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  One day when P'ang layman (740-808)was selling bamboo baskets at the market place of Hung-chou.
Seeing a monk begging alms, he took out a cash and said:
-Can you tell me how to appreciate alms?
The monk had nothing to say.
P'ang... continue...

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e
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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: FRIEND
vertical line Posted on Jul.21.2008 @ 03:45AM EDT by fatnhappy
Hello my Peeps : )

First off the "friend" im talking about isnt me but a dear friend im currently living with .

To cut to the core of it her mind is scrambled and she is completely unfocused and in need of some kind of help with her constant over thinking and continuous mind that will not rest for her . I started my zen practicing for the same reason to help me calm this sense of urgency and horrible panic attacks . I know what she is going through and would like to help her on a path to wellness and inner peace . She comes from a rooted catholic back ground and does not want to convert to Buddhism . Ive found one book called

Zen for Christians by Kim Boykin ....and it seems alright I read though it a couple times and she does a great job explaining how to meditate and calm the mind but Im looking for something simple and strait forward without Buddhism or Christianity attached  .Something thats more of a zen teachings without the Buddhism or another religion attached . Im becoming very concerned for her as she is now taking heavy sedatives to go to sleep because she cant get her mind to quit at night and she feels uneasy often , If anyone has any Ideas for books or things I can do as I dont feel Im a teacher of zen paths , I would listen with clear mind and open heart ...Thanx good people .

FNH

Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email fatnhappy
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Reply from 9999999
Jul.21.2008
03:52AM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line what is she concerned about?  what does she want?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 83992
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Reply from fatnhappy
Jul.21.2008
04:22AM EDT 
Email fatnhappy
vertical line Every detail shes thinking about what shes going to wear on friday on sunday. She wants to feel healthy mentally .
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 83993
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Reply from lehish
Jul.21.2008
05:14AM EDT 
Email lehish
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for calming (changing body chemistry):

 'pranayama' instruction for shallow breathing

exersice

eating food which lowers body acidity ph

playfullness

laughing

observing

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 83994
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Reply from lehish
Jul.21.2008
05:16AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line * exercise
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 83995
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Reply from 9999999
Jul.21.2008
05:30AM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line go for a walk and play follow the leader

leader does something
follower mimics

whoever walks in front leads
skipping
clapping
singing
hoping
jumping
touching things
kissing
hugging
picking your nose
picking your butt
resting
breathing
get silly
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 83996
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Reply from 9999999
Jul.21.2008
05:31AM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line as for books, John Wheeler
www.thenaturalstate.org
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 83998
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Reply from lehish
Jul.21.2008
05:31AM EDT 
Email lehish
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Quote: "pranayama' instruction for shallow breathing'"
.........

pranayama instruction for ceasing shallow breathing

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 83997
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Reply from lehish
Jul.21.2008
05:32AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

Quote: "go for a walk and play follow the leader

leader does something
follower mimics

whoever walks in front leads
skipping
clapping
singing
hoping
jumping
touching things
kissing
hugging
picking your nose
picking your butt
resting
breathing
get silly
"
.........

:D

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 83999
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Jul.21.2008
07:29AM EDT 
vertical line Experiental is the essence of what WE are. Habitual is our way. Engulfed is an unfortunate result, BUT, habit is our saviour as much as it is our jailer. Play soccer, cook up new dishes, try a little wine. Love a little. Love living.Experiental is the essence.........
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84000
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Reply from ______
Jul.21.2008
08:03AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Experiental is the essence of what WE are. Habitual is our way. Engulfed is an unfortunate result, BUT, habit is our saviour as much as it is our jailer. Play soccer, cook up new dishes, try a little wine. Love a little. Love living.Experiental is the essence........."
.........

