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  One day the Buddha was asked by the naked ascetic Kassapa:
-Master Gotama, is suffering created by oneself?
The Buddha replied:
-Not so, Kassapa.
-Then, is suffering created by another?
-Not so, Kassapa.
-Then,... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: TWO KINDS OF PEOPLE
vertical line Posted on Dec.21.2007 @ 11:40PM EDT by chontri

In general speaking, there are two kinds of people.

The first one is those who can be called dependent people. This kind includes two types:

-Those who do not realize their own capacity and always expect to get big results and try to do big things as many as they could, such as to be a teacher, a master, a guru, a leader, a ruler, a founder of something, for example, an "ism", a church, a party, etc...

-And those who do not realize their own capacity and just wants to be a student, a slave, a disciple, a follower, a member, etc...

Why are they called "dependent people"?  Because, if one of these two types does not exist, the other will become crippled.  It’s impossible for them to get any results from the other.

The second one is those who can be called the independent people.  This includes those who realize their own capacity, do not expect to get any results from others, and rely on themselves in doing things.  Their heads are up into sky and their feet walk freely on earth.


Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email chontri
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Reply from Woodsman
Dec.22.2007
12:16AM EDT 
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vertical line I'm a third kind. Not a follower or leader. I'm a reader.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77185
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Reply from kelvintan
Dec.22.2007
01:20AM EDT 
Email kelvintan
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Quote: "I'm a third kind. Not a follower or leader. I'm a reader. "
.........

Without One, Others Don't See Mind And Nature - the Interconnectedness of all things.

With Metta

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77186
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Reply from El_Cid
Dec.22.2007
02:39AM EDT 
vertical line If this is so, and dependent-arising says 'independent' exists because of 'dependent', how can the Bodhisattvas vow ever be fulfilled?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77187
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Reply from El_Cid
Dec.22.2007
02:44AM EDT 
vertical line ...unless the delay is forever.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77188
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Reply from asheera
Dec.22.2007
07:09AM EDT 
Email asheera
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he he !!

Ben Frankfurter say: "Neither a leader nor a follower be."

Just be.  Needing nothing.  Wanting nothing. Being nothing.

And say only the things you want to hear from yourself, as if in a vacuum all by yourself, because maybe that's all there really is.

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Reply from ______
Dec.22.2007
07:13AM EDT 
vertical line The Bodhisattva vow has been fulfilled, will never be fulfilled; he has been waiting too long - becoming a Bodhisattva and waiting outside the gates of paradise for everyone else is not something one decides to be, or can decide to do, not something one can choose - it's a beautiful fictional story. And psychologists are either 'lumpers' or 'splitters' - meaningful only in terms of psychological theory and has nothing whatsoever to do with me.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77192
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Reply from chontri
Dec.22.2007
08:12AM EDT 
Email chontri
vertical line Quote: "I'm a third kind. Not a follower or leader. I'm a reader. "
.........
So, just read as much as you like. 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77209
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Reply from gebhart099
Dec.22.2007
10:23AM EDT 
Email gebhart099
vertical line There are 6 billion plus kinds of people. None of them are truly dependent. None of them are truly independent.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77210
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Reply from kelvintan
Dec.22.2007
10:35AM EDT 
Email kelvintan
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Quote: "There are 6 billion plus kinds of people. None of them are truly dependent. None of them are truly independent."
.........

Giving Example. By Having All Right Thumbprint verified, none appears identical.

With Metta

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77212
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Reply from kelvintan
Dec.22.2007
10:44AM EDT 
Email kelvintan
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Quote: "There are 6 billion plus kinds of people. None of them are truly dependent. None of them are truly independent."
.........

Giving Example,By Having All Right Thumbprint verified

on 6 million plus kinds of people, none of them is identical

With Metta

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77213
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Reply from chontri
Dec.22.2007
11:35AM EDT 
Email chontri
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Quote: "There are 6 billion plus kinds of people. None of them are truly dependent. None of them are truly independent."
.........
So, you truely know all and every of them (6 billion plus kinds of people) and none of them are neither truely dependent nor truely independent, right?  If so, you are extremely good at knowing of people.

ChonTri is not as good as you are, he knows just a couple of kinds as he mentioned above.


