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  Posted on Aug.11.2009 @ 08:05PM EDT by chontri
Different winds come from all directions. Some are clear, some carry dust,
some are cold or hot, fierce gales or gentle breezes. In the same way
sensations arise in the body... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: MAINTAINING NO-MIND IS EXHAUSTING
vertical line Posted on Aug.18.2008 @ 04:48PM EDT by Brainz
This is hard to explain. I'll do my best.

After meditating and studying for years, I only ever got glimpses of satori. After reading the Power of Now (by Eckhart Tolle), everything fell into place. It's as if I suddenly understood. I had no-mind; no thought in my mind, and I lived in the moment at will.

When this first happened, I spent two days 'cleaning my mind of thought'. Whenever I began to think, and I realized I was thinking, I would decide to not think.
After three days I was able to spend about an hour or two not thinking. That night I went to visit my friend, and we spoke about how phenomenol and life-changing the experience is.
By the end of the night, I had not spent more than 30 seconds at a time thinking.

The next day I had a horrible head ache. I felt like I had a hang over! I discovered that having no-mind is exhausting -- but it's also very precious.
Is there anything I can do to live my life free of ego? When I have no-mind, I have no ego. But to have no-mind is exhausting. How does one live without ego?

I also have college starting in two days. I don't want to be any much more mentally exhausted than I need to be after working..
...but living without ego is important to me.
Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email Brainz
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Reply from 9999999
Aug.18.2008
05:53PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line you might have me beat for the greediest man alive

freeing oneself of the ego is a greedy, self-centered, shameless activity and is just one more thing for this ego to do

is "i have an ego and need to rid myself of it" anything other than a presently arising idea(if anything)?

you already have no ego.  just stop pretending you have one

everything you think about and everything you do is for yourself--and there isnt one (so get used to it)
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Reply from 9999999
Aug.18.2008
05:58PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line errrrr  i meann keep working hard towards satori you might get it someday
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Aug.18.2008
05:58PM EDT 
vertical line What is the experience of this no-mind-ness?
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Reply from ______
Aug.18.2008
06:48PM EDT 
vertical line "Maintaining no mind is exhausting"?
"Living without ego is important to me"?

Is this a joke? No-mind isn’t ‘maintained’ by you. You don’t ‘have’ no-mind; you don’t ‘do’ no-mind. No-mind is when (your) ‘mind’ isn’t going out to an object, isn’t moving toward some thing. No-mind is when there is no idea of ‘you’; when the I-thought is absent. What you describe are thought processes doing stuff - “cleaning my mind of thought”. . .“I had not spent more than 30 seconds at a time thinking”. . .”able to spend an hour or two not thinking” etc. It’s why you feel like you have a “hangover”, “horrible headache”, and why your brain is exhausted with overwork. Your account is I-thought, of something you are doing. No-mind is inexpressible.
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Reply from Brainz
Aug.18.2008
07:45PM EDT 
Email Brainz
vertical line I'm confused. Why am I so greedy? I don't understand how wanting to be free of the ego is greedy and self-centered? Is it because it's a desire (the desire to be free of the ego)?

As I understand it, the ego is the part of a person that allows itself to be influenced by the external world. For example, if someone tells me I'm a bad man, and I'm affected by it, it's because I'm trapped by my ego. This is my understanding.

At times I'm affected by the outside world. If this is true.. howcome you can say that I already don't have an ego?
I find that most people are very much conditioned by society. I wish to unlearn what I've learned; some social conditioning that prevents me from self-improving.

What is this experience of no-mindedness? It's very hard to describe..
...but basically I have no thought in my head. I feel very calm, and the world seems infinitly beautiful to me.

I don't understand anything you've said Rustic. I feel that I've expressed myself horribly. Simply not having a thought in my mind is exhausting, that's what I meant.
I thought that by being a little metaphorical I would be understood.

I'm very confused: up until now I felt that I was on the right path. Everyone I had spoken to and asked questions to have been guiding me to this feeling, this awakening, this satori, this no-mind.
However you guys talk as if I'm going in the wrong direction. This is very confusing for me.
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Reply from Woodsman
Aug.18.2008
08:04PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Thoughts come in various shades of color, there are selfish ones, anger based ones, and altruistic ones. And each thought is attached to a feeling state, which attaches an identity, through habit and conditioning, and is fairly narrow. We are going past the "traditional" way of being, or thinking, into an area of the unknown, or even the unacceptable, to some, the majority. It's a metamorphosis.

Some of the discomfort that comes, through less linear thinking, is in itself a form of attachment, which to, can be released.

