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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: CONSIDERING SHUTTING DOWN THE FORUM FOR GOOD
vertical line Posted on Sep.16.2008 @ 12:42PM EDT by the alan

I have been contemplating shutting the forum down for good.

Over the past few months, I spent too much time deleting posts, emailing users, deleting accounts of repeat offenders who can't follow simple rules. What's worst is that there are no more than 10 active members on here. Many newcomers disappear after a few postings, thanks largely to unhelpful or cryptic replies.

What really made me consider this drastic move strongly is that I have recently deleted many of Woodsman's posts for violating simple guidelines as well as sarcastic comments towards me. I have asked him to stop or move on to another forum. He stopped for a day or two then back at it. If a long-time member can't follow a few simple requests, I am out of ideas.

I am sorry, but I simply don't have time for this. I am not interested in discussing "zen" or whatever with you for many reasons, time being one. There is no need to involve me or mention my name in sarcasm or provoke me or snipe at me. If I deleted your post, I used my best judgement based on the simple guidelines provided or someone here find it offensive. Given that we are all adults here, I counted on the fact that we can be reasonable and police ourselves. These observations are obviously not appicable to everyone.

I am going to leave this forum up for a few more weeks. If I see things change in earnest and I don't have to spend time where I don't need to, I will leave it running; otherwise, I am simply out of patience.

Alan


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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.16.2008
12:52PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line wow ...
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Reply from m0rl0ck
Sep.16.2008
01:46PM EDT 
vertical line After just registering and coming here to read the forum, I can understand why you would want to shut it down. I have never seen gathered in one place so much pseudo zen claptrap. The danger of course is that some newbie might come along and actually follow the advice of one if these mis informed arrogant fools. 
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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.16.2008
01:57PM EDT 
vertical line Alan,

Please don't shut down the forum. I will leave, I'm just a brat. Thanks for having me, even with my faults, thus far. So here it is, the end of my rants. Peace... literally, really.
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Reply from Bluerose
Sep.16.2008
02:03PM EDT 
vertical line I understand your frustration. I am involved in many boards and this one is hard work. Everything you say is true. The lack of respect here for each other is amazing. I hope others pay attention to what you said. I suppose we will have to wait and see.
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Reply from 9999999
Sep.16.2008
04:06PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line show us the right way with honesty
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 86567
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Reply from 9999999
Sep.16.2008
04:33PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line Zenguide, A place
- Where one can post whatever, whenever, and however
- where there isn’t a hidden agenda to extract money from one’s wallet
- where people don’t tell others what they want to hear
- where one is forced to see how foolish he is despite how cleverly his posts are crafted
- where one may be purged of accumulated ideas
- where people may be honest with themselves (and thus others)
- where beliefs aren’t pushed, but pulled away
All at Alan’s expense ^_^

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Reply from the alan
Sep.16.2008
04:55PM EDT 
Email the alan
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Quote: "Zenguide, A place
- Where one can post whatever, whenever, and however
- where there isn’t a hidden agenda to extract money from one’s wallet
- where people don’t tell others what they want to hear
- where one is forced to see how foolish he is despite how cleverly his posts are crafted
- where one may be purged of accumulated ideas
- where people may be honest with themselves (and thus others)
- where beliefs aren’t pushed, but pulled away
All at Alan’s expense ^_^

"
.........

You can do all of the above or none of the above as long as you follow the posting guidelines and rules, write your comments coherently and respectfully, that is all. Try going to nearly any other forum for any subject matter and you'll see that these are pretty common and easy to follow requirements.  I rarely get involved in discussions and have let this forum run for 8 years with very minimal administrative involvement until recently. I don't mind dealing with craps minimally, but when something like this seems to lose integrity and visitors, I'll have to revisit my spent time.

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Reply from lehish
Sep.16.2008
08:40PM EDT 
Email lehish
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a/an

are you wanting a forum which is just for information and discussing ?...there are forums which provide that...most people  use them for  socializing-attention-entertainment (avoidance)...zenguide has been the exception, an unique forum which challenging hasn't been condemed as if is seprated dancing...do you want to cater to which most peope want, at the expense of honesty ?...you want people posting tippytoeing, always attempting sweet, polite, instead honesty ? ....if people want information it can easily be found googling...if they want discussing there are alot of forums for discussing

don't see what isn't liked about some woodsman posting...though woodsman uniqness may stand out, isn't wrong...woodsman isn't ok as is ?

zenguide isn't ok as is ?

