history principles practice stories, books, media discussion forum organizations resources
zenguide.com logo
 
Thursday Oct 23 2014 06:08AM ET
º login º register º email º guestbook º printer friendly
grey dot
  Ta-mei Fa-chang (752-839) was a Chinese Ch'an master. After he got awakened under
the Great master Ma-tsu Tao-i (709-788), he went to the Ta-mei mountain and resided there.
One day there was a traveling monk who got lost in the Ta-mei... continue...

z
.
e
.
n
menu left history menu spacer principles menu spacer practice menu spacer zen media menu spacer discussion forum menu spacer organization directory menu spacer resources  
login
  DISCUSSION FORUM
» topic list   » start a new topic   » my tracked topics   » view topic
grey dot

horizontal line
→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: VEGETARIANISM
vertical line Posted on Jan.17.2009 @ 04:53PM EDT by Woodsman
Whoah!

Listen to this, and if you are shayne, think about it, if not, just listen...

Vegetarianism
is the first turning away from life,
because life lives on lives.
Vegetarians are just eating
something that can't run away.

And I'm going out to eat tonight! What!? Oh what, am I!?

Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email Woodsman
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from zen-zen
Jan.17.2009
05:20PM EDT 
vertical line Hahaha :D You're as fun as ever Woodsy!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91013
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.17.2009
05:23PM EDT 
vertical line Tiger.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91014
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.17.2009
08:09PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line animals grown for food, imprisoned, sometimes in filth,, shot with hormones, force fed, sometimes meat which they don't eat, slaughtered, sometimes while still baby, don't have a chance to run, woodsman
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91019
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.17.2009
08:20PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Oh my, I'm so full... Don't even say one more food word, or if you're shayne don't even think it. Beans! Magic as ever! I feel a song comin', in the key of G, for green.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91020
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.17.2009
08:32PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line ahhhh  songinggggg 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91022
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.17.2009
08:33PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O2aH4XLbto&feature=channel_page
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91024
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.17.2009
11:16PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Vegetarianism functions as a purification. When you eat animals you are more under the law of necessity. You are heavy, you gravitate more towards the earth. When you are a vegetarian you are light and you are more under the law of grace, under the law of power, and you start gravitating towards the sky.
                                                                             - Osho
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91038
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.18.2009
09:03AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

"necessity" was referring to nothing to eat but meat

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91044
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.18.2009
09:21AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line And conditioning. I started by dropping pork and beef, and my family dropped me. It was like, "Whoah, what else don't we have in common?" Then I gave up booze, tv, small talk, and complaining. Now, I'm a complete outcast. So I feed the birds, squirrels and rabbits, and haven't eaten them yet. I still hurt the atmosphere when driving my car to the store for beans. And I have some leather gloves. And watch the computer, out of necessity.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91045
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.18.2009
10:30AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Just ate a medium bowl of steel-cut oats ( from Oregon ) , dehydrated grapes ( I dried , in back in 20 hours ), so good... 2% cow's milk, oops, orange juice from over 1000 miles away, coffee from like over 4000 miles away, brown sugar and butter. It was good, and I am still guilty of contributing harm to the environment. "Baaa."

How's life on Mars? I wonder if they have any bananas, I'll bring some.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91046
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.18.2009
03:03PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

Quote: "And conditioning. I started by dropping pork and beef, and my family dropped me. It was like, "Whoah, what else don't we have in common?" Then I gave up booze, tv, small talk, and complaining. Now, I'm a complete outcast. So I feed the birds, squirrels and rabbits, and haven't eaten them yet. I still hurt the atmosphere when driving my car to the store for beans. And I have some leather gloves. And watch the computer, out of necessity. "
.........

thanks

bowww

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91050
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.18.2009
03:24PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

Quote: "Just ate a medium bowl of steel-cut oats ( from Oregon ) , dehydrated grapes ( I dried , in back in 20 hours ), so good... 2% cow's milk, oops, orange juice from over 1000 miles away, coffee from like over 4000 miles away, brown sugar and butter. It was good, and I am still guilty of contributing harm to the environment. "Baaa."

How's life on Mars? I wonder if they have any bananas, I'll bring some.
"
.........

great, bananas :) ...are there some dehydrated grapes left ? ....will bring some organically grown apples (is the label in the store) which are sweetest ever tasted....ohhh and watermelon when is in season...strawberries and huckleberries  too

 

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91051
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.18.2009
04:41PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Just ate a medium bowl of steel-cut oats ( from Oregon ) , dehydrated grapes ( I dried , in back in 20 hours ), so good... 2% cow's milk, oops, orange juice from over 1000 miles away, coffee from like over 4000 miles away, brown sugar and butter. It was good, and I am still guilty of contributing harm to the environment. "Baaa."

How's life on Mars? I wonder if they have any bananas, I'll bring some.
"
.........

great, bananas :) ...are there some dehydrated grapes left ? ....will bring some organically grown apples (is the label in the store) which are sweetest ever tasted....ohhh and watermelon when is in season...strawberries and huckleberries  too

 

"
.........

Just a few. Man, do they shrink down, what an aroma.. yum : ). I have yet to cold store my potatoes from last season's garden, so they are starting to sprout, they are cute, and I saved up gobs of green bean seeds, gonna be a bean bonanza this summer. I really had a problem with carrots last year, just didn't grow well enough, not enough watering, mabye, but right now there are several rows under leaves, and snow, snow, and more snow.  I could eat snow, on bread, for survival. And pine trees are edible, but again, so beautiful, just... hhhh...

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91052
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from 9999999
Jan.18.2009
05:16PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line bacteria polluted the atmosphere with oxygen hundreds of thousands of years ago




vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91054
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.18.2009
05:41PM EDT 
vertical line


Polluted?  And an animal’s body is a killing field - its physical survival entailing the destruction of millions of living things.  


However:

An organicist conception of life is entirely compatible with violent, autocratic, hierarchical and undemocratic models of society. It has been appealed to by fascist states to justify the natural urge of the strong and healthy to overcome the weak and powerless. [Stephen Batchelor]


The commercial factory farming of animals for meat and meat by-products is the legalised torture of sentient beings for money. To respond to the suffering of animals as though their suffering is my suffering is the origin of non-violence.


vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91055
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.18.2009
06:26PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Just ate a medium bowl of steel-cut oats ( from Oregon ) , dehydrated grapes ( I dried , in back in 20 hours ), so good... 2% cow's milk, oops, orange juice from over 1000 miles away, coffee from like over 4000 miles away, brown sugar and butter. It was good, and I am still guilty of contributing harm to the environment. "Baaa."

How's life on Mars? I wonder if they have any bananas, I'll bring some.
"
.........

great, bananas :) ...are there some dehydrated grapes left ? ....will bring some organically grown apples (is the label in the store) which are sweetest ever tasted....ohhh and watermelon when is in season...strawberries and huckleberries  too

"
.........

Just a few. Man, do they shrink down, what an aroma.. yum : ). I have yet to cold store my potatoes from last season's garden, so they are starting to sprout, they are cute, and I saved up gobs of green bean seeds, gonna be a bean bonanza this summer. I really had a problem with carrots last year, just didn't grow well enough, not enough watering, mabye, but right now there are several rows under leaves, and snow, snow, and more snow.  I could eat snow, on bread, for survival. And pine trees are edible, but again, so beautiful, just... hhhh...
"
.........

"
.........

Just a few. Man, do they shrink down, what an aroma.. yum : ). I have yet to cold store my potatoes from last season's garden, so they are starting to sprout, they are cute, and I saved up gobs of green bean seeds, gonna be a bean bonanza this summer. I really had a problem with carrots last year, just didn't grow well enough, not enough watering, mabye, but right now there are several rows under leaves, and snow, snow, and more snow.  I could eat snow, on bread, for survival. And pine trees are edible, but again, so beautiful, just... hhhh...
"
.........

yes small but alot aroma~  yummmm :) ....potatoes cute sprouting~baby like the garlic in the frig here (always buy alot so some starts sprouting before used up)...  how bout a roothouse ? ....then could store alot for winter...  didn't know pine trees edible... hhhh... m

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91057
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.18.2009
07:08PM EDT 
vertical line Wordism:

The word vegetarian, first used by the British Vegetarian Society, derives from the Latin vegetus/vegeo, meaning whole, fresh, alive, lusty, strong, vigorous. 

The word vegetable derives from the Latin vegetare, meaning [able] to grow, to flourish. Not doing a passing imitation of a potato watching tv. 


vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91058
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.18.2009
08:12PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Just ate a medium bowl of steel-cut oats ( from Oregon ) , dehydrated grapes ( I dried , in back in 20 hours ), so good... 2% cow's milk, oops, orange juice from over 1000 miles away, coffee from like over 4000 miles away, brown sugar and butter. It was good, and I am still guilty of contributing harm to the environment. "Baaa."

How's life on Mars? I wonder if they have any bananas, I'll bring some.
"
.........

great, bananas :) ...are there some dehydrated grapes left ? ....will bring some organically grown apples (is the label in the store) which are sweetest ever tasted....ohhh and watermelon when is in season...strawberries and huckleberries  too

"
.........

Just a few. Man, do they shrink down, what an aroma.. yum : ). I have yet to cold store my potatoes from last season's garden, so they are starting to sprout, they are cute, and I saved up gobs of green bean seeds, gonna be a bean bonanza this summer. I really had a problem with carrots last year, just didn't grow well enough, not enough watering, mabye, but right now there are several rows under leaves, and snow, snow, and more snow.  I could eat snow, on bread, for survival. And pine trees are edible, but again, so beautiful, just... hhhh...
"
.........

"
.........

Just a few. Man, do they shrink down, what an aroma.. yum : ). I have yet to cold store my potatoes from last season's garden, so they are starting to sprout, they are cute, and I saved up gobs of green bean seeds, gonna be a bean bonanza this summer. I really had a problem with carrots last year, just didn't grow well enough, not enough watering, mabye, but right now there are several rows under leaves, and snow, snow, and more snow.  I could eat snow, on bread, for survival. And pine trees are edible, but again, so beautiful, just... hhhh...
"
.........

yes small but alot aroma~  yummmm :) ....potatoes cute sprouting~baby like the garlic in the frig here (always buy alot so some starts sprouting before used up)...  how bout a roothouse ? ....then could store alot for winter...  didn't know pine trees edible... hhhh... m

"
.........

I'm gettin' there, will start collecting old field stones to begin a cold storage/solar green house using all recycled materials this summer. There is such a thing as pine needle tea, haven't tried it yet, but during the construction of the solar green house am gonna be thirsty, and have plenty of pine trees, so sip I shall. Man, I'm gettin' thirsty for it right now, and pine needles are fresh all year round, have to settle for ginger tea tonight. , mmmm... awaken
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91060
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.18.2009
09:07PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line Quote: "Wordism:

The word vegetarian, first used by the British Vegetarian Society, derives from the Latin vegetus/vegeo, meaning whole, fresh, alive, lusty, strong, vigorous. 

The word vegetable derives from the Latin vegetare, meaning [able] to grow, to flourish. Not doing a passing imitation of a potato watching tv. 


"
.........

"
.........

hehe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91064
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.18.2009
09:40PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Just ate a medium bowl of steel-cut oats ( from Oregon ) , dehydrated grapes ( I dried , in back in 20 hours ), so good... 2% cow's milk, oops, orange juice from over 1000 miles away, coffee from like over 4000 miles away, brown sugar and butter. It was good, and I am still guilty of contributing harm to the environment. "Baaa."

How's life on Mars? I wonder if they have any bananas, I'll bring some.
"
.........

great, bananas :) ...are there some dehydrated grapes left ? ....will bring some organically grown apples (is the label in the store) which are sweetest ever tasted....ohhh and watermelon when is in season...strawberries and huckleberries  too

"
.........

Just a few. Man, do they shrink down, what an aroma.. yum : ). I have yet to cold store my potatoes from last season's garden, so they are starting to sprout, they are cute, and I saved up gobs of green bean seeds, gonna be a bean bonanza this summer. I really had a problem with carrots last year, just didn't grow well enough, not enough watering, mabye, but right now there are several rows under leaves, and snow, snow, and more snow.  I could eat snow, on bread, for survival. And pine trees are edible, but again, so beautiful, just... hhhh...
"
.........

