history principles practice stories, books, media discussion forum organizations resources
zenguide.com logo
 
Wednesday Apr 23 2014 05:44AM ET
º login º register º email º guestbook º printer friendly
grey dot
  One day when P'ang layman (740-808)was selling bamboo baskets at the market place of Hung-chou.
Seeing a monk begging alms, he took out a cash and said:
-Can you tell me how to appreciate alms?
The monk had nothing to say.
P'ang... continue...

z
.
e
.
n
menu left history menu spacer principles menu spacer practice menu spacer zen media menu spacer discussion forum menu spacer organization directory menu spacer resources  
login
  DISCUSSION FORUM
» topic list   » start a new topic   » my tracked topics   » view topic
grey dot

horizontal line
→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: COMMANDMENTS VS PRECEPTS
vertical line Posted on Feb.28.2007 @ 07:41AM EDT by stephen

“Buddhist precepts do/ have not represent a classic western style 'Ten Commandments' to the laity in general. It would be a distortion to equate the two. Overall, and to generalize, I'd say that guilt is not at all as big a thing in Eastern Buddhist traditions, and its certainly less confused with responsibility there.”

I would beg to differ as to how the Commandments and Precepts are the same. Paying attention to both sets of rules would limit your suffering based on human to human interaction. Both would calm the flow of your journey through time. Both sets of rules as stated do not include punishment (punishment always is defined afterward by bureaucrats). If one could look at these rules out of context they would seem to be happiness producers. MU

1. I undertake to abstain from harming living beings

2. I undertake to abstain from taking what is not given

3. I undertake to abstain from sexual misconduct

4. I undertake to abstain from false speech

5. I undertake to abstain from intoxicating drugs or drink


Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email stephen
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from HarryB
Feb.28.2007
07:58AM EDT 
vertical line I think we all know that, contextually, both The Commandments and the Buddhist precepts have represented largely a completely different experience for beings.

Consider the difference between "I undertake to..." and the Western traditional "Thou shalt not...". Consider also that the Big 10 are believed to be direct commands from Almighty God, not a model of common sense.

I'm not saying that the Ten Commandments don't have the potential to represent a sensible, *personal* modus operandi; but the present , and the history of, Western religious 'morality' is far from devoid of suffering. In fact, the fundamentalist morality that characterised a lot of Christendom  was the cause of untold suffering.

If we look at anything out of context are we really looking at it? Its looking at things out of context that creates the sort of ideology which causes our wonderfully persistent, and harmful, conflicts.

Regards,

Harry.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69137
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from -----0
Feb.28.2007
02:13PM EDT 
vertical line Commandments are based on a fundamental difference between the one that commands and the one that is supposed to obey. They can never be One.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69149
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from shayne
Feb.28.2007
07:32PM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line commandaments and precepts come from the self.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69164
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Feb.28.2007
07:47PM EDT 
vertical line I have a bible on the shelf, I keep it there to right myself.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69165
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Mar.01.2007
05:43AM EDT 
vertical line Worrying about words again? Commandments this time eh? Well, nothing but a fundamental misunderstanding of your motives and reasons. Simple really.

For all those worried about the words and concept "Almighty God', who becomes the all-powerless, all vulnerable, God with us, so you can become Us with God.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69173
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.01.2007
01:08PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line wow....this morning I was powerfully vulnerable...I don't like that feeling much
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69206
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from HarryB
Mar.01.2007
02:16PM EDT 
vertical line

Yes, words, just words; yet words have had such power over people... we've done all sorts of things justified by the words of this one or that one. Words are harmless are they? "Sticks and stones..." and all that, but we hardly all subscribe to that strain of sense.

"Just War"

Regards,

Harry.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69208
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Mar.01.2007
02:23PM EDT 
vertical line Words are bad. Words are good. Words destroy. Words create. Yes, I take responsibility for my words. Precision in word language is very ideal. Take care and watch and care for the words and you and me and don't worry.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69210
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from HarryB
Mar.01.2007
02:54PM EDT 
vertical line

Worry? I just like to look at things in terms of harm caused/ not caused. I hardly think that's worrying. In fact it could be quite 'rational' looked at in a certain light (for all that's worth).

Worry is possibly the most indugent way of sapping one's facilities to respond that I can imagine, so don't worry about my worrying.

Worrying is for cowards. The samurai (of which one I am certainly not) were many things: artists, Zen accomplists, murderers, hypocrites, psychopaths even in cases... but they weren't cowards. People, when it comes to truly confronting themselves and others, are generally cowards.

Regards,

Harry.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69215
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Mar.01.2007
03:00PM EDT 
vertical line How did you come to believe any of that? And what's a Zen accomplist? The meaning of cowardice is known only to one at a time and changes in accordance with the action.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69216
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from HarryB
Mar.01.2007
03:13PM EDT 
vertical line

1. I read it on cereal packets I seen in mystical visions.

2. A 'Zen Accomplist' is my own makey uppey on-the-spot term for someone who has realised what the Zen tradition points to.

