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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: MUSIC, ART, AND SADNESS
vertical line Posted on Jun.01.2007 @ 12:14AM EDT by oliveplume

Greetings!

I am relatively new to the world of zen and I am just starting to get a grasp of the concept, attachment = suffering.

While I can understand why a person would want to avoid sincere grief, such as the loss of something or someone. How does this idea relate to art?

Is it healthy to experience these emotions through art? Should we not encourage art that makes one sad when experiencing it?

:  )


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Reply from Woodsman
Jun.01.2007
12:42AM EDT 
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vertical line Hi. The creation of "art" itself has attachment written all over it, if the work is to be seen by others, who will either like it, or not. Praise as the first motivator eventually fails.  One has to be self-motivated, to create, for long.

If the art is made to "say" something about social conditions, trying to wake people up, the intent is "pure", and can serve a "higher" purpose, other than just to garnish praise, or money.

The ego basks in the sunlight of it's own limited glory, but it dies, alone, we all do. Art that serves a larger purpose, sets up a type of willingness to look at the "hard" stuff now, as opposed to living in denial, and going out to "get it" from the "masses". We shop, for shit, we can't create.

The general sense of life is that it never ends, and that the "highest" purpose is self-gratification. How was your dinner tonight? Some people ate no dinner tonight... and that, is what art can explore, for the purpose of  " waking - up " those who have eyes to see, the rest will just ignore the truth, the truth that life is... suffering.

And suffering is caused by attachments to the basics, without any experience to get to a deeper meaning, of why we are here. And, we are not created, to suffer. And art, can tell that truth, but the whole truth is kind of ugly, at first, or at least in spells.
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Reply from ______
Jun.01.2007
05:52AM EDT 
vertical line What? Wh wh what? The artist cares? Cares, and cares to give. The gift that always remains with the artist, um paradoxically, like. Flowing out and in with moving stillness. The joining of extremes - darkness and light - is excrutiatingly painful. A clear light so bright and pure, it strikes....(!)....like an ambush with hurt, sadness, spiritual darkness - the longer the gaze at the sun, the darker the visual capacity - this ray of darkness, overwhelming and transcending.

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Reply from Davidseon
Jun.01.2007
07:50AM EDT 
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vertical line Art is wonderful, it can convey many emotions.  When happy laugh, when sad cry.  But don't crave emotions.
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Reply from HarryB
Jun.01.2007
07:52AM EDT 
vertical line Great artists use everything at their disposal, even their senses of self: some get a bigger perspective on it, some don't and can suffer accordingly; The Tortured Artist.

"Zen Art" painting, calligraphy, music has a strong sense of acceptance through it: while it doesn't seek to amplify any particular feelings, it doesn't seek to suppress them either, so you have an aesthetic there that celebrates what is 'imperfect' or a little bit skethcy, what could be seen to be a little bit flawed: a sort of 'perfection in imperfection'.

Wabi Sabi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi_sabi

Regards,

Harry.

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Reply from Woodsman
Jun.01.2007
09:54AM EDT 
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vertical line If we label some art, some not, that is the art of labeling. What we create, has behind it a motivation, to connect with a truth, beyond the limits of cause and effect, we arise each day from an unknowing. So that, each gesture, each look, each day carries with it, an opening, free from suffering, as we step back from creating suffering. And we come to learn, to listen, to everything, every sound; to look at everything beautiful and ugly, without attachment, or label. Art is giving a gift to us, to all. Sitting with the dying, working with the sick, making peace with the enemy within, is making a living art, a wordless working art, in silence, alone, we reach out, as one creation.
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Reply from stephen
Jun.01.2007
10:07AM EDT 
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vertical line Every once in a while I learn alot fro these pages. MU
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Reply from ______
Jun.01.2007
11:14AM EDT 
vertical line Silence utters the Word - it flows out constantly, while paradoxically remaining within - an artist's gift to the world, freely given and received. There are no 'as ifs'.
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Reply from Woodsman
Jun.01.2007
12:46PM EDT 
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vertical line The black dog is sad, hasn't had a walk yet, can't... people in the gallery.
I haven't shaved yet, can't... people in the gallery.
Sitting on the computer, writing on zen guide... people in the gallery.