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Reply from shayne
Sep.16.2008
08:45PM EDT 
Email shayne
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me personally.

i like zenguide.

i kinda feel people need to stay on track.

or pay attention more to the orgional posting.

beyond this.........good for me.

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Reply from the alan
Sep.16.2008
09:23PM EDT 
Email the alan
vertical line Quote: "

a/an

are you wanting a forum which is just for information and discussing ?...there are forums which provide that...most people  use them for  socializing-attention-entertainment (avoidance)...zenguide has been the exception, an unique forum which challenging hasn't been condemed as if is seprated dancing...do you want to cater to which most peope want, at the expense of honesty ?...you want people posting tippytoeing, always attempting sweet, polite, instead honesty ? ....if people want information it can easily be found googling...if they want discussing there are alot of forums for discussing

don't see what isn't liked about some woodsman posting...though woodsman uniqness may stand out, isn't wrong...woodsman isn't ok as is ?

zenguide isn't ok as is ?

"
.........

"
.........

First off, "a/an" is my signature. I used to use it, but not any more. Using it is mocking at best.

It's not about tip-toeing around the topic, refer to what I said above ... follow the rules, it's THAT simple. You can argue all you want about "zen" and how it's not applicable to "rules", but spare me the antics. You KNOW better than  "you want people posting tippytoeing, always attempting sweet, polite, instead honesty". This particular line of your comment is patronizing at best. I want to keep the forum up and running, but not with the mumble jumbles. It's not like talking face-to-face. If I can't understand what you are saying, it's not helpful. If you are sarcastic, it's not helpful. If you are cannot communicate your idea, save it. There's a fine line between ironic "zen" replies and just plane dumb answers and that line has been crossed way too many times. This forum is meant to create a community with respect and supportive attitudes. When nearly every newcomer leaves after a few postings, the it loses its purpose. I didn't create this for 10 people use it as a playground.

As for Woodsman, I didn't ask him to leave. I told him to stop doing certain things that I considered inappropriate and/or just a waste of my time (see original post). He opted to leave instead of stopping. Again, I DO NOT have time for this.

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Reply from 9999999
Sep.16.2008
09:36PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line "You get what you want....Old Greg gets what he wants: a strong man to old me at night, when it's rainin' outside."

These things come at a price. It is no real cost to me to stay within his guidelines. Let's go for it.
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Reply from etcetra
Sep.17.2008
04:51AM EDT 
vertical line I think it's important that for someone who is new, Zen and Bhuddism can be easily misunderstood.. and it's important not to take things too personally, not to think that these people are trying to belittle or hurt others. Also if anyone really wants to get information, there are websites out there, and they can seek out people, they need to realize that they might not be acquiring correct information about zen in the forum.
I am not sure if this will help but maybe you can separate the forum in different categories.. so that there is one category specifically for newbie postings and one for more experienced users. That way you can set the rules for newbie category as strictly informational, and require people to practice 'common courtesy' to avoid misunderstanding. And maybe have some "warnings" if you are posting in the more experienced section.
After all there are about 10 people who care about it enough to post here and have fun doing so, there is no harm in that.
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Reply from immortal 1
Sep.17.2008
05:40AM EDT 
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If someone is new to Zen and they come to this site the resources are fantastic.

But if they come to the Forum, they will probably be discouraged.

Most here are not Zen Monks.  There is no particular requirement to be a Zen Monk.  One need only to be at some point on the path of self-realization.

I came here after awakening, hoping to find others who also had become awakened.  I have met some. like your father, and it has helped me to live with understanding.

I am grateful for the benefit that this site has provided to me.  Thank you.

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Reply from lehish
Sep.17.2008
08:13AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

a/an

are you wanting a forum which is just for information and discussing ?...there are forums which provide that...most people  use them for  socializing-attention-entertainment (avoidance)...zenguide has been the exception, an unique forum which challenging hasn't been condemed as if is seprated dancing...do you want to cater to which most peope want, at the expense of honesty ?...you want people posting tippytoeing, always attempting sweet, polite, instead honesty ? ....if people want information it can easily be found googling...if they want discussing there are alot of forums for discussing

don't see what isn't liked about some woodsman posting...though woodsman uniqness may stand out, isn't wrong...woodsman isn't ok as is ?

zenguide isn't ok as is ?

"
.........

"
.........

First off, "a/an" is my signature. I used to use it, but not any more. Using it is mocking at best.