Experiential is not the essence of what we are. Experience is an inbetweeny. And I intended posting a response to the question.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84005
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Jul.21.2008
08:21AM EDT 
vertical line How would one know, how would anything be known without the experience had.I, WE, ME, YOU, THEM, US, bring 'YOUR' experience of existence outside of 'this' to the table.And when you do, let me know who it is that brings it.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84008
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Reply from ______
Jul.21.2008
08:26AM EDT 
vertical line What I bring to the table ain't it. Knowledge ain't it.
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Reply from ______
Jul.21.2008
08:34AM EDT 
vertical line Dear fatnhappy,

Do you really want to know what you can do to help your friend?Nothing. There is nothing you can do. You can be and she may be helped. You read through a book a couple of times but you don’t say if your friend read through the book that you found for her. The chemical cosh of heavy sedatives is a short fix and will eventually have to be jettisioned before they lead to stronger sedatives and she becomes a test-bed for medication - they interfere with any insight into the root of what is happening. You say your friend is from a rooted Catholic background but you don’t say what form her daily Christian life takes - does your friend know anything about the Christian contemplative life? Does she know there is no wrath in God? What is her approach to sleep? Does she prepare or does she take her anxiety to bed with her? Can she learn to lay herself down in peace and take her rest? Where is her God in this? Do you know what is bothering your friend apart from her telling you that she can’t stop her thoughts, that she feels anxious? When you say that you would like to help her on a path to wellness and inner peace, do you mean that she is to be restored to bodily and mental health? Does she feel unforgiven? If I said she is like a wave on a storm-tossed sea and that she could be grateful for the ride and watch what is happening, do you think she would thank you?


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Reply from IZIZIZ
Jul.21.2008
08:35AM EDT 
vertical line ?????ain't it?????? Sorry Rustic. Dialectical problem. From land down under. What does it mean generally?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84011
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Reply from ______
Jul.21.2008
09:00AM EDT 
vertical line Another apology?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84014
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Jul.21.2008
09:36AM EDT 
vertical line An 'I' can't bring anything other than something. When YOU are no longer I who brings anything anywhere?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84016
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Reply from Woodsman
Jul.21.2008
10:20AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Sometimes meditation and breath work intensifies problems. The ego identity has to be nurtured before it can be released.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84018
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Reply from ______
Jul.21.2008
03:19PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "An 'I' can't bring anything other than something. When YOU are no longer I who brings anything anywhere?"
.........

I am simply not here. 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84024
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Reply from -----0
Jul.21.2008
03:20PM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Every detail shes thinking about what shes going to wear on friday on sunday. She wants to feel healthy mentally . "
.........

She's right. It helps to be in terms with what one wears.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84025
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Reply from lehish
Jul.21.2008
03:36PM EDT 
Email lehish
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Quote: "Dear fatnhappy,

Do you really want to know what you can do to help your friend?Nothing. There is nothing you can do. You can be and she may be helped. You read through a book a couple of times but you don’t say if your friend read through the book that you found for her. The chemical cosh of heavy sedatives is a short fix and will eventually have to be jettisioned before they lead to stronger sedatives and she becomes a test-bed for medication - they interfere with any insight into the root of what is happening. You say your friend is from a rooted Catholic background but you don’t say what form her daily Christian life takes - does your friend know anything about the Christian contemplative life? Does she know there is no wrath in God? What is her approach to sleep? Does she prepare or does she take her anxiety to bed with her? Can she learn to lay herself down in peace and take her rest? Where is her God in this? Do you know what is bothering your friend apart from her telling you that she can’t stop her thoughts, that she feels anxious? When you say that you would like to help her on a path to wellness and inner peace, do you mean that she is to be restored to bodily and mental health? Does she feel unforgiven? If I said she is like a wave on a storm-tossed sea and that she could be grateful for the ride and watch what is happening, do you think she would thank you?


"
.........