Art stops things.
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Reply from Lynnoh
Jun.01.2007
12:58PM EDT 
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vertical line what sort of things?
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Reply from Woodsman
Jun.01.2007
02:31PM EDT 
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vertical line time, for starters, and stoppers
and thoughts, but without faults
talk
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Reply from Woodsman
Jun.01.2007
02:32PM EDT 
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vertical line Art, creates avoidance.
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Reply from Woodsman
Jun.01.2007
02:39PM EDT 
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vertical line Whoops! There is a difference between making art, and lust for making it.
And showing and selling it, or lust for praise and money, fame, glory, or aversion of life.
oh crap, gotta go make some more art babies
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Reply from ______
Jun.01.2007
02:53PM EDT 
vertical line ok that's it, I finished, cleaning, all dusted polished, I'm a bona-fido woof-woof rrrrralph cleaned upgrader - you can call on me anyime, places, anywheres and theres - my gift to you, to all the persons behind the usernames scanning the bug-wordies on them screen shields, creating and making and unmaking those forms letter by letter, words by words, lines by liners. Hello!
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Reply from ______
Jun.01.2007
03:20PM EDT 
vertical line a musical picture of an attendee becoming a disciple of what's attended into a dissolving of strictures not structures and the cracking of code form fingers on dancing keys and flickering screen-changes with letter by pixel letter in the post continually solved into form and no-form addings and deletings of eyes moving along letters to letter byways and highways wordways and liners making masking and unmasking formways...heigh-ho
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Reply from Woodsman
Jun.01.2007
03:31PM EDT 
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vertical line don't ask me why, but today English Rose is the color... it's like everywhere, the frames, my shirt, my hands, that Robin's eggs, people's talking...  That's it! I have to get a picture of those Robin's eggs!
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Reply from Lynnoh
Jun.01.2007
06:53PM EDT 
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vertical line it would be nice to know what you were saying
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Reply from kelvintan
Jun.01.2007
10:45PM EDT 
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Only Love Inspires Vivid Experiences Preserve Love Until Matter Expires

Overcome Life's Inner Vexations Experienced People Live Under Many Expectation 

With Metta

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Reply from -----0
Jun.02.2007
11:59AM EDT 
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Oliveplume, I love art and it rarely makes me sad. When it does, so what.

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Reply from boymonk
Jun.02.2007
07:40PM EDT 
vertical line Ancient Chinese secret say, "when funny laugh :D, when sad cry :(."
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Reply from ______
Jun.03.2007
07:57AM EDT 
vertical line >>Greetings!

I am relatively new to the world of zen and I am just starting to get a grasp of the concept, attachment = suffering.

While I can understand why a person would want to avoid sincere grief, such as the loss of something or someone. How does this idea relate to art?

Is it healthy to experience these emotions through art? Should we not encourage art that makes one sad when experiencing it?

: )<<

................

Ok let's address this complaint.
But first I need additional information. You know, information?
So, to that end, what is this 'world of zen' to which you refer?
What does it feel like to be 'just starting to get a grasp of the concept, attachment = suffering'? And where did you get grasp this concept from?
Why should you think that a 'person would want to avoid sincere grief'? What is 'sincere grief'?
Is it healthy not to experience emotions through art?
What is art?
This 'encouraging of art that makes one sad when experiencing it' - what does that question mean you're for or against?
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Reply from Woodsman
Jun.03.2007
10:24AM EDT 
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vertical line Picking out the right stick. Preferably go somewhere you haven't been before, at least not having  looked  for sticks in the woods. Mostly look on the forest floor, but look up some too. Try not to be preoccupied with bigness, but look out for uniqueness. Start off with all sorts, and get a sharp razor knife.
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Reply from Woodsman
Jun.04.2007
10:31AM EDT 
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vertical line Bird crap! Nicely done, in the middle of my windshield! Bird arts! He weren't sad though! And I didn't even swipe! Ah, yeah.
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Reply from Woodsman
Jun.04.2007
10:34AM EDT 
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vertical line I thought, and it splatted!
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Reply from Woodsman
Jun.04.2007
10:39AM EDT 
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vertical line First the thought, then the act, acausal...connection. I know, too big for art types.
Next! Don't think!
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Reply from Lynnoh
Jun.04.2007
11:57AM EDT 
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missed the windsheild, but did hit... not as picked but then she said, "could have been worse he could have hit the windsheild"... with that look.......... maybe she changed it.....yeah..maybe

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Reply from ______
Jun.04.2007
02:14PM EDT 
vertical line Picked? As in pick your windshield / what size windshield do you take? Is 'he' now dead, bounced, maimed for life or scratchless?
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Reply from Woodsman
Jun.04.2007
02:52PM EDT 
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vertical line It was just the poop, dear. But, the thought proceeded an event. And within the context of years and experience, had never before happened, like that. Stops time. And these types, have a certain quality. It's like a connection, a consciousness is at work. Trickster? Maybe. Don't need a name for it, but when they happen, there is no mistake. I think they are born in silence, it's in silence that  they become known. It's an artist's way... nothing else.
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Reply from Lynnoh
Jun.04.2007
03:41PM EDT 
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Quote: "Picked? As in pick your windshield / what size windshield do you take? Is &apos;he&apos; now dead, bounced, maimed for life or scratchless?"
.........

