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  One day Huang Sanku, a Confucian scholar asked Hui-tang Tsu-hsin
(1025-1100), one of the well known Chinese Ch'an masters:
-What is the Great meaning of Budhha dharmas?
Hui-tang replied:
-Confucius once said: "I hide... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: DEFINITION OF ZEN
vertical line Posted on Oct.23.2008 @ 02:27PM EDT by zen-zen
This is a trap.

Please give us a definition of the term 'Zen'.

I would like to hear it.
Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic
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Reply from the alan
Oct.23.2008
02:36PM EDT 
Email the alan
vertical line Zen (n.) - see Zen
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88326
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Reply from ______
Oct.23.2008
02:48PM EDT 
vertical line So, what's the definition of zen-zen?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88330
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Reply from zen-zen
Oct.23.2008
02:49PM EDT 
vertical line zen minus zen equals what? ;)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88332
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Reply from ______
Oct.23.2008
02:51PM EDT 
vertical line Take zen from zen and zen remains.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88333
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Reply from -----0
Oct.23.2008
02:57PM EDT 
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Zen, as you surely know, means meditation, and is a school of Buddhism. This is about all one needs to say about it.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88335
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Reply from Woodsman
Oct.23.2008
03:53PM EDT 
vertical line Zen is Alan, as far as I know, and it's ok with him. He's just so quiet, and has that look, like, ping pong player.

Look out!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88345
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Reply from the alan
Oct.23.2008
04:01PM EDT 
Email the alan
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Quote: "Zen is Alan, as far as I know, and it's ok with him. He's just so quiet, and has that look, like, ping pong player.

Look out!
"
.........

Zen is Woodsman, neither here nor here.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88346
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Reply from Woodsman
Oct.23.2008
04:02PM EDT 
vertical line Hey, it's a compliment. Course I had to tell him, so.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88347
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Reply from Woodsman
Oct.23.2008
04:04PM EDT 
vertical line And his timing is like, one hand clapping, kinda.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88348
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Reply from immortal 1
Oct.24.2008
04:00AM EDT 
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This is a trap.

Please give us a definition of the term 'Zen'.

I would like to hear it.

If it is a trap it is like Chinese Fingercuffs.  The harder you try to escape the harder it gets, but if you simply relax it is easy to slip away.

I cannot define the indefinable, but I do understand it. 

I cannot put my thumb on it, yet I am ever under its thumb.  And that is okay.

It is as it is, which is why I am as I am.  What else is there to know?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88378
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Oct.24.2008
06:46AM EDT 
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Zen comes from the word Zazen, which means to sit, not meditate.

You can definately hear that now cant you.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88397
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Reply from Snibbler
Oct.24.2008
09:05AM EDT 
vertical line "Zen", pronounced [ze?] in Japanese, is the Sino-Japanese reading of the Chinese character ?, which is pronounced [t??án] (pinyin: chán) in modern Standard Mandarin Chinese, but was likely pronounced [d???en] in Middle Chinese.[1] The term "zen" is in fact a contraction of the seldom-used long form zenna (??; Mandarin: chánnà), a derivation from the Sanskrit term dhyana (?????) (pali: jhana), which refers to a specific type or aspect of meditation.[2] The Sanskrit word is derived from the Indo-European root *dhei?-, meaning "see, look". While "Zen" is the name most often used in the English-speaking world, it is also known as Chan in mainland China, Seon in Korea, Thi?n in Vietnam and dhyana in India.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88406
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Reply from zen-zen
Oct.25.2008
02:40AM EDT 
vertical line I guess this excercise has been quite refreshing for each of us. Now we may have a bit better understanding of what we're writing about.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88502
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Reply from immortal 1
Oct.25.2008
04:08AM EDT 
vertical line

Also from the same Wikipedia site:

The Flower Sermon

The lotus flower, the species of flower said to have been used during the Flower Sermon.
The lotus flower, the species of flower said to have been used during the Flower Sermon.

The origins of Zen Buddhism are ascribed to the Flower Sermon, the earliest source for which comes from the 14th century.[3] It is said that Gautama Buddha gathered his disciples one day for a dharma talk.

When they gathered together, the Buddha was completely silent and some speculated that perhaps the Buddha was tired or ill. The Buddha silently held up a flower and several of his disciples tried to interpret what this meant, though none of them were correct.

One of the Buddha's disciples, Mahakasyapa, silently gazed at the flower and is said to have gained a special insight directly from the Buddha's mind, beyond words. Mahakasyapa somehow understood the true inexpressible meaning of the flower, smiled and the Buddha then acknowledged Mahakasyapa's insight by saying the following:

I possess the true Dharma eye, the marvelous mind of Nirvana, the true form of the formless, the subtle dharma gate that does not rest on words or letters but is a special transmission outside of the scriptures. This I entrust to Mahakasyapa.[3]

Thus, through Zen there developed a way which concentrated on direct experience rather than on rational creeds or revealed scriptures. Wisdom was passed, not through words, but through a lineage of one-to-one direct transmission of thought from teacher to student.

