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  There was an old woman in China who had supported a monk for over twenty years. She had built a little hut for him and fed him while he was meditating. Finally she wondered just what progress he had made in all this time. To find out, she... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: EMPTINESS IS NOT THE SAME AS NIHILISM
vertical line Posted on Sep.05.2007 @ 11:38AM EDT by stephen

If all people and phenomena are selfless or empty, does that mean that nothing exists?

No, phenomena and people still exist. After all, I am still here typing and you are still reading! Emptiness is not the same as nihilism. Rather, people and phenomena are empty of our fantasized projections upon them. They lack what our wrong conceptions attribute to them. They do not exist in the way they appear to us at present, but they do exist. That is, they don't exist independently, but they do dependently exist. For example, someone wearing sunglasses sees dark trees. There are no independent dark trees, but we cannot say there are no trees at all. The trees exist: they just do not exist in the way they appear to the person with sunglasses. Bhikshuni Thubten Chodron


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Reply from boymonk
Sep.05.2007
11:47AM EDT 
vertical line Oh good, if nothing is independent then no act of mine is intentional volition so no bad karma for me, hehe!
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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.05.2007
01:52PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line I lost something. How's that?

Yes, you are correct, my mind.

No, it was not the chuck for my drill. Cuz I found that, after one hell of a search.

Can't find my mind though, I think the dog took it, and buried it under the apple tree.

It is such a nice tree.
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Reply from -----0
Sep.05.2007
04:37PM EDT 
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Quote: "The trees exist: they just do not exist in the way they appear to the person with sunglasses. "
.........

I am sorry, Stephen, but the appearance of a tree is real. A tree depends on our perception for its existence. It is just a concept we have invented based on what we see. That's why it is empty. It has no color on its own. Seen through pink sunglasses it is pink.

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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.05.2007
05:14PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Whoah, I hadn't even read his post.... weird, but true.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 74139
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Reply from ______
Sep.05.2007
05:44PM EDT 
vertical line Ok, let me get this straight - this sense-world is a real external world....er no, wait...it's an impression; the self's projected picture...er so this sense perpception is evidence of...the nature of reality?...what?
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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.05.2007
05:47PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line :)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 74142
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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.05.2007
10:05PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Wait a minute... I can explain everything. I forgot to read it. That's all. Did I already write that? It's not that I forgot, it's just that I refuse to look back. It's what happens if ya live out in the woods for awhile. The bugs start making sense. Well just today a big wolf spider and a black-winged wasp were goin' after it, the wasp clearly had the advantage, but was acting very much like a spider, circling and circling the wolf. And some fly was just sitting there next to the display, impervious as a monk at a wedding.
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Reply from ______
Sep.06.2007
05:48AM EDT 
vertical line hehe ah yeah
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Reply from 77 zen ror
Sep.06.2007
05:53PM EDT 
Email 77 zen ror
vertical line The love of Zen, compassion of life, just being. With one self. But that in your heart.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 74149
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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.06.2007
06:52PM EDT 
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vertical line Wait a minute, I've got one... ahem... no thought is not the same as don't know mind. But I don't know, I'm only guessing. So, I may be wrong. Whoopie.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 74150
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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.06.2007
07:22PM EDT 
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vertical line umm.. you don't have to be wrong to not be right
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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.07.2007
03:36PM EDT 
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vertical line oh baby
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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.07.2007
03:59PM EDT 
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vertical line you wanna chocolate chip cookie?
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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.07.2007
04:37PM EDT 
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so..last night there was tesing about burning the cookies, "could have had chocolate chip cookies! right now.....

just before getting on line..better make cookies for sesshin..how about snicker-doodles... I have no chocolate chips....

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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.07.2007
05:18PM EDT 
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vertical line Last night all I had to eat/drink was a glass of water. It was all I had time for. If there were mc cookies at work, I didn't have to time to eat one, and enjoy it. 
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Reply from 77 zen ror
Sep.07.2007
05:58PM EDT 
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vertical line Enjoy now, the moment, see all for the first time. Be awakeing with you glass of water. You all have a loveing weekend peace out RORY
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 74168
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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.07.2007
06:20PM EDT 
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Quote: "Last night all I had to eat/drink was a glass of water. It was all I had time for. If there were mc cookies at work, I didn't have to time to eat one, and enjoy it.  "
.........

mc cookies?

in the rain, I lay with .....listening, watching, laying with...and sometimes I let out a bit of a moan... and I wiggled a bit, it was uncomfortable... and...laying with...quiet.... BANG! I saw it strick! ...hit together...what a noise! and I felt it....without even leaving, I left.... 

