you want it to be otherwise. You suffer because you want.
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Reply from nibble
Jun.17.2012
05:45AM EDT 
vertical line Guess what is needed is a better understanding of the pali term Dukkha as the term "Suffering" is rather nondescribing in some sort. Guess if one use "unsatisfactory" one would be closer to the mark?

Anyway, my deepest apologise to stephen and this tread on behalf of myself and naomi for getting totally off topic back there, sorry.. .


(I make DotNetNuke sites like these naomi and never heard of Flyleaf:) Quote & Reply works fine as long as you dont mess with anything above the stipled line, oh, dont reply to this anymore as it`s blatantly off-topic;))
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Reply from starduster
Jun.17.2012
06:09AM EDT 
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Quote: "Hui-neng&apos;s essential statement is this: "From the beginning not a thing is. Seeing

into one&apos;s self-nature is seeing into emptyness

In kNOWING this, what is suffering???

Is the nature of the permanent impermanent realty that is, confused as being suffering?

Is nature now not nature?

How can the permanent impermanent continue infinately without that which caters for the impermanent impermantly?

Suffering is a disease.

A disease which caters.

Is the disease of suffering a noble truth? 

Would your experience of living be different if you experienced all things in life as nature rather than suffering?


How can the permanent impermanent continue infinately without that which caters for the impermanent  permanently?


I&apos;m having some trouble reading this. Can I ask a few questions? First, I read permanent impermanent as transient, something that can and must change. If I&apos;ve miss-translated that this will all be wildly off base. Sorry for that. And I&apos;m sort of afraid I have because it makes this not make a lot of sense. Why would the knowledge that everything will end cause suffering? People die. Civilizations die. Even the stars die. Impermanence is the way of nature. In nothing does permanence exist, why should we expect to find it in reality?

Moreover, the nature of nature is to bring things to an end. How can the fact that everything is impermanent be anything but a confirmation of the way of nature. Making nature supremely nature?

"How can the permanent impermanent continue infinately without that which caters for the impermanent  permanently?"
Simply then it can&apos;t. Nothing lasts infinitely. Even a void is defined by the space around it. Eventually there will come a time in which there is not time something or nothing. A nonexistence that English really doesn&apos;t have a word to describe nor the human mind the ability to comprehend save in abstracts. Yet that is the pattern of nature. Everything dies. Besides, what is there to do the catering? However, all this is just pattern recognition. The idea that what has come before models what is to come is reasonably reliable, but there are, of course, myriad exceptions and counter examples. Anything can happen in the future. Even permanence. I wouldn&apos;t bet on it, but I wouldn&apos;t be surprised by it either.

I suppose if this bothers you it could cause you to suffer, but this isn&apos;t the root cause of suffering. rather you suffer because you want it to be otherwise. You suffer because you want.
"
.........

Impermanence is not even dependent on the life/death cycle either, from what Ive seen in my meditative visions.

I have been in the Void many times in my meditation over the years.  I cant swear what Ive seen is true, but seeing is believing and I believe it, at least for my own purposes.

From the perspective of what I have seen, everything is just One Thing, no matter how subdivided it may be considered to be, or how intrinsically analyzed.  You can focus on different parts of it all you want and its still all just One Thing.

Moverover, I have seen that this One Thing can be anything.  It just is at the moment what it happens to be at the moment, *Things as It is*.  Subject to change without notice. 

One of the novelties of the 60s were plexiglass plaques with bubble packs of LCD crystals attached to the back of them.  By swirling your finger on the LCD packs, myriad kalydoscopic like images could be seen through the plexiglass.  Really cool on psychodelic drugs, let me assure you.  And that same LCD material is what makes the monitor of the computer Im using work too, as well as my television at home.   

Analogously, the Void is sort of like that.  It can be just black nothingness, or myriad designs of light, or something sharply defined, yet variable, as a TV or monitor screen.

What is that which can be anything?  What is its nature?  What is its essence?

Nothing in particular.  Which is why I encourage people to open up to it, with internal silence, motionlessness, open heart and mind, and let it show itself to you in it own way.

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Reply from IZIZIZ
Jun.17.2012
06:44AM EDT 
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Quote: "Hui-neng&apos;s essential statement is this: "From the beginning not a thing is. Seeing

into one&apos;s self-nature is seeing into emptyness

In kNOWING this, what is suffering???

Is the nature of the permanent impermanent realty that is, confused as being suffering?

Is nature now not nature?

How can the permanent impermanent continue infinately without that which caters for the impermanent impermantly?

Suffering is a disease.

A disease which caters.

Is the disease of suffering a noble truth? 

Would your experience of living be different if you experienced all things in life as nature rather than suffering?


