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  One day when P'ang layman (740-808)was selling bamboo baskets at the market place of Hung-chou.
Seeing a monk begging alms, he took out a cash and said:
-Can you tell me how to appreciate alms?
The monk had nothing to say.
P'ang... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: ENLIGHTENED
vertical line Posted on Mar.24.2007 @ 07:16AM EDT by Bezoomy

How can one be "enlightened", even though experience is a transitory dream. How can one be enlightened when actually there is no one. The whole idea of being enlightened seems to have no place in the reality of existence

Perhaps "enlightenment" is not something to achieve but an object of focus to guide the path of discovery and wisdom, an idea that directs our spiritual evolution. We walk the path of enlightenment, but to say that one "becomes enlightened" only feeds the ego.


Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email Bezoomy
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Reply from stephen
Mar.24.2007
07:55AM EDT 
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All questions are based on attachments, delusions and assumptions. Your question assumes a reality of existence. The question might be better put: Given enlightenment is there no place for the reality of existence. MU

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Reply from amylim
Mar.24.2007
08:04AM EDT 
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Beyond Enlightenment Zap Out Of Mine & You

"Seek no state of enlightenment" and "does not remain where no enlightenment exists" beyond concepts "no-thing".

With Metta

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Reply from Bezoomy
Mar.24.2007
09:30AM EDT 
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vertical line Stephen, I would respond to that but I'm too afraid.
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Reply from ______
Mar.24.2007
10:53AM EDT 
vertical line Hey, don't worry, 'stephen' is only just a euphemism. Grasp the nettle.
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Reply from ______
Mar.24.2007
11:04AM EDT 
vertical line The noise? That's ok. It's Mr Whippy singing Ave Maria to the tune of Land of Hope and Glory. Listen, pure, raw, unadulterated pleasure for a little lord noble nut banana. Enjoy it. And deep fat fry your sectarian cheques.
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Reply from amylim
Mar.24.2007
12:35PM EDT 
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Quote: "Hey, don't worry, 'stephen' is only just a euphemism. Grasp the nettle. "
.........

Reach-out Understand this Simple Truth In having Compassion

This world is just full of friends and strangers yet to befriended.

With Metta- Loving Kindness

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Reply from ______
Mar.24.2007
12:37PM EDT 
vertical line ok
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Reply from amylim
Mar.24.2007
02:45PM EDT 
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Quote: "Stephen, I would respond to that but I'm too afraid. "
.........

Be Earnest Zero-in Observed how Open Minded You are, the more the light of Truth falls into your life.

May U Be Well & Happy

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Reply from amylim
Mar.25.2007
12:35PM EDT 
Email amylim
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Quote: "ok"
.........

Excerpt from Huineng:

He who treads the Path in earnest

Sees not the mistakes of the world;

If we find faults with others

We ourselves are also in the wrong.

When other people are in the wrong, we should ignore it,

For it is wrong for us to find fault,

By getting rid of the habit of fault-finding

We cut off a source of defilement.

When neither hatred nor love disturb our mind

Serenely we sleep.

Thank U for Being A Friend

With Metta- Loving Kindness

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Reply from cypherying
Mar.25.2007
05:48PM EDT 
Email cypherying
vertical line This topic is of great interest to all seekers and cultivators!

From my own experience I offer an understanding based from the teachings given by my master.

I feel the idea that there is "no one" is actually not precise because in fact, there IS someone here.. right now.
Perhaps at the Buddha's level, there is "no one" home but until the observer holds experiential understanding of that level, "no one" is just a mere theory yet to be proven.

And so for the true practical purpose of cultivation, the concept of "no one" is false and will serve to be an obstacle.


However, lets not get it twisted... I'm totally with Bezoomy when he points out that yes, in fact thinking of Enlightenment as a goal will only serve to re-inforce our ego self!


If "enlightenment" is true, then it should be hold true at all levels of experience. 
For this reason that is why it can be both the path and the goal at the same time.

I would prefer to approach enlightenment from my current level of observation and experience since I'm not at the Ultimate level of observation.

Otherwise how can i bridge this gap?

enlightenment is simply knowing one's true nature.

Really seeing and observing one's true nature probably leads to the experiential understanding that we are in fact no one.
Also that we are all one.

but enlightenment is very much possible right now in this life time.
No doubt about it!

Seeing one's true nature clearly and without judgement is the means to "achieve" this "state"!