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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.07.2007
06:32PM EDT 
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did not find the recipe for snickle doodles...so made a home-made version of the "oreo'

Woodsman? are you the one in my dreams lately? I hardly remember ..but there is a reoccurring gentleman in them? no?

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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.07.2007
06:35PM EDT 
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vertical line If I was looking into your eyes, I was.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 74176
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Reply from 77 zen ror
Sep.07.2007
09:10PM EDT 
Email 77 zen ror
vertical line LQQK in to my eyes with the love of compassion. tell me your dream & i will show a world of happiness. You to go off and have your dream. Get back to us. RORY
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Reply from -----0
Sep.09.2007
06:07AM EDT 
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Quote: "Ok, let me get this straight - this sense-world is a real external world....er no, wait...it's an impression; the self's projected picture...er so this sense perpception is evidence of...the nature of reality?...what? "
.........

when internal seeks an evidence of external existence, that is separation
awareness is the evidence of all

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Reply from ______
Sep.09.2007
12:15PM EDT 
vertical line Describe the all.
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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.09.2007
04:05PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line no need,you just did... but I'd still like to know
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Reply from ______
Sep.10.2007
06:52AM EDT 
vertical line There's this cinematograph running, a projector in between sense and image - it's a black&white talkie in technicolour, employing a full film-crew to take this and that and splice it together from a river flowing in and out, up and down, back and forth, an inexhaustible lake, never increasing, never decreasing.
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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.10.2007
02:44PM EDT 
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Quote: "There's this cinematograph running, a projector in between sense and image - it's a black&white talkie in technicolour, employing a full film-crew to take this and that and splice it together from a river flowing in and out, up and down, back and forth, an inexhaustible lake, never increasing, never decreasing. "
.........

never minding the weather conditions...just does anyway? not in besides though, and so.

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Reply from 77 zen ror
Sep.10.2007
03:21PM EDT 
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For the love of life enjoy.

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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.10.2007
04:17PM EDT 
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vertical line :) thank you
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Reply from 77 zen ror
Sep.10.2007
06:00PM EDT 
Email 77 zen ror
vertical line Your welcome. Just being the lovely happiness that you are.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 74221
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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.11.2007
11:11AM EDT 
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vertical line hee hee hee... a snickerdoodle cookie!    :)
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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.11.2007
11:13AM EDT 
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vertical line hey... 11:11
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Reply from 77 zen ror
Sep.11.2007
06:40PM EDT 
Email 77 zen ror
vertical line Can I have a bite of your cookie. I got milk, love & kindness to give. That does not end.   You know I'm jokeing. But I love your sprite.
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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.11.2007
08:12PM EDT 
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vertical line yes, I did know you were joking when you said it.
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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.11.2007
08:14PM EDT 
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vertical line everythings changed
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Reply from ______
Sep.12.2007
09:28AM EDT 
vertical line Half man half biscuit with rice milk. It's yours - 'ave a nibble.
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Reply from 77 zen ror
Sep.12.2007
03:44PM EDT 
Email 77 zen ror
vertical line I wish I could see you all. Meet you face to face. But I sit in Zen I see you. What part of the world are you in I'm in Cal. San Francisco Bay area. Can we all meet some day.       And be awakeing with love and compassion for one other. Thank you all RORY
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Reply from cicadascry
Sep.12.2007
05:00PM EDT 
Email cicadascry
vertical line if a tree fell in the forest, but there was no one there to hear it fall, would it make a sound?\i do not believe it would\i believe all objects require a mind observing them, to exist\all objects are ultimately created by your mind\
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Reply from boymonk
Sep.12.2007
05:44PM EDT 
vertical line Emptiness is nihilism, nihilism is emptiness.

How could it be any other way?
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Reply from boymonk
Sep.12.2007
05:44PM EDT 
vertical line I'm speaking non-conventionally of course. :)
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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.12.2007
06:48PM EDT 
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vertical line You're still speaking.
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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.12.2007
09:59PM EDT 
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vertical line you still?
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Reply from kelvintan
Sep.12.2007
11:22PM EDT 
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Quote: "if a tree fell in the forest, but there was no one there to hear it fall, would it make a sound?\i do not believe it would\i believe all objects require a mind observing them, to exist\all objects are ultimately created by your mind\"
.........

Hi,

Having

Comprehend Individual Consciousness  Awareness Dimension A So Called Reality You

do not look for heaven or dviinity out there. Awareness is within. Nothing is permanent but emotion and feeling are created by our mind.

I see perfection in the imprefection with compassion.

With Metta

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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.12.2007
11:43PM EDT 
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vertical line When it goes like this... what happens?
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Reply from kelvintan
Sep.13.2007
01:57PM EDT 
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Quote: "When it goes like this... what happens? "
.........