"
.........

Just a few. Man, do they shrink down, what an aroma.. yum : ). I have yet to cold store my potatoes from last season's garden, so they are starting to sprout, they are cute, and I saved up gobs of green bean seeds, gonna be a bean bonanza this summer. I really had a problem with carrots last year, just didn't grow well enough, not enough watering, mabye, but right now there are several rows under leaves, and snow, snow, and more snow.  I could eat snow, on bread, for survival. And pine trees are edible, but again, so beautiful, just... hhhh...
"
.........

yes small but alot aroma~  yummmm :) ....potatoes cute sprouting~baby like the garlic in the frig here (always buy alot so some starts sprouting before used up)...  how bout a roothouse ? ....then could store alot for winter...  didn't know pine trees edible... hhhh... m

"
.........

I'm gettin' there, will start collecting old field stones to begin a cold storage/solar green house using all recycled materials this summer. There is such a thing as pine needle tea, haven't tried it yet, but during the construction of the solar green house am gonna be thirsty, and have plenty of pine trees, so sip I shall. Man, I'm gettin' thirsty for it right now, and pine needles are fresh all year round, have to settle for ginger tea tonight. , mmmm... awaken
"
.........

"
.........

I'm gettin' there, will start collecting old field stones to begin a cold storage/solar green house using all recycled materials this summer. There is such a thing as pine needle tea, haven't tried it yet, but during the construction of the solar green house am gonna be thirsty, and have plenty of pine trees, so sip I shall. Man, I'm gettin' thirsty for it right now, and pine needles are fresh all year round, have to settle for ginger tea tonight. , mmmm... awaken
"
.........

wonderful using old field stones and using recycled materials :D ...there are 2 small greenhouses connected to this house but they're so very dirty and moldy...the landloard was to have them cleaned, after moved in, but didn't....they're made with hard rippled plastic which flilters the sun alot...don't know if would very healthy plants and collects alot of dirt... there are some pine trees the yard, well most the island, so will collect some for tea...thanks...use fresh ginger ?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91065
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.18.2009
11:33PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Just ate a medium bowl of steel-cut oats ( from Oregon ) , dehydrated grapes ( I dried , in back in 20 hours ), so good... 2% cow's milk, oops, orange juice from over 1000 miles away, coffee from like over 4000 miles away, brown sugar and butter. It was good, and I am still guilty of contributing harm to the environment. "Baaa."

How's life on Mars? I wonder if they have any bananas, I'll bring some.
"
.........

great, bananas :) ...are there some dehydrated grapes left ? ....will bring some organically grown apples (is the label in the store) which are sweetest ever tasted....ohhh and watermelon when is in season...strawberries and huckleberries  too

"
.........

Just a few. Man, do they shrink down, what an aroma.. yum : ). I have yet to cold store my potatoes from last season's garden, so they are starting to sprout, they are cute, and I saved up gobs of green bean seeds, gonna be a bean bonanza this summer. I really had a problem with carrots last year, just didn't grow well enough, not enough watering, mabye, but right now there are several rows under leaves, and snow, snow, and more snow.  I could eat snow, on bread, for survival. And pine trees are edible, but again, so beautiful, just... hhhh...
"
.........

"
.........

Just a few. Man, do they shrink down, what an aroma.. yum : ). I have yet to cold store my potatoes from last season's garden, so they are starting to sprout, they are cute, and I saved up gobs of green bean seeds, gonna be a bean bonanza this summer. I really had a problem with carrots last year, just didn't grow well enough, not enough watering, mabye, but right now there are several rows under leaves, and snow, snow, and more snow.  I could eat snow, on bread, for survival. And pine trees are edible, but again, so beautiful, just... hhhh...
"
.........

yes small but alot aroma~  yummmm :) ....potatoes cute sprouting~baby like the garlic in the frig here (always buy alot so some starts sprouting before used up)...  how bout a roothouse ? ....then could store alot for winter...  didn't know pine trees edible... hhhh... m

"
.........

I'm gettin' there, will start collecting old field stones to begin a cold storage/solar green house using all recycled materials this summer. There is such a thing as pine needle tea, haven't tried it yet, but during the construction of the solar green house am gonna be thirsty, and have plenty of pine trees, so sip I shall. Man, I'm gettin' thirsty for it right now, and pine needles are fresh all year round, have to settle for ginger tea tonight. , mmmm... awaken
"
.........

"
.........

I'm gettin' there, will start collecting old field stones to begin a cold storage/solar green house using all recycled materials this summer. There is such a thing as pine needle tea, haven't tried it yet, but during the construction of the solar green house am gonna be thirsty, and have plenty of pine trees, so sip I shall. Man, I'm gettin' thirsty for it right now, and pine needles are fresh all year round, have to settle for ginger tea tonight. , mmmm... awaken
"
.........

wonderful using old field stones and using recycled materials :D ...there are 2 small greenhouses connected to this house but they're so very dirty and moldy...the landloard was to have them cleaned, after moved in, but didn't....they're made with hard rippled plastic which flilters the sun alot...don't know if would very healthy plants and collects alot of dirt... there are some pine trees the yard, well most the island, so will collect some for tea...thanks...use fresh ginger ?

"
.........

No, it's packaged, and sometimes I leave the bag in the water a few hours, so I come in from outside and mix the tea with a large glass of fresh water, it turns into cold tea. It's ginger heaven.  Getting away from processed foods is going to take time, like losing the ego. The simple values in life mean the most, and sharing, saving energy, reducing waste Changing now makes for the larger change later, habit
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91066
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.18.2009
11:39PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Just ate a medium bowl of steel-cut oats ( from Oregon ) , dehydrated grapes ( I dried , in back in 20 hours ), so good... 2% cow's milk, oops, orange juice from over 1000 miles away, coffee from like over 4000 miles away, brown sugar and butter. It was good, and I am still guilty of contributing harm to the environment. "Baaa."

How's life on Mars? I wonder if they have any bananas, I'll bring some.
"
.........

great, bananas :) ...are there some dehydrated grapes left ? ....will bring some organically grown apples (is the label in the store) which are sweetest ever tasted....ohhh and watermelon when is in season...strawberries and huckleberries  too

"
.........

Just a few. Man, do they shrink down, what an aroma.. yum : ). I have yet to cold store my potatoes from last season's garden, so they are starting to sprout, they are cute, and I saved up gobs of green bean seeds, gonna be a bean bonanza this summer. I really had a problem with carrots last year, just didn't grow well enough, not enough watering, mabye, but right now there are several rows under leaves, and snow, snow, and more snow.  I could eat snow, on bread, for survival. And pine trees are edible, but again, so beautiful, just... hhhh...
"
.........

"
.........

Just a few. Man, do they shrink down, what an aroma.. yum : ). I have yet to cold store my potatoes from last season's garden, so they are starting to sprout, they are cute, and I saved up gobs of green bean seeds, gonna be a bean bonanza this summer. I really had a problem with carrots last year, just didn't grow well enough, not enough watering, mabye, but right now there are several rows under leaves, and snow, snow, and more snow.  I could eat snow, on bread, for survival. And pine trees are edible, but again, so beautiful, just... hhhh...
"
.........

yes small but alot aroma~  yummmm :) ....potatoes cute sprouting~baby like the garlic in the frig here (always buy alot so some starts sprouting before used up)...  how bout a roothouse ? ....then could store alot for winter...  didn't know pine trees edible... hhhh... m

"
.........

I'm gettin' there, will start collecting old field stones to begin a cold storage/solar green house using all recycled materials this summer. There is such a thing as pine needle tea, haven't tried it yet, but during the construction of the solar green house am gonna be thirsty, and have plenty of pine trees, so sip I shall. Man, I'm gettin' thirsty for it right now, and pine needles are fresh all year round, have to settle for ginger tea tonight. , mmmm... awaken
"
.........

"
.........

I'm gettin' there, will start collecting old field stones to begin a cold storage/solar green house using all recycled materials this summer. There is such a thing as pine needle tea, haven't tried it yet, but during the construction of the solar green house am gonna be thirsty, and have plenty of pine trees, so sip I shall. Man, I'm gettin' thirsty for it right now, and pine needles are fresh all year round, have to settle for ginger tea tonight. , mmmm... awaken
"
.........

wonderful using old field stones and using recycled materials :D ...there are 2 small greenhouses connected to this house but they're so very dirty and moldy...the landloard was to have them cleaned, after moved in, but didn't....they're made with hard rippled plastic which flilters the sun alot...don't know if would very healthy plants and collects alot of dirt... there are some pine trees the yard, well most the island, so will collect some for tea...thanks...use fresh ginger ?

"
.........

No, it's packaged, and sometimes I leave the bag in the water a few hours, so I come in from outside and mix the tea with a large glass of fresh water, it turns into cold tea. It's ginger heaven.  Getting away from processed foods is going to take time, like losing the ego. The simple values in life mean the most, and sharing, saving energy, reducing waste Changing now makes for the larger change later, habit
"
.........

They say lemon and honey are good with the tea, boiled about 10 minutes.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91067
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Rebecca
Jan.19.2009
12:58AM EDT 
Email Rebecca
vertical line

Today I was watching shows with a friend that showed different animals hunting...lions,snakes etc. And I thought again about the directness of hunter and hunted,as a huge anaconda sprung out of the water,wrapped itself around an antelope and squeezed it to death,reacting to every breath of its prey.I said" Oh my god.....our beautiful nature is so brutal! but look how intimate that is"  Something lost to us..as we are today.The one on one hunting and thankfulness to the creature for the means to eat a while longer.Ive been a vegetarian for years for a number of reasons,but when fish were caught in the river I ate some.

Oh oh oh!......a root cellar  Im planning for ....such a cooool thing(pun intended) as my potatoes also have been sprouting and I had to shove and pack them into the fridge.Some could be dehydrated...need to try that in the meantime.

"100 Mile Diet" is insightful.

Guilt here too....try as I may

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91068
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from zen-zen
Jan.19.2009
07:54AM EDT 
vertical line It is not lost to a man! :)

Men are predators who have neglegted and denied their nature as nature's most efficient beasts. The most deadly weapon a man has developed is the the mind and thinking.

It is a simple matter of observing - it is so - we are hunters, mostly living in packs. Whatever we choose to eat will require resources from our environment.

Wisdom of the hunter is to realise what he can eat without consuming his environment so that there would be nothing to eat soon.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91070
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from shayne
Jan.19.2009
09:26AM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line

im the hamburgler.....and im coming to get my beef patty.

wheres the beef?

siddhartha DIED of meat poisoning.

dont mean your more enlightened.

but i do find what you say interesting.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91071
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from shayne
Jan.19.2009
09:29AM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line

i also considered a vegerterain diet.

but my mom cooks for me and thinks its dumb.

haha.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91072
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.19.2009
09:30AM EDT 
vertical line Among other rationalisations, some packs try to rationalise suffering out of the burger and even the Thanksgiving turkey.  
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91074
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from shayne
Jan.19.2009
09:44AM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line huh?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91076
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.19.2009
09:47AM EDT 
vertical line huh huhngry?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91077
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from shayne
Jan.19.2009
09:55AM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line

Quote: "It is not lost to a man! :)

Men are predators who have neglegted and denied their nature as nature's most efficient beasts. The most deadly weapon a man has developed is the the mind and thinking.

It is a simple matter of observing - it is so - we are hunters, mostly living in packs. Whatever we choose to eat will require resources from our environment.