I apologize... it was to read "pictured"

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Reply from Lynnoh
Jun.04.2007
03:42PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
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Quote: "It was just the poop, dear. But, the thought proceeded an event. And within the context of years and experience, had never before happened, like that. Stops time. And these types, have a certain quality. It&apos;s like a connection, a consciousness is at work. Trickster? Maybe. Don&apos;t need a name for it, but when they happen, there is no mistake. I think they are born in silence, it&apos;s in silence that  they become known. It&apos;s an artist&apos;s way... nothing else. "
.........

hm

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Reply from Woodsman
Jun.04.2007
04:24PM EDT 
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vertical line Going out to weed the garden, putting down wood ash, and the rain begins... perfect light.
So whole, seeing all as beginning without end. Gift.

Last night what was it,? To think back into the stressful noc. Was what I didn't have to say, to heal, in the beginning without having sound. Gift.
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Reply from Woodsman
Jun.04.2007
04:33PM EDT 
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vertical line I had forgotten the fawn, pulling weeds, it moved away from the garden fence. I saw it as light evolving, a way. Feminine water, way of life. What should I say as light, to this light of the one way motion? Light to light. Seen but unseen.
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Reply from ______
Jun.04.2007
06:41PM EDT 
vertical line "The first chirps of the waking day birds mark the "point vierge" [the virgin point] of the dawn under a sky as yet without real light, a moment of awe and inexpressible innocence, when the Father in perfect silence opens their eyes. They begin to speak to Him, not with fluent song, but with an awakening question that is their dawn state, their state at the "point vierge." Their condition asks if it is time for them to "be." He answers "Yes." Then, they one by one wake up, and become birds. They manifest themselves as birds, beginning to sing. Presently they will be fully themselves, and will even fly.

Here is an unspeakable secret: paradise is all around us and we do not understand. It is wide open. The sword is taken away, but we do not know it: we are off "one to his farm and another to his merchandise." Lights on. Clocks ticking. Thermostats working. Stoves cooking. Electric shavers filling radios with static. "Wisdom," cries the dawn deacon, but we do not attend."

Thomas Merton. Conjectures of A Guilty Bystander. New York: Doubleday, 1966: 131-132 Notre Dame, Indiana: University of Notre Dame Press, 1968: 18-19
Thought to Remember

"The most wonderful moment of the day is when creation in its innocence asks permission to "be" once again, as it did on the first morning that ever was."
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Reply from ______
Jun.04.2007
06:49PM EDT 
vertical line 'Each day is a new dawn of that lumen Christi, the light of Christ which knows no setting.'
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Reply from Lynnoh
Jun.04.2007
06:51PM EDT 
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vertical line one of my most favorite sounds is the static of an old record or a tv station not quiet .....
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Reply from Lynnoh
Jun.04.2007
06:58PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
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once read a book called "Scarlet Plume"

why would you want to avoid anything sincere?

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Reply from Woodsman
Jun.04.2007
07:59PM EDT 
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vertical line the sky seems so sad, just cries and cries, as I stand by her waiting, to touch the earth
                                                                         between
                   the                                                                                                              two
                   hands                                                                                                          stands
                    wet                                                                                                                 dry
                       she                                                                                                                    he
                         it's                                                                                                                         just...
                                 .                                                                                                                           .
                                           .          
                                                                                                                                         
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Reply from Lynnoh
Jun.05.2007
10:56AM EDT 
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vertical line are you the gurgling stomach that I hear?
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Reply from Woodsman
Jun.05.2007
11:28AM EDT 
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vertical line I can be whatever you want.
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Reply from Lynnoh
Jun.05.2007
11:34AM EDT 
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vertical line i was once that, but then there was more
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Reply from Lynnoh
Jun.05.2007
11:41AM EDT 
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vertical line while sitting ? the gurgling came from "outside" this body.. in a place I could not see.. but could hear and feel..thats all...
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Reply from Woodsman
Jun.05.2007
11:44AM EDT 
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vertical line For me it was more of a turning, like a whole flip. That got my attention.
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Reply from Lynnoh
Jun.05.2007
11:46AM EDT 
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vertical line ohhhhh turning, turning, turning...........
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Reply from Lynnoh
Jun.05.2007
11:47AM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line oh
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