I doesn't matter what thinks fnh about friend or not

friend could use information  for calming body alarm-panic

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84026
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Reply from lehish
Jul.21.2008
03:39PM EDT 
Email lehish
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Quote: "Sometimes meditation and breath work intensifies problems" .........

body ph acidic when fear...deep breathing-meditating changes ph

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84027
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Reply from shayne
Jul.21.2008
04:00PM EDT 
Email shayne
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their is no religion in concentrating on your breath. its a way to FOCUS the mind and get calmer. obvisouly shes struggeling with something inwardly.

so talk to her.

take care fnh

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Reply from 9999999
Jul.21.2008
04:47PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line l;aksdjfl;askdjfal;skdjf;alsdkfja;sldkfj;asdlkj
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84033
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Reply from 9999999
Jul.21.2008
06:03PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Experiental is the essence of what WE are. Habitual is our way. Engulfed is an unfortunate result, BUT, habit is our saviour as much as it is our jailer. Play soccer, cook up new dishes, try a little wine. Love a little. Love living.Experiental is the essence........."
.........

Experiential is not the essence of what we are. Experience is an inbetweeny. And I intended posting a response to the question.
"
.........

say something about that essence, would you?
would you say something more about inbetweeny too?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84034
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Reply from ______
Jul.21.2008
06:27PM EDT 
vertical line When you've finished scratching your butt, smell your finger and read this story about a man who pays a professor of prehistory a few thousand quid for a course of study in Neolithic pottery. On the first day, the prehistorian brings a jar in to the room, puts it on the table and leaves. The next day he does the same. On the third day, the student says, "Look here, I paid you a lot of good money to learn about Neolithic pottery and all you ever do is come in, plonk a jar down on the table and walk out! And by the way, that last one? It wasn't Neolithic!"

Now pick your knows and eat it.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84035
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Reply from Woodsman
Jul.21.2008
08:44PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Sometimes meditation and breath work intensifies problems" .........

body ph acidic when fear...deep breathing-meditating changes ph

"
.........

Sorry, ah, no.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84036
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Reply from shayne
Jul.21.2008
09:15PM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line

haahah you dont think so?

do you think it changes the blood pressure?

to me relaxation would.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84044
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Reply from shayne
Jul.21.2008
09:17PM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line the mind body connection can be pretty intense. alot changes with good meditation. energy patterns, stomach problems, ect.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84045
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Reply from 9999999
Jul.21.2008
09:31PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line it is imaginary
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84046
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Reply from shayne
Jul.21.2008
09:35PM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line i know for FACT i can change my heartrate just by thinking about it when on a  treadmill. proved it too some workers their. they said some people can.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84047
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Reply from shayne
Jul.21.2008
09:39PM EDT 
Email shayne
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i had my heartrate lowered to 79 bpm on a treadmill practically running. the legs get heavy though.

you have alot to learn padawan.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84048
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Reply from 9999999
Jul.21.2008
09:44PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line what's that?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84049
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Reply from shayne
Jul.21.2008
09:46PM EDT 
Email shayne
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everything. haha.

kid.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84050
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Reply from shayne
Jul.21.2008
10:06PM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line relaxation warms the body. it opens up the vessels and doesnt constrict them.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84051
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Reply from 9999999
Jul.21.2008
10:59PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line Quote: "relaxation warms the body. it opens up the vessels and doesnt constrict them."
.........

how do you know that?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84052
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Reply from 9999999
Jul.21.2008
11:00PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line Quote: "

everything. haha.

kid.

"
.........

what do you know for sure that I dont know for sure?


tell me everything you know that you think the padawan should know!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84053
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Reply from Woodsman
Jul.21.2008
11:40PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Books books books books and more books, to recommend to a friend, for everlasting mendship, or do good to lendship, your honor, my honor, the first cup to put on her is...

Full Catastrophe Living by Jon Kabat-Zinn




vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84055
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Reply from Woodsman
Jul.21.2008
11:45PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Quote: "

i had my heartrate lowered to 79 bpm on a treadmill practically running. the legs get heavy though.

you have alot to learn padawan.

"
.........

Yeah, and that's good, but, ah, the ph thing, ah no, just leave that one at 7.35 - 7.45.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84056
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Reply from lehish
Jul.22.2008
02:12AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Sometimes meditation and breath work intensifies problems" .........

body ph acidic when fear...deep breathing-meditating changes ph

"
.........