There are those also who say that the purpose of meditation is just to sit and await the 'transmission' of Buddha. 

After receiving 'transmission' it becomes clear that there is only one source of anything, and everything.  So the 'transmission' you receive comes from Buddha itself, not a Buddha, or a Teacher, but from the one being that is all, Buddha itself.

Whether this comes through a Teacher or without one makes no difference.  The source is the same.  There are no Zen Masters.  Just Zen.

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Reply from IZIZIZ
Oct.25.2008
04:18AM EDT 
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All is ENLIGHTENMENT.

All is BUDDHA.

All IS.

Now sit and just look.

One moving picture.

And your in it.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88506
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Reply from shayne
Oct.25.2008
04:44AM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line Quote: "

Also from the same Wikipedia site:

The Flower Sermon

The lotus flower, the species of flower said to have been used during the Flower Sermon.
The lotus flower, the species of flower said to have been used during the Flower Sermon.

The origins of Zen Buddhism are ascribed to the Flower Sermon, the earliest source for which comes from the 14th century.[3] It is said that Gautama Buddha gathered his disciples one day for a dharma talk.

When they gathered together, the Buddha was completely silent and some speculated that perhaps the Buddha was tired or ill. The Buddha silently held up a flower and several of his disciples tried to interpret what this meant, though none of them were correct.

One of the Buddha's disciples, Mahakasyapa, silently gazed at the flower and is said to have gained a special insight directly from the Buddha's mind, beyond words. Mahakasyapa somehow understood the true inexpressible meaning of the flower, smiled and the Buddha then acknowledged Mahakasyapa's insight by saying the following:

I possess the true Dharma eye, the marvelous mind of Nirvana, the true form of the formless, the subtle dharma gate that does not rest on words or letters but is a special transmission outside of the scriptures. This I entrust to Mahakasyapa.[3]

Thus, through Zen there developed a way which concentrated on direct experience rather than on rational creeds or revealed scriptures. Wisdom was passed, not through words, but through a lineage of one-to-one direct transmission of thought from teacher to student.

There are those also who say that the purpose of meditation is just to sit and await the 'transmission' of Buddha. 

After receiving 'transmission' it becomes clear that there is only one source of anything, and everything.  So the 'transmission' you receive comes from Buddha itself, not a Buddha, or a Teacher, but from the one being that is all, Buddha itself.

Whether this comes through a Teacher or without one makes no difference.  The source is the same.  There are no Zen Masters.  Just Zen.

"
.........

"
.........

actually theirs speculation the " taransmission " thing was made up.

buddha.........guatama was no god.

and he isnt the last buddha.

theirs still like thirteen more to come.

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Reply from shayne
Oct.25.2008
04:45AM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line and true dharma eye is the attention. the third eye.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88516
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Reply from Snibbler
Oct.25.2008
11:21AM EDT 
vertical line Heey, difficult to know just what took place, and if the author writing of this event understood it properly. I speculate he was "doing a kinda joke" and this Maha character was the only one who got it or something..
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88541
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Reply from Mslapik
Oct.25.2008
01:56PM EDT 
Email Mslapik
vertical line It can't be describe with words, with symbols. It has to do with knowing things as they are, not knowing symbols and extrapolating the symbols to construct patterns . (Symbols like happiness, peace, desire) Of course, the symbols point you in the right direction, but they are not zen. Zen is knowing happiness, knowing desire, not knowing the symbol. THIS IS IT.  Don't put a name on it. When you know desire, know suffering, you see the four noble truths, the problem will be fixed. When you know it conceptually, with symbols, you don't really understand.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88542
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Oct.25.2008
08:29PM EDT 
vertical line

Maha saw no-thing.

He experienced no-thing-ness.

Thats all.

The moment that one tries to communicate the experience of no-thing-ness it is not there.

Thats why maha laughed.

And then Buddha knew.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88545
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Reply from Snibbler
Oct.26.2008
01:35AM EDT 
vertical line Special edition -  without any use of profane words::

Maha saw.
He experienced.
Thats all.

The moment is not there.

Maha laughed.

Buddha knew.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88546
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Reply from shayne
Oct.27.2008
11:07AM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line that which seeks zen is zen.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88576
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Reply from Woodsman
Oct.27.2008
02:42PM EDT 
vertical line I don't know, mind.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88594
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Reply from zen-zen
Oct.27.2008
03:22PM EDT 
vertical line I am so sorry for setting this trap.