Tension headaches can be in response to change, the unfamiliar, and being younger involves more intense feelings. Being in the body takes us out of our heads. Relaxation and calm helps rest us in the freedom. Also service activities help deepen good karma.
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Reply from Snibbler
Aug.18.2008
08:40PM EDT 
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Sound like some sort of game of mindfullness.

Here is another view on ego.

We both agree on that the ego is "false", meaning not a "true" representation of our true self or something, ok? Then, lets say that the ego is a mask. For me, awarness is not getting ridd of the ego, but more like become aware of it. Becoming aware of ones ac(t)ing abbileties does not entail "stopping the performanse" kinda (at least not for me.) I can be the kindest of kind (and I am, yeayh!:), but sometimes I can not afford to be cuddly. (Heyyou, not you, the one behind you with the knife!) Other time I`m just true to my feelings, or rather lack of. For me there is no golal of becomming a Jesus or whatever, could be a rather victimising thingy:)

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Reply from ______
Aug.18.2008
08:43PM EDT 
vertical line Ok Brainz, sorry for any confusion but based on what you posted I have no way of knowing what you are talking about, so forget about what I wrote ('mind/no-mind' etc) - don't dwell on any of it for a moment.
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Reply from 9999999
Aug.18.2008
09:34PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line When my body formed and came out of my mother's womb, I did not know my name.  I did not come out saying "Hi mom, dad.  My name is Justin."  nor was I able to tell myself who I was.  Your parents had to tell me--or rather--program me.  What choice did I have?  My body is like a computer in a way that it just responds and reacts to things.  My parents said, "You are Justin. I am mom, and this is your dad." and I responded, "I am Justin.  Hi mom. Hi dad."  They trained rewarded me for being "good" and punished me for being "bad".  That is the story I told myself and everyone from then on out.  When I met new people, applied for schools, applied for jobs, etc., I told them my name, about my parents, my accomplishments, my experiences, my possessions, the places I've been, my beliefs, and my interests.

Was I born?  This body at one level is just food, and at another level, just energy, and at another level, just space.  I eat in order to stay alive.  I can eat either meat or plants(fruits/veggies/grains) but basically the energy comes from the sun.  The meat that I eat came from an animal that fed on plants, or an animal that feed on an animal that fed on plants.  The plants take in energy from the sun and store it.  But what about the days when this body was in the womb?  My mom had to eat nearly twice as much food to provide the energy and material for atoms and molecules to be arranged in such a way to form a body.  The energy used to form my body came from the energy produced in the energy produced by colliding particles in the vacuum of space (I’ll leave it to you to trace it back as far as you like.).   

Even atoms and the particles therein are mostly space.  The formation of the body is much like the formation of an ice cube.  Water, given certain circumstances(temperature) will form into a solid until there is no longer enough energy to sustain that formation and it will melt back into—you guessed it—water.  Was it anything OTHER than H2O before it formed into an ice cube, during, or after?  

Even all this talk about chemistry, biology, and physics is hearsay as far as I am concerned.  It is all what they tell me and program me with.  I have no way of telling myself here and now on my own that I was created by God or I evolved from a process started long ago during the formation of the universe.  Both are beliefs.

I am not the thought “I exist.” I am not the sense “I exist.” Yet, the entire panorama of perception (thoughts, sounds, sensations, and images) is registered ceaselessly.

Consider:
What am I?

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Reply from Brainz
Aug.18.2008
10:41PM EDT 
Email Brainz
vertical line So these 'headaches' I have after not thinking all day.. they are normal? They're called "tension headaches"?

Thanks Snibber. I agree: the ego is like a mask. I don't remember where the quote is from, but someone told me "the biggest trick the ego ever played was making you think that he was you". I feel as if, before embarking on my self-improvement journey, this was true for me: I believed that I was the ego.
I think the quote is from the movie "Revolver".

Your point was made clear Justin, thanks! However my self-improvement journey can be confusing at times and I change so rapidly that I no longer know who I am.
Now my lifes' questions have become:

- Who am I?
- What am I?

How does one know who or what one is? I have a deep sense that I'm merely consciousness, like an eye looking at the world through a human body.
Zen seemed simple to me yesterday. Now I'm confused.

Thanks again everyone! Your responses are appreciated! :)
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Reply from Woodsman
Aug.18.2008
11:07PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line The measure at hand is to do good in school, forgetting the ego through study.
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Reply from 9999999
Aug.18.2008
11:10PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line see if the rubber meets the road
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Reply from ______
Aug.19.2008
05:39AM EDT 
vertical line There you are, see, you're on a journey of self-improvement - so keep asking yourself the question, "Who am I?" Perhaps you will improve enough for the I-thought to disappear and realise there isn't anything to improve on. But why are you asking these questions when you have had a "glimpse of satori?" Perhaps you could also ask yourself how it is that having no thoughts, and maintaining what you call no-mind is so exhausting? Maybe therein lies a clue.
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Aug.19.2008
05:39AM EDT 
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Tension headaches can come from being anxious and a massive desire to suceed.