Wisdom of the hunter is to realise what he can eat without consuming his environment so that there would be nothing to eat soon.
"
.........

ah i like that zen zen,

gooooooddddddd stuuuuuuuuuuuuufffffffffffffffffffff.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91082
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.19.2009
09:59AM EDT 
vertical line Two. Two. Buddha and Mara is One.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91083
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.19.2009
10:11AM EDT 
vertical line I came upon this thread 
after eating two slices 
of Tiger Bread 

[loaf with sesame oil and rice paste glazed on to the surface].  
Olive oil spread soaked in.  It's g-r-r-r-r-e-a-t!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91088
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.19.2009
10:48AM EDT 
vertical line Oooh . . .  It's Dragonette bread, to some, apparently.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91095
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.19.2009
12:50PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line This week I cut out all meat/dairy products, junk food sweets. Oooowww, this is gonna take some planning. 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91096
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.19.2009
12:53PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Off I go to eat some cereal. Then it's exercise, some water, walk the dogs, water. 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91097
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.19.2009
01:30PM EDT 
vertical line

Hearty breakfast: aloe juice, porridge [jumbo oats, oat-milk] - oat-milk makes porridge soooooo creamy, raisins, sultanas, dried apricots [unsulphured], pumpkin and sunflower seeds, apple juice.


vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91098
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.19.2009
02:37PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line New record on the stationary bike - 14.1 miles in under 30 minutes. Now large glass of cold water. Cool off then dog gets a long walk. No hunger for food.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91101
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Rebecca
Jan.19.2009
05:10PM EDT 
Email Rebecca
vertical line Ran a mile and a half...had to loose the shoes to cool down. Then came home and made a wicked bean and corn chile.Junk food looses its taste after a while .Becomes yucky. Wish I could do something about the state of the world. We all deserve the basic things.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91102
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Rebecca
Jan.19.2009
05:19PM EDT 
Email Rebecca
vertical line Anyone else feel sad at times ? It should all be shared . With love and the ultimate respect.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91103
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Rebecca
Jan.19.2009
05:28PM EDT 
Email Rebecca
vertical line

Quote: "It is not lost to a man! :)

Men are predators who have neglegted and denied their nature as nature's most efficient beasts. The most deadly weapon a man has developed is the the mind and thinking.

It is a simple matter of observing - it is so - we are hunters, mostly living in packs. Whatever we choose to eat will require resources from our environment.

Wisdom of the hunter is to realise what he can eat without consuming his environment so that there would be nothing to eat soon.
"
......... Yes that is true. I think of buying meat in packaged containers. and it is so far removed.  I want to have the least and most unselfish way of being prevail. Born in a wrong time.    ??? This is the way it is.It is so had to be here in this time.I dont belong here

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91104
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Rebecca
Jan.19.2009
05:29PM EDT 
Email Rebecca
vertical line

hard

hehehe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91105
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.19.2009
06:04PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Had to take the egg off my salad for dinner. No milk treat with crackers and peanut butter tonight at work. Had a burst of anger earlier, three dogs are hard to train when the garbage man stops within 20 feet, with a dog in the cab. My dogs don't like my diet. Am growin' a beard again, was told they prefer it at work. The sky sure is pretty right now. huuh..
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91106
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Rebecca
Jan.19.2009
06:12PM EDT 
Email Rebecca
vertical line Dance and live    I
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91109
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Rebecca
Jan.19.2009
06:14PM EDT 
Email Rebecca
vertical line

dance and live.  Its held back., My girls need me.....andIn burnt out.

   

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91110
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.19.2009
06:36PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Just rec'd a free nutrition book in the mail, so I'll be making reference to it. I hope it's good, to read. I may be able to recycle it, unless it's good. Gotta go heal the sick. Chow.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91114
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.20.2009
11:21AM EDT 
vertical line A Childhood Memory
Paulette Callen

The stench. Why did my mother bring me here? Oh, yes...she had a message for somebody who worked here. I walked by this strangely shaped grey building with no windows every day on my way to and from school. A building without windows. What kind of building doesn’t have windows?

Sometimes I heard sounds coming from inside. Muffled. High-pitched. Like people screaming. But it couldn’t be. I was old enough to know that just couldn’t be. Nothing bad could be happening in there. It wouldn’t be allowed. I was old enough to know that. So I passed the building each morning and evening with a strange prickling of dread, and forgot about it till the next time.

Until that day my mother took me inside. The place was thick with a reeking steam that rose out of a cauldron gurgling and frothing with oily brown bubbles. The smell. Feces. Urine. I was sorting out the smells — rather, my brain was sorting them by itself. I was trying to block them out. Something was being hauled out of the cauldron, either on a rope or belt, or maybe giant pincers, I couldn’t tell. It was up and out and swung off to the side out of my line of vision.

The smell. Blood. Old, standing, congealing, rotting blood mingled with the warm metallic smell of flesh. I could see blood now, on the floor oozing from a place where I couldn’t see. The man talking to my mother was wearing high rubber boots and a rubber apron, all spattered with slime.

The smells. Singed flesh and hair and something else...now what was happening?

A door slid open with a soft woosh of wood on wood. I looked down into the seething cauldron. The chute was slick with brown and yellow excrement...what?...a pig was shoved through the door onto a dock and poised there, just blinking. He was pink and brown and seemed to shine above the muck he looked down upon. I thought: He is smelling the same things I am.

A man on a platform above whacked the pig across the forehead with a large rod of some kind, but he didn’t go down. He wasn’t dead. He wasn’t even stunned and he began to scream before he fell. His knees buckled, in fear, I think, not from the blow, and he slid down the chute screaming. Screaming.

A scream, I have observed since, is much the same, whatever the species that utters it.

A scream born of terror: the sound of Being, in pain.

I’ve heard a cat scream and it sounded just like a child. A horse that sounded like a man. A man who sounded like — one of his compatriots said at the time — “like a stuck pig.” It’s all the same.

The pig, screaming, slid down the chute into the cauldron of boiling muck. He didn’t stop screaming till the muck closed over his head. In a moment he, too, was lifted out and another creature stood blinking and shining at the top of the chute.

I staggered out of the slaughterhouse and leaned against the back wall, vomiting. My mother found me. “What’s the matter, Honey? Have an upset stomach? Here.” She handed me her handkerchief. It was trimmed with ecru lace. “Let’s go home and settle your stomach. You’ll probably feel better after you’ve had something to eat.”


A cause for tears and sobbing, for wails and cries, for deep regrets, and mournful cries.




vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91121
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from immortal 1
Jan.21.2009
03:45AM EDT 
vertical line

So true.  Plants do not like to be killed and eaten either.

But everything that lives must feed on other life to survive, including plants.

Probably the carions, like the ravens, are the most ethical because they only eat things that are already dead.

Domestication is bettter than hunting because at least you have given something to the plant or animal before killing and eating it.  Otherwise you are a mugger, I suppose. 

Domestic plants and animals only have one bad day.  Up until then they are taken care of and have no need to struggle for life.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91134
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.21.2009
08:22AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Just ate a medium bowl of steel-cut oats ( from Oregon ) , dehydrated grapes ( I dried , in back in 20 hours ), so good... 2% cow's milk, oops, orange juice from over 1000 miles away, coffee from like over 4000 miles away, brown sugar and butter. It was good, and I am still guilty of contributing harm to the environment. "Baaa."

How's life on Mars? I wonder if they have any bananas, I'll bring some. "
.........

great, bananas :) ...are there some dehydrated grapes left ? ....will bring some organically grown apples (is the label in the store) which are sweetest ever tasted....ohhh and watermelon when is in season...strawberries and huckleberries  too

"
.........

Just a few. Man, do they shrink down, what an aroma.. yum : ). I have yet to cold store my potatoes from last season's garden, so they are starting to sprout, they are cute, and I saved up gobs of green bean seeds, gonna be a bean bonanza this summer. I really had a problem with carrots last year, just didn't grow well enough, not enough watering, mabye, but right now there are several rows under leaves, and snow, snow, and more snow.  I could eat snow, on bread, for survival. And pine trees are edible, but again, so beautiful, just... hhhh...
"
.........

"
.........

Just a few. Man, do they shrink down, what an aroma.. yum : ). I have yet to cold store my potatoes from last season's garden, so they are starting to sprout, they are cute, and I saved up gobs of green bean seeds, gonna be a bean bonanza this summer. I really had a problem with carrots last year, just didn't grow well enough, not enough watering, mabye, but right now there are several rows under leaves, and snow, snow, and more snow.  I could eat snow, on bread, for survival. And pine trees are edible, but again, so beautiful, just... hhhh...
"
.........

yes small but alot aroma~  yummmm :) ....potatoes cute sprouting~baby like the garlic in the frig here (always buy alot so some starts sprouting before used up)...  how bout a roothouse ? ....then could store alot for winter...  didn't know pine trees edible... hhhh... m

"
.........

I'm gettin' there, will start collecting old field stones to begin a cold storage/solar green house using all recycled materials this summer. There is such a thing as pine needle tea, haven't tried it yet, but during the construction of the solar green house am gonna be thirsty, and have plenty of pine trees, so sip I shall. Man, I'm gettin' thirsty for it right now, and pine needles are fresh all year round, have to settle for ginger tea tonight. , mmmm... awaken
"
.........

"
.........

I'm gettin' there, will start collecting old field stones to begin a cold storage/solar green house using all recycled materials this summer. There is such a thing as pine needle tea, haven't tried it yet, but during the construction of the solar green house am gonna be thirsty, and have plenty of pine trees, so sip I shall. Man, I'm gettin' thirsty for it right now, and pine needles are fresh all year round, have to settle for ginger tea tonight. , mmmm... awaken
"
.........

wonderful using old field stones and using recycled materials :D ...there are 2 small greenhouses connected to this house but they're so very dirty and moldy...the landloard was to have them cleaned, after moved in, but didn't....they're made with hard rippled plastic which flilters the sun alot...don't know if would very healthy plants and collects alot of dirt... there are some pine trees the yard, well most the island, so will collect some for tea...thanks...use fresh ginger ?

"
.........

No, it's packaged, and sometimes I leave the bag in the water a few hours, so I come in from outside and mix the tea with a large glass of fresh water, it turns into cold tea. It's ginger heaven.  Getting away from processed foods is going to take time, like losing the ego. The simple values in life mean the most, and sharing, saving energy, reducing waste Changing now makes for the larger change later, habit
"
.........

They say lemon and honey are good with the tea, boiled about 10 minutes.
"
.........

thanks

haven't added lemon to tea, though have added honey after

juice from 1 ripe lemon and honey  in a glass of water is lovely too

ripe lemons or raw apple cider vinegar (though they're acidic an alkaline ash is created once digested) can be used for making salad dressings (i use avacodos instead of cold pressed oils)

yes simple :)

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91142
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.21.2009
08:30AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line Quote: "

Hearty breakfast: aloe juice, porridge [jumbo oats, oat-milk] - oat-milk makes porridge soooooo creamy, raisins, sultanas, dried apricots [unsulphured], pumpkin and sunflower seeds, apple juice.


"
.........

"
.........

:)

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91143
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.21.2009
08:32AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

Quote: "Ran a mile and a half...had to loose the shoes to cool down. Then came home and made a wicked bean and corn chile.Junk food looses its taste after a while .Becomes yucky. Wish I could do something about the state of the world. We all deserve the basic things."
.........

yes enough richness the planet for all humans food

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91144
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.21.2009
01:53PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "A Childhood Memory
Paulette Callen

The stench. Why did my mother bring me here? Oh, yes...she had a message for somebody who worked here. I walked by this strangely shaped grey building with no windows every day on my way to and from school. A building without windows. What kind of building doesn’t have windows?

Sometimes I heard sounds coming from inside. Muffled. High-pitched. Like people screaming. But it couldn’t be. I was old enough to know that just couldn’t be. Nothing bad could be happening in there. It wouldn’t be allowed. I was old enough to know that. So I passed the building each morning and evening with a strange prickling of dread, and forgot about it till the next time.

Until that day my mother took me inside. The place was thick with a reeking steam that rose out of a cauldron gurgling and frothing with oily brown bubbles. The smell. Feces. Urine. I was sorting out the smells — rather, my brain was sorting them by itself. I was trying to block them out. Something was being hauled out of the cauldron, either on a rope or belt, or maybe giant pincers, I couldn’t tell. It was up and out and swung off to the side out of my line of vision.

The smell. Blood. Old, standing, congealing, rotting blood mingled with the warm metallic smell of flesh. I could see blood now, on the floor oozing from a place where I couldn’t see. The man talking to my mother was wearing high rubber boots and a rubber apron, all spattered with slime.