Sorry, ah, no.
"
.........

"
.........

Sorry, ah, no.
"
.........

maybe google ?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84057
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Jul.22.2008
06:11AM EDT 
vertical line Then denial exists. My comment was sufficiently yours, you simply not being there.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84058
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Jul.22.2008
06:19AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "An 'I' can't bring anything other than something. When YOU are no longer I who brings anything anywhere?"
.........

I am simply not here. 

"
.........

"
.........

Then denial exists. My comment was sufficiently yours, you simply not being there.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84059
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Reply from Woodsman
Jul.22.2008
06:51AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Sometimes meditation and breath work intensifies problems" .........

body ph acidic when fear...deep breathing-meditating changes ph

"
.........

Sorry, ah, no.
"
.........

"
.........

Sorry, ah, no.
"
.........

maybe google ?

"
.........

No, thanks. I'd rather invite my neighbor over for tea. Might sober him up. Or change his ph... Oop!
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Reply from ______
Jul.22.2008
07:53AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "An 'I' can't bring anything other than something. When YOU are no longer I who brings anything anywhere?"
.........

I am simply not here. 

"
.........

"
.........

Then denial exists. My comment was sufficiently yours, you simply not being there.

"
.........

There's no denying the idea of me.  But that's not who I am.  I don't live for me - I don't exist.  Although the kingdom of heaven is here, there and everywhere earth-sky boundless, time-space infinite, it remains unseen in the dream of individuality.  
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84063
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Jul.22.2008
08:10AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "An 'I' can't bring anything other than something. When YOU are no longer I who brings anything anywhere?"
.........

I am simply not here. 

"
.........

"
.........

Then denial exists. My comment was sufficiently yours, you simply not being there.

"
.........

There's no denying the idea of me.  But that's not who I am.  I don't live for me - I don't exist.  Although the kingdom of heaven is here, there and everywhere earth-sky boundless, time-space infinite, it remains unseen in the dream of individuality.  

"
.........

"
.........

I,I,I I,I. When I speaks, I also will hear from you. When I no longer speaks I won't hear you. If observant I may know your silence. Dreams are dreams. They exist within reality, and reality is the only existence.Non reality is only two words, thats all, and they exist within realty.

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Reply from ______
Jul.22.2008
08:17AM EDT 
vertical line How will you know the sound of that great bell
Too large for you to stir? Let but a flute
Play 'neath the fine-mixed metal: listen close
Till the right note flows forth, a silvery rill;
Then shall the huge bell tremble - then the mass
With myriad waves concurrent shall respond.

~George Eliot
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84065
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Reply from ______
Jul.22.2008
08:22AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Books books books books and more books, to recommend to a friend, for everlasting mendship, or do good to lendship, your honor, my honor, the first cup to put on her is...

Full Catastrophe Living by Jon Kabat-Zinn
"
.........

Dark Nights of the Soul: A Guide To Finding Your Way Through Life's Ordeals
[Thomas Moore]
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84066
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Reply from glorymind
Jul.22.2008
08:43AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Dear fatnhappy,

Does she know there is no wrath in God?
"
.........

No wrath, no love: no matter.

Existential angst?

Has she tried Prozac?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84067
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Jul.22.2008
08:54AM EDT 
vertical line

Living is simply an experience. Choose whilst your alive. Too late when 'you' finish. In- decision is drama.

You are reality itself. Therefore there is nothing to wait for. No reflection. Just 'is'. You are, or you are not, the experience you desire. The only yard-stick is doubt. Your sucess is your self 'confidence'.

Love you.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84069
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Reply from Snibbler
Jul.22.2008
12:16PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Living is simply an experience. Choose whilst your alive. Too late when 'you' finish. In- decision is drama.

You are reality itself. Therefore there is nothing to wait for. No reflection. Just 'is'. You are, or you are not, the experience you desire. The only yard-stick is doubt. Your sucess is your self 'confidence'.