It's not about tip-toeing around the topic, refer to what I said above ... follow the rules, it's THAT simple. You can argue all you want about "zen" and how it's not applicable to "rules", but spare me the antics. You KNOW better than  "you want people posting tippytoeing, always attempting sweet, polite, instead honesty". This particular line of your comment is patronizing at best. I want to keep the forum up and running, but not with the mumble jumbles. It's not like talking face-to-face. If I can't understand what you are saying, it's not helpful. If you are sarcastic, it's not helpful. If you are cannot communicate your idea, save it. There's a fine line between ironic "zen" replies and just plane dumb answers and that line has been crossed way too many times. This forum is meant to create a community with respect and supportive attitudes. When nearly every newcomer leaves after a few postings, the it loses its purpose. I didn't create this for 10 people use it as a playground.

As for Woodsman, I didn't ask him to leave. I told him to stop doing certain things that I considered inappropriate and/or just a waste of my time (see original post). He opted to leave instead of stopping. Again, I DO NOT have time for this.

"
.........

"
.........

it was mocking when it wasn't known you don't use the signature anymore ?

wasn't saying tip-toeing around the topic ...was asking if you want people to 'think' about how the posts are written when writing them, so you won't threaten to ban them or close zenguide...is very much like some parents treat children is it not ? ...the way the posts are written is ok if are written according to which is expectated (conditional)

this isn't being argued

don't understand what you mean "patronizing" ?

"sarcastic" wasn't happening so don't know what you're talking about

also don't know what is meant by "ironic zen replies" ?

so you expect woodsman to conform to the way you think he should write ? ...what you're asking is that he not post natural but intead post the way you want

the people you're attempting controlling, post creatively and not sucking up to be liked (accepted) so they won't be accused of stuff like you posted saying lehish was posting, when wasn't

why can't this forum be allowed to be unique instead imitating the  games of conformity like on many forums ?

you're requesting people to not post 'spontaneous' (playful) but to 'think' about writing the posts the way you want, so people will feel 'comfortable'...am not saying that's wrong, but maybe you don't see that what you're requesting and using banning or closing the fourm as a threat, if the request isn't adhered to, is attempting 'controlling'

ok

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Reply from lehish
Sep.17.2008
08:15AM EDT 
Email lehish
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Quote: ""You get what you want....Old Greg gets what he wants: a strong man to old me at night, when it's rainin' outside."

These things come at a price. It is no real cost to me to stay within his guidelines. Let's go for it.
"
.........

hahaha

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Reply from lehish
Sep.17.2008
08:17AM EDT 
Email lehish
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Quote: "I think it's important that for someone who is new, Zen and Bhuddism can be easily misunderstood.. and it's important not to take things too personally, not to think that these people are trying to belittle or hurt others. Also if anyone really wants to get information, there are websites out there, and they can seek out people, they need to realize that they might not be acquiring correct information about zen in the forum.
I am not sure if this will help but maybe you can separate the forum in different categories.. so that there is one category specifically for newbie postings and one for more experienced users. That way you can set the rules for newbie category as strictly informational, and require people to practice 'common courtesy' to avoid misunderstanding. And maybe have some "warnings" if you are posting in the more experienced section.
After all there are about 10 people who care about it enough to post here and have fun doing so, there is no harm in that.
"
.........

:D

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Reply from Bluerose
Sep.17.2008
08:38AM EDT 
vertical line "If someone is new to Zen and they come to this site the resources are fantastic. But if they come to the Forum, they will probably be discouraged." This is true. I have checked out quite a lot on this site. But a few of the links don't work. It might be in need of an update.
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Reply from etcetra
Sep.17.2008
08:53AM EDT 
vertical line "If someone is new to Zen and they come to this site the resources are fantastic. But if they come to the Forum, they will probably be discouraged."
nothing wrong with being discouraged, maybe it motivates people to actually go to temples and seek a teacher or maybe zen is just not for them :).
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Reply from etcetra
Sep.17.2008
08:55AM EDT 
vertical line Besides why take things so seriously, were people really that offended when they first visited the forum? i wasnt.
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Reply from 9999999
Sep.17.2008
12:11PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line when I first found the forum I nearly died laughing.

I remember the first post I read-- it was by woodsman:

something like

in the beginning was the word..
apple
and the apple haveth no taste..
until i bit into it.
and i thought
this is good! how can it be apple?