Practice.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88603
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Reply from Woodsman
Oct.27.2008
03:42PM EDT 
vertical line Sorrow is practice, in feeling.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88605
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Reply from Lynnoh
Oct.27.2008
03:49PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line oh
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88606
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Reply from Lynnoh
Oct.27.2008
03:53PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line when I was sorrow, you knew me well... when sorrow became feeling..you became so far away.......
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88607
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Reply from Lynnoh
Oct.27.2008
03:55PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line where are you?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88608
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Reply from Woodsman
Oct.27.2008
03:58PM EDT 
vertical line Feelings are most palpable directly in the body, and here, it is an incomplete space to explore feelings, I mean one can express thought, or feeling, but the majority of communication is nonverbal, so that is the real source of any change of acceptance. Look around you, feel what is directly in your space.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88610
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Reply from Lynnoh
Oct.27.2008
04:54PM EDT 
Email Lynnoh
vertical line ok then
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88617
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Reply from immortal 1
Oct.28.2008
05:25AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Also from the same Wikipedia site:

The Flower Sermon

The lotus flower, the species of flower said to have been used during the Flower Sermon.
The lotus flower, the species of flower said to have been used during the Flower Sermon.

The origins of Zen Buddhism are ascribed to the Flower Sermon, the earliest source for which comes from the 14th century.[3] It is said that Gautama Buddha gathered his disciples one day for a dharma talk.

When they gathered together, the Buddha was completely silent and some speculated that perhaps the Buddha was tired or ill. The Buddha silently held up a flower and several of his disciples tried to interpret what this meant, though none of them were correct.

One of the Buddha's disciples, Mahakasyapa, silently gazed at the flower and is said to have gained a special insight directly from the Buddha's mind, beyond words. Mahakasyapa somehow understood the true inexpressible meaning of the flower, smiled and the Buddha then acknowledged Mahakasyapa's insight by saying the following:

I possess the true Dharma eye, the marvelous mind of Nirvana, the true form of the formless, the subtle dharma gate that does not rest on words or letters but is a special transmission outside of the scriptures. This I entrust to Mahakasyapa.[3]

Thus, through Zen there developed a way which concentrated on direct experience rather than on rational creeds or revealed scriptures. Wisdom was passed, not through words, but through a lineage of one-to-one direct transmission of thought from teacher to student.

There are those also who say that the purpose of meditation is just to sit and await the 'transmission' of Buddha. 

After receiving 'transmission' it becomes clear that there is only one source of anything, and everything.  So the 'transmission' you receive comes from Buddha itself, not a Buddha, or a Teacher, but from the one being that is all, Buddha itself.

Whether this comes through a Teacher or without one makes no difference.  The source is the same.  There are no Zen Masters.  Just Zen.

"
.........

"
.........

actually theirs speculation the " taransmission " thing was made up.

buddha.........guatama was no god.

and he isnt the last buddha.

theirs still like thirteen more to come.

"
.........

"
.........

You do not get it Shayne because you want to be the next Buddha on Earth.  

It is possible that you are. I am not saying that it is not.  Consider that Jesus was a common laborer in society before his babtism by John the Babtist, at which time something happened, he said the Holy Spirit came into him, and after that he was walking on water.  So who knows, maybe you are the next Buddha proclaimed in the scriptures.  Good luck with that.

But if you had received transmission from Buddha, as Gautama Buddha did, which is why he was a Buddha, you would not care about such trivial things.

Gautama Buddha was a great teacher.  I love his writings.  But of course he is not Buddha.  That is a reference only to his having received Buddhas transmission, for lack of a better description, in meditation.

The world is full of Buddhas.  If you want to be The Buddha, that is delusion.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88698
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Reply from shayne
Oct.28.2008
09:56AM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

Also from the same Wikipedia site:

The Flower Sermon

The lotus flower, the species of flower said to have been used during the Flower Sermon.
The lotus flower, the species of flower said to have been used during the Flower Sermon.

The origins of Zen Buddhism are ascribed to the Flower Sermon, the earliest source for which comes from the 14th century.[3] It is said that Gautama Buddha gathered his disciples one day for a dharma talk.

When they gathered together, the Buddha was completely silent and some speculated that perhaps the Buddha was tired or ill. The Buddha silently held up a flower and several of his disciples tried to interpret what this meant, though none of them were correct.

One of the Buddha's disciples, Mahakasyapa, silently gazed at the flower and is said to have gained a special insight directly from the Buddha's mind, beyond words. Mahakasyapa somehow understood the true inexpressible meaning of the flower, smiled and the Buddha then acknowledged Mahakasyapa's insight by saying the following:

I possess the true Dharma eye, the marvelous mind of Nirvana, the true form of the formless, the subtle dharma gate that does not rest on words or letters but is a special transmission outside of the scriptures. This I entrust to Mahakasyapa.[3]

Thus, through Zen there developed a way which concentrated on direct experience rather than on rational creeds or revealed scriptures. Wisdom was passed, not through words, but through a lineage of one-to-one direct transmission of thought from teacher to student.