A general point: I personally find meaning meaningless and hugely over rated. That's possibly why I have some affinity with a tradition that ultimately points beyond concepts and relative perceptions of 'meaning' to how things actually exist... at least my experience bears out that it is, at least, a little more objective.

Regards,

Harry.

 

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69220
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Mar.01.2007
03:38PM EDT 
vertical line Your meaningless explanation using words of meaning to convey the meaning of that which you mean to say.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69221
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Mar.01.2007
03:39PM EDT 
vertical line I mean, is that the meaning for the explanation of meaninglessness?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69222
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from HarryB
Mar.01.2007
03:42PM EDT 
vertical line

And thus we return to the Silly Game, although even a gerbal on a wheel gets some excercise and it knows where its wheel is and where it is not.

Pray continue (if its no harm).

Regards,

H.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69223
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Mar.01.2007
03:46PM EDT 
vertical line Oh ok. silly. No action. No meaning. In one, speaking, words and action are one, meaning. Thanks.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69224
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from HarryB
Mar.01.2007
03:54PM EDT 
vertical line

Please don't thank me for that, really.   :-)

If you do work out how to talk/ think your way into the kingdom of heaven then please do remember us here on the Zen list.

On the other hand, the earth isn't such a bad place once you disarm it.... BY ANY MEANS. HIIIIIIIIIIIIII-YAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!

More grumpy Zen masters, more slaps on the head and sticks on the legs for the likes of us I say.

Regards,

Harry.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69225
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Mar.01.2007
03:57PM EDT 
vertical line You could keep in touch with the source of your words and live what you say.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69226
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from HarryB
Mar.01.2007
04:09PM EDT 
vertical line

I think you'll probably find that you want me to do things other than I think or say.

Go off and be a 'Zen' sheep or other styled drone if that's what you admire, don't Lord it over the rest of us though- or do, if it seems appropriate to whatever holy book you're misinterpreting.

My words are worthless, I try to treat them as such, and don't make them 'harmful' unless I'm sure I know what I'm harming is as useless and as inhibitive as a tinfoil bathing suit . If you don't like the meaning you have on my words then the truly responsible thing  (and the most wise and sure-fire method) would be to consider what meaning you put on my words, and where the value of the meaning comes from (Hee hee hee...) or are you the sort of chap that lets yourSELF get fired up over a triffling cartoon of a prophet?

Regards,

Harry. 

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69227
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from whatzen
Mar.01.2007
04:14PM EDT 
Email whatzen
vertical line

Dont forget these from Jesus:

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." (NIV, Mark 12:28-31).

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69228
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Mar.01.2007
04:15PM EDT 
vertical line hmmm, yeah that's the point. Nobody completely does, do they?... live what we say even when we think we're in touch with the source of our words. Thanks anyway for the advice but 'sorts of chaps' aren't my thing either 'fired up' or not, stuck on sheep or not.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69229
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from HarryB
Mar.01.2007
05:01PM EDT 
vertical line

Hahahahaha... meaning/ ultimate/ relative/ me/ you/ us/jesus/ buddha/ commandments (old/ revised: your 'choice')...

What a crock of Blarney!

Oh, I'm a terrible chap, aren't I. For Christ's sake save yourself Hee hee hee. I'm going to slip of the cross of our minds and sit zazen. May everything bless you all, especially bulls**t, cartoons and other silly little wonders.

I came to a dream world, talked dream crap, and was thrown in a hole in the dream ground, unwittingly we make it a rather unintersting dream. I think I'll play a dream duduk. Does this make us 'bad people'? We're ALL bad people to somebody.

Regards,

Bad Buddhist Chap.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69230
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Mar.01.2007
05:23PM EDT 
vertical line How did you get there here, dreamholes in dreamgrounds? Cartoons? Bad chap? You think I'll probably find? hee hee hee? What does it all mean, this snapshot? Answers on a, um er, a, answers on, no answords...any questions?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69231
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Mar.01.2007
05:32PM EDT 
vertical line Oh Lord, who got the "holy book"? Who? Who got it? The bookseller?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69232
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Mar.01.2007
05:40PM EDT 
vertical line Ok, so, my brother ask, "Who do you say that I am?" Yep, he does, that's what he askinged.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69233
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from whatzen
Mar.01.2007
10:01PM EDT 
Email whatzen
vertical line Quote: "

Dont forget these from Jesus:

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." (NIV, Mark 12:28-31).

"
.........

"
.........

