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  When a monk came to say good bye to Chao-chou Tsung-shen (778-897), a brilliant Chinese Ch'an master.
Chao-chou asked:
-Where will you go?
The monk answered:
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Chao-chou stood... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: WHAT IS A KOAN?
vertical line Posted on Sep.24.2008 @ 07:59AM EDT by immortal 1

I may be wrong about this, but I believe that a Koan is a riddle without an answer intended to exhaust the logical mind and thereby open it to insight.


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Reply from IZIZIZ
Sep.24.2008
08:22AM EDT 
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I have previously read your description as an explanation elsewhere, but personally I feel that it may fall short of an adequate description.

One sort of anxiously thinks that enlightenment will jump on them by teasing there mind with a koan.

I do not see them as a means to 'sudden awakening'.

I do see them as 'first steps to insight'.

Extinguishing logic and being left with the voice of the mind does not jump out as an insight to 'the logical mind'!!!???

But I do see them as forst steps generally.

Yet, some may see a whole lot from one dose.

Regardless. They are fantastic.

Seeing my unconscioiusness dissapearing into unconsciousness.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 86943
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Reply from -----0
Sep.24.2008
03:37PM EDT 
vertical line Oh, the riddle has many answers, but none of them is of any importance.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 86951
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Reply from Bluerose
Sep.25.2008
07:00AM EDT 
vertical line I think they are designed to encourage one to stop thinking and just wonder.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 86960
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Reply from immortal 1
Sep.25.2008
08:24AM EDT 
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This all sounds good to me.  I don't think Koans can impart enlightenment either.  Or that anything can for that matter.

Enlightenment, for lack of a better or more recognizable term, since it certainly is not that, yet is, comes to one's self from one's self from within.  Nothing gives it from without.  No outside source triggers it, or brings it on.

Somehow when your inner-self decides that your outer-self is ready, it will happen.  There may be many ways to prepare, including koans, but there is no direct cause.

Dogen Zenji refused to allow people to call him a Master.  He knew better.  He had mastered nothing, and could serve as Master to no one.

The path is of self-discovery.  Of the self, by the self, for the self.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 86968
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Reply from -----0
Sep.25.2008
10:22AM EDT 
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Quote: ". . . Enlightenment, for lack of a better or more recognizable term, since it certainly is not that, yet is, comes to one's self from one's self from within.  Nothing gives it from without.  No outside source triggers it, or brings it on. . ."
.........

Separation between "inside" and "outside" is an obstacle.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 86973
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Sep.26.2008
10:26AM EDT 
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I understand the posted statement to be correct.

Now.

If the logical mind is exhausted, does it surrender?

If it does surrender, what is left ?

If something is left, is something exposed?

If something is exposed, what is that thing?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 87026
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Reply from shayne
Sep.26.2008
10:32AM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line Quote: "

I understand the posted statement to be correct.

Now.

If the logical mind is exhausted, does it surrender?

no. nothing left.

If it does surrender, what is left ?

nothing left.

If something is left, is something exposed?

just yourself.

If something is exposed, what is that thing?

just you.

"
.........
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Reply from shayne
Sep.26.2008
10:35AM EDT 
Email shayne
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koans are used to bring sudden enlightenment or can be used as such.

ive read numerous reports of this happening.

for example.

what hears?

when you think their is something left. press harder. what hears?

when you have finally exhausted yourself the answer will come.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 87030
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Reply from shayne
Sep.26.2008
11:00AM EDT 
Email shayne
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all koans point to one thing.

nothingness.

not emptieness.

just nothing.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 87035
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Reply from immortal 1
Sep.27.2008
05:18AM EDT 
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What is nothingness?

It seems to be so misunderstood, especially by people who think they understand it.

Maybe I'm one of those.  I'll leave that question open.

Nothingness is something that isn't anything.

To experience nothingness there must be something to do the experiencing, and what that something experiences is nothing.  So it isn't anything, or anywhere, yet it is something that is being nothing.

Thus the term 'nothingness', for something experiencing nothing.

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Reply from Bluerose
Sep.27.2008
01:27PM EDT 
vertical line Nothing. I look at it and it is like a void, a massive void. It seems like empty space but it isn’t. What it is, is everything. It’s like having something explained to you that you just don’t get. No matter how many word they use to try and explain it, it doesn’t make any sense. Therefore the words are empty. Nothing which is everything is there but unless you know what you are looking for, you can’t see it.
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Oct.01.2008
06:58AM EDT 
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Nothingness.

NO-THING-NESS.

How many things is REALITY.?

Non reality does not exist.

Therefore Reality stands alone on its own.

Its contrast is itself, hence the infinite realm of 'IS', everywhere you look, like you and me.

It is its own contrast, hence PARADOX.

There are no things here nor there that stand on their own without reality.

REALITY is the the only thing that stands.

It is one thing. PARADOX.

It is one thing, REALITY itself.

THERE ARE NO THINGS IN THE ONE THING.

One thing is ALL.

One thing on its own is NO-THING-NESS.

I really think that someD.T.Suzuki may be of a little help.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 87137
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Reply from Woodsman
Oct.01.2008
09:00AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Koans are not logic based answers, look at GWB. Wait a minute... ok... good advice.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 87157
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