 

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Reply from Lynnoh
Dec.22.2007
01:16PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line you are knowing ?
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Reply from Lynnoh
Dec.22.2007
01:17PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line I wear two pony tails today
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Reply from ______
Dec.22.2007
01:31PM EDT 
vertical line In the vanguard of a hedgeclipper, I manually and not a little boyishly, swept a 100 yard lane with a 12 inch hard broom and a luminous awareness, yesterday. You should see it. People even stopped in their 4x4s commented out the window and said ,"Good fekka", [no sorry] "fella!"
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Reply from chontri
Dec.22.2007
02:57PM EDT 
Email chontri
vertical line Quote: "you are knowing ?"
.........
Doesn't know.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77232
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Reply from ______
Dec.22.2007
03:51PM EDT 
vertical line To the milkman, the milkmaid said, "Oh, how I do enjoy seeing experienced men home in the evening." "But", said the milkman, "I'm not experienced." "Well", said the milkmaid, "you're not home yet."
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77233
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Reply from El_Cid
Dec.22.2007
06:24PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "The Bodhisattva vow has been fulfilled, will never be fulfilled; he has been waiting too long - becoming a Bodhisattva and waiting outside the gates of paradise for everyone else is not something one decides to be, or can decide to do, not something one can choose - it's a beautiful fictional story."
.........

Which is a fiction:

Nothing left to attain, or compassion for others?

I find no poison on this board whatsoever. Just rearranged dead words, and shallow intellectualization posing as 'knowing'.


Here's some 'dead words' for you:

"If someone without kensho makes a constant effort to keep his thoughts free and unattached, not only is he a great fool, he also commits a great transgression against the Dharma. He winds up in the passive indifference of empty emptiness, no more capable of distinguishing good from bad than a drunken man."
-Bodhidharma


I'm going to find a wall. I wish all of you the best on your journeys.

.
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Reply from Woodsman
Dec.22.2007
06:37PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Now I'm a writing person, and reading this once.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77236
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Reply from gebhart099
Dec.22.2007
07:54PM EDT 
Email gebhart099
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "There are 6 billion plus kinds of people. None of them are truly dependent. None of them are truly independent."
.........
So, you truely know all and every of them (6 billion plus kinds of people) and none of them are neither truely dependent nor truely independent, right?  If so, you are extremely good at knowing of people.

ChonTri is not as good as you are, he knows just a couple of kinds as he mentioned above.


 

"
......... I do not truly know a single one of them, not even myself. Dependent or independent is a matter of perspective. I worked for several years with profoundly/severely retarded clients in a residential facility.( I still work there, but now in the warehouse.) We tried to foster indepedence by having the clients perform whatever tasks they could for themselves. I had one client who used to get up early every morning, get dressed, and come to me to tie his shoes. One morning as I was tying his shoes, a first shift staff came in and asked me what I was doing. I told him I was tying the client's shoes(duh). He told me the client could tie his own shoes and then told the client to tie his shoes. Sure enough the client tied his shoes. All that time I thought the client was dependent on me for tying his shoes but all that time he was just playing me.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77243
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Reply from chontri
Dec.22.2007
07:54PM EDT 
Email chontri
vertical line Quote: from El_Cid

I'm going to find a wall. I wish all of you the best on your journeys.

.
"
.........
That's right.  And the same to you.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77242
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Reply from ______
Dec.22.2007
08:12PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "The Bodhisattva vow has been fulfilled, will never be fulfilled; he has been waiting too long - becoming a Bodhisattva and waiting outside the gates of paradise for everyone else is not something one decides to be, or can decide to do, not something one can choose - it's a beautiful fictional story."
.........

Which is a fiction:

Nothing left to attain, or compassion for others?

I find no poison on this board whatsoever. Just rearranged dead words, and shallow intellectualization posing as 'knowing'.


Here's some 'dead words' for you:

"If someone without kensho makes a constant effort to keep his thoughts free and unattached, not only is he a great fool, he also commits a great transgression against the Dharma. He winds up in the passive indifference of empty emptiness, no more capable of distinguishing good from bad than a drunken man."
-Bodhidharma


I'm going to find a wall. I wish all of you the best on your journeys.

.
"
.........

I don't understand any of that. I don't see any of that. I thought at the time, I was quite clear about the beautiful fictional story - guess you have to be here. Where does the poison fit in? And rearranged dead words? You sound quite upset. Anyway, all the best but I think you already found a wall.
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Reply from chontri
Dec.22.2007
08:16PM EDT 
Email chontri
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Quote: "There are 6 billion plus kinds of people. None of them are truly dependent. None of them are truly independent."
.........
So, you truely know all and every of them (6 billion plus kinds of people) and none of them are neither truely dependent nor truely independent, right?  If so, you are extremely good at knowing of people.

ChonTri is not as good as you are, he knows just a couple of kinds as he mentioned above.