The smells. Singed flesh and hair and something else...now what was happening?

A door slid open with a soft woosh of wood on wood. I looked down into the seething cauldron. The chute was slick with brown and yellow excrement...what?...a pig was shoved through the door onto a dock and poised there, just blinking. He was pink and brown and seemed to shine above the muck he looked down upon. I thought: He is smelling the same things I am.

A man on a platform above whacked the pig across the forehead with a large rod of some kind, but he didn’t go down. He wasn’t dead. He wasn’t even stunned and he began to scream before he fell. His knees buckled, in fear, I think, not from the blow, and he slid down the chute screaming. Screaming.

A scream, I have observed since, is much the same, whatever the species that utters it.

A scream born of terror: the sound of Being, in pain.

I’ve heard a cat scream and it sounded just like a child. A horse that sounded like a man. A man who sounded like — one of his compatriots said at the time — “like a stuck pig.” It’s all the same.

The pig, screaming, slid down the chute into the cauldron of boiling muck. He didn’t stop screaming till the muck closed over his head. In a moment he, too, was lifted out and another creature stood blinking and shining at the top of the chute.

I staggered out of the slaughterhouse and leaned against the back wall, vomiting. My mother found me. “What’s the matter, Honey? Have an upset stomach? Here.” She handed me her handkerchief. It was trimmed with ecru lace. “Let’s go home and settle your stomach. You’ll probably feel better after you’ve had something to eat.”


A cause for tears and sobbing, for wails and cries, for deep regrets, and mournful cries.




"

.........

I was brought up on a diet of animal flesh and cow’s milk. When I realised where the food was coming from and how it was produced, I didn’t need anyone to tell me there was something wrong with it, I didn’t need to meditate on it. Nor did I accept the self-serving justifications of my parents for their so-called belief that it was fine and natural to eat meat. My body involuntarily knew what to do. Knew it was wrong to deprive an animal of the right to a natural life, to instigate the birth of an animal only to abuse, torture and kill, in order to satisfy a lip-smacking learned taste for animal flesh. The attempt by meat-eaters to rationalise the suffering of animals out of their diet, with the spurious argument that they are cared for, looked after and treated humanely in the factory farming system, springs from avoidance and is not true.

There is, of course, the “we are meant to eat meat” argument. It’s interesting that those who use this argument, also cite human evolution from apes out of the trees, apes who then went happily roaming the earth in packs, warring against each other, driving herds of bison over cliff edges and tearing strips of flesh from woolly mammoths using their huge jaws and sabre like teeth. The unnatural treatment of animals and the torture they endure in the factory farming system, begs the question: what do they think humans are evolving into?

The digestive tract of a carnivore is short and able to deal with the consumption of large amounts of animal flesh without the it putrefying in the gut. Humans are not carnivores - the human digestive tract is much longer than that of a carnivore and is unsuited to dealing with animal flesh, which can remain in the gut of a human for up to 10 years. It’s no coincidence that in the west, where there is a high consumption of animal protein, there is also a proportionately high incidence of bowel cancers. Conversely, the waste excreted from vegetable protein is passed through the human intestine within 24 hours. Carnivores eat meat; herbivores eat plants. We are omnivores, neither carnivore nor herbivore. The point is, we do not have to eat the flesh of animals in order to live.

The factory farming of animals is a major cause of global warming; the consumption of animal flesh is causing the rich to become ill and the poor to starve.

Some like to call themselves Buddhists or Zen Buddhists, selectively citing what they believe are the words of Gautama Buddha as touchstones for their beliefs or to justify their prejudices. Gautama Buddha never wrote a word. His followers wrote a lot of words though - followers who were squabbling among themselves [still squabbling today], about what they thought he meant by this, and what they thought he meant by that, even while he was dying from food poisoning - from the eating of rotten meat. He is supposed to have told his followers not to eat the flesh of animals. We are further told, however, that as his followers move from village to village, and someone donates meat, then it’s ok to eat it, because, we are told Buddha said, it’s ok to eat animal flesh providing the animal has not been killed especially for you. Well, when the meat-eating Buddhist hands over cash to Mcdonalds, the supermarket or butcher, for a hamburger, a leg of lamb, chicken, a pork chop or prime rib, etc., the animal has been killed especially for you.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91148
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.21.2009
03:01PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line It's like after the diet is changed, one's plate is emptied of all sorrow.

The anger is taken out of eating, the fear out of feasting.

One is happy with less in fasting.

The small holds only wonder with satisfaction  everlasting.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91149
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.21.2009
06:59PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Whoah, my first real all vegetarian poop. It was sometnin' to talk about. Oh, unless you are eating, these words. sorr sorr. Go ahead. Big one! I, ah...
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91153
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.21.2009
07:21PM EDT 
vertical line Whoooplft . . . as above, so below.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91154
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.21.2009
08:19PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line First there was the urge to go. Lucky for me I made it to the throne. And then there was the quick release factor, I mean... no need to push, like rollin' a cabbage down a shoot. The time factor was longer, turned off the lights and set the mood with a humming tone, no grunt grunt groin noises, I mean groan, like the pope would make, or could, if I was him. Um, the only reason I used the pope's name was cuz it's close to the poop name, but... may it rest in piece, s. If thou art behind me! Hey! Oh.

PeeP! No pee nuts!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91155
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Jan.21.2009
10:49PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line

As an aspiring chef I have been thinking on this issue as a big part
of my concern. My goal is to have a place where everyone can enjoy.
To neglect meat altogether isn't the answer. For me it is a moderation
and balance thing. It's just a growing passion of mine to be able to cook for
people who are hungry. It's the daily necessity of most beings. That being the
case which is my drive to be a chef. The possibilities are endless with or without
meat. I seek though to satisfy the taste buds in the most enlightened way.

sit_teh

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91156
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.22.2009
08:41AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Pass out animal hats, and allow the animals to free range in the room.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91168
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from shayne
Jan.22.2009
09:48AM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line

me i had a spam burger last night.....opps night before.

homemade salsebury steak last night.

this morning......grilled ham and cheese.

yummy in my tummy.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91174
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.22.2009
04:28PM EDT 
vertical line http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HLNHim0MTdE&NR=1
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91196
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.22.2009
04:31PM EDT 
vertical line Monkey Nuts.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91197
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.22.2009
04:44PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line I had this leftover turkey lunch meat. And, didn't want to waste. And, I thought about it, And, then I closed my eyes. And, felt my way into the fridge. And, no no, not yet I didn't. And, could identify the packaging by feel. And, had some nice whole grain bread, very fresh. And, my grapes are taking longer than I thought, to dry,  like the manual said. And, I was hungry. And, just had a long snow walk with the dogs. And, had a protein deficiency feeling.  And, they like lunch meat leftovers, the dognuts. And, by now you're salivating, as did the dogs, all of us. And, that's perfectly normal, if there is a perfect normalcy. And, made some tea, iced. And, tried not to think, but taste instead. And, it was really delicious. And, yeah. 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91199
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.22.2009
04:53PM EDT 
vertical line cool

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91200
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.22.2009
07:14PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Then, later, went for a major ski in deep snow, cutting my own trail, it took my turkey sandwich, and burned it all up, although it took about half way out to feel it. Then, after the turkey kicked in, my breathing became more even, and deeper, I loosened up, and came back on the fresh cut trail I had just made, so I got a bit of glide going. Then, I came back inside, but had to go into town for errands, and suddenly it hit  - the urge for sweets. Then, I felt kind of ashamed, my tongue seemed to be ruling me, ... and I, could not... (sniff...) I could not, give in. Then, it was like crawling across the floor to find a peaceful spot, and I offered my tongue an alternative, some peanuts (salmonella free, I told it, my tongue and I agreed) and the chewing seemed to be as important as that small residual sweet taste. Then, I had to use that as the reward, instead of the taste, just the act of chewing became the focus. Then, I went to town, all sweaty from the ski, wearing only a shirt. Then, realizing how that might not be in the best taste of others seeing, I put on some pants, and went, to town, for a no cholesterol candy bar... cranberry, apple and cherry one. Then,  I ate it, slowly, forgetting the chewing, I gave in to the completely sound of a healthy taste treat.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91201
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.22.2009
07:28PM EDT 
vertical line http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ0Bi_5TNuc&feature=related
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91202
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.22.2009
08:45PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

Quote: "The digestive tract of a carnivore is short and able to deal with the consumption of large amounts of animal flesh without the it putrefying in the gut. Humans are not carnivores - the human digestive tract is much longer than that of a carnivore and is unsuited to dealing with animal flesh, which can remain in the gut of a human for up to 10 years. It’s no coincidence that in the west, where there is a high consumption of animal protein, there is also a proportionately high incidence of bowel cancers. Conversely, the waste excreted from vegetable protein is passed through the human intestine within 24 hours. Carnivores eat meat; herbivores eat plants. We are omnivores, neither carnivore nor herbivore. The point is, we do not have to eat the flesh of animals in order to live.

The factory farming of animals is a major cause of global warming; the consumption of animal flesh is causing the rich to become ill and the poor to starve.

Some like to call themselves Buddhists or Zen Buddhists, selectively citing what they believe are the words of Gautama Buddha as touchstones for their beliefs or to justify their prejudices. Gautama Buddha never wrote a word. His followers wrote a lot of words though - followers who were squabbling among themselves [still squabbling today], about what they thought he meant by this, and what they thought he meant by that, even while he was dying from food poisoning - from the eating of rotten meat. He is supposed to have told his followers not to eat the flesh of animals. We are further told, however, that as his followers move from village to village, and someone donates meat, then it’s ok to eat it, because, we are told Buddha said, it’s ok to eat animal flesh providing the animal has not been killed especially for you. Well, when the meat-eating Buddhist hands over cash to Mcdonalds, the supermarket or butcher, for a hamburger, a leg of lamb, chicken, a pork chop or prime rib, etc., the animal has been killed especially for you.
"
.........

excellent

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91205
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.22.2009
09:03PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Pears look like tree teardrops of golden delight falling all the way to earth, at one time living up in your eyes, at another giving life to any who might stop and call at night.

One, within one, within one, within White.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91206
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from shayne
Jan.22.2009
09:04PM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line hamburgers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91207
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.22.2009
09:08PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line I feel one comin' now. Heads or tails? I'll tell ya if I look down there.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91208
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.22.2009
09:14PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Whoah! I just crapped out a pine tree! I can tell cuz it floats, and is green. I guess it's a nice color. Now where am I gonna plant that thing? 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91209
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.22.2009
09:30PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

Quote: "Pears look like tree teardrops of golden delight falling all the way to earth, at one time living up in your eyes, at another giving life to any who might stop and call at night.

One, within one, within one, within White.
"
.........

silvering gold through dewdrop finger tips you leak singing quietly lit

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91211
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from bluefly
Jan.23.2009
08:45AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

im the hamburgler.....and im coming to get my beef patty.

wheres the beef?

siddhartha DIED of meat poisoning.

dont mean your more enlightened.

but i do find what you say interesting.