Either

Worldly Or One Develops Supramundane Mind And No

World Without Mind.

By mind the world is led,

By mind the world is moved.

And all good and bad things

Exist in the world because of mind.

- Buddha-

With Metta

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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.13.2007
02:16PM EDT 
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vertical line No, when it goes like this.
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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.13.2007
02:17PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Oops! You're right! I hadn't thought about it.
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Reply from 77 zen ror
Sep.13.2007
06:24PM EDT 
Email 77 zen ror
vertical line We a humans are awaken. Thank you all. Very good stuff.
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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.21.2007
11:41PM EDT 
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Quote: "if a tree fell in the forest, but there was no one there to hear it fall, would it make a sound?\i do not believe it would\i believe all objects require a mind observing them, to exist\all objects are ultimately created by your mind\"
.........

not so loud...shush...shush....

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Reply from kelvintan
Sep.22.2007
04:33AM EDT 
Email kelvintan
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "if a tree fell in the forest, but there was no one there to hear it fall, would it make a sound?\i do not believe it would\i believe all objects require a mind observing them, to exist\all objects are ultimately created by your mind\"
.........

not so loud...shush...shush....

"
.........

"
.........

Listening You Need Not Only Hear as without awareness, there is no one to hear it fall.

With Metta

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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.22.2007
09:57AM EDT 
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vertical line "plop" into the water kind of treefrogish. Yes, and I hear all 'plops', or I did, before I got labeled "enlightened".
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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.22.2007
10:30AM EDT 
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"plop" exactly ! this is what I wrote to a friend about a frog story she wrote...

noone to hear leaves only listening...must we assume our ears are on our heads?

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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.22.2007
10:31AM EDT 
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vertical line well I just heard it this morning, on my drive home from work
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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.22.2007
10:33AM EDT 
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vertical line in the space of kitchen.."plop" while laying in bed
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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.22.2007
10:38AM EDT 
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vertical line so now there is where?..and when?
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Reply from gebhart099
Sep.22.2007
12:08PM EDT 
Email gebhart099
vertical line Quote: "if a tree fell in the forest, but there was no one there to hear it fall, would it make a sound?\i do not believe it would\i believe all objects require a mind observing them, to exist\all objects are ultimately created by your mind\"
......... I disagree. The reason is the way the question is phrased...." but there was no one 'there' to hear it fall...". What does "there" mean? It  is too inexact. In this context it means within hearing distance and to say within hearing distance automatically implies that the tree made a sound.
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Reply from kelvintan
Sep.22.2007
02:08PM EDT 
Email kelvintan
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Quote: "Quote: "if a tree fell in the forest, but there was no one there to hear it fall, would it make a sound?\i do not believe it would\i believe all objects require a mind observing them, to exist\all objects are ultimately created by your mind\"
......... I disagree. The reason is the way the question is phrased...." but there was no one 'there' to hear it fall...". What does "there" mean? It  is too inexact. In this context it means within hearing distance and to say within hearing distance automatically implies that the tree made a sound.
"
.........

If it is a fallen tree then Gone Even Before Hearing After Rooted Tree.

No Sound Is Sound

With Metta

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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.22.2007
02:10PM EDT 
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vertical line I chopped down the aspen tree. And man, or tree, did it fall. I had to drop it in the woods, cuz it wooda made lots more noise crossing the road, where the chickens live. "Cluck?"
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Reply from ______
Sep.22.2007
02:11PM EDT 
vertical line I heard it last night, continuous, kept me awake until 3:00 am. And then I just knew Lynn would post zenguide today.
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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.22.2007
02:13PM EDT 
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vertical line Go Lynn girl! Plops away.
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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.22.2007
02:20PM EDT 
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vertical line Beats bein' in Rustic's  gallbladder. 
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Reply from ______
Sep.22.2007
02:22PM EDT 
vertical line Let me know when and I'll post you the gall bladder cleanse, purge and flush.
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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.22.2007
02:24PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line look back 8 posts, greenie
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Reply from ______
Sep.22.2007
02:27PM EDT 
vertical line Why?
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Reply from ______
Sep.22.2007
02:37PM EDT 
vertical line Ah yes, timing.
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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.22.2007
02:46PM EDT 
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vertical line I don't know, what time is, I only know when it is.... pearl huh?
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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.22.2007
02:50PM EDT 
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vertical line As the oceans make a stand, on a simple grain of sand.
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Reply from lehish
Sep.22.2007
03:06PM EDT 
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Quote: "in the space of kitchen.."plop" while laying in bed"
.........

hehe

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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.22.2007
03:44PM EDT 
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vertical line It all starts and stops in the bed. Unless you're a fish, or frog. Water is always a bed, for us, frogs, who are between jumps, of thought. 
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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.22.2007
04:42PM EDT 
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"no sound is sound"  hmmmm

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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.22.2007
04:44PM EDT 
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Quote: "It all starts and stops in the bed. Unless you're a fish, or frog. Water is always a bed, for us, frogs, who are between jumps, of thought.  "
.........

jumping on the bed

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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.22.2007
04:46PM EDT 
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reading and doing at the same time (grandkids..both)

both of them....

and plop... "lets do it at the same time" ........ ha!