How can the permanent impermanent continue infinately without that which caters for the impermanent  permanently?


I&apos;m having some trouble reading this. Can I ask a few questions? First, I read permanent impermanent as transient, something that can and must change. If I&apos;ve miss-translated that this will all be wildly off base. Sorry for that. And I&apos;m sort of afraid I have because it makes this not make a lot of sense. Why would the knowledge that everything will end cause suffering? People die. Civilizations die. Even the stars die. Impermanence is the way of nature. In nothing does permanence exist, why should we expect to find it in reality?

Moreover, the nature of nature is to bring things to an end. How can the fact that everything is impermanent be anything but a confirmation of the way of nature. Making nature supremely nature?

"How can the permanent impermanent continue infinately without that which caters for the impermanent  permanently?"
Simply then it can&apos;t. Nothing lasts infinitely. Even a void is defined by the space around it. Eventually there will come a time in which there is not time something or nothing. A nonexistence that English really doesn&apos;t have a word to describe nor the human mind the ability to comprehend save in abstracts. Yet that is the pattern of nature. Everything dies. Besides, what is there to do the catering? However, all this is just pattern recognition. The idea that what has come before models what is to come is reasonably reliable, but there are, of course, myriad exceptions and counter examples. Anything can happen in the future. Even permanence. I wouldn&apos;t bet on it, but I wouldn&apos;t be surprised by it either.

I suppose if this bothers you it could cause you to suffer, but this isn&apos;t the root cause of suffering. rather you suffer because you want it to be otherwise. You suffer because you want.
"
.........

From the beginning, for the sake of calling any-thing a beginning, NOT A THING IS.

This is the only TRUTH, noble or otherwise.

Outside of that, unless you are a buddhist/religionist that needs truths and paths and hope, there is only reality.

Reality is a permanent impermanence with the nature of itself.

Knowing nature is freedom.

Believing in suffering is a disease experienced when nature does not know itself.

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Reply from starduster
Jun.18.2012
07:32AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Hui-neng&apos;s essential statement is this: "From the beginning not a thing is. Seeing

into one&apos;s self-nature is seeing into emptyness

In kNOWING this, what is suffering???

Is the nature of the permanent impermanent realty that is, confused as being suffering?

Is nature now not nature?

How can the permanent impermanent continue infinately without that which caters for the impermanent impermantly?

Suffering is a disease.

A disease which caters.

Is the disease of suffering a noble truth? 

Would your experience of living be different if you experienced all things in life as nature rather than suffering?


How can the permanent impermanent continue infinately without that which caters for the impermanent  permanently?


I&apos;m having some trouble reading this. Can I ask a few questions? First, I read permanent impermanent as transient, something that can and must change. If I&apos;ve miss-translated that this will all be wildly off base. Sorry for that. And I&apos;m sort of afraid I have because it makes this not make a lot of sense. Why would the knowledge that everything will end cause suffering? People die. Civilizations die. Even the stars die. Impermanence is the way of nature. In nothing does permanence exist, why should we expect to find it in reality?

Moreover, the nature of nature is to bring things to an end. How can the fact that everything is impermanent be anything but a confirmation of the way of nature. Making nature supremely nature?

"How can the permanent impermanent continue infinately without that which caters for the impermanent  permanently?"
Simply then it can&apos;t. Nothing lasts infinitely. Even a void is defined by the space around it. Eventually there will come a time in which there is not time something or nothing. A nonexistence that English really doesn&apos;t have a word to describe nor the human mind the ability to comprehend save in abstracts. Yet that is the pattern of nature. Everything dies. Besides, what is there to do the catering? However, all this is just pattern recognition. The idea that what has come before models what is to come is reasonably reliable, but there are, of course, myriad exceptions and counter examples. Anything can happen in the future. Even permanence. I wouldn&apos;t bet on it, but I wouldn&apos;t be surprised by it either.

I suppose if this bothers you it could cause you to suffer, but this isn&apos;t the root cause of suffering. rather you suffer because you want it to be otherwise. You suffer because you want.
"
.........

From the beginning, for the sake of calling any-thing a beginning, NOT A THING IS.

This is the only TRUTH, noble or otherwise.

Outside of that, unless you are a buddhist/religionist that needs truths and paths and hope, there is only reality.

Reality is a permanent impermanence with the nature of itself.

Knowing nature is freedom.

Believing in suffering is a disease experienced when nature does not know itself.

"
.........

"
.........

*nothingness*.

Yeah, so what else is new ?

But is nothingness really emptiness, or is that just another description of the indescribable?

Emptiness does not exist in nothingness any more than anything else.  To wit, not even that, not even nothing.

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