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  A student asked:
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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: SOCIETY AND DESIRE
vertical line Posted on Aug.26.2008 @ 06:55PM EDT by Mslapik
I've noticed that many societies have very different expectations for people, and therefore the people begin to have those expectations as well. From this it is easy to see that the expectations we have for ourselves and others are quite arbitrary and simply represent the view of the society. However, could one say that there is a fundamental desire to fit into society.  Why isn't this true? (I realize that this is an entirely conceptual question, but zen practice is half philosophy) 
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Reply from Woodsman
Aug.26.2008
08:53PM EDT 
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vertical line Being a misfit myself coincides with the artist temperament, and not fitting in basically began in childhood primarily stemming from my father's failure to provide spiritual direction. My mother provided me with love and acceptance, even through my crazy rebellion. I no longer blame my father, but hold his memory in honor and with compassion, acting with an unwitnessed compassion to no other one but the field of consciousness.

Social pressures to conform to the norm stem primarily from one generation to the next one down, unless where common sense is involved, and dealing with the basics of need.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 85476
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Reply from Woodsman
Aug.26.2008
11:53PM EDT 
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vertical line Maslow's hierarchy goes a long way at explaining  why we turn out on the level we do, stuck sometimes, but going through a progression of  needs generally increases the cost of selflessness reaching into the realms of the gods, who may have their own tests of validation, until we reach a place of peace, free of conditional behavior... from there everything can become a teacher.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 85487
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Reply from Snibbler
Aug.27.2008
07:38AM EDT 
vertical line So we ultimately seeks self realization?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 85491
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Aug.27.2008
08:03AM EDT 
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I feel that you may be talking about habitual experiences.

Know them to be.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 85493
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Reply from Woodsman
Aug.27.2008
10:35AM EDT 
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vertical line Quote: "So we ultimately seeks self realization? "
.........

It all depends on what level of the pyramid we're on. Self-actualization needs depend on meeting  the basic needs first. Of course if you have achieved a measure of actualization the lower stages no longer matter, if one does in truth actualize. And there is plenty of social force keeping actualization suppressed, delusion rules as a false messiah.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 85497
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Reply from lowtotem
Aug.27.2008
08:51PM EDT 
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quote: but zen practice is half philosophy

New to the board, but this seems to be the first disconnect in this question. Zen has very little to do with philosophy, or hierarchies of arbitrary origin, at least in my opinion.  Zen is a tradition within the Mahayana tradition.  Even if we aren't monks, we all have to leave home in some fashion.  Moving away from society's expectations seems to be the first step.  Moving away from our own expectations for ourselves may be a more profitable possibility to investigate.  "Hua Tuo" is a powerful koan to consider.  Who am I.  The answer to that solves most of these issues.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 85507
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Reply from 9999999
Aug.27.2008
11:50PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line who asks such a stupid question
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 85516
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Reply from Woodsman
Aug.27.2008
11:51PM EDT 
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vertical line snibbler
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 85517
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Reply from 9999999
Aug.27.2008
11:56PM EDT 
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vertical line cant be snibbler---
snibbler is chained up in the basement with granny!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 85518
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Reply from Woodsman
Aug.28.2008
03:17AM EDT 
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vertical line oh yeah, I forgot about that, and everything else.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 85521
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Reply from 9999999
Aug.28.2008
05:56AM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line :D:D:D:D
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 85523
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Reply from lehish
Aug.28.2008
07:28AM EDT 
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Quote: "oh yeah, I forgot about that, and everything else. "
.........

remembered there was as if an "everything else" which forgot ?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 85524
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Aug.28.2008
07:44AM EDT 
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Quote: "Being a misfit myself coincides with the artist temperament, and not fitting in basically began in childhood primarily stemming from my father's failure to provide spiritual direction. My mother provided me with love and acceptance, even through my crazy rebellion. I no longer blame my father, but hold his memory in honor and with compassion, acting with an unwitnessed compassion to no other one but the field of consciousness.

Social pressures to conform to the norm stem primarily from one generation to the next one down, unless where common sense is involved, and dealing with the basics of need.
"
.........

Know that 'IS' is all. Including you. Is Is Is ! ? The paradox. Live and let live. Be and let be.

Payout every now and again if you like. Call that forgetfullness.

But then smack yourself back to the visible/invisible tightrope.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 85526
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Reply from Lynnoh
Aug.28.2008
12:24PM EDT 
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vertical line Quote: "

quote: but zen practice is half philosophy

New to the board, but this seems to be the first disconnect in this question. Zen has very little to do with philosophy, or hierarchies of arbitrary origin, at least in my opinion.  Zen is a tradition within the Mahayana tradition.  Even if we aren't monks, we all have to leave home in some fashion.  Moving away from society's expectations seems to be the first step.  Moving away from our own expectations for ourselves may be a more profitable possibility to investigate.  "Hua Tuo" is a powerful koan to consider.  Who am I.  The answer to that solves most of these issues.

"
.........

"
.........

whoa!  big light!

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 85530
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Reply from Lynnoh
Aug.28.2008
12:26PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
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Quote: "cant be snibbler---
snibbler is chained up in the basement with granny!
"
.........

didn't know what "chained to the basement was" until this morning when the daughter woke she said "chained to the basement... having to work"  sooo hmmmm well what do ya know

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 85531
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Reply from Lynnoh
Aug.28.2008
12:27PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
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Quote: "oh yeah, I forgot about that, and everything else. "
.........

and yeah wrote "there was a discussion about desries this morning (yesterday) but then erased it...guess not well enough....  ????

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 85532
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Reply from Lynnoh
Aug.28.2008
12:28PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "oh yeah, I forgot about that, and everything else. "
.........

and yeah wrote "there was a discussion about desries this morning (yesterday) but then erased it...guess not well enough....  ????

"
.........  oh yeah... forgot..and wrote but forgot what it was about.... :)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 85533
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Reply from Lynnoh
Aug.28.2008
12:47PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "cant be snibbler---
snibbler is chained up in the basement with granny!
"
.........

didn't know what "chained to the basement was" until this morning when the daughter woke she said "chained to the basement... having to work"  sooo hmmmm well what do ya know

"
.........

"
.........

didn't have to ask

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 85539
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