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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: ZEN VALUE
vertical line Posted on Nov.10.2008 @ 01:04AM EDT by noumenal

Zen often uses words to transcend words. Koans, paradoxical stories or seemingly meaningless quips frequently appear in the literature. Consequently, we often miss the point. Westerners in particular are usually heavily left-brained, linear, rational thinkers, and so will frequently fail to grasp a Zen teaching and so respond inappropriately. We argue the point instead of getting it.

English has a particularly rich potential for double meanings, innuendos, equivocations and the construction of dozens of other kinds of fallacy. Politicians, comedians, salespeople, advertising, the media, propaganda exponents, etc. all use this potential for their own ends. Consequently, most people without training in this kind of stuff live in a perpetual mental fog.

Given the nature of Zen, I wonder if Zen actually helps clarity, or hinders it.    


Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email noumenal
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Reply from emancipate
Nov.10.2008
01:51AM EDT 
vertical line Nothing in the way of anything.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89472
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Reply from 9999999
Nov.10.2008
02:41AM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line are you trying to say something else?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89475
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Reply from emancipate
Nov.10.2008
02:55AM EDT 
vertical line Beta-carotene (among others) can improve one's ability to concentrate: "clarity".
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89477
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Reply from 9999999
Nov.10.2008
04:57AM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line :P~
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89483
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Reply from zen-zen
Nov.10.2008
05:04AM EDT 
vertical line Yes, noumenal, I think you are correct. I recently posted a devious topic where I wanted to discuss and sharpen the term "Zen". This was, of course, an attempt to raise thoughts whether the term itself is contrary to the basic principles of zen practice.

Allow me to explain: I remember that even the bible says that one should not "make a picture of the god". This principle is even more strongly present in islamic world. For example when I was working in Saudi Arabia it was not allowed to show any pictures of people publicly because a man is seen as a some kind of a presentation of Allah and therefore there shouldn't be any pictures of him. It was quite funny when they had the municipal elections and the faces of the nominees were pixelated on the streets.

Back to the point: Do you think that christian and islamic tradition has forgotten the true meaning why one shouldn't "make a picture of one's god"? And is there a link in this issue back to the original question posted by noumenal?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89484
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Reply from emancipate
Nov.10.2008
05:19AM EDT 
vertical line The word-noun-image is not the thing itself.

The thing itself is not a thing.

Blah, blah, blah.

It would take a universe bigger than the universe to understand all things properly. And even then the uber-universe wouldn't understand itself.

There is nothing from this line of thought.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89485
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Reply from 9999999
Nov.10.2008
05:29AM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line it ok

nothing ever goes wrong ^_^


vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89488
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Reply from emancipate
Nov.10.2008
06:01AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "it ok

nothing ever goes wrong ^_^


"
.........

If so, I'll get Major Payne on your asses.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89491
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Reply from 9999999
Nov.10.2008
06:12AM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line Pajor Mayne
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89493
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Nov.10.2008
07:08AM EDT 
vertical line

I find that the biggest obstacle is how we think.

I predominantly think in English, eventhough I can think in Italian.

Alot of what I read or try to comprehend comes from hindu or asian thought.

There is a rift. Then there is a comprehension misinterpretation at times because of this rift.

I am not saying that I to be able to comprehaend as another person has done. My comprehension will be mine. But, I struggle to comprehend what another has comprehended due to thought/translation differences.

This creates a bit of a stress. I feel that I may be missing out on knowing what another may have experienced. Yet, I know that I am not to attach myself to anothers experience in place of my own.

Enough comprehension is there(triggers) to explore/experience your own, but there is definately a rift at times.

It is by no means the 'be all or end all', but I like the experience of knowing that another is experiencing their own zen.

I hope that you may understand this.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89499
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Nov.10.2008
07:12AM EDT 
vertical line Overall though. Zen has really improved clarity for me.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89500
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Nov.10.2008
07:18AM EDT 
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Quote: "Yes, noumenal, I think you are correct. I recently posted a devious topic where I wanted to discuss and sharpen the term "Zen". This was, of course, an attempt to raise thoughts whether the term itself is contrary to the basic principles of zen practice.