There are those also who say that the purpose of meditation is just to sit and await the 'transmission' of Buddha. 

After receiving 'transmission' it becomes clear that there is only one source of anything, and everything.  So the 'transmission' you receive comes from Buddha itself, not a Buddha, or a Teacher, but from the one being that is all, Buddha itself.

Whether this comes through a Teacher or without one makes no difference.  The source is the same.  There are no Zen Masters.  Just Zen.

"
.........

"
.........

actually theirs speculation the " taransmission " thing was made up.

buddha.........guatama was no god.

and he isnt the last buddha.

theirs still like thirteen more to come.

"
.........

"
.........

You do not get it Shayne because you want to be the next Buddha on Earth.  

It is possible that you are. I am not saying that it is not.  Consider that Jesus was a common laborer in society before his babtism by John the Babtist, at which time something happened, he said the Holy Spirit came into him, and after that he was walking on water.  So who knows, maybe you are the next Buddha proclaimed in the scriptures.  Good luck with that.

But if you had received transmission from Buddha, as Gautama Buddha did, which is why he was a Buddha, you would not care about such trivial things.

Gautama Buddha was a great teacher.  I love his writings.  But of course he is not Buddha.  That is a reference only to his having received Buddhas transmission, for lack of a better description, in meditation.

The world is full of Buddhas.  If you want to be The Buddha, that is delusion.

"
.........

"
.........

your thinking undermines your efforts for awakening fully.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88714
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Reply from ______
Oct.28.2008
10:08AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "It can't be describe with words, with symbols. It has to do with knowing things as they are, not knowing symbols and extrapolating the symbols to construct patterns . (Symbols like happiness, peace, desire) Of course, the symbols point you in the right direction, but they are not zen. Zen is knowing happiness, knowing desire, not knowing the symbol. THIS IS IT.  Don't put a name on it. When you know desire, know suffering, you see the four noble truths, the problem will be fixed. When you know it conceptually, with symbols, you don't really understand. "
.........

Yet you put a name on it and called it 'zen'.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88715
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Reply from shayne
Oct.28.2008
10:09AM EDT 
Email shayne
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don just replaces the word god with buddha.

why not just say god and be done with it don?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88716
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Reply from StuckTail
Oct.28.2008
11:03AM EDT 
Email StuckTail
vertical line What are you asking about?

"Zen" is a combination of sounds your mouth can make.
What is the one asking?

A definition of zen?

Zen is a bad enough definition already!  Every word diminishes the speech.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88724
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Reply from Woodsman
Oct.28.2008
11:15AM EDT 
vertical line Ok. What's for lunch?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88727
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Reply from zen-zen
Oct.28.2008
01:48PM EDT 
vertical line Quite a trap don't you think?

Practice!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88731
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Reply from ______
Oct.28.2008
02:57PM EDT 
vertical line No, you think.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88734
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Reply from Mslapik
Oct.28.2008
08:36PM EDT 
Email Mslapik
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "It can't be describe with words, with symbols. It has to do with knowing things as they are, not knowing symbols and extrapolating the symbols to construct patterns . (Symbols like happiness, peace, desire) Of course, the symbols point you in the right direction, but they are not zen. Zen is knowing happiness, knowing desire, not knowing the symbol. THIS IS IT.  Don't put a name on it. When you know desire, know suffering, you see the four noble truths, the problem will be fixed. When you know it conceptually, with symbols, you don't really understand. "
.........

Yet you put a name on it and called it 'zen'.
"
.........
Yeah, you're right, but you don't know it as "zen", you know it as it is.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88745
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Reply from zen-zen
Oct.29.2008
02:08AM EDT 
vertical line Yes rustic but so do we all.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88753
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Reply from ______
Oct.29.2008
09:39AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Yes rustic but so do we all. "
.........
No, you asked, "quite a trap don't you think?"
I replied "No" meaning I don't think it's quite a trap [you think it's quite a trap].
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88756
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Reply from zen-zen
Oct.31.2008
01:51AM EDT 
vertical line Oh you may have escaped it. The trap is very devious because the very definition of the term 'Zen' is danger to learning it's meaning.

"put a name on it and it's not it"
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88866
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Reply from emancipate
Oct.31.2008
02:20AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Oh you may have escaped it. The trap is very devious because the very definition of the term 'Zen' is danger to learning it's meaning.

"put a name on it and it's not it"
"
.........

Put an "it" on it and...

"Imagine it. Done"
 - Unisys

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 88868
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