 

"
......... I do not truly know a single one of them, not even myself. Dependent or independent is a matter of perspective. I worked for several years with profoundly/severely retarded clients in a residential facility.( I still work there, but now in the warehouse.) We tried to foster indepedence by having the clients perform whatever tasks they could for themselves. I had one client who used to get up early every morning, get dressed, and come to me to tie his shoes. One morning as I was tying his shoes, a first shift staff came in and asked me what I was doing. I told him I was tying the client's shoes(duh). He told me the client could tie his own shoes and then told the client to tie his shoes. Sure enough the client tied his shoes. All that time I thought the client was dependent on me for tying his shoes but all that time he was just playing me.
"
.........
"
......... . Dependent or independent is a matter of perspective. 

Right.
What you are telling in your story is different from what ChonTri meant in his original post.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77247
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Reply from chontri
Dec.22.2007
08:33PM EDT 
Email chontri
vertical line Quote: "Now I'm a writing person, and reading this once. "
.........
So, just write and read as long as you'd like.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77248
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Reply from ______
Dec.23.2007
06:57AM EDT 
vertical line Eny fule kno writing on the wall :




vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77253
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Reply from gebhart099
Dec.23.2007
11:36AM EDT 
Email gebhart099
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "There are 6 billion plus kinds of people. None of them are truly dependent. None of them are truly independent."
.........
So, you truely know all and every of them (6 billion plus kinds of people) and none of them are neither truely dependent nor truely independent, right?  If so, you are extremely good at knowing of people.

ChonTri is not as good as you are, he knows just a couple of kinds as he mentioned above.


 

"
......... I do not truly know a single one of them, not even myself. Dependent or independent is a matter of perspective. I worked for several years with profoundly/severely retarded clients in a residential facility.( I still work there, but now in the warehouse.) We tried to foster indepedence by having the clients perform whatever tasks they could for themselves. I had one client who used to get up early every morning, get dressed, and come to me to tie his shoes. One morning as I was tying his shoes, a first shift staff came in and asked me what I was doing. I told him I was tying the client's shoes(duh). He told me the client could tie his own shoes and then told the client to tie his shoes. Sure enough the client tied his shoes. All that time I thought the client was dependent on me for tying his shoes but all that time he was just playing me.
"
.........
"
......... . Dependent or independent is a matter of perspective. 

Right.
What you are telling in your story is different from what ChonTri meant in his original post.

"
......... I'm just not comfortable with trying to fit people into categories, saying either you are this or you are that.  Dependent or independent can be determined by circumstances. For example a person can be independent, not relying on others as you say, but if he becomes seriously ill he will have to go to a doctor if he wants to get well. He has to rely on that doctor's knowledge and skill and the training he has received that was passed down from generation to generation.( Dependence on ancestors.) I don't think anyone can ever be entirely independent. We are all a part of a greater whole, and we all depend on one another to some degree. So perhaps what I'm trying to say is that dependence/indepedence is a matter of degree. Some people are mostly dependent, some are mostly independent and many of us are somewhere in between. If I am still missing the point of your original post, I apologize for my ignorance.
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Reply from chontri
Dec.23.2007
12:57PM EDT 
Email chontri
vertical line  

Quote: "There are 6 billion plus kinds of people. None of them are truly dependent. None of them are truly independent."
.........
So, you truely know all and every of them (6 billion plus kinds of people) and none of them are neither truely dependent nor truely independent, right?  If so, you are extremely good at knowing of people.

ChonTri is not as good as you are, he knows just a couple of kinds as he mentioned above.

.........
"
......... . Dependent or independent is a matter of perspective. 

Right.
What you are telling in your story is different from what ChonTri meant in his original post.

"
......... I am just not comfortable with trying to fit people into categories, saying either you are this or you are that.  ........
This might be the problem.

Did the original post say: A student is a student forever and he should be a dependent all the time in his lifetime?  A teacher?  A follower?  A leader?....

A student and a teacher depend on each other while they are a student or a teacher of their own.  If one of them is missing, the relationship student - teacher is no longer exist, then none of them is as a student or teacher as it were.  And this is what the original post meant.

Putting people or things into some kinds of groups or categories (as you termed) is just a way of speaking, to make it a little easier to follow and understand at some degree.  If you felt uncomfortable with it, then it would not be its problem.