"
........Hello everyone, I just had to jump in. Whenever I read this gossip *and thats what it is* about Siddartha, I want to run my mouth with corrections. So here's my run...
Siddartha did die of poisoning...from truffles. His lay followers made him a meal and invited him over. They did this around once a month. He never refused and they never offered meat. What this patricular person offered was a meal of truffles and cream. It is the mixup of the word fruffles, which in some languages is almost the same as pig, that makes people think he ate poisoned meat. The mushrooms *truffles* were poison and he knew it at the frist bite. He asked the person where he got the mushrooms and was told where. Buddha then told him to dig them up and bury them. He also told him that this was the best meal he'd ever eaten, allowed nobody else to have some of it and continued to eat. He then asked them to bury the leftovers so nobody else could eat it  Later as he lay dying, he heard that the person who made the meal was upset about poisoning the Buddha. He had Ananda tell him that his first and last meals were the best he'd ever eaten and well worth it.
Ananda had a perfect memory and was the only one given sanction by the Buddha to write down what he said. Buddha knew that people changed what was said due to imperfect memory or because they thought it sounded better and that is why only Ananda was allowed to write down his words. Also, He did eat meat but only when it was offered during his daily begging for food. He only had one meal a day and if someone gave him meat, he didn't turn in down. When his bowl was full, he'd go home and usually share it with others who ddin't get food or were too it to go begging. That's my rant and I hope this clears some misconceptions.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91230
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.23.2009
08:55AM EDT 
vertical line Any perceived misconception is irrelevant, but hey, that's religion for you.  What the Buddha ate was his business.  Same goes for Ananda. 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91231
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from bluefly
Jan.23.2009
01:01PM EDT 
vertical line It is when someone misquotes to use as a reference on what to eat or not eat. What the Buddha ate is important because people to this day, follow his guidelines. Because it is not important to you what words you use does not mean its not important to someone else who is watching and reading. Intuition, care and practice is what makes you a skillful human. You happen to be born human and not a plant. You have a human brain, mouth and body. It is important how you use them.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91243
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Rebecca
Jan.23.2009
01:14PM EDT 
Email Rebecca
vertical line Quote: "It is when someone misquotes to use as a reference on what to eat or not eat. What the Buddha ate is important because people to this day, follow his guidelines. Because it is not important to you what words you use does not mean its not important to someone else who is watching and reading. Intuition, care and practice is what makes you a skillful human. You happen to be born human and not a plant. You have a human brain, mouth and body. It is important how you use them. "
......... Guideline for intuition?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91244
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.23.2009
01:26PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "It is when someone misquotes to use as a reference on what to eat or not eat. What the Buddha ate is important because people to this day, follow his guidelines. Because it is not important to you what words you use does not mean its not important to someone else who is watching and reading. Intuition, care and practice is what makes you a skillful human. You happen to be born human and not a plant. You have a human brain, mouth and body. It is important how you use them. "
.........


"Because it is not important to you what words you use does not mean its not important to someone else who is watching and reading."  Why do you think it is not important to me what words I use?  When did I say that it is not important to me what words I use?  
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91246
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.23.2009
01:30PM EDT 
vertical line
Reply from shayne
Jan.19.2009 
01:26PM GMT-1 
?Email shayne 
?Mark as Inappropriate 
?View shayne's other postings 
?Ignore all shayne's postings
vertical line

im the hamburgler.....and im coming to get my beef patty.

wheres the beef?

siddhartha DIED of meat poisoning.

dont mean your more enlightened.

but i do find what you say interesting.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91248
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.23.2009
01:32PM EDT 
vertical line
Reply from Rustic
Jan.21.2009 
05:53PM GMT-1 
?Email Rustic 
?Mark as Inappropriate 
?View Rustic's other postings 
?Ignore all Rustic's postings
vertical line Quote: "A Childhood Memory
Paulette Callen

The stench. Why did my mother bring me here? Oh, yes...she had a message for somebody who worked here. I walked by this strangely shaped grey building with no windows every day on my way to and from school. A building without windows. What kind of building doesn’t have windows?

Sometimes I heard sounds coming from inside. Muffled. High-pitched. Like people screaming. But it couldn’t be. I was old enough to know that just couldn’t be. Nothing bad could be happening in there. It wouldn’t be allowed. I was old enough to know that. So I passed the building each morning and evening with a strange prickling of dread, and forgot about it till the next time.

Until that day my mother took me inside. The place was thick with a reeking steam that rose out of a cauldron gurgling and frothing with oily brown bubbles. The smell. Feces. Urine. I was sorting out the smells — rather, my brain was sorting them by itself. I was trying to block them out. Something was being hauled out of the cauldron, either on a rope or belt, or maybe giant pincers, I couldn’t tell. It was up and out and swung off to the side out of my line of vision.

The smell. Blood. Old, standing, congealing, rotting blood mingled with the warm metallic smell of flesh. I could see blood now, on the floor oozing from a place where I couldn’t see. The man talking to my mother was wearing high rubber boots and a rubber apron, all spattered with slime.

The smells. Singed flesh and hair and something else...now what was happening?

A door slid open with a soft woosh of wood on wood. I looked down into the seething cauldron. The chute was slick with brown and yellow excrement...what?...a pig was shoved through the door onto a dock and poised there, just blinking. He was pink and brown and seemed to shine above the muck he looked down upon. I thought: He is smelling the same things I am.

A man on a platform above whacked the pig across the forehead with a large rod of some kind, but he didn’t go down. He wasn’t dead. He wasn’t even stunned and he began to scream before he fell. His knees buckled, in fear, I think, not from the blow, and he slid down the chute screaming. Screaming.

A scream, I have observed since, is much the same, whatever the species that utters it.

A scream born of terror: the sound of Being, in pain.

I’ve heard a cat scream and it sounded just like a child. A horse that sounded like a man. A man who sounded like — one of his compatriots said at the time — “like a stuck pig.” It’s all the same.

The pig, screaming, slid down the chute into the cauldron of boiling muck. He didn’t stop screaming till the muck closed over his head. In a moment he, too, was lifted out and another creature stood blinking and shining at the top of the chute.

I staggered out of the slaughterhouse and leaned against the back wall, vomiting. My mother found me. “What’s the matter, Honey? Have an upset stomach? Here.” She handed me her handkerchief. It was trimmed with ecru lace. “Let’s go home and settle your stomach. You’ll probably feel better after you’ve had something to eat.”


A cause for tears and sobbing, for wails and cries, for deep regrets, and mournful cries.




"

.........

I was brought up on a diet of animal flesh and cow’s milk. When I realised where the food was coming from and how it was produced, I didn’t need anyone to tell me there was something wrong with it, I didn’t need to meditate on it. Nor did I accept the self-serving justifications of my parents for their so-called belief that it was fine and natural to eat meat. My body involuntarily knew what to do. Knew it was wrong to deprive an animal of the right to a natural life, to instigate the birth of an animal only to abuse, torture and kill, in order to satisfy a lip-smacking learned taste for animal flesh. The attempt by meat-eaters to rationalise the suffering of animals out of their diet, with the spurious argument that they are cared for, looked after and treated humanely in the factory farming system, springs from avoidance and is not true. 

There is, of course, the “we are meant to eat meat” argument. It’s interesting that those who use this argument, also cite human evolution from apes out of the trees, apes who then went happily roaming the earth in packs, warring against each other, driving herds of bison over cliff edges and tearing strips of flesh from woolly mammoths using their huge jaws and sabre like teeth. The unnatural treatment of animals and the torture they endure in the factory farming system, begs the question: what do they think humans are evolving into? 

The digestive tract of a carnivore is short and able to deal with the consumption of large amounts of animal flesh without the it putrefying in the gut. Humans are not carnivores - the human digestive tract is much longer than that of a carnivore and is unsuited to dealing with animal flesh, which can remain in the gut of a human for up to 10 years. It’s no coincidence that in the west, where there is a high consumption of animal protein, there is also a proportionately high incidence of bowel cancers. Conversely, the waste excreted from vegetable protein is passed through the human intestine within 24 hours. Carnivores eat meat; herbivores eat plants. We are omnivores, neither carnivore nor herbivore. The point is, we do not have to eat the flesh of animals in order to live.

The factory farming of animals is a major cause of global warming; the consumption of animal flesh is causing the rich to become ill and the poor to starve.

Some like to call themselves Buddhists or Zen Buddhists, selectively citing what they believe are the words of Gautama Buddha as touchstones for their beliefs or to justify their prejudices. Gautama Buddha never wrote a word. His followers wrote a lot of words though - followers who were squabbling among themselves [still squabbling today], about what they thought he meant by this, and what they thought he meant by that, even while he was dying from food poisoning - from the eating of rotten meat. He is supposed to have told his followers not to eat the flesh of animals. We are further told, however, that as his followers move from village to village, and someone donates meat, then it’s ok to eat it, because, we are told Buddha said, it’s ok to eat animal flesh providing the animal has not been killed especially for you. Well, when the meat-eating Buddhist hands over cash to Mcdonalds, the supermarket or butcher, for a hamburger, a leg of lamb, chicken, a pork chop or prime rib, etc., the animal has been killed especially for you. 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91249
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.23.2009
01:34PM EDT 
vertical line Hope that clears any misconceptions.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91250
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from -----0
Jan.23.2009
01:36PM EDT 
vertical line That's plan B: those who can't see the Original Mind, may follow the guidelines.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91252
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.23.2009
01:36PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line There is so much disconnection from the truth with... taste, fashion, glamor, strength, ego, ego, ego... ego. Ego is like an egg, that needs to be broken by an internal life giving force, to see life, as in every egg. I have to drink more than water to live, but maybe not in the next life, in the next egg, within the next.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91251
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.23.2009
02:16PM EDT 
vertical line The belief in the idea that Buddha died from eating rotten meat arises because of interpretation: in Pali 'sukara-maddava' - sukara means pig and maddava is a root liked by pigs. In the 19thc, Buddhist scholars suggested that sukara-maddava could be translated as 'a pig's delight' and not 'pig's flesh'. It’s the kind of thing can happen among followers, when they ignore the message and focus on the messenger.

Gautama Buddha is reported to have said, "There may be some foolish people in the future who will say that I permitted meat-eating and that I partook of meat myself."

Gautama Buddha is reported to have said, “Meat-eating I have not permitted to anyone, I do not permit, I will not permit it in any form, in any manner and in any place; it is unconditionally prohibited for all”, [Dhammapada].

He taught and promoted ahimsa, nonviolence. He opposed the mass slaughter of animals under the pretext of Vedic sacrifices.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91253
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.23.2009
02:26PM EDT 
vertical line Correction: The Lankavatara Sutra.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91254
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.23.2009
02:36PM EDT 
vertical line D.T. Suzuki in his translation of the The Lankavatara Sutra says:

"1 The chapter on meat-eating is another later addition to the text, which was probably done earlier than the Rava?a chapter. It already appears in the Sung, but of the three Chinese versions it appears here in its shortest form, the proportion being S = 1, T = 2, W = 3. It is quite likely that meat-eating was practised more or less among the earlier Buddhists, which was made a subject of severe criticism by their opponents. The Buddhists at the time of the La?kavatara did not like it, hence this addition in which an apologetic tone is noticeable."
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91255
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from -----0
Jan.23.2009
03:43PM EDT 
vertical line no zen here
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91262
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.23.2009
04:10PM EDT 
vertical line Propaganda, with coupons.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91264
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.23.2009
05:12PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Am only as good as my last munchy. And it was...! Dehydrated apple slice number 1! In three hours! Hoo hoo!! That's fast!

The grapes are gettin' there. There's no way those could dry in 10 hours or less, I'm tellin' the company. So what if the ambient room temp is 60! Ok, I'm only as good as an apple, a cold one.

I just cut a stinky turkey fart.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91265
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.23.2009
05:14PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Am only as bad as my last fart.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91266
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.23.2009
05:25PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line I took care of a cattle stockyard worker the other night, and all I could feel was compassion. 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91267
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from bluefly
Jan.24.2009
12:06PM EDT 
vertical line Good. I see that we are all in agreement. Buddha did not die from meat poisoning.That was my point. The rest was ego reaction. Ego is not an eggshell as you will see when you try to find it. Ego is rooted in deep and dark. When you confront, it cannot be seen. Insidious as poison, it grows with each molecule of food received. Each thought, each feeling, each action. Root it out and slay it with malicious glee or it will kill you. The evil of the world exists in ego.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91279
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.24.2009
12:39PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Good. I see that we are all in agreement. Buddha did not die from meat poisoning.That was my point. The rest was ego reaction. Ego is not an eggshell as you will see when you try to find it. Ego is rooted in deep and dark. When you confront, it cannot be seen. Insidious as poison, it grows with each molecule of food received. Each thought, each feeling, each action. Root it out and slay it with malicious glee or it will kill you. The evil of the world exists in ego.
"

.........

Buddha and Mara is one.