Merely pointing out that from a so called Christian angle Jesus sort of put aside the other commandments and recommended the tops on his list. As with any ancient text one has to read between the interpretations and mis-interpretations and socio/political slants. Try to imagine how he may have originally said it, and for that matter how Buddha may have uttered his truths. Myself, am not Christian, Buddhist or even Zennist. I prefer to continue to drop all the identifications. Advaita is more my liking, though without adopting any particular label or narrow view-point. Gratitude and respect for all true teachers but not in for worshipping any particular form or spiritual personage...too sticky that. Truth stands fine on its own.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69238
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Mar.02.2007
05:44AM EDT 
vertical line Yes, there are undertakers, and I am only merely a fool who recognises the seriousness of a joke when he sees and hears feeling one.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69251
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Mar.02.2007
03:55PM EDT 
vertical line musicbox 


vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69265
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from boymonk
Mar.02.2007
04:26PM EDT 
vertical line I've read the book of illusions, it was... austere.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69267
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Mar.02.2007
06:42PM EDT 
vertical line Writing to an old man, is like wronging to a young.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69269
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from boymonk
Mar.02.2007
07:26PM EDT 
vertical line A stitch in time saves nine... and potentially some em-bare-ass-ment.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69274
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Mar.02.2007
07:55PM EDT 
vertical line Nothing to save, is nothing to bear.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69276
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.03.2007
02:36PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line

Quote: "Your meaningless explanation using words of meaning to convey the meaning of that which you mean to say. "
.........

hhahaahhaaha

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69313
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.03.2007
02:37PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line

Quote: "Writing to an old man, is like wronging to a young. "
.........

oh ho!

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69314
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.03.2007
02:38PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line

Quote: "Nothing to save, is nothing to bear. "
.........

just hugs

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69315
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Mar.03.2007
05:05PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "I've read the book of illusions, it was... austere."
.........

ah...and did you play the musicbox? Do you like the variations?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69327
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.04.2007
02:32PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line

Quote: "Quote: "I've read the book of illusions, it was... austere."
.........

ah...and did you play the musicbox? Do you like the variations?
"
.........

hm, yes this morning with the granddaughter... what variations?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69343
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Mar.04.2007
02:56PM EDT 
vertical line Lynnoh, scroll up 9 posts and click musicbox.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69345
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Mar.05.2007
06:00AM EDT 
vertical line Well I like them - and musical variations, yes.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69358
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.05.2007
10:57AM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line

Quote: "Lynnoh, scroll up 9 posts and click musicbox."
.........

saw it on the way down, but then went up....oh yeah... the lights go like that too... very nice   :)

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69361
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Mar.05.2007
01:10PM EDT 
vertical line
Harmonisation in the pattern variations of Commandments & Precepts.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69366
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.06.2007
11:12AM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line :)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69377
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Mar.06.2007
11:01PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

commandments-precepts:

Student in the Highlands looking for summer work: "Got any odd jobs?"
Farmer: "Well, you could try milking the bull."

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69396
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.07.2007
10:53AM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line while sipping milk... "cows make milk" ... "no, mommys make milk"
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69408
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Mar.07.2007
12:41PM EDT 
vertical line mom maid
me drink
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69415
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Mar.07.2007
01:57PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

Quote: " "cows make milk" ... "no, mommys make milk""
.........

that stuff from reading word milk ?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69416
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Mar.07.2007
04:42PM EDT 
vertical line "precepts! precept!".... "precept", stuck on my tongue, but not in my mind... "precepts!"

doesn't sound unstuck to me... "precept!"

words that stick on the sound, but not, without mind
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69419
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Mar.07.2007
04:49PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: " "cows make milk" ... "no, mommys make milk""
.........

that stuff from reading word milk ?

"
.........

look, into my eyes
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69421
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.07.2007
05:16PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: " "cows make milk" ... "no, mommys make milk""
.........

that stuff from reading word milk ?

"
.........

"
.........

no from drinking and thinking

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69423
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.08.2007
02:45PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line if is from reading...was by you or before doing
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69452
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Mar.08.2007
03:36PM EDT 
vertical line Thank you for choosing zenguide.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69461
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Mar.08.2007
05:25PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

Quote: "if is from reading...was by you or before doing"
.........

hahaha

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69463
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Mar.09.2007
10:40PM EDT 
vertical line One more word, and the hair gets it!

Buzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 69511
horizontal line
 
Back To Topic List   Go to Top of Page

 



SUPPORT ZENGUIDE.COM
If you are planning on purchasing any product from amazon.com, you can help us out by using the search box to the right or by clicking on this link to begin shopping.


Purchase posters, art prints, media (music CD & DVD)

buy this MONASTERE DE KARSKA
by Olivier Follmi
Puchase this Item
More Art Prints & Media
Zen & Buddhism books
 
 
d
.
i
.
s
.
c
.
u
.
s
.
s
.
i
.
o
.
n
.

.
f
.
o
.
r
.
u
.
m
.
Copyright © 1999 - 2014 zenguide.com - All rights reserved. °