history principles practice stories, books, media discussion forum organizations resources
zenguide.com logo
 
Tuesday Sep 02 2014 05:10AM ET
º login º register º email º guestbook º printer friendly
grey dot
  There was an old woman in China who had supported a monk for over twenty years. She had built a little hut for him and fed him while he was meditating. Finally she wondered just what progress he had made in all this time. To find out, she... continue...

z
.
e
.
n
menu left history menu spacer principles menu spacer practice menu spacer zen media menu spacer discussion forum menu spacer organization directory menu spacer resources  
login
  DISCUSSION FORUM
» topic list   » start a new topic   » my tracked topics   » view topic
grey dot

horizontal line
→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: CAN PEOPLE CHANGE?
vertical line Posted on May.19.2007 @ 02:32PM EDT by Harmony

Can people change? I haven't ruled it out, but from my experience I answer in the negative. In particular I have never known a liar, a thief, or a slacker who changed for the better, but I have also known reasonable people who couldn't change despite promises and - I believe - sincere efforts.


Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email Harmony
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from El_Cid
May.19.2007
03:12PM EDT 
vertical line Conventionally perhaps, or what would be the pupose of Buddha's teaching?

Most of us act on things according to how we perceive them. Change the perception, and our actions can change, almost without effort at times. Keep in mind however: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Each of us must walk his own path.



"She turned me into a newt once!...I...I got better."
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71089
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from kelvintan
May.19.2007
03:27PM EDT 
Email kelvintan
vertical line

Quote: "Conventionally perhaps, or what would be the pupose of Buddha's teaching?

Most of us act on things according to how we perceive them. Change the perception, and our actions can change, almost without effort at times. Keep in mind however: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Each of us must walk his own path.



"She turned me into a newt once!...I...I got better."
"
.........

Each Little - Creature In Deciding

a life of its own walks on this planet.

Each of us must walk our own path

With Metta

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71090
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
May.19.2007
05:02PM EDT 
vertical line negative harmonisatory conformistism
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71091
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
May.19.2007
09:09PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Focus on the positive.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71093
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from stephen
May.19.2007
10:57PM EDT 
Email stephen
vertical line Everything changes. A liar can not lie if they do not know the truth, a thief can not steal if they believe that everything is thiers and a slacker can not be lazy if working is not important to them. Reasonable people change only when they get the new information. One can change but only ones self. MU
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71094
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from kelvintan
May.19.2007
11:15PM EDT 
Email kelvintan
vertical line

Having Already Ruled-out May One Normal You

Remains Uncluttered. Self Torturing Individual Consciousness

With One's Own Dharma Sow Mind Against Negativity

Peace Be With All

With Metta

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71095
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Pendragon
May.19.2007
11:20PM EDT 
Email Pendragon
vertical line

One small step at a time seems to work.

Sometimes the world turns upside down and an opportunity for major changes is created.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71096
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from whatzen
May.19.2007
11:32PM EDT 
Email whatzen
vertical line

Like all temporary manifestations people change all of the time. They change clothes, habits, likes and dislikes, and skins from life to life. What can be changed about that constant change? All of these changes occur within the Life that lives them. That Awareness that lives people is their true and constant nature.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71098
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from En Shin
May.19.2007
11:32PM EDT 
Email En Shin
vertical line One of the many Buddhist teachings on this involves what is often translated as "seed consciousness."  In Buddhist psychology, our subconscious is thought of as a place where seeds of thought and behavior dwell in an undeveloped state.  All of us have in our repository of seed consciousness those seeds which can grown into thoughts and deeds with favorable outcomes and those which can grow into thoughts and deeds with unfavorable outcomes.  

Throughout our lives these seeds come to fruition, the fruits exist within us for a while, then fades, and other seeds ripen.  For many of us this process happens unregarded and uncontrolled, and we simply experience the results.  Good seeds come to fruition and we have good experiences, but don't ever really know why, and likewise with the bad seeds.  