That may very well be your point. Your other point about the importance of my words was a misconception. You may believe that Gautama Buddha did not die from meat poisoning, but it isn't something you can know.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91284
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from bluefly
Jan.24.2009
12:50PM EDT 
vertical line How do you know what I know? Was I pointing at YOU or using the word you?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91288
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.24.2009
12:55PM EDT 
vertical line Yeah you're pointing at me. I didn't say I know what you know. I said it is not possible for you to know, which also means it isn't possible for me or anyone here to know, what Gautama Buddha died from. You have been told what he died from. You can't verify it with your senses so you take it on trust.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91289
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from bluefly
Jan.24.2009
01:08PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Yeah you're pointing at me. I didn't say I know what you know. I said it is not possible for you to know, which also means it isn't possible for me or anyone here to know, what Gautama Buddha died from. You have been told what he died from. You can't verify it with your senses so you take it on trust. "
.........So you are telling me what I know. You even know someone told me what nobody told me. Tathagata can die and not die. Tathagata can know and not know. You even know I was pointing at you and you cannot verify that with your senses either. Do I know you? How can I point at a you I don't know?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91290
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.24.2009
01:16PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Good. I see that we are all in agreement. Buddha did not die from meat poisoning.That was my point.  "
.........

I don't know what Buddha died from. You think you know.  Congratulations. 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91293
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.24.2009
01:18PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Yeah you're pointing at me. I didn't say I know what you know. I said it is not possible for you to know, which also means it isn't possible for me or anyone here to know, what Gautama Buddha died from. You have been told what he died from. You can't verify it with your senses so you take it on trust. "
.........So you are telling me what I know. You even know someone told me what nobody told me. Tathagata can die and not die. Tathagata can know and not know. You even know I was pointing at you and you cannot verify that with your senses either. Do I know you? How can I point at a you I don't know?
"
.........

Who told you that?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91294
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from bluefly
Jan.24.2009
01:20PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Good. I see that we are all in agreement. Buddha did not die from meat poisoning.That was my point.  "
.........

I don't know what Buddha died from. You think you know.  Congratulations. 
"
.........thank you.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91295
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from bluefly
Jan.24.2009
01:25PM EDT 
vertical line http://www.aww-kittah-aww.com/up/files/794/hairisabird.jpg
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91298
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.24.2009
01:29PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Root it out and slay it with malicious glee or it will kill you.
"

.........
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91299
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from bluefly
Jan.24.2009
01:35PM EDT 
vertical line Thank you, again. I appreciate your kind consideration for my words. I picked them with you in mind. Now, take the you out.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91302
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.24.2009
01:37PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Yeah you're pointing at me. I didn't say I know what you know. I said it is not possible for you to know, which also means it isn't possible for me or anyone here to know, what Gautama Buddha died from. You have been told what he died from. You can't verify it with your senses so you take it on trust. "
.........So you are telling me what I know. You even know someone told me what nobody told me. Tathagata can die and not die. Tathagata can know and not know. You even know I was pointing at you and you cannot verify that with your senses either. Do I know you? How can I point at a you I don't know?
"

.........

I don't know but I can see what's happening.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91303
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.24.2009
01:38PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "How do you know what I know? Was I pointing at YOU or using the word you?

"

.........

Wahey boing boing!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91304
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from bluefly
Jan.24.2009
01:43PM EDT 
vertical line

.........

I don't know but I can see what's happening.
"
.........

Good. That is useful. Seeing what is happening indicates you are using your eyes, or do I mean your mind? For the mind interprets what the eye sees. Not knowing can be even more useful.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91307
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.24.2009
01:44PM EDT 
vertical line Ok. So long.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91308
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from bluefly
Jan.24.2009
01:49PM EDT 
vertical line Nice knowing you :)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91309
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from kelvintan
Jan.26.2009
09:08PM EDT 
Email kelvintan
vertical line

Some like to call themselves Buddhists or Zen Buddhists, selectively citing what they believe are the words of Gautama Buddha as touchstones for their beliefs or to justify their prejudices. Gautama Buddha never wrote a word. His followers wrote a lot of words though - followers who were squabbling among themselves [still squabbling today], about what they thought he meant by this, and what they thought he meant by that, even while he was dying from food poisoning - from the eating of rotten meat. He is supposed to have told his followers not to eat the flesh of animals. We are further told, however, that as his followers move from village to village, and someone donates meat, then it’s ok to eat it, because, we are told Buddha said, it’s ok to eat animal flesh providing the animal has not been killed especially for you. Well, when the meat-eating Buddhist hands over cash to Mcdonalds, the supermarket or butcher, for a hamburger, a leg of lamb, chicken, a pork chop or prime rib, etc., the animal has been killed especially for you

Hi Bro Rustic

Mankind has always been addicted to its delusions and attachment. What you have said makes sense. The Buddha taught that everything is impermanent, that desire, anger and ignorance create suffering. He showed the way to attain freedom from suffering. There were no writings and not much discussion, only meditation practice. After the the Buddha died, his disciples had formed council and meetings to write down what he taught. These writings, called sutras, were not written by the Buddha, just as the Gospel were not written by Jesus. These causes so much debates.

To seekers, just do meditation. Meditation is  battling  with the mind.

With Metta

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91426
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from eukaryote
Jan.26.2009
09:44PM EDT 
Email eukaryote
vertical line Quote: "Quote:the human digestive tract is...unsuited to dealing with animal flesh, which can remain in the gut of a human for up to 10 years.
"


Do you have any evidence to support this claim?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91427
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from eukaryote
Jan.26.2009
11:11PM EDT 
Email eukaryote
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "The factory farming of animals is a major cause of global warming; the consumption of animal flesh is causing the rich to become ill and the poor to starve.

What percentage of greenhouse gas emissions are caused by factory farming?

How does consuming animal flesh cause the rich to become ill and the poor to starve?

Please provide evidence.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91428
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from zbishak
Jan.27.2009
07:20AM EDT 
Email zbishak
vertical line if you are allright with someone holding you against you will then eating your children...... or you,    after fattening you up...........cool
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91434
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.27.2009
10:44AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote:the human digestive tract is...unsuited to dealing with animal flesh, which can remain in the gut of a human for up to 10 years.
"


Do you have any evidence to support this claim?
"

.........

My father stopped eating meat on health grounds. Some years later he underwent surgery for stomach cancer, when a section of his stomach was removed. The surgeon told us that undigested meat was found in his stomach. The surgeon went on to say that this is not uncommon among people who eat large amounts of refined, processed meat while drinking insufficient water.

There is a wealth of anecdotal evidence among colonic therapists, some of whom have reported flushing out mucoidial plaque comprising meat protein in vegetarians of 20 years. However, this is a controversial area and the subject of fierce debate between alternative, holistic therapies and orthodox medicine.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91437
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.27.2009
10:55AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "The factory farming of animals is a major cause of global warming; the consumption of animal flesh is causing the rich to become ill and the poor to starve.

What percentage of greenhouse gas emissions are caused by factory farming?

How does consuming animal flesh cause the rich to become ill and the poor to starve?

Please provide evidence.
"
.........

The more meat we eat, the fewer people we can feed. If everyone on Earth received 25 percent of his or her calories from animal products, only 3.2 billion people could be nourished. Dropping that figure to 15 percent would mean that 4.2 billion people could be fed.4 If everyone went vegan, there would be more than enough food to nourish the world's entire population—more than 6.3 billion people.

"Meat consumption is an inefficient use of grain—the grain is used more efficiently when consumed by humans. Continued growth in meat output is dependent on feeding grain to animals, creating competition for grain between affluent meat-eaters and the world's poor.” [The WorldWatch Institute]


Producing the grain that is used to feed farmed animals requires vast amounts of water. It takes about 300 gallons of water per day to produce food for a vegan, and more than 4,000 gallons of water per day to produce food for a meat-eater.8,9 You save more water by not eating a pound of beef than you do by not showering for an entire year.

It should be no surprise, then, that food for a vegan can be produced on only 1/6 of an acre of land, while it takes 3 1/4 acres of land to produce food for a meat-eater.11 If we added up all the arable land on the planet and divided it equally, every human would get 2/3 of an acre—more than enough to sustain a vegetarian diet, but not nearly enough to sustain a meat-eater.

Dr. Waldo Bello, executive director of the Institute for Food and Development Policy, concurs that raising animals for meat is a waste of resources, stating, "The American fast-food diet and the meat-eating habits of the wealthy around the world support a world food system that diverts food resources from the hungry." Researchers and policymakers who study the problem of world hunger agree that we have plenty of resources to feed vegans, but not nearly enough to feed our addiction to meat.
.......................

An HSI Fact Sheet Animal Agriculture & Climate Change

HSI Fact Sheet Animal Agriculture

According to a 2006 report by the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) of the United Nations, the livestock sector emits more greenhouse gases than cars and SUVs. Greenhouse Gas Emissions (GHGs). The animal agriculture sector is responsible for 18% of greenhouse gas emissions,measured in carbon dioxide (CO 2 ) equivalent, higher than the share contributed by cars, trucks, and sport utility vehicles.

1This figure accounts for the livestock sector’s direct impacts as well as the impacts of feeding the world’s approximately63 billion farm animals.
2 Specifically, animal agriculture accounts for: • 9% of annual human-induced CO 2 emissions.
3 • 37% of methane (CH 4 ) emissions, which has more than 20 times the global warming potential of CO 2.
4 and • 65% of nitrous oxide (N 2 O) emissions, which has almost 300 times CO 2 ’s global warming potential.
5 Mapping has shown a strong relationship between excessive nitrogen in the atmosphere and the location of intensive farm animal production areas.
6 At virtually every step of meat, egg, and dairy production, climate-changing gases are released into the atmosphere, disrupting weather, temperature, and ecosystem health.
7 Farm Animal Waste. As animal agriculture has intensified in recent decades, more animals have been intensively confined in fewer, but larger, operations. Many are warehoused by the tens if not hundreds of thousands in industrialized production facilities known as factory farms, which results in large amounts of animal waste to be concentrated in small areas. In the United States, to provide one notable example, the U.S. Department of Agriculture estimates that confined farm animals generate approximately 500 million tons of manure annually, three times more raw waste than generated by Americans.

...................

FOOD AND AGRICULTURE ORGANIZATION OF THE UNITED NATIONS
Rome, 2007

Livestock's Long Shadow








vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91438
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from eukaryote
Jan.27.2009
01:07PM EDT 
Email eukaryote
vertical line Thanks Rustic

The issue of global warming is extremely complex. While agriculture no doubt contributes to greenhouse gas emissions, it is in reality dwarfed by the contribution from the burning of fossil fuels for energy. I asked for evidence for your claim because it is very difficult to pin down exact figures for the amount of greenhouse gases caused by factory farming. The link you provided states one figure, but I have found various figures that are different. Here are a couple:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/greenhouse/Chapter1.htm
http://yosemite.epa.gov/OAR/globalwarming.nsf/UniqueKeyLookup/RAMR5WNMKC/$File/04agriculture.pdf

While I agree the practice of factory farming is morally abhorrent, It seems that methane makes up a relatively small portion of greenhouse gas emissions. The use of fossil fuels for farming equipment and vehicles is at least as important, and that could be solved by developing alternative sources of energy.

As for the meat industry making poor people poorer. It may be the case that raising livestock is more inefficient than growing crops, but many poor people throughout the world are entirely dependent on their livestock as a means of food and income. They don't have the capacity to grow crops because they don't have the land.

Does eating meat make you ill? I very much doubt that claim. It cannot be contested that humans have evolved as omnivores. One problem vegetarians face is a lack of vitamin B12 in the diet. This is only found in animal sources and vegans in particular need to supplement their diet with this vitamin.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

So, we cannot live healthily on an entirely vegan diet. You stated that meat-eaters often use the argument that we are meant to eat meat. While this is no doubt true, it is not a valid moral argument for people in rich western countries. It is probable however, that meat was a driving factor in the evolution of the human brain. You refute this argument by asking what are humans evolving into? I suspect this was meant as an attack on meat-eaters rather than a well-thought out scientific argument. If not, it displays a poor understanding of evolution.

Finally, I cannot really comment on your father's case or what you were told by his surgeon. Having said that, it seems highly improbable that any food matter could remain in the digestive tract for longer than a few days. To start with, the stomach is highly acidic. It has a PH of between 2 and 3. This is enough to dissolve most things. If we have trouble digesting anything, it is plant matter. This actually turns out to be a good thing though since undigested cellulose aids the digestive process. Nevertheless, most food is digested by the stomach.