Allow me to explain: I remember that even the bible says that one should not "make a picture of the god". This principle is even more strongly present in islamic world. For example when I was working in Saudi Arabia it was not allowed to show any pictures of people publicly because a man is seen as a some kind of a presentation of Allah and therefore there shouldn't be any pictures of him. It was quite funny when they had the municipal elections and the faces of the nominees were pixelated on the streets.

Back to the point: Do you think that christian and islamic tradition has forgotten the true meaning why one shouldn't "make a picture of one's god"? And is there a link in this issue back to the original question posted by noumenal?
"

Lets think about clarity.

Where is the value of religion in no-thing-ness.

Do you know what no-thing-ness is?


.........

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89501
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Nov.10.2008
07:21AM EDT 
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Quote: "Yes, noumenal, I think you are correct. I recently posted a devious topic where I wanted to discuss and sharpen the term "Zen". This was, of course, an attempt to raise thoughts whether the term itself is contrary to the basic principles of zen practice.

Allow me to explain: I remember that even the bible says that one should not "make a picture of the god". This principle is even more strongly present in islamic world. For example when I was working in Saudi Arabia it was not allowed to show any pictures of people publicly because a man is seen as a some kind of a presentation of Allah and therefore there shouldn't be any pictures of him. It was quite funny when they had the municipal elections and the faces of the nominees were pixelated on the streets.

Back to the point: Do you think that christian and islamic tradition has forgotten the true meaning why one shouldn't "make a picture of one's god"? And is there a link in this issue back to the original question posted by noumenal?
"
.........

'What is the meaning of Bodhidharma's coming from the West?'

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89502
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Reply from emancipate
Nov.10.2008
07:36AM EDT 
vertical line Reponzle.

Actually, I don't know. I guess we'll have to reverse engineer it. But with no past to work with, and with computer systems that are only finite in their simulation abilities, I don't think we'll be able to work it out...
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89506
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Reply from lehish
Nov.10.2008
08:32AM EDT 
Email lehish
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Quote: "Lets think about clarity." 
 
.........

no thanks

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89507
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Reply from ______
Nov.10.2008
09:38AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Yes, noumenal, I think you are correct. I recently posted a devious topic where I wanted to discuss and sharpen the term "Zen". This was, of course, an attempt to raise thoughts whether the term itself is contrary to the basic principles of zen practice.

Allow me to explain: I remember that even the bible says that one should not "make a picture of the god". This principle is even more strongly present in islamic world. For example when I was working in Saudi Arabia it was not allowed to show any pictures of people publicly because a man is seen as a some kind of a presentation of Allah and therefore there shouldn't be any pictures of him. It was quite funny when they had the municipal elections and the faces of the nominees were pixelated on the streets.

Back to the point: Do you think that christian and islamic tradition has forgotten the true meaning why one shouldn't "make a picture of one's god"? And is there a link in this issue back to the original question posted by noumenal?
"
.........

There isn't anything which isn't pointing.  Zen, tree, sun, moon, poop, et al are representations, they are not IT - you're talking about the authority of literalism - you seem to understand that.  I am is here to be with you are. What else?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89509
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Reply from noumenal
Nov.10.2008
04:54PM EDT 
Email noumenal
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Lets think about clarity." 
 
.........

no thanks

"
......... I like that!

"
......... I like that!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89516
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Reply from noumenal
Nov.10.2008
04:56PM EDT 
Email noumenal
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Quote: Back to the point: Do you think that christian and islamic tradition has forgotten the true meaning why one shouldn't "make a picture of one's god"? And is there a link in this issue back to the original question posted by noumenal?"
.........

Yes and yes.

And thank you for your considered response.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89517
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Reply from noumenal
Nov.10.2008
05:09PM EDT 
Email noumenal
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Where is the value of religion in no-thing-ness.

Do you know what no-thing-ness is?"

................

No value whatsoever, for me.


Can we know no-thing-ness? Yes and no. This question exemplifies the potential for equivocation on the meaning of the word 'know' , which is what my post is about.

Thanks for your comments.  