Buddhism teaches that we can alter this process.  We can watch our behavior, our thoughts, words and deeds, study them, and see which behaviors are helpful and which are not.  Which kinds of thoughts and words and deeds water the good seeds and cultivate them to grow, and which water the bad seeds?  What can we do to help the good seeds to grow and help the good fruits to thrive, and what can we do the keep the bad seeds from sprouting, of, if sprouted, keep them from growing?

The questions asked was, "Can we change?"  We most certainly can.  What resists change?  Mostly it is inertia, also known as "habit energy."  We have acted in a certain manner for so long that we are used to it.  It can be very hard to break this habit energy, but that is what much of daily Buddhist practice is about.

So the answer is, yes, we absolutely can change, and change in serious, deep ways.  It is not necessarily easy, but it entirely possible.

Peace,

En Shin
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71097
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Davidseon
May.19.2007
11:34PM EDT 
Email Davidseon
vertical line I had a very bad temper which is the main reason I took up zen.   I no longer have a bad temper, however I can still be a little cranky.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71099
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from En Shin
May.20.2007
12:32AM EDT 
Email En Shin
vertical line I have to smile.  I likewise have had a bad temper all my life, and Zen practice has deeply affected it.  It's not gone completely, (I still get a bit canky) but it has been a huge help.

;-)

En Shin
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71104
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from En Shin
May.20.2007
01:37AM EDT 
Email En Shin
vertical line I would also guide the original questioner to the current threads entitled Embers and The Buddha's Words, both of which touch directly on this question.  Buddhism is not a set of teachings to be believed, but a set of prescriptions to be put into practice.  This is the essence of the Eightfold Path, the endeavor to act with mindfulness and compassion in all things.  It is through mindfulness of our behavior that we come to see what we wish to change, and begin to change it.

Peace,

En Shin
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71106
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from kelvintan
May.20.2007
01:57AM EDT 
Email kelvintan
vertical line

Quote: "I would also guide the original questioner to the current threads entitled Embers and The Buddha's Words, both of which touch directly on this question.  Buddhism is not a set of teachings to be believed, but a set of prescriptions to be put into practice.  This is the essence of the Eightfold Path, the endeavor to act with mindfulness and compassion in all things.  It is through mindfulness of our behavior that we come to see what we wish to change, and begin to change it.

Peace,

En Shin
"
.........

Encouragement Need  Self Help In Nuturing

Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!

To You And All

With Metta

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71107
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Student101
May.20.2007
07:15AM EDT 
vertical line
Quote:
"

One small step at a time seems to work.

Sometimes the world turns upside down and an opportunity for major changes is created.

"
.........

Each moment is an opportunity for change, to better ourselves, our environment, our world.  Do we take that opportunity in each and every moment to see we always have a choice?  World upheaval or personal upheaval, is there really any difference? 

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71108
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
May.20.2007
07:17AM EDT 
vertical line 180 degree metanoia turn turn turn keep on turning
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71109
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Student101
May.20.2007
09:36AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Conventionally perhaps, or what would be the pupose of Buddha's teaching?

Most of us act on things according to how we perceive them. Change the perception, and our actions can change, almost without effort at times. Keep in mind however: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Each of us must walk his own path.



"She turned me into a newt once!...I...I got better."
"
.........

Each Little - Creature In Deciding

a life of its own walks on this planet.

Each of us must walk our own path

With Metta

"
.........

I just wanted to know what it is called that you do with people's names or just nouns in general?  Take the first letter and make a new word, is there a definition for this?  It is interesting!  Thanks for answering.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71110
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
May.20.2007
10:09AM EDT 
vertical line That's ok - it's called egotwistical twaddle from the root to lie through one's teeth - ego egas begat.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71111
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from kelvintan
May.20.2007
11:52AM EDT 
Email kelvintan
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Conventionally perhaps, or what would be the pupose of Buddha's teaching?