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Reply from HarryB
Mar.25.2007
06:02PM EDT 
vertical line “Do not think you will necessarily be aware of your own enlightenment.” Dogen “Do not follow the ideas of others, but learn to listen to the voice within yourself. Your body and mind will become clear and you will realize the unity of all things.” Dogen These seem pertinent, for what its worth. regards, harry
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Reply from ______
Mar.25.2007
07:30PM EDT 
vertical line The question, 'Who am I?' is answered by listening attentively to the question and has nothing whatever to do with thinking, explaining, analysing 'enlightened' / 'not enlightened' / 'unenlightened'. If someone feels more awake than someone else, what is the feeling measured on? If someone believes there are degrees, levels and stages of what is called enlightenment, on which scale are these degrees measured? It is only mental activity, thoughts giving rise to the illusion of separateness - I-thoughts, followed by you-thoughts, he, she, it and them-and-us-thoughts, what-thoughts, when, how and what-for-thoughts, even enlightenment-thoughts. When one sees no difference between oneself and others there are no enlightenment-thoughts and one is freed from the idea of enlightenment.
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Reply from lehish
Mar.25.2007
07:45PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line :)
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Reply from cypherying
Mar.25.2007
09:32PM EDT 
Email cypherying
vertical line Quote: "The question, 'Who am I?' is answered by listening attentively to the question and has nothing whatever to do with thinking, explaining, analysing 'enlightened' / 'not enlightened' / 'unenlightened'. If someone feels more awake than someone else, what is the feeling measured on? If someone believes there are degrees, levels and stages of what is called enlightenment, on which scale are these degrees measured? It is only mental activity, thoughts giving rise to the illusion of separateness - I-thoughts, followed by you-thoughts, he, she, it and them-and-us-thoughts, what-thoughts, when, how and what-for-thoughts, even enlightenment-thoughts. When one sees no difference between oneself and others there are no enlightenment-thoughts and one is freed from the idea of enlightenment. "
.........

To be clear, I didn't talk about the degrees, levels, and stages of enlightenment.

Enligtenment is at best, a theoretical concept until its made real through our own efforts of self-realization.
I emphasize.. OUR OWN EFFORT.

this simply doesn't not happen automatically on its own with no reason.
Before one reaches the stage of no-effort, SOME effort must be made
that is the resolving of the paradox.

The degrees and levels I spoke of was our own experiential awareness.
There is no measurement based on a scale of comparison and I don't want to mislead or miscommunicate this concept.

The buddha spoke of 12 bodhisattvas and outlined their characteristics.
In fact he was speaking of the 12 major internal states of your awareness.

And the only reason why he differentiates is not to separate these 12 degrees and levels of awareness from one another.
but rather to make clear to the thinking mind that even though there are different kinds of it, its ALL the same thing.  simply awareness.

We are still of the thinking mind no?  to deny that this state exists is also to have veered into the state of "i thoughts" and ego self.

The complete experience of awareness is referred to buddha in sutras as "as is awareness"
or "ru shi guan cha"

Please do not confuse what I wrote as a means to compare to even more relative forms of comparison.

That would definitely lead to the increase in I thoughts and so on and so forth.

we all know theoretically the characteristics of being enlightened.
"When one sees no difference between oneself and others there are no enlightenment-thoughts and one is freed from the idea of enlightenment. ""

however, the actual experience of this state is indeed a process.
and thus because the process is identified as the TRUE state of being, it manifests itself on every level of understanding.

therefore it is important to explain/analyze on an angle that the mind can ALSO participate in because our "as is" awareness can only be cultivated from our current level of awareness.

Meaning we are not on a Buddha level so let us not play around with Buddha concepts we don't have any experience of.

If by chance we were to be able to quantum leap into the highest levels of awareness then things would as simple as merely listening to the question "who am i"

however, in the true reality of one's own state, this is simply not true and not practical.
Such practice can not lead to true liberation.

-Kai

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Reply from amylim
Mar.25.2007
10:37PM EDT 
Email amylim
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Quote: "This topic is of great interest to all seekers and cultivators!

From my own experience I offer an understanding based from the teachings given by my master.

I feel the idea that there is "no one" is actually not precise because in fact, there IS someone here.. right now.
Perhaps at the Buddha's level, there is "no one" home but until the observer holds experiential understanding of that level, "no one" is just a mere theory yet to be proven.