You probably dont sleep well either. Wake up after short stints and the mind starts racing.

The fact that you were able to describe your experience of no-mind-ness confirms that your mind was fully engaged at the time.

No-mind-ness is not what you have you have been told or imagined it to be therefore you have been chasing your tail.

This has compounded the headache issue.

Your doin your head in trying not to think.

Relax Max.

Learn that experience.

Reality is mind.

Where you gonna go?

Go within to shed the skin.

Just sit. Do not meditate.

Sit and look at reality.

Let me know when you discover what your looking at.

But let what your looking at tell me instead.

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Reply from ______
Aug.19.2008
06:24AM EDT 
vertical line Hey, look at this - man I'm back man, so exhausted - exhausted when it got it to bed horizontal at about 3.00 am and laid it down. Then it’s up and driving someone to the railway station to catch a train. Now it's home, it’s exhausted and it's lost its appetite; it's so exhausted I can’t think, mmnnffph can’t string two bblib bib thoughts to szzmmnll binzghlgh rrsrtschmurxyh
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Reply from lehish
Aug.19.2008
10:57PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line open the windows
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Reply from ______
Aug.20.2008
07:37AM EDT 
vertical line You can use this precis - add it to you cv:
You had your glimpses of satori and then it all fell into place, as if you suddenly understood. Everyone you spoke to said you were on the right path - zen was simple then - it’s the pains inside your head that worry you. After a couple of exchanges on an internet message board, suddenly you’re confused, zen doesn’t seem to be simple any longer, you wonder if you are now going in the wrong direction and you don’t understand. And then there's the “living without the ego is important to me” line - a line any stand-up philosopher would be proud of.
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Reply from glorymind
Aug.20.2008
08:01AM EDT 
vertical line Sounds like living without suffering. Tried prozac?
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Reply from ______
Aug.20.2008
08:05AM EDT 
vertical line Recommending it or just peddling it?
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Reply from ______
Aug.20.2008
08:11AM EDT 
vertical line Prozac got your tongue?
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Reply from glorymind
Aug.20.2008
08:15AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Prozac got your tongue?"
.........

To be honest, I think he's talking about anxiety and the whole "self-consciousness" / "self-questioning" thing. One might be able to get rid of it. But it might take something... maybe something chemical? I dunno.

... Tried speed/ritalin?

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Reply from ______
Aug.20.2008
08:21AM EDT 
vertical line Slow down. Keed spills passers-by.
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Aug.20.2008
08:34AM EDT 
vertical line

There is a saying that goes like this:

The hardest thing about doing anything is thinking about it.

Do you find thinking about satori, mind-full-ness, no-mind-ness, having your legs crossed correctly for meditation and so on, something a little hard to do?

Does it give you a head ache?

Do you find that 'you' get head aches?

Your brainz might be in your head all hurting and that, but where is mind?

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Reply from ______
Aug.20.2008
10:08AM EDT 
vertical line Brainz Strainz.
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Reply from ______
Aug.20.2008
10:30AM EDT 
vertical line the rainz in brainz
flailz mainly
from ze
plainz

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Reply from ______
Aug.20.2008
12:52PM EDT 
vertical line ze rainz in ze brainz
soundingz mainly
in ze strainz

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Reply from Lynnoh
Aug.20.2008
12:54PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
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Quote: "ze rainz in ze brainz
soundingz mainly
in ze strainz

"
.........

hhahaha :) like I got reading post  ohhhhhh ohhhhhhh   hahaha

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Reply from Lynnoh
Aug.20.2008
01:06PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line are you still mantaining?
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Reply from ______
Aug.20.2008
01:10PM EDT 
vertical line Full on.
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Reply from ______
Aug.20.2008
01:13PM EDT 
vertical line Alive-oh!
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Reply from Lynnoh
Aug.20.2008
01:18PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line hahahaha
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Reply from Lynnoh
Aug.20.2008
01:21PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
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Quote: "Alive-oh!"
.........

oh where oh where has Rustic gone oh where oh where can he be?

