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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: BREATHING OUT IN ZAZEN PROBLEM
vertical line Posted on Jun.11.2007 @ 09:27AM EDT by RayDaniel
Hi, just wondering if there are some pointers concerning the following.. While doing zazen, when pushing out all reserve air very slowly and controlled (by contracting both diaphragm and abdominal muscles). I experience some irregular resistence while breathing out, it feels like some of the muscles want to resist and contract in the opposite direction, this prevents me from breathing out gradually. Because it occupies my attention. Regards, Ray
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Reply from ______
Jun.11.2007
09:57AM EDT 
vertical line Hello

Your attention is already occupied with concentratiing on pushing. The diaphragm expands and contracts - it doesn't contract one way and then contract another way. Muscles can contract, expand, flex - when they are not contracting or expanding they are not flexing. The clue is that you are feeling that your muscles want to resist - they may be resisting concentration. Concentration is not awareness - it can become distracted. Awareness cannot become distracted - there is no distraction in awareness. Allow the breath to do the breathing.
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Reply from RayDaniel
Jun.11.2007
02:36PM EDT 
vertical line Hello, thanks for your reply. My description was a bit sloppy concerning the contracting of muscles, sorry for that. I think your feedback can help, I'm going to try put it into practice right know. :)
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Reply from RayDaniel
Jun.11.2007
03:50PM EDT 
vertical line Okay I think I figured out a few things! First I analyzed a bit further what the resisting force was. For me the resisting force comes right at the moment I'd normally breathe-in. But because I'm making stretched long out-breaths (not the entire time), my body expects to breathe in. And the 'friction' that is created due to the fact I'm still pushing out air, is felt in my throath up to the top of my head (there it felt like some kind of goose bumps). Now I think this is okay. Because after continuing doing so for few more moments, I experienced getting into some other state, became to enthousiastic though, so I stopped.. I'm wondering if this is something common in Zen?
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Reply from ______
Jun.11.2007
05:20PM EDT 
vertical line What are you analysing? You say that this 'resisting force comes right at the moment you would normally breathe in' and that your 'body expects to breathe in'. Why are you not normally breathing in?
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Reply from stephen
Jun.11.2007
06:36PM EDT 
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Quote: "What are you analysing? You say that this 'resisting force comes right at the moment you would normally breathe in' and that your 'body expects to breathe in'. Why are you not normally breathing in? "
.........

Master rustman:

When you teach it ofen important to understand what you are talking about. MU

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Reply from ______
Jun.11.2007
06:43PM EDT 
vertical line When you read it may help to just read what's there. Or you could explain the link between that and breathing abnormally. Why don't you just tell me to shut up and be done with it.
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Reply from ______
Jun.11.2007
06:57PM EDT 
vertical line And what is this fixation you have with usernames and all this 'master' stuff? Shouldn't you be in the lab or somewhere cocoon-like, making ice-cream and taking notes?
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Reply from ______
Jun.11.2007
08:01PM EDT 
vertical line It's a good thing I'm not holding my breath. What woof?
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Reply from ______
Jun.12.2007
05:25AM EDT 
vertical line Dear self-labelled 'scholar' 'preacher' 'ice-cream seller' and 'teacher of students', I think I should be told. Told what your scholastic field is. What your qualifications are and what you teach. It can't be rocket science because rocket science isn't a science; it's engineering. And it isn't creative writing because the only time you make any sense is when you're cutting & pasting somebody else's - more ineffectual than intellectual. Is it citizenship? Is it kundalini? Is it archery? No probably not. Unless it's the kind where the archer, having selected a target, pulls back the bow-string to its fullest extent but is then transfixed, incapable of releasing the arrow. Lactic acid (Moo) is then released into the muscles, thus disabling the would-be archer. A bit like breathing. Helps one learn how to place the attention in various locations, in and outside the body. When you believe you are the master of that, you may, although I'm not making any promises, allow the attention to rest where it will.
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Reply from lehish
Jun.12.2007
06:04AM EDT 
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Quote:  "Awareness cannot become distracted - there is no distraction in awareness. Allow the breath to do the breathing. "
.........

yes

then

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Reply from lehish
Jun.12.2007
06:17AM EDT 
Email lehish
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oop...was posted while typing though didn't press enter

so:

then googled for intstructions for zazen, for reponding stephen commenting rustic posts ;)

note, stephen,  "Let your breathe settle into its natural rhythm.":

7. Take a deep breath, exhale fully, and then take another deep breath, exhaling fully. Let your breathe settle into its natural rhythm. With proper physical posture, your breathing will flow naturally into your lower abdomen. Breathe naturally, without judgement or trying to breathe a certain way.

8. Keep your attention on your breath. When your attention wanders, bring it back to the breath again and again -- as many times as necessary! Remain as still as possible, following your breath and returning to it whenever thoughts arise.

http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/How_to_Sit_in_Zazen:_Instruction_for_Zen_

 

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Reply from stephen
Jun.12.2007
09:14AM EDT 
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One of the things I have taught in past is respiratory physiology to medical students and RTs. MU

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Reply from ______
Jun.12.2007
09:58AM EDT 
vertical line Ah ok. Nice overalls.
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Reply from Lynnoh
Jun.12.2007
11:35AM EDT 
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Quote: "Ah ok. Nice overalls. "
.........

hearing, not seeing?

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Reply from Lynnoh
Jun.12.2007
11:45AM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line smelling rain in the sunshine
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Reply from ______
Jun.12.2007
12:29PM EDT 
vertical line Nice smile.
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Reply from Lynnoh
Jun.12.2007
01:00PM EDT 
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hmmm....... this morning the thought to wear the overalls... but decided not to

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Reply from Lynnoh
Jun.12.2007
01:00PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line :)
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Reply from lehish
Jun.12.2007
02:12PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line Quote: "

One of the things I have taught in past is respiratory physiology to medical students and RTs. MU

"
.........

"
.........

so are thinking know more about breathing than breathing? ;)

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Reply from -----0
Jun.12.2007
02:50PM EDT 
vertical line with too much thinking it may become difficult to remember which comes next - breathing in or out
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Reply from Pendragon
Jun.12.2007
05:48PM EDT 
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Ray,

I was taught not to try to breathe in any special way.  (Soto Zen teacher)

Hope this is helpful.

Pendragon

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Reply from lehish
Jun.12.2007
05:56PM EDT 
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Quote: "with too much thinking it may become difficult to remember which comes next - breathing in or out"
.........

:)

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Reply from ______
Jun.12.2007
06:01PM EDT 
vertical line Hey I'm still breathing, hands free - and it's not a record, it isn't something to aspire to, wahey!
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