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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.22.2007
04:48PM EDT 
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Quote: "I heard it last night, continuous, kept me awake until 3:00 am. And then I just knew Lynn would post zenguide today. "

what did you hear?

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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.22.2007
04:51PM EDT 
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Quote: "Beats bein' in Rustic's  gallbladder.  "
.........

 playin'  down at the park.. picking out some beautiful stones..........

don't look now..but the grandkids are looking at the rocks now... glass or rock? they ask

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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.22.2007
04:51PM EDT 
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Quote: "Beats bein' in Rustic's  gallbladder.  "
.........

 playin'  down at the park.. picking out some beautiful stones..........

don't look now..but the grandkids are looking at the rocks now... glass or rock? they ask

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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.22.2007
04:53PM EDT 
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vertical line twice..ah yes, of course
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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.22.2007
09:14PM EDT 
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vertical line plop plops
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Reply from gebhart099
Sep.23.2007
11:25AM EDT 
Email gebhart099
vertical line Quote: "if a tree fell in the forest, but there was no one there to hear it fall, would it make a sound?\i do not believe it would\i believe all objects require a mind observing them, to exist\all objects are ultimately created by your mind\"
......... This question  has nothing to do with sound or mind but with the limitations of our senses, in this case hearing.      A man and a dog are walking through a forest when, say half a mile away, a  tree falls. The man doesn't hear it but the dog does perking up his ears.  The man sees this and says excitedly, " What is it boy? What is it? Is it a deer? Is it wolves? Are we about to be attacked by a bear?" Then with a knowing smile the man bows to the dog and says," Ah, perhaps you have heard the sound of one hand clapping."            As my heart beats in my chest, it makes a sound , but unless I put on a stethascope I can't hear it. The sound doesn't  begin just because I put on the stethascope, it was already there. The stethascope just increased my ability to hear it. And of course the question can be asked using any of the other senses as well. For example, " If a tree were standing in a forest, and there was no one there to see it, is it visible?
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Reply from gebhart099
Sep.23.2007
11:35AM EDT 
Email gebhart099
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "if a tree fell in the forest, but there was no one there to hear it fall, would it make a sound?\i do not believe it would\i believe all objects require a mind observing them, to exist\all objects are ultimately created by your mind\"
......... This question  has nothing to do with sound or mind but with the limitations of our senses, in this case hearing.      A man and a dog are walking through a forest when, say half a mile away, a  tree falls. The man doesn't hear it but the dog does perking up his ears.  The man sees this and says excitedly, " What is it boy? What is it? Is it a deer? Is it wolves? Are we about to be attacked by a bear?" Then with a knowing smile the man bows to the dog and says," Ah, perhaps you have heard the sound of one hand clapping."            As my heart beats in my chest, it makes a sound , but unless I put on a stethascope I can't hear it. The sound doesn't  begin just because I put on the stethascope, it was already there. The stethascope just increased my ability to hear it. And of course the question can be asked using any of the other senses as well. For example, " If a tree were standing in a forest, and there was no one there to see it, is it visible?
"
......... Somebody knock me down. I'm being way too logical.
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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.23.2007
01:57PM EDT 
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vertical line You are doing great! Keep it up!
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Reply from kelvintan
Sep.23.2007
01:59PM EDT 
Email kelvintan
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Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "if a tree fell in the forest, but there was no one there to hear it fall, would it make a sound?\i do not believe it would\i believe all objects require a mind observing them, to exist\all objects are ultimately created by your mind\"
......... This question  has nothing to do with sound or mind but with the limitations of our senses, in this case hearing.      A man and a dog are walking through a forest when, say half a mile away, a  tree falls. The man doesn't hear it but the dog does perking up his ears.  The man sees this and says excitedly, " What is it boy? What is it? Is it a deer? Is it wolves? Are we about to be attacked by a bear?" Then with a knowing smile the man bows to the dog and says," Ah, perhaps you have heard the sound of one hand clapping."            As my heart beats in my chest, it makes a sound , but unless I put on a stethascope I can't hear it. The sound doesn't  begin just because I put on the stethascope, it was already there. The stethascope just increased my ability to hear it. And of course the question can be asked using any of the other senses as well. For example, " If a tree were standing in a forest, and there was no one there to see it, is it visible?
"
......... Somebody knock me down. I'm being way too logical.
"

Given Ears Beating Hearing Always Remain Tranquil

In stillness you can hear your heart beating

with awareness.