Most of us act on things according to how we perceive them. Change the perception, and our actions can change, almost without effort at times. Keep in mind however: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Each of us must walk his own path.



"She turned me into a newt once!...I...I got better."
"
.........

Each Little - Creature In Deciding

a life of its own walks on this planet.

Each of us must walk our own path

With Metta

"
.........

I just wanted to know what it is called that you do with people's names or just nouns in general?  Take the first letter and make a new word, is there a definition for this?  It is interesting!  Thanks for answering.
"
.........

"
.........

I just wanted to know what it is called that you do with people's names or just nouns in general?  Take the first letter and make a new word, is there a definition for this?  It is interesting!  Thanks for answering.
"
.........

Sharing Thoughts Understanding Dharma Explaining Noble Truths 101

Ways of learning  and putting into practice what I have written

With Metta

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71112
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from kelvintan
May.20.2007
12:21PM EDT 
Email kelvintan
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Conventionally perhaps, or what would be the pupose of Buddha's teaching?

Most of us act on things according to how we perceive them. Change the perception, and our actions can change, almost without effort at times. Keep in mind however: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Each of us must walk his own path.



"She turned me into a newt once!...I...I got better."
"
.........

Each Little - Creature In Deciding

a life of its own walks on this planet.

Each of us must walk our own path

With Metta

"
.........

I just wanted to know what it is called that you do with people's names or just nouns in general?  Take the first letter and make a new word, is there a definition for this?  It is interesting!  Thanks for answering.
"
.........

"
.........

I just wanted to know what it is called that you do with people's names or just nouns in general?  Take the first letter and make a new word, is there a definition for this?  It is interesting!  Thanks for answering.
"
.........

Many years ago,I saw this type of writing at an old folk home where  4 person were involved, two holding a three prong pine branch and writing words in the sandbox, one of them records the writing on paper, the other speaks out loud the words and another sweep the sand for new word to be written. The message came out was that "I was  curious about this so-called Divine Pen Writing that answer to people's petition. Then I met someone who use my name to write about me. I was impress and started to write my thoughts and express my feelings. That is where it all begins.

With Metta

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71113
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from kelvintan
May.20.2007
01:41PM EDT 
Email kelvintan
vertical line

Kindly Explain Lettering Very Interesting Note Thanks Answer Needed

Just formed words with each alphabet in relation to the topic

Just Sharing

With Metta

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71114
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Cacafire
May.20.2007
03:34PM EDT 
vertical line I think the question you are really asking is "can myself change?" Only you can tell, but if you succeed in changing yourself then you have answered your question. ;)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71115
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
May.20.2007
03:47PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line With every day there is a change, a waiting, for one's self, to awaken.
There is change for the better, and for the worse, and non-attachment  to suffering, one turns away from guilt, shame, anger, greed and delusion. And in that turning, there is a letting go, a letting things be, in silence, stillness... even within the chaos. We stop, by not reacting to suffering in the same way, we change the thoughts and words, our bodies change into houses holding sanctuary for all.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71116
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Student101
May.21.2007
12:22AM EDT 
vertical line Thank you so much for answering.  What beautiful experience for you.  "Divine Writing" I just love that so-called name for it.  I am going to try and toy with this and see if my vocabulary is up to par. 

Metta to you too and everyone else
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71119
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
May.21.2007
05:15AM EDT 
vertical line My name is Tonka - I'm a real tough toy for a real tough boy.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71126
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Lynnoh
May.21.2007
11:31AM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line

Quote: "Everything changes. A liar can not lie if they do not know the truth, a thief can not steal if they believe that everything is thiers and a slacker can not be lazy if working is not important to them. Reasonable people change only when they get the new information. One can change but only ones self. MU"
.........

................A liar can not lie if your truth is not the only truth... a theif cannot steal if your belongings are just your own... and a slacker cannot be lazy if working is not more imortant to you.....