And so for the true practical purpose of cultivation, the concept of "no one" is false and will serve to be an obstacle.


However, lets not get it twisted... I'm totally with Bezoomy when he points out that yes, in fact thinking of Enlightenment as a goal will only serve to re-inforce our ego self!


If "enlightenment" is true, then it should be hold true at all levels of experience. 
For this reason that is why it can be both the path and the goal at the same time.

I would prefer to approach enlightenment from my current level of observation and experience since I'm not at the Ultimate level of observation.

Otherwise how can i bridge this gap?

enlightenment is simply knowing one's true nature.

Really seeing and observing one's true nature probably leads to the experiential understanding that we are in fact no one.
Also that we are all one.

but enlightenment is very much possible right now in this life time.
No doubt about it!

Seeing one's true nature clearly and without judgement is the means to "achieve" this "state"!


.........

Thank U for Sharing. This one is for you.

Causation in dependent origination is why we are all here to suffer and learn

 

Yet many are thickly veiled by erroneous views and deep-rooted defilements

 

Pricked by the thorns of desire we bring suffering and retribution in its wake

 

Heart of Wisdom -Prajna is Wisdom, which has neither form nor characteristic.

 

Enlightenment itself has no abode, as it is pure and void, so is mind, void and calm

 

Recipient of Dharma once obtained, the recipient must realize it by his own efforts.

 

Yet for one who is attached to Nirvana, Nirvana is basically unborn and uncreated

 

If there is acceptance or rejection, all kinds of thoughts would be created there and then

Not to abide in form, matter, sound, delusion, enlightenment, quintessence and attribute.

 

Guide sentient beings to abandon mind and ego, for they are basically void in nature

All in One and One In All

With Metta

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Reply from lehish
Mar.25.2007
11:28PM EDT 
Email lehish
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no Kiss can tEliVy leafIng seashell sigNaTuring sAaNd   

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Reply from amylim
Mar.25.2007
11:47PM EDT 
Email amylim
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no Kiss can tEliVy leafIng seashell sigNaTuring sAaNd   

"
.........

"
.........

Love Embraces Hope In Searching Heart

Take Care

With Metta

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Reply from ______
Mar.26.2007
06:25AM EDT 
vertical line One does not 'merely' listen to the question 'Who am I?' because silence is the simplest and fullest answer of all.
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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.26.2007
12:13PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Beats sayin' nothin'.
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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.26.2007
02:33PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line and peace, is.
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Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.26.2007
02:34PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line :)
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Reply from cypherying
Mar.26.2007
05:36PM EDT 
Email cypherying
vertical line Quote: "One does not 'merely' listen to the question 'Who am I?' because silence is the simplest and fullest answer of all. "
.........

I agree with this concept but I don't feel it really addresses the notion of how one attains higher levels of awareness.

Here is an cut and paste job from my teacher's discourse I wish to share regarding this topic.


"To a Buddha, all beings are Buddhas.

In the mind of an enlightened one, the mountains, the rivers and the earth are also enlightened. In the eyes of a Bodhisattva, the flowers, the grass and the trees are nothing but Bodhi itself. This state is referred to as "Totally Is".

"Totally Is" is one's penetrating capability of seeing the Buddha Nature in everything and everywhere. It is the realization that right or wrong, likes or dislikes, life, death or Nirvana, are just reflections of our true nature.

"Totally Is" is experiencing everything now and here, following the flow and at ease.


"Totally Is" is strength, the diamond that cuts through illusion.

"Totally Is" is a vast mind that is beyond boundary and limitation.

Unless the mind is vast, the enlightenment cannot be great.

Unless the totality of mind is apparent, the attainment of enlightenment cannot be ultimate.

The mind of ordinary people is always changing. In alternate states, we have various minds: minds of anger/compassion, greed/generosity, ignorance/wisdom, wiliness/kindness, good merit/ guilt, and right/wrong. These minds either contradict each other or are totally irrelevant to each other. They eclipse the light emanating from our true nature and consume our life energy. The constant changing of the minds turned the grandest true nature into weak characters.