With Metta
.........

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Reply from ______
Sep.23.2007
07:32PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "I heard it last night, continuous, kept me awake until 3:00 am. And then I just knew Lynn would post zenguide today. "


what did you hear?

"
.........

A party.
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Reply from ______
Sep.23.2007
07:46PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "if a tree fell in the forest, but there was no one there to hear it fall, would it make a sound?\i do not believe it would\i believe all objects require a mind observing them, to exist\all objects are ultimately created by your mind\"
......... This question  has nothing to do with sound or mind but with the limitations of our senses, in this case hearing.      A man and a dog are walking through a forest when, say half a mile away, a  tree falls. The man doesn't hear it but the dog does perking up his ears.  The man sees this and says excitedly, " What is it boy? What is it? Is it a deer? Is it wolves? Are we about to be attacked by a bear?" Then with a knowing smile the man bows to the dog and says," Ah, perhaps you have heard the sound of one hand clapping."            As my heart beats in my chest, it makes a sound , but unless I put on a stethascope I can't hear it. The sound doesn't  begin just because I put on the stethascope, it was already there. The stethascope just increased my ability to hear it. And of course the question can be asked using any of the other senses as well. For example, " If a tree were standing in a forest, and there was no one there to see it, is it visible?
"
......... Somebody knock me down. I'm being way too logical.
"
.........

There are no ifs and buts when it comes to trees standing and falling. Trees don't make a distinction between physical and mental sound or disappear into the noise you made when you told me about the tree falling. And they invented Chaos Theory!
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Reply from lehish
Sep.23.2007
10:23PM EDT 
Email lehish
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lol

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Reply from -----0
Sep.24.2007
05:00PM EDT 
vertical line a tree does not even know that we conceive it as a tree
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Reply from ______
Sep.24.2007
05:33PM EDT 
vertical line You can tell yourself that. However, the Tree of Knowledge is all-knowing. She knows that I am conceiving the Tree of Life and giving birth to God. And she knows where you live...So there.
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Reply from -----0
Sep.25.2007
04:19PM EDT 
vertical line of course, she lives with me
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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.25.2007
04:23PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line ohhhh. was just wondering..if you were with.. but I'm not sure I know "me"
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Reply from -----0
Sep.25.2007
04:27PM EDT 
vertical line partners rarely know each other
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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.25.2007
04:30PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
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but not always

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Reply from -----0
Sep.25.2007
04:32PM EDT 
vertical line when they know "me", they don't know the other
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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.25.2007
04:33PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line sometimes they do
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Reply from lehish
Sep.25.2007
04:34PM EDT 
Email lehish
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"I'm not sure about  me" ? 

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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.25.2007
04:35PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line you are sure about me?
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Reply from lehish
Sep.25.2007
04:36PM EDT 
Email lehish
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teh post was responding:

Quote: "I'm not sure I know "me""

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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.25.2007
04:39PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line responding to what?
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Reply from lehish
Sep.25.2007
04:43PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line didn't say responding "to"
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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.25.2007
04:45PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
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maybe the post did respond...

the "sometimes they do" was the first response..but erased to "not always"...and they appeared... nothing more...

I feel a sadness

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Reply from lehish
Sep.25.2007
04:56PM EDT 
Email lehish
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maybe the post did respond...

the "sometimes they do" was the first response..but erased to "not always"...and they appeared... nothing more...

I feel a sadness"

......

sad were thinking that ?

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Reply from 77 zen ror
Sep.25.2007
06:58PM EDT 
Email 77 zen ror
vertical line Let love get the sadness out. Love well free all you r sadness if you onpen up to a new way of life. And that is sitting in Emtiness and seeing the love and compassion you get in sitting in Emptiness that life brings. enjoy the life of the sprits that are freeto tough us like no other way. LOVE RORY
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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.25.2007
08:33PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

maybe the post did respond...

the "sometimes they do" was the first response..but erased to "not always"...and they appeared... nothing more...

I feel a sadness"

......

sad were thinking that ?

"
.........

"
.........

I don't know

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Reply from lehish
Sep.26.2007
12:15AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line lol
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Reply from ______
Sep.26.2007
07:11AM EDT 
vertical line ok
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