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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.17.2008
01:23PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
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been Grandma these days..not just to grandson but to a nieghborhood of children..playing..running around in the playground throwing tiny stones at each other...like tag..all in fun but there was a few times I had to mention I'd heard what was said or knew the intention or had to say stop... it is suppose to be fun not harmful. The kids were playing in the house playing shooting..the energy was of so much fun the kids were laughing and playing really enjoying themselves... but a few times I got uncomfortable..never got the kids toy guns before because I'd believed in not to but the daughter has differring veiws...being respectful to those..and the kids were having so much fun...but like popups..between the laughter it was uncomfortable and this I noticed..with the shooting of my step-son...it got painful even at times..but they were playing and these things came and went ..tired but...  that was the day you know..being grandparent is easy, being...... sometimes isn't

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Reply from Lynnoh
Sep.17.2008
02:01PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
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Quote: ""If someone is new to Zen and they come to this site the resources are fantastic. But if they come to the Forum, they will probably be discouraged."
nothing wrong with being discouraged, maybe it motivates people to actually go to temples and seek a teacher or maybe zen is just not for them :).
"
.........

you've got to be joking.. started "serious" here

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Reply from -----0
Sep.17.2008
04:39PM EDT 
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Alan,

if you want to have it your way, you will have to work hard.
Without the moderator work, the forum goes its own way.

Since you have no time, you can't have it your way.

What is than the better choice: a form that goes its own way,
or no forum at all? I vote for the forum.

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Reply from etcetra
Sep.17.2008
10:04PM EDT 
vertical line haha not me not serious, i just thought someone was taking themselves too seriously here.
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Reply from immortal 1
Sep.18.2008
06:08AM EDT 
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When I came to the forum I expected that it was essentially a 'conference call' among Zen Monks.  That seems a reasonable assumption. 

This is actually a band of hooligans, with some peripheral reference to philosophy, and rarely to Zen Buddhism.

It is entertaining, though. 

I apologize for my recent 'personal attack' on Shayne, suggesting that his head would serve a useful purpose at last if it were used as a birdhouse.

The guidelines are well thought out and very good.  They are not too much to ask. 

I think there should be more adherence to Zen Buddhist topics, since this is a Zen Buddhist site.  If people don't like that they should start there own site.

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Reply from etcetra
Sep.18.2008
07:36AM EDT 
vertical line Well, I read and post stuff in a music forum(I am a musician), and they usually divide the forum in different categories.. that way you know where to post your more serious question and where to post if you just want to socialize. I just think that's probably a more reasonable approach rather than taking drastic measures and shut things down compleltey.
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Reply from emancipate
Sep.18.2008
08:15AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

This is actually a band of hooligans, with some peripheral reference to philosophy, and rarely to Zen Buddhism.

I think there should be more adherence to Zen Buddhist topics, since this is a Zen Buddhist site.  If people don't like that they should start there own site.

"
.........

Oh, Pure One, I hope the hooligans haven't defiled your tender mind. Please continue telling us more of the great light. We mere insects in your divine presence.

Quote: "

I apologize for my recent 'personal attack' on Shayne, suggesting that his head would serve a useful purpose at last if it were used as a birdhouse.

"
.........

Thanks for telling us that. I can see what you mean by your 'creation'. Play on, like a child.

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Reply from shayne
Sep.18.2008
10:19AM EDT 
Email shayne
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hahahahahhahahha.

don takes faith instead of logic as recourse.

he will learn.

he will learn.

( jedi knight yoda )

god ( the universe) is everything yet not one thing.

awareness ( wholeness ) awares god ( reality ) all at once.

the attention amplifies objects.

but this DOESNT mean the reality of wholeness is gone.

follow your breaths and you will see.

reality exists ( we hear see touch and taste all at once ) when we are paying ( attention ) to the breathing.

but this wholeness is NOT to be paid attention too and fixated on our youll get hung up on things like no mind and no attention and emptiness which is another name for no one thing.

hahahahahaah.

i AM your masters here.

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Reply from -----0
Sep.18.2008
11:01AM EDT 
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A newbie comes with a very specific question on Zen, hoping to clear up the last building block of his enormous construct of self-understanding. Instead of a clear answer, postings with "unhelpful or cryptic replies" pop up.

No who is here off topic??? 

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Reply from shayne
Sep.18.2008
11:48AM EDT 
Email shayne
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alan. dont shut down the forum. this has been a place for some major debates over which philosophy to learn. i have found this forum more intense the others with ALOT more people in it.

Its your choice afterall. its your site.

sincerly

shayne

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Reply from -----0
Sep.18.2008
02:36PM EDT 
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sure there must be some thrilling pleasure in deleting all those files
. . . an enormous relief

worth trying?

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Reply from -----0
Sep.18.2008
03:09PM EDT 
vertical line . . . and no backups, promise?
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Reply from Bluerose
Sep.18.2008
03:37PM EDT 
vertical line Thanks, Alan. ... I see we are still up and running.
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