These minds can be categorized into three groups by their characters: greed, anger, and ignorance. If classified by the concept of time, they are the minds of the past, the present and the future. Of these three minds, the present mind always floating up in the air, we don't take time to pay attention to the mind of the present. We either look back to the past or daydream about the future; we don't bother to take care of the present. We live in illusion instead of reality. Although we have three minds, we consume most of our energy on the minds of the past and the future. This is called vacillation. Vacillation means not living in mindfulness. Not living in mindfulness means not in a state of 'Totally Is'. Without being in the state of 'Totally Is', you cannot even accomplish much on the mundane affairs, not to mention attaining enlightenment and gaining insight of our Buddha nature.

That is why Buddha asks us to live in mindfulness, to transform all minds into one concentrated mind. Only when we have one mind in now place, gradually we gain insight of what 'Totally Is' means.

'The effort itself to rid of suffering only makes the disease worse. The endeavor to attain nirvana is also wrong', said one master. Why, because it lacks in totality, absoluteness, comprehensiveness and pureness.

Complete trust will engender complete gratitude. Complete trust will bring about incredible blessings. Complete gratitude makes it possible for one to become enlightened now and here.

'Totally Is' is a state that is beyond comprehension.

As your awareness increases, you will ultimately realize that everyone is you, and you are everyone.

That distinction of separateness has disappeared. All phenomena has become one. The mountains in the distance are the sleeping Buddhas. The hills nearby are the sitting Buddhas. Each mountain boulder looks like a magnificently standing Buddha. The clouds are dancing. The winds are singing. The prairie, the sand, the forest, even the tiny grass are singing and paying their homage to their master Shakyamuni Buddha.

You might not have a taste of it yet. But all it takes is for you to whisper softly: 'We are all one." Can you imagine how wonderful this experience will be? Try it! If you feel the inspiration, then embrace it -- this oneness and totality of things! It will become an indispensable factor for you to attain enlightenment in this life.


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Reply from lehish
Mar.26.2007
06:01PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line exploding will clear that
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Reply from shayne
Mar.26.2007
06:33PM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line What is left is what im concerned with.
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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.26.2007
07:02PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line But  dr. shaynee is right, you know.

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Reply from lehish
Mar.26.2007
07:05PM EDT 
Email lehish
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Quote: "What is left is what im concerned with."
.........

ok :)

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Reply from lehish
Mar.26.2007
08:01PM EDT 
Email lehish
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Quote: "Quote: " You might not have a taste of it yet. But all it takes is for you to whisper softly: 'We are all one." Can you imagine how wonderful this experience will be? Try it! If you feel the inspiration, then embrace it -- this oneness and totality of things! It will become an indispensable factor for you to attain enlightenment in this life.
"
.........

Yao had wisely governed
All China.
He had brought the entire world
To a state of rest.
After that, he went to visit
The four Perfect Ones
In the distant mountains
Of Ku Shih.
When he came back
Across the border
Into his own city
His lost gaze
Saw no throne.

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Reply from ______
Mar.27.2007
09:44AM EDT 
vertical line Tweak my ears (not "playing around with 'Buddha concepts' we have no experience of" - food for thought - 'Buddha concepts' um ha ha).

"Resolving of the paradox" that's a good 'un with "quantum leaps"...hee by come by whoa and stop...and boing!!!




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Reply from ______
Mar.27.2007
10:08AM EDT 
vertical line "I agree with this concept but I don't feel it really addresses the notion of how one attains higher levels of awareness."

Ah, I never heard listening described as a concept. P'raps it's a notion.
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Reply from lehish
Mar.27.2007
02:30PM EDT 
Email lehish
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Quote: "Tweak my ears (not "playing around with 'Buddha concepts' we have no experience of" - food for thought - 'Buddha concepts' um ha ha).

"Resolving of the paradox" that's a good 'un with "quantum leaps"...hee by come by whoa and stop...and boing!!!




"
.........

"concepts"?

"paradox"?

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Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.27.2007
03:06PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
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Quote: "But  dr. shaynee is right, you know.

"
.........

read it in a book?

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Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.27.2007
03:08PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line ah bright light! pin of white!
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Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.27.2007
03:11PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line oh pooey wasn't going to answer the enlightened one... (topic that is)..... haa haa.... but did anyway
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Reply from ______
Mar.27.2007
04:02PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Tweak my ears (not "playing around with 'Buddha concepts' we have no experience of" - food for thought - 'Buddha concepts' um ha ha).

"Resolving of the paradox" that's a good 'un with "quantum leaps"...hee by come by whoa and stop...and boing!!!




"
.........


"concepts"?


"paradox"?



"
.........