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89518
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Reply from ______
Nov.10.2008
05:53PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: Back to the point: Do you think that christian and islamic tradition has forgotten the true meaning why one shouldn't "make a picture of one's god"? And is there a link in this issue back to the original question posted by noumenal?"
.........

Yes and yes.

And thank you for your considered response.

"
......... 

I don't know and I don't know.

So, what in your considered opinion is the true meaning why one shouldn't make a picture of one's god?


vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89520
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Reply from noumenal
Nov.10.2008
06:18PM EDT 
Email noumenal
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: Back to the point: Do you think that christian and islamic tradition has forgotten the true meaning why one shouldn't "make a picture of one's god"? And is there a link in this issue back to the original question posted by noumenal?"
.........

Yes and yes.

And thank you for your considered response.

"
......... 

I don't know and I don't know.

So, what in your considered opinion is the true meaning why one shouldn't make a picture of one's god?


"
......... Rustic's like a stick in the fire that stirs stirs stirs until he disappears
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89524
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Reply from ______
Nov.10.2008
06:20PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: Back to the point: Do you think that christian and islamic tradition has forgotten the true meaning why one shouldn't "make a picture of one's god"? And is there a link in this issue back to the original question posted by noumenal?"
.........

Yes and yes.

And thank you for your considered response.

"
......... 

I don't know and I don't know.

So, what in your considered opinion is the true meaning why one shouldn't make a picture of one's god?


"
......... Rustic's like a stick in the fire that stirs stirs stirs until he disappears
"
.........
How very considered.  
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89526
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Reply from ______
Nov.10.2008
06:27PM EDT 
vertical line Perhaps I should begin sifting through your nonsense posts, your perpetual mental fog, your arguing, not getting it and your lack of training of this kind.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89527
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Reply from ______
Nov.10.2008
06:29PM EDT 
vertical line Or perhaps I could just invite more sincere ad-hominems.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89528
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Reply from ______
Nov.10.2008
06:40PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: Back to the point: Do you think that christian and islamic tradition has forgotten the true meaning why one shouldn't "make a picture of one's god"? And is there a link in this issue back to the original question posted by noumenal?"
.........

Yes and yes.

And thank you for your considered response.

"
......... 

I don't know and I don't know.

So, what in your considered opinion is the true meaning why one shouldn't make a picture of one's god?


"
.........

Come on.   You posted yes in answer to zen-zen's question: Do you think that christian and islamic tradition has forgotten the true meaning why one shouldn't "make a picture of one's god"?  I'm interested in your considered response to what that true meaning is.  Cat got your tongue - I thought you liked this kind of stuff?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89529
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Reply from ______
Nov.10.2008
06:43PM EDT 
vertical line What happened to all that concern for sincerity?  Where did it go?  Could it be it never existed - that it was a mock up all along?  
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89530
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Reply from emancipate
Nov.10.2008
06:44PM EDT 
vertical line Godzilla. It's a picture. (I think.)

Here is another.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89531
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Reply from ______
Nov.10.2008
06:45PM EDT 
vertical line Yeah I thought so. 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89532
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Reply from emancipate
Nov.10.2008
06:52PM EDT 
vertical line It's so simple, how could they ever get it wrong. God isn't one thing, he's three. He's the father, the son, and the holy ghost.

Why are we talking about wrathful dieties?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89533
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Reply from Snibbler
Nov.10.2008
07:05PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Perhaps I should begin sifting through your nonsense posts, your perpetual mental fog, your arguing, not getting it and your lack of training of this kind."
.........
For God`s sake, please no! That would be like totally awesomely boring!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89534
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Reply from ______
Nov.10.2008
07:08PM EDT 
vertical line Yeah you're right, it would.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89535
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Reply from ______
Nov.10.2008
07:09PM EDT 
vertical line heheheheeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaw
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89536
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Reply from noumenal
Nov.10.2008
07:18PM EDT 
Email noumenal
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Quote: "heheheheeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaw"
.........

I'm glad you got all that off your chest.

Feeling better now? 