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Reply from ______
Aug.20.2008
01:22PM EDT 
vertical line heheheh yeah it still blazes still.
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Reply from Lynnoh
Aug.20.2008
01:28PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line ohhhhhh floating  oh
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Reply from Lynnoh
Aug.20.2008
01:31PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line umm  the rainz in the plainz stayz mainly in the plainz hahahahaaha
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Reply from Lynnoh
Aug.20.2008
01:33PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line oh my  hahahaha
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Reply from Lynnoh
Aug.20.2008
01:35PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line :)
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Reply from ______
Aug.20.2008
02:19PM EDT 
vertical line :)

Reply affected by:

//Network Error

An error occurred while accessing "zenguide.com".

The Server did not respond within a certain time. Maybe the server is down.

(Network Error #-1001)//


//Safari can’t open the page.
Safari could not open the page “http://zenguide.com/forum/post.cfm” because the server is not responding.//

now I must go
bye Lynnoh
:)
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Reply from Antithesis
Aug.20.2008
05:19PM EDT 
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Even seeking "no mind" can become attachment.

One could stop attachment to EVEN THAT and just let it happen.

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Reply from Antithesis
Aug.20.2008
05:19PM EDT 
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Even seeking "no mind" can become attachment.

One could stop attachment to EVEN THAT and just let it happen.

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Reply from Brainz
Aug.20.2008
05:38PM EDT 
Email Brainz
vertical line lol you guys are something unique! hahahaha XD
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Reply from 9999999
Aug.20.2008
06:27PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line letting go and letting it happen is something 'you' start to do

you're basically screwed!
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Reply from Woodsman
Aug.20.2008
10:50PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line The letting go involves a kind of impetus, which is usually pretty intense, mind, soul and body. Unless you don't believe in it. In which case, you wouldn't be here.
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Reply from immortal 1
Aug.21.2008
06:47AM EDT 
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Making thinking stop is double duty.  First thinking about not thinking, and then disciplining yourself not to think, is thinking and not thinking at the same time.

What is there is the absence of thinking?  Is this not the natural state of mind?

Thinking is doing.  Not thinking should be not doing, not 'thinking not-thinking'.

Discipline doesn't work.  Laziness is better for not-thinking.

You are making it hard because you think thinking is the natural state of mind.  It isn't.  You've just been doing it for as long as you can remember.

If you let yourself be lazy and relax, you will stop making 'thinking' and what will be left is your natural state of mind: 'not-thinking, just  being'.

Its really very nice.  And once you get there you can go there any time.  It is like a retreat within yourself.

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Reply from Snibbler
Aug.21.2008
07:13AM EDT 
vertical line I could attack you on the street out of nowhere, and as you`re despratly fending for you`re life I`d suddenly stop and say "Thats it!"
And then I`ll follow up with "And now you lost it!"
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Reply from ______
Aug.21.2008
07:28AM EDT 
vertical line "Lazy" isn't it. "A retreat within yourself" isn't it.
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Reply from ______
Aug.21.2008
07:29AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "I could attack you on the street out of nowhere, and as you`re despratly fending for you`re life I`d suddenly stop and say "Thats it!"
And then I`ll follow up with "And now you lost it!"
"

.........
Yeah yeah, ok.
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Aug.21.2008
07:35AM EDT 
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What, where, how, which, who, why, when, whatever, IS NOT MIND?????????????????????????????????????????

You are all forgetting the paradox.

Its called IS.

You may not be the 'I', and experience 'IS' as 'IS', but, but, but, E X P E R I E N C E it is no matter what.

You are and will always be EXPERIENCE itself, both consciously and in the unconscious.

Not you nor anyone or anything can tell me otherwise.

Know the unconscious.

Diversionistas.

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Reply from ______
Aug.21.2008
07:38AM EDT 
vertical line What are you talking about this time? You're the paradox, you, the you. Paradox. The character in the dream and the source of the dream. And the paradox keeps on pointing the finger outside at the other in the brother. Paradox.
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Aug.21.2008
09:01AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

What, where, how, which, who, why, when, whatever, IS NOT MIND?????????????????????????????????????????

You are all forgetting the paradox.

Its called IS.

You may not be the 'I', and experience 'IS' as 'IS', but, but, but, E X P E R I E N C E it is no matter what.

You are and will always be EXPERIENCE itself, both consciously and in the unconscious.

Not you nor anyone or anything can tell me otherwise.

Know the unconscious.

Diversionistas.

"
.........

"
.........

Thinking and being cannot be separated.

Let me know if you can do it.

This is what I mean.

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Reply from ______
Aug.21.2008
09:06AM EDT 
vertical line The important thing is not to think much,
but to love much;
and so, do that which best stirs you to love.

~Saint Teresa of Avila

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Reply from ______
Aug.21.2008
09:07AM EDT 
vertical line In the pursuit of learning,
every day something is acquired.
in the pursuit of Tao,
every day something is dropped.

~Lao Tzu
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