Quote quote
To be clear, I didn't talk about the degrees, levels, and stages of enlightenment.

Enligtenment is at best, a theoretical concept until its made real through our own efforts of self-realization.
I emphasize.. OUR OWN EFFORT.

this simply doesn't not happen automatically on its own with no reason.
Before one reaches the stage of no-effort, SOME effort must be made
that is the resolving of the paradox.

The degrees and levels I spoke of was our own experiential awareness.
There is no measurement based on a scale of comparison and I don't want to mislead or miscommunicate this concept.

The buddha spoke of 12 bodhisattvas and outlined their characteristics.
In fact he was speaking of the 12 major internal states of your awareness.

And the only reason why he differentiates is not to separate these 12 degrees and levels of awareness from one another.
but rather to make clear to the thinking mind that even though there are different kinds of it, its ALL the same thing. simply awareness.

We are still of the thinking mind no? to deny that this state exists is also to have veered into the state of "i thoughts" and ego self.

The complete experience of awareness is referred to buddha in sutras as "as is awareness"
or "ru shi guan cha"

Please do not confuse what I wrote as a means to compare to even more relative forms of comparison.

That would definitely lead to the increase in I thoughts and so on and so forth.

we all know theoretically the characteristics of being enlightened.
"When one sees no difference between oneself and others there are no enlightenment-thoughts and one is freed from the idea of enlightenment. ""

however, the actual experience of this state is indeed a process.
and thus because the process is identified as the TRUE state of being, it manifests itself on every level of understanding.

therefore it is important to explain/analyze on an angle that the mind can ALSO participate in because our "as is" awareness can only be cultivated from our current level of awareness.

Meaning we are not on a Buddha level so let us not play around with Buddha concepts we don't have any experience of.

If by chance we were to be able to quantum leap into the highest levels of awareness then things would as simple as merely listening to the question "who am i"

however, in the true reality of one's own state, this is simply not true and not practical.
Such practice can not lead to true liberation.

-Kai

unquote
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Reply from lehish
Mar.27.2007
05:23PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line ah :)
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Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.27.2007
06:10PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line but we don't stay there. why? it is very hard to understand who anyone is and what anything is during those times... of awareness?... seems like out of the ordinary day really.....but........ inevitably somewhere? someone? something? wants an explanation, a reason, ..........something I don't know..... it can be scary not knowing who people are....  just keep going  what keeps happening that rips us out of awareness?
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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.27.2007
06:12PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line I'm not listening to myself!

sorry
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Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.27.2007
06:16PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line Woodsman... but it is myself and so not as well.... no.... this is so wonderful really.... but can't
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Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.27.2007
06:18PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line I have felt the squishiness of skin for two days.... and ?  oh...  quiet breathe
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Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.27.2007
06:19PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
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how long have I been gone?

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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.27.2007
06:20PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Quote: "I have felt the squishiness of skin for two days.... and ?  oh...  quiet breathe"
.........

Like when you press on it, it makes a crunchy sound?
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Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.27.2007
06:23PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line like squishness...
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Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.27.2007
06:24PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line like feeling skin from the inside......I've felt this before...twice..no maybe more
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Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.27.2007
06:25PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line looking at a photo of a teacher.... watching a movie of the Dahli Lama
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Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.27.2007
06:26PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line enough?
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Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.27.2007
06:27PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
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white light, blue light

first stars I've seen tonight

wish you may and wish you might

get the wish you wish tonight

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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.27.2007
06:29PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line I just wanted to be sure you're ok.
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Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.27.2007
06:31PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
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thank you

breathing........   :) same for you

sometimes it feels as though I'm cared for so deeply from inside and out....like a wonderful hug that drops down into the belly............ :) like warm soup

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Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.27.2007
06:33PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line I know
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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.27.2007
06:33PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line That's good to feel deeply.
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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.27.2007
06:34PM EDT 
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vertical line I have to go check if the crows got their dinner.
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Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.27.2007
06:35PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line (tongue wagging)....I don't know what you mean
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Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.27.2007
06:36PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line but this morning there was a bird perched on the tip top of the highest branch on the tree....... ask him
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 70309
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.27.2007
06:38PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line got to go
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 70310
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Mar.27.2007
06:55PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line ok
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 70314
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Mar.27.2007
07:20PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line the moon
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 70315
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Lynnoh
Mar.28.2007
01:26PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line sooooooooooo...smooth
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 70355
horizontal line
 
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