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Reply from -----0
Dec.23.2007
01:01PM EDT 
vertical line suddenly he knows again
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Reply from Woodsman
Dec.23.2007
01:17PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line I read the clouds, and leaves as they fall.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77263
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Reply from ______
Dec.23.2007
01:19PM EDT 
vertical line Clouds them say: Red sky at neet, shepherd's deleet; red skah in ma mornin', shep's arse on fire
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77264
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Reply from Woodsman
Dec.23.2007
04:01PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line I am the sky.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77269
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Reply from gebhart099
Dec.23.2007
08:04PM EDT 
Email gebhart099
vertical line Quote: " 

Quote: "There are 6 billion plus kinds of people. None of them are truly dependent. None of them are truly independent."
.........
So, you truely know all and every of them (6 billion plus kinds of people) and none of them are neither truely dependent nor truely independent, right?  If so, you are extremely good at knowing of people.

ChonTri is not as good as you are, he knows just a couple of kinds as he mentioned above.

.........
"
......... . Dependent or independent is a matter of perspective. 

Right.
What you are telling in your story is different from what ChonTri meant in his original post.

"
......... I am just not comfortable with trying to fit people into categories, saying either you are this or you are that.  ........
This might be the problem.

Did the original post say: A student is a student forever and he should be a dependent all the time in his lifetime?  A teacher?  A follower?  A leader?....

A student and a teacher depend on each other while they are a student or a teacher of their own.  If one of them is missing, the relationship student - teacher is no longer exist, then none of them is as a student or teacher as it were.  And this is what the original post meant.

Putting people or things into some kinds of groups or categories (as you termed) is just a way of speaking, to make it a little easier to follow and understand at some degree.  If you felt uncomfortable with it, then it would not be its problem.

"
......... I saw a tee shirt in a store today that I found humorous. It read:" There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who are good at math, and those who aren't." Thank you for your explanation.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77276
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Reply from Snibbler
Dec.23.2007
09:06PM EDT 
vertical line There are 10 kinds of people those that understand binary and those that don’t:)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77277
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Reply from gebhart099
Dec.23.2007
09:09PM EDT 
Email gebhart099
vertical line The only way to become truly independent is to eliminate all attachments so that one is not dominated by external circumstances.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77278
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Reply from Snibbler
Dec.23.2007
09:14PM EDT 
vertical line Hitler tried that...?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77279
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Reply from chontri
Dec.23.2007
09:53PM EDT 
Email chontri
vertical line Quote: "The only way to become truly independent is to eliminate all attachments so that one is not dominated by external circumstances. "
.........
Attachment is only over when one understands it as-it-is thoroughly.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77283
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Reply from -----0
Dec.24.2007
06:41AM EDT 
vertical line !
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Reply from gebhart099
Dec.24.2007
11:17AM EDT 
Email gebhart099
vertical line Quote: "Hitler tried that...? "
......... Hitler eliminated  a lot of other people's attachments......to their lives. He didn't eliminate his own nearly soon enough.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77289
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Reply from gebhart099
Dec.24.2007
11:27AM EDT 
Email gebhart099
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Quote: "Quote: "The only way to become truly independent is to eliminate all attachments so that one is not dominated by external circumstances. "
.........
Attachment is only over when one understands it as-it-is thoroughly.
"
......... The obvious attachments, such as to  possessions or  loved ones are hard enough to deal with. But it is the more subtle attachments that really cause problems.

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Reply from ______
Dec.24.2007
11:34AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Hitler tried that...? "
......... Hitler eliminated  a lot of other people's attachments......to their lives. He didn't eliminate his own nearly soon enough.
"
.........

No he didn't - the ones who believed in him did that. Hitler was an idiot who projected his inner turmoil outward onto the world. His followers, his victims and his enemies make him what he is.
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Reply from ______
Dec.24.2007
11:49AM EDT 
vertical line You can't "deal with attachments".
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77292
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Reply from Woodsman
Dec.24.2007
02:21PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Aces wild, poker.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77299
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Reply from gebhart099
Dec.24.2007
02:44PM EDT 
Email gebhart099
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Hitler tried that...? "
......... Hitler eliminated  a lot of other people's attachments......to their lives. He didn't eliminate his own nearly soon enough.
"
.........

No he didn't - the ones who believed in him did that. Hitler was an idiot who projected his inner turmoil outward onto the world. His followers, his victims and his enemies make him what he is.
"
......... Hitler was anything but an idiot. I won't speculate on his inner turmoil; I'm sure he had his share.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77302
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Reply from gebhart099
Dec.24.2007
02:46PM EDT 
Email gebhart099
vertical line Quote: "You can't "deal with attachments"."
......... Of course you can. To say you can't is just an excuse not to try.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77303
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Reply from Woodsman
Dec.24.2007
02:49PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Deal!
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Reply from Woodsman
Dec.24.2007
02:59PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Oh well, none to deal with.
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Reply from Woodsman
Dec.24.2007
03:30PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Dealing with none,
is no fun to just anyone
I am the lone standing sun
the clouds interrupt  giving through
from me, to me, into me, and out to you
in giving daily, is all of the same to undo the two
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77306
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Reply from ______
Dec.24.2007
04:19PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Hitler tried that...? "
......... Hitler eliminated  a lot of other people's attachments......to their lives. He didn't eliminate his own nearly soon enough.
"
.........