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89537
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Reply from noumenal
Nov.10.2008
07:28PM EDT 
Email noumenal
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To answer Rustic's question about naming the unameable....

Enough said?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89538
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Reply from ______
Nov.10.2008
07:58PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "It's so simple, how could they ever get it wrong. God isn't one thing, he's three. He's the father, the son, and the holy ghost.

Why are we talking about wrathful dieties?
"
.........

Been away from the computer but hey, now I'm back.  
Don't know. Perhaps the zennists feel better when they're talking about wrathful deities. I'm not a wrathful deity or a zennist, so I really don't know.  
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89539
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Reply from ______
Nov.10.2008
07:59PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "heheheheeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaw"
.........

I'm glad you got all that off your chest.

Feeling better now? 

"
.........

Ooh, and I can feel that fake sincerity pulsating from here. 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89540
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Reply from ______
Nov.10.2008
08:02PM EDT 
vertical line Just because I'm naked, doesn't mean I'm sexy.  Just because I say I don't care about what you think, doesn't mean I don't care.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89541
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Reply from ______
Nov.10.2008
08:39PM EDT 
vertical line Are we still on board - no ticket, no baggage - or has the fun stopped?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89542
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Reply from lehish
Nov.10.2008
11:30PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Lets think about clarity." 
 
.........

no thanks

"
......... I like that!

"
......... I like that! "
.........

"
......... I like that!
"
.........

:)

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89544
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Reply from ______
Nov.11.2008
06:16AM EDT 
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People all over the world (everybody)

Join hands (join)

(clap)

Start a love train, love train

(mmmmmyeah)

People all over the world (all the world, now)

Join hands (love ride)

(clap)

Start a love train (love ride), love train

(mmmm oh yeah come on)


The next stop that we make will be England

Tell all the folks in Russia, and China, too

Don't you know that it's time to get on board

And let this train keep on riding, riding on through


Well, well

People all over the world (you don't need no money)

Join hands (come on)

Start a love train, love train (don't need no ticket, come on)

People all over the world (Join in, ride this train)

Join in (Ride this train, y'all)

Start a love train (Come on, train), love train


All of you brothers over in Africa

Tell all the folks in Egypt, and Israel, too

Please don't miss this train at the station

'Cause if you miss it, I feel sorry, sorry for you


Well

People all over the world (Sisters and brothers)

Join hands (join, come on)

Start a love train (ride this train, y'all), love train (Come on)

People all over the world (Don't need no tickets)

Join hands (come on, ride)

Start a love train, love train

Ride, let it ride


ahhhhhhhhhhhhh ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Let it ride

Let it ride

People, ain't no war

People all over the world (on this train)

Join in (ride the train)

Start a love train, love train (ride the train, y'all)

People all over the world (come on)

Join hands (you can ride or stand, yeah)

Start a love train, love train (makin' love)

People all over the world ('round the world, y'all)

Join hands (come on)

Start a love train, love train

mmmmm mmmmm mmmyeah


vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89549
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Reply from immortal 1
Nov.11.2008
06:44AM EDT 
vertical line Much ado about nothing.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89550
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Reply from ______
Nov.11.2008
06:56AM EDT 
vertical line No.  No nothing.  No something.  No much ado. 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89556
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Reply from emancipate
Nov.11.2008
07:14AM EDT 
vertical line Speaking of nothing...

Here's Lionel Ritchie.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89561
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Reply from ______
Nov.11.2008
08:48AM EDT 
vertical line s o u l
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89580
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Reply from Snibbler
Nov.11.2008
09:52AM EDT 
vertical line Love, sweet love.For me it`s like one of those days where I just want to poor myself a coozy cup of warm chocolate, snuggle down in a delisiouse warm bathtube and just blow my brains out!:)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89581
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Reply from ______
Nov.11.2008
05:11PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "No.  No nothing.  No something.  No much ado. "
.........

Yeah, people, join in, start a love train, whooo whoooo - a fantastic happening song.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89592
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Reply from ______
Nov.11.2008
05:15PM EDT 
vertical line Beautiful singers singing beautiful - yeah, come on . . . .whooooooo!!!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 89593
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