I did suspect you would bring up the issue of mucoidial plaque, which is why I asked for evidence. Anecdotal evidence is not really evidence. No scientific studies ever use anecdotal evidence because it is highly unreliable. That issue aside, there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of mucoidial plaques. Mucus is essential for the human body. Also, colonic irrigation is not only unnecessary, but harmful. I wouldn't take the word of anybody involved in this dubious therapy.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91442
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Rebecca
Jan.27.2009
03:13PM EDT 
Email Rebecca
vertical line Ive read that the oldest people in the world eat little or no meat.Among other factors.They retain their activness and clear mindedness long after most people.Just a thing to throw into all this. Whether someone eats meat or not is a personal choice. Why compare, or be right or wrong.Some things are facts but when it comes to health, how does one feel?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91443
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from shayne
Jan.27.2009
06:12PM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line

hamburgers rule!

you drool.

hahaha.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91448
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.27.2009
07:30PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line taste rules ?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91449
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.27.2009
07:35PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

Quote: "Ive read that the oldest people in the world eat little or no meat.Among other factors.They retain their activness and clear mindedness long after most people.Just a thing to throw into all this. Whether someone eats meat or not is a personal choice. Why compare, or be right or wrong.Some things are facts but when it comes to health, how does one feel?"
.........

raw meat digests easily, cooked meat putrifies

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91450
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.27.2009
07:36PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line all cooked food is acidic and lacks enzymes for digesting
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91451
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.27.2009
10:08PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Thank God for the fast. Eventually, if you fast enough, even God is freed.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91458
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.27.2009
10:33PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

imagined free-notfree ?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91460
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.27.2009
10:45PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line play/work
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91463
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.27.2009
11:40PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

plrk ;)

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91467
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from floating_a
Jan.28.2009
01:01AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "And conditioning. I started by dropping pork and beef, and my family dropped me. It was like, "Whoah, what else don't we have in common?" Then I gave up booze, tv, small talk, and complaining. Now, I'm a complete outcast. So I feed the birds, squirrels and rabbits, and haven't eaten them yet. I still hurt the atmosphere when driving my car to the store for beans. And I have some leather gloves. And watch the computer, out of necessity. "
.........

I laughed just then reading this and my sis looked over at me. But I laughed out of recognition, and - am grateful. Thanks for the encouragement _/\_
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91469
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.28.2009
02:16AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line what's as though encouraged ?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91473
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Rebecca
Jan.28.2009
03:25AM EDT 
Email Rebecca
vertical line Quote: "Thank God for the fast. Eventually, if you fast enough, even God is freed. "
......... But beware.It can only starve desires and create the illusion of a freed God
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91476
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.28.2009
08:17AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Thank God for the fast. Eventually, if you fast enough, even God is freed. "
......... But beware.It can only starve desires and create the illusion of a freed God
"
.........

I know, was just writing it for shayne, who things God is a cow.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91478
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Jan.28.2009
08:20AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Thanks Rustic

The issue of global warming is extremely complex. While agriculture no doubt contributes to greenhouse gas emissions, it is in reality dwarfed by the contribution from the burning of fossil fuels for energy. I asked for evidence for your claim because it is very difficult to pin down exact figures for the amount of greenhouse gases caused by factory farming. The link you provided states one figure, but I have found various figures that are different. Here are a couple:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/greenhouse/Chapter1.htm
http://yosemite.epa.gov/OAR/globalwarming.nsf/UniqueKeyLookup/RAMR5WNMKC/$File/04agriculture.pdf

While I agree the practice of factory farming is morally abhorrent, It seems that methane makes up a relatively small portion of greenhouse gas emissions. The use of fossil fuels for farming equipment and vehicles is at least as important, and that could be solved by developing alternative sources of energy.

As for the meat industry making poor people poorer. It may be the case that raising livestock is more inefficient than growing crops, but many poor people throughout the world are entirely dependent on their livestock as a means of food and income. They don't have the capacity to grow crops because they don't have the land.

Does eating meat make you ill? I very much doubt that claim. It cannot be contested that humans have evolved as omnivores. One problem vegetarians face is a lack of vitamin B12 in the diet. This is only found in animal sources and vegans in particular need to supplement their diet with this vitamin.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

So, we cannot live healthily on an entirely vegan diet. You stated that meat-eaters often use the argument that we are meant to eat meat. While this is no doubt true, it is not a valid moral argument for people in rich western countries. It is probable however, that meat was a driving factor in the evolution of the human brain. You refute this argument by asking what are humans evolving into? I suspect this was meant as an attack on meat-eaters rather than a well-thought out scientific argument. If not, it displays a poor understanding of evolution.

Finally, I cannot really comment on your father's case or what you were told by his surgeon. Having said that, it seems highly improbable that any food matter could remain in the digestive tract for longer than a few days. To start with, the stomach is highly acidic. It has a PH of between 2 and 3. This is enough to dissolve most things. If we have trouble digesting anything, it is plant matter. This actually turns out to be a good thing though since undigested cellulose aids the digestive process. Nevertheless, most food is digested by the stomach.

I did suspect you would bring up the issue of mucoidial plaque, which is why I asked for evidence. Anecdotal evidence is not really evidence. No scientific studies ever use anecdotal evidence because it is highly unreliable. That issue aside, there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of mucoidial plaques. Mucus is essential for the human body. Also, colonic irrigation is not only unnecessary, but harmful. I wouldn't take the word of anybody involved in this dubious therapy.
"
.........


I’ve given clear reasons why many years ago I stopped eating meat.  It wasn’t this body which knew what to do when it realised where the meat was coming from and how it was produced.  It was so many years ago, it wasn’t this body at all.  In the early days, after saying no to meat, I wavered, coming up against strong opposition, hostility and mistrust, which had the effect of strengthening my resolve not to eat the flesh of animals. So the words I wrote about it in that long post, are grounded in experience - call it a witness statement. 

You say you cannot really comment on my father’s case and then proceed to comment. The information provided by the surgeon who operated on my father included the evidence that his immune system was shot and also that his digestive system wasn’t working correctly. I am not a surgeon - I only recounted what we were told.  It appeared that within his stomach were partially healed ulcers and tumours which had become incorporated into the stomach lining containing undigested meat. I’m not about to provide you with a full pathology of my father’s condition.

“The adverse health impacts of excessive meat-eating stem in large part from what nutritionists call the "great protein fiasco" - a mistaken belief of many Westerners that they need to consume large quantities of protein. This myth, propagated as much as a century ago by health officials and governmental dietary guidelines, has resulted in Americans and other members of industrial societies ingesting twice as much protein as they need. Among the affluent, the protein myth is dangerous because of the saturated fats that accompany concentrated protein in meat and dairy products. Those fats are associated with most of the diseases of affluence that are among the leading causes of death in industrial countries: heart disease, stroke, and breast and colon cancer,” (Lipton 1983; WHO 1990; Kummer 1991; Pimentel et al. 1991; NRC 1989).

“The U.S. National Research Council, the US Surgeon General, the American Heart Association, and the World Health Organization are among the organizations now recommending low-fat diets. From the current US norm of 37 percent of calories from fats--typical for Western nations--they recommend lowering fat consumption to no more than 30 percent of calories,” (NRC 1988; Byrne 1988).

“Recent findings indicate that even that level may be too high. One study of 88,000 American nurses found daily red-meat eaters are two-and-a-half times as likely to develop colon cancer as near-vegetarians. Based on these findings, Walter Willett, director of the study and a researcher at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston, commented, 'the optimum amount of red meat you eat should be zero,'" (Willett et al. 1990; Kolata 1990).

You asked for evidence as to how meat eating is making the rich ill and the poor starve. That evidence is inextricably linked to the evidence that intensive animal agriculture in affluent cultures is a major cause of global warming / climate change.

Beans, nuts, seeds, lentils, and whole grains are packed with protein. These protein sources have some excellent benefits that animal protein does not - they contain plenty of fibre and complex carbohydrates, meat has none.  Neither does plant-based protein contain cholesterol or high amounts of saturated fat.

You suspected I’d bring up the issue of mucoidial plaque which is why you asked for evidence?  I suspect that indicates you weren’t looking for evidence.  As I wrote, this is a controversial area and the subject of fierce debate between alternative, holistic therapies and orthodox medicine, any benefits of colonic therapy, hotly contested by orthodox medicine. It is, however not a new fad.  The purging of the body has been practiced in diverse cultures for hundreds of years.

No matter how rigorous scientific enquiry aims to be, it will always have a subjective element - the subjective views of the researchers are often built in to the scientific method.  Evidence can always be disputed if not refuted. So there are scientists who agree with the findings contained within the Livestock’s Long Shadow report and there are scientists who dispute the findings. There are people today who believe that smoking tobacco doesn’t cause cancer, that asbestos is a safe building material.

I am not drawing any parallels between the eating of meat [raw or cooked] by indigenous peoples, where animals are either hunted in their natural environment or kept in small herds.  The comment about what humans are evolving into is begging the question: evolving into what? - given that humans, in the main, have moved from a nomadic life to a system where tens of thousands of animals are confined in one small area, kept in unnatural conditions, treated as commodities, pumped full of antibiotics and hormones, shipped around like furniture, with no regard for their welfare.

Interestingly, when a carnivore has made a kill, usually the first part of the animal eaten is the stomach containing partially digested plant material.  All felines and canines, for example, relish this and obtain many vitamins and minerals from that part of the herbivore’s body.  Now, most people in the west don’t eat raw meat, let alone the stomach contents of herbivores complete with hair and fur, which assist a carnivore’s digestion.  If a stray hair finds its way inadvertently in to my food and then my mouth, I am immediately aware of something which feels alien.  It is very difficult for a human to swallow a hair let alone huge chunks of fur.

To be truly healthful, a diet must be best not just for individuals in isolation but must allow all six billion people to thrive and achieve a sustainable coexistence with the many other species that form the living earth. From this standpoint, the natural adaptation for most (possibly all) humans in the modern world is a vegetarian or vegan diet. There is nothing natural about the abomination of modern factory farming and its attempt to reduce living, feeling beings to machines. 

With regard to your comments on vitamin B12.  In choosing to use fortified foods or B12 supplements, vegans are taking their B12 from the same source as every other animal on the planet, micro-organisms.

Vegans using adequate amounts of fortified foods or B12 supplements are much less likely to suffer from B12 deficiency than the typical meat eater. The Institute of Medicine, in setting the US recommended intakes for B12 makes this very clear: "Because 10 to 30 percent of older people may be unable to absorb naturally occurring vitamin B12, it is advisable for those older than 50 years to meet their RDA mainly by consuming foods fortified with vitamin B12 or a vitamin B12-containing supplement," [Institute of Medicine].  Vitamin B12 need not be a problem .

Neither do we have to eat fish for our Essential Fatty Acids.  EFAs are to be found in hempseed and flaxseed. 

It may be that in our "original" state, human beings absorbed enough B12 by eating foods grown and harvested in natural environments like forests. However, human beings can't produce their own B12, and in the modern world much of our food is produced in a "hygienic" way involving sprays, washing and so on, which remove the B12 sources from our plant-based foods.

What this means for vegetarians is that a pure vegetarian diet will probably not contain sufficient B12 for our body's needs.

Some plant foods are considered as possible but not reliable sources of B12. These include spirulina, sea vegetables, fermented products like miso and tempeh, and mushrooms. However, it has been shown that they either do not contain enough B12, or do not contain the right kind of B12 to meet the body's requirements.

The safest way to ensure that a vegetarian/vegan vitamin B12 intake is adequate, is to take a vitamin B-12 supplement.  

Vitamin B12 is readily available in a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet through the consumption of eggs and dairy products. However, it is not readily available in vegan diets.  Because Vitamin B12 is not naturally occurring in modern vegan diets, some people argue that this is proof that vegetarian diets are not "natural" - that we were "meant" to eat meat.

B12 is a unique nutrient. It is produced by micro-organisms found in the soil and on the surface of plants. However, it is destroyed by pesticides and washing.