No he didn't - the ones who believed in him did that. Hitler was an idiot who projected his inner turmoil outward onto the world. His followers, his victims and his enemies make him what he is.
"
......... Hitler was anything but an idiot. I won't speculate on his inner turmoil; I'm sure he had his share.
"
.........

All conflict begins with an individual's inner turmoil being projected ouward, even world wars. And Hitlers provide fictions for other idiots to believe in. There are no anything buts.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77307
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Reply from ______
Dec.24.2007
04:24PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "You can't "deal with attachments"."
......... Of course you can. To say you can't is just an excuse not to try.
"
.........

I say you can't.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 77308
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Reply from gebhart099
Dec.24.2007
04:55PM EDT 
Email gebhart099
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Hitler tried that...? "
......... Hitler eliminated  a lot of other people's attachments......to their lives. He didn't eliminate his own nearly soon enough.
"
.........

No he didn't - the ones who believed in him did that. Hitler was an idiot who projected his inner turmoil outward onto the world. His followers, his victims and his enemies make him what he is.
"
......... Hitler was anything but an idiot. I won't speculate on his inner turmoil; I'm sure he had his share.
"
.........

All conflict begins with an individual's inner turmoil being projected ouward, even world wars. And Hitlers provide fictions for other idiots to believe in. There are no anything buts.
"
......... Hitler was in some ways a very gifted man. Unfortunately, the manner he used his gifts led to great suffering in the world. One of the reasons he was so successful is that so many of his opponents persisted in underestimating him,i.e. thought him an idiot. Few of us are nearly as smart as we think we are nor as stupid as others think us. The second part of your post that,"His followers, his victims, and his enemies make him  what he is." is  both a more accurate and interesting observation. The inverse is also true, that Hitler makes us who we are. If he had never been, we would not be who we are.  
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Reply from gebhart099
Dec.24.2007
05:06PM EDT 
Email gebhart099
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "You can't "deal with attachments"."
......... Of course you can. To say you can't is just an excuse not to try.
"
.........

I say you can't.
"
......... Ah, but you see, I already have dealt with(eliminated) some, though not all, of my attachments. And if I can, you can because I am you and you are me. We're just on opposite ends of a computer connection. It is said in the practice that one must have great doubt, great faith, and great determination. You seem to be supplying the first, I'm working on the second. Great determination hmmm..... I think I'll let you take care of that.
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Reply from ______
Dec.24.2007
05:06PM EDT 
vertical line Oh well, that's the mind for you, underestimating/overestimating, tsk - interesting.
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Reply from ______
Dec.24.2007
05:10PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "You can't "deal with attachments"."
......... Of course you can. To say you can't is just an excuse not to try.
"
.........

I say you can't.
"
......... Ah, but you see, I already have dealt with(eliminated) some, though not all, of my attachments. And if I can, you can because I am you and you are me. We're just on opposite ends of a computer connection. It is said in the practice that one must have great doubt, great faith, and great determination. You seem to be supplying the first, I'm working on the second. Great determination hmmm..... I think I'll let you take care of that.
"
.........

ok, noted.
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Reply from ______
Dec.25.2007
07:30AM EDT 
vertical line You just don't get it bub, do ya? ho ho ho
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Reply from gebhart099
Dec.30.2007
11:23AM EDT 
Email gebhart099
vertical line Quote: "You just don't get it bub, do ya? ho ho ho "
......... Of course not. There is nothing to get.
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Reply from Woodsman
Dec.30.2007
01:22PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line I got 13 hours of sleep last night and this morning. Now I've got to wake up. Then I've got to eat some cereal. Then I've got to get on the bike and go 12.3 miles. Then I've got to walk the dogs. But right now I have got to write my tea and stop drinking about it.
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Reply from ______
Dec.31.2007
10:02AM EDT 
vertical line Ok, 3rd course, but still he doesn't get it, not even a clue..vroom.
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Reply from ______
Jan.01.2008
10:18AM EDT 
vertical line Those "gots" aren't gets - geddit?
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