Love you.

"
.........
Roeyh! This one was actually Good!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84074
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Reply from Snibbler
Jul.22.2008
12:25PM EDT 
vertical line PS! This might do the trick Fatnhappy, its actually rather motivating to read it.

....meditation manual, a nuts-and-bolts, step-by-step guide to Insight meditation. It is meant to be practical. It is meant for use.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84075
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Reply from ______
Jul.22.2008
12:41PM EDT 
vertical line Doing what he says is doing the trick. 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84077
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Reply from 9999999
Jul.22.2008
03:15PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line Quote:"

I,I,I I,I. When I speaks, I also will hear from you. When I no longer speaks I won't hear you. If observant I may know your silence. Dreams are dreams. They exist within reality, and reality is the only existence.Non reality is only two words, thats all, and they exist within realty.

"
.........


:D
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84086
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Reply from 9999999
Jul.22.2008
03:16PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line "why are you unhappy? because 99 percent of everything you think and everything you do is for yourself---and there isn't one."

wei wu wei
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84087
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Reply from 9999999
Jul.22.2008
03:20PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line
.........

There's no denying the idea of me.  But that's not who I am.  I don't live for me - I don't exist.  Although the kingdom of heaven is here, there and everywhere earth-sky boundless, time-space infinite, it remains unseen in the dream of individuality.  
"
.........

;D
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84088
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Reply from 9999999
Jul.22.2008
03:21PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line Quote: "Quote:"

I,I,I I,I. When I speaks, I also will hear from you. When I no longer speaks I won't hear you. If observant I may know your silence. Dreams are dreams. They exist within reality, and reality is the only existence.Non reality is only two words, thats all, and they exist within realty.

"
.........


:D
"
.........
oopsie
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84089
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Reply from fatnhappy
Jul.22.2008
11:09PM EDT 
Email fatnhappy
vertical line To lehish

Hi Leh missing you .

You are right . She does need soulnurishing and mindfulness of herself ...mind body and soul . Its hard to help someone to the path and then help them "see" thanx for the advice .
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Reply from ______
Jul.23.2008
08:01AM EDT 
vertical line Everybody needs someone to tell them what they need, eh?  
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84110
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Reply from Snibbler
Jul.23.2008
10:14AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "When you've finished scratching your butt, smell your finger and read this story about a man who pays a professor of prehistory a few thousand quid for a course of study in Neolithic pottery. On the first day, the prehistorian brings a jar in to the room, puts it on the table and leaves. The next day he does the same. On the third day, the student says, "Look here, I paid you a lot of good money to learn about Neolithic pottery and all you ever do is come in, plonk a jar down on the table and walk out! And by the way, that last one? It wasn't Neolithic!"

Now pick your knows and eat it.
"

This was very kewl, thanx! :)
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Reply from glorymind
Jul.23.2008
10:25AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Everybody needs someone to tell them what they need, eh?  "
.........

No: Truthfully, everybody needs to agree with me. Only then am we satisified.

And if not that, they need to deny the problems. Life is peachy.
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Reply from ______
Jul.23.2008
10:33AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Everybody needs someone to tell them what they need, eh?  "
.........

No: Truthfully, everybody needs to agree with me. Only then am we satisified.

And if not that, they need to deny the problems. Life is peachy.
"
.........

No: Truthfully you need everybody to agree with me. Until then, satisfaction is a Delayed Gratification Technique. And when not that, it and they don't exist.
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Reply from ______
Jul.23.2008
10:36AM EDT 
vertical line Truthfully: this is a yes.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84133
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Reply from lehish
Jul.23.2008
06:56PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

Quote: "Everybody needs someone to tell them what they need, eh?  "
.........

"everybody" ?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84140
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Reply from lehish
Jul.23.2008
07:05PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

(((fnh)))

yahoo pm id 'sahyo' :)

thanxxx

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 84141
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