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71133
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Lynnoh
May.21.2007
11:34AM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line

bowing Gatha:

the bower and what is being bowed to are empty by nature.

the bodies of oneself and another are not two.

I vow to emanate the unsurpassable mind.

and to return to boundless truth

I asked this morning if you would let me know what I do not understand, if you promised to.........

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71134
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Lynnoh
May.21.2007
11:35AM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Everything changes. A liar can not lie if they do not know the truth, a thief can not steal if they believe that everything is thiers and a slacker can not be lazy if working is not important to them. Reasonable people change only when they get the new information. One can change but only ones self. MU"
.........

................A liar can not lie if your truth is not the only truth... a theif cannot steal if your belongings are just your own... and a slacker cannot be lazy if working is not more imortant to you.....

"
.........  not just your own.......(belongings)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71135
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ZenMatters
May.28.2007
08:32PM EDT 
Email ZenMatters
vertical line If I am to say I am not a creature of habit, then I lie.  I might forget how I acted before, and even choose to try to ignore it.  I might not want to be that way and will probbably never act opon it, but until I loose the abillity to blink my eyes, I will blink as I blink.  If I am a theif, then I might return to that life.  This can be bad, or even good.  I might have deveopled a skill as a thief, but the point is mute except in a rare situation such as when life is in danger.  You are what you know.  You move on, and you want to change.  You might act different and learn new ways, but reflexs are the same.  I doubt you would break a Ming vase if you have done so before, but that is because you are unlikely to want to suffer the consequenses.  I do not want to suffer the consequenses of illicit behavior.  There for I am honest, yet I behave the law.  I have no need to, as I am provided for.  I find no need to get in trouble, and I have learned new reasoning to stop myself.  I feel more compassion for people now that I have been gotten older, but I am getting wiser to.  This is where choice and karma come in.  I choose to become enligtened.  I choose to turn around my wrongful ways, and I will become more compliant with the simple life that I accept.  It is not within my lack of grasp to do better, butit takes that exertion to choose to do so that makes me a better person.  If you want to catch a theif, then you hire an ex-theif you know to have been partialy rehabiltated.  You might as well deal with the devil you know than rather deal with the devil you don't as the story goes.  I am not as naive as some may percieve, and I will conciously decide to be a better person.  We have the chance to heal, and to make better our lives, and to overcome diversity.  I am still a dogmatic person, and I know that people are in need of protection and knowledge.  I am aware of how not to behave, as you should.  We are not just to only arm our selves with knowledge, but to defend our selves as well.  We must realize that we are in a world of contradiction and of folley.  Justice takes many a form.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71407
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Lionel
May.29.2007
06:05AM EDT 
Email Lionel
vertical line Well, I am doubtful if the object-cling-mind which is so called I or ego, can be changed at all, though it keeps on changing itself, but it is still changing foreverly, unless the nature of seeing, see face to face to it clearly & sharply. What then, when the job is thoroughly done? Will it still changed?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71409
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
May.29.2007
07:17AM EDT 
vertical line Ocean steam liner going um yacht
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71415
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from oglevoid
May.29.2007
10:18AM EDT 
Email oglevoid
vertical line We are all thieves, and liars, and slackers.  We can do better by following the way.  Everything changes including the mind, heart and soul of everyone.  Of course, it may not change in this life.   No one can promise you anything.    
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 71426
horizontal line
 
Back To Topic List   Go to Top of Page

 



SUPPORT ZENGUIDE.COM
If you are planning on purchasing any product from amazon.com, you can help us out by using the search box to the right or by clicking on this link to begin shopping.


Purchase posters, art prints, media (music CD & DVD)

buy this ZEN 2
by Atelier Lzc
Puchase this Item
More Art Prints & Media
Zen & Buddhism books
 
 
d
.
i
.
s
.
c
.
u
.
s
.
s
.
i
.
o
.
n
.

.
f
.
o
.
r
.
u
.
m
.
Copyright © 1999 - 2014 zenguide.com - All rights reserved. °