B12 is not produced by the bodies of animals. Herbivores eat raw and unwashed plant foods, such as grasses and fruits, and so ingest the micro-organisms. Carnivores eat herbivores, and receive the B12 "second hand" from them.

In some herbivores, the micro-organisms can get established in the gut of the animal and live there, producing B12 which then supplies some or all of the animal's B12 needs. Thus, some animals can live without a continous external supply, instead meeting their body's needs from "within".

The ‘B12 argument’ is not an argument against the "natural-ness" of vegan diets, because:

Humans, as plant eaters, would naturally ingest B12-producing micro-organisms by eating unwashed and naturally grown fruits and vegetables. However, in the sanitised modern world where vegetables are sprayed, washed, sterilised, transported, stored etc, the poor little mites are all gone by the time it is eaten. Therefore the lack of B12 is not caused by the plant-based diet, but rather, by modern methods of prdoucing food.

It has been found that some herbivores don't need a continuous supply of B12 through their food. Instead, the B12 micro-organisms can become established as live colonies in their guts, where they produce B12 which the animal is able to assimilate to meet its needs. 

It has not been categorically established, but it seems a reasonable hypothesis, that human beings originally also had this capacity. However, through thousands of years of meat-eating, our capacity to meet our B12 needs in this way has atrophied, leaving us with the need for a continuous external supply. 

It seems that when meat putrefies in the long human intestines - our intestines are longer than the intestines of carnivores but slightly shorter than those of herbivores - the acidic environment which results, is fatal for the micro-organisms. Continuous meat eating over time may have prevented the micro-organisms from being able to get established in the human body. It is also hypothesised that due to the long absence of the micro-organisms from our guts, the human body's ability to assimilate B12 from micro-organisms living in its own guts may have changed.

I’m lucky to have access to land where I can produce much of the food I eat myself. What I don’t produce myself I source from organic wholefood growers.


vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91480
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from shayne
Jan.28.2009
09:31AM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line

had bacon and eggs for breakfast.

mmm mmm good.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91486
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.28.2009
10:38AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Cereal, nuts, dried cherries, and my dehydrated raisins, orange juice, and pet the pig, or shayne that is.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91489
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.28.2009
03:08PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Ok, got the dehydrator loaded up with pumpkin slices, covered in cinnamon, brown sugar and nutmeg. I'll give it 8 hours. Then the taste. 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91512
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Rebecca
Jan.28.2009
06:24PM EDT 
Email Rebecca
vertical line Quote: "Ok, got the dehydrator loaded up with pumpkin slices, covered in cinnamon, brown sugar and nutmeg. I'll give it 8 hours. Then the taste.  "
......... Alright,thats it. Im taking the pumpkins out of storage and going to make pumpkin fruit rolls.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91513
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.28.2009
06:40PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Ahhh, after a fine ski and long dogwalk, the fresh scent of pumpkin spice, orange slice, apple and purple grapes fills the air. A deep breath of heaven, and the sky is still bright.
And, now I sit with a strong warm cup of ginger tea... it's just right.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91514
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.29.2009
04:24AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line ok, am coming...where's house ? ;)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91537
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.29.2009
04:25AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

Quote: "Ahhh, after a fine ski and long dogwalk, the fresh scent of pumpkin spice, orange slice, apple and purple grapes fills the air. A deep breath of heaven, and the sky is still bright.
And, now I sit with a strong warm cup of ginger tea... it's just right.
"
.........

:)

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91538
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Jan.29.2009
04:43AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Thanks Rustic

The issue of global warming is extremely complex. While agriculture no doubt contributes to greenhouse gas emissions, it is in reality dwarfed by the contribution from the burning of fossil fuels for energy. I asked for evidence for your claim because it is very difficult to pin down exact figures for the amount of greenhouse gases caused by factory farming. The link you provided states one figure, but I have found various figures that are different. Here are a couple:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/greenhouse/Chapter1.htm
http://yosemite.epa.gov/OAR/globalwarming.nsf/UniqueKeyLookup/RAMR5WNMKC/$File/04agriculture.pdf

While I agree the practice of factory farming is morally abhorrent, It seems that methane makes up a relatively small portion of greenhouse gas emissions. The use of fossil fuels for farming equipment and vehicles is at least as important, and that could be solved by developing alternative sources of energy.

As for the meat industry making poor people poorer. It may be the case that raising livestock is more inefficient than growing crops, but many poor people throughout the world are entirely dependent on their livestock as a means of food and income. They don't have the capacity to grow crops because they don't have the land.

Does eating meat make you ill? I very much doubt that claim. It cannot be contested that humans have evolved as omnivores. One problem vegetarians face is a lack of vitamin B12 in the diet. This is only found in animal sources and vegans in particular need to supplement their diet with this vitamin.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

So, we cannot live healthily on an entirely vegan diet. You stated that meat-eaters often use the argument that we are meant to eat meat. While this is no doubt true, it is not a valid moral argument for people in rich western countries. It is probable however, that meat was a driving factor in the evolution of the human brain. You refute this argument by asking what are humans evolving into? I suspect this was meant as an attack on meat-eaters rather than a well-thought out scientific argument. If not, it displays a poor understanding of evolution.

Finally, I cannot really comment on your father's case or what you were told by his surgeon. Having said that, it seems highly improbable that any food matter could remain in the digestive tract for longer than a few days. To start with, the stomach is highly acidic. It has a PH of between 2 and 3. This is enough to dissolve most things. If we have trouble digesting anything, it is plant matter. This actually turns out to be a good thing though since undigested cellulose aids the digestive process. Nevertheless, most food is digested by the stomach.

I did suspect you would bring up the issue of mucoidial plaque, which is why I asked for evidence. Anecdotal evidence is not really evidence. No scientific studies ever use anecdotal evidence because it is highly unreliable. That issue aside, there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of mucoidial plaques. Mucus is essential for the human body. Also, colonic irrigation is not only unnecessary, but harmful. I wouldn't take the word of anybody involved in this dubious therapy.
"
.........


I’ve given clear reasons why many years ago I stopped eating meat.  It wasn’t this body which knew what to do when it realised where the meat was coming from and how it was produced.  It was so many years ago, it wasn’t this body at all.  In the early days, after saying no to meat, I wavered, coming up against strong opposition, hostility and mistrust, which had the effect of strengthening my resolve not to eat the flesh of animals. So the words I wrote about it in that long post, are grounded in experience - call it a witness statement. 

You say you cannot really comment on my father’s case and then proceed to comment. The information provided by the surgeon who operated on my father included the evidence that his immune system was shot and also that his digestive system wasn’t working correctly. I am not a surgeon - I only recounted what we were told.  It appeared that within his stomach were partially healed ulcers and tumours which had become incorporated into the stomach lining containing undigested meat. I’m not about to provide you with a full pathology of my father’s condition.

“The adverse health impacts of excessive meat-eating stem in large part from what nutritionists call the "great protein fiasco" - a mistaken belief of many Westerners that they need to consume large quantities of protein. This myth, propagated as much as a century ago by health officials and governmental dietary guidelines, has resulted in Americans and other members of industrial societies ingesting twice as much protein as they need. Among the affluent, the protein myth is dangerous because of the saturated fats that accompany concentrated protein in meat and dairy products. Those fats are associated with most of the diseases of affluence that are among the leading causes of death in industrial countries: heart disease, stroke, and breast and colon cancer,” (Lipton 1983; WHO 1990; Kummer 1991; Pimentel et al. 1991; NRC 1989).

“The U.S. National Research Council, the US Surgeon General, the American Heart Association, and the World Health Organization are among the organizations now recommending low-fat diets. From the current US norm of 37 percent of calories from fats--typical for Western nations--they recommend lowering fat consumption to no more than 30 percent of calories,” (NRC 1988; Byrne 1988).

“Recent findings indicate that even that level may be too high. One study of 88,000 American nurses found daily red-meat eaters are two-and-a-half times as likely to develop colon cancer as near-vegetarians. Based on these findings, Walter Willett, director of the study and a researcher at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston, commented, 'the optimum amount of red meat you eat should be zero,'" (Willett et al. 1990; Kolata 1990).

You asked for evidence as to how meat eating is making the rich ill and the poor starve. That evidence is inextricably linked to the evidence that intensive animal agriculture in affluent cultures is a major cause of global warming / climate change.

Beans, nuts, seeds, lentils, and whole grains are packed with protein. These protein sources have some excellent benefits that animal protein does not - they contain plenty of fibre and complex carbohydrates, meat has none.  Neither does plant-based protein contain cholesterol or high amounts of saturated fat.

You suspected I’d bring up the issue of mucoidial plaque which is why you asked for evidence?  I suspect that indicates you weren’t looking for evidence.  As I wrote, this is a controversial area and the subject of fierce debate between alternative, holistic therapies and orthodox medicine, any benefits of colonic therapy, hotly contested by orthodox medicine. It is, however not a new fad.  The purging of the body has been practiced in diverse cultures for hundreds of years.

No matter how rigorous scientific enquiry aims to be, it will always have a subjective element - the subjective views of the researchers are often built in to the scientific method.  Evidence can always be disputed if not refuted. So there are scientists who agree with the findings contained within the Livestock’s Long Shadow report and there are scientists who dispute the findings. There are people today who believe that smoking tobacco doesn’t cause cancer, that asbestos is a safe building material.

I am not drawing any parallels between the eating of meat [raw or cooked] by indigenous peoples, where animals are either hunted in their natural environment or kept in small herds.  The comment about what humans are evolving into is begging the question: evolving into what? - given that humans, in the main, have moved from a nomadic life to a system where tens of thousands of animals are confined in one small area, kept in unnatural conditions, treated as commodities, pumped full of antibiotics and hormones, shipped around like furniture, with no regard for their welfare.

Interestingly, when a carnivore has made a kill, usually the first part of the animal eaten is the stomach containing partially digested plant material.  All felines and canines, for example, relish this and obtain many vitamins and minerals from that part of the herbivore’s body.  Now, most people in the west don’t eat raw meat, let alone the stomach contents of herbivores complete with hair and fur, which assist a carnivore’s digestion.  If a stray hair finds its way inadvertently in to my food and then my mouth, I am immediately aware of something which feels alien.  It is very difficult for a human to swallow a hair let alone huge chunks of fur.

To be truly healthful, a diet must be best not just for individuals in isolation but must allow all six billion people to thrive and achieve a sustainable coexistence with the many other species that form the living earth. From this standpoint, the natural adaptation for most (possibly all) humans in the modern world is a vegetarian or vegan diet. There is nothing natural about the abomination of modern factory farming and its attempt to reduce living, feeling beings to machines. 

With regard to your comments on vitamin B12.  In choosing to use fortified foods or B12 supplements, vegans are taking their B12 from the same source as every other animal on the planet, micro-organisms.

Vegans using adequate amounts of fortified foods or B12 supplements are much less likely to suffer from B12 deficiency than the typical meat eater. The Institute of Medicine, in setting the US recommended intakes for B12 makes this very clear: "Because 10 to 30 percent of older people may be unable to absorb naturally occurring vitamin B12, it is advisable for those older than 50 years to meet their RDA mainly by consuming foods fortified with vitamin B12 or a vitamin B12-containing supplement," [Institute of Medicine].  Vitamin B12 need not be a problem .

Neither do we have to eat fish for our Essential Fatty Acids.  EFAs are to be found in hempseed and flaxseed. 

It may be that in our "original" state, human beings absorbed enough B12 by eating foods grown and harvested in natural environments like forests. However, human beings can't produce their own B12, and in the modern world much of our food is produced in a "hygienic" way involving sprays, washing and so on, which remove the B12 sources from our plant-based foods.

What this means for vegetarians is that a pure vegetarian diet will probably not contain sufficient B12 for our body's needs.

Some plant foods are considered as possible but not reliable sources of B12. These include spirulina, sea vegetables, fermented products like miso and tempeh, and mushrooms. However, it has been shown that they either do not contain enough B12, or do not contain the right kind of B12 to meet the body's requirements.

The safest way to ensure that a vegetarian/vegan vitamin B12 intake is adequate, is to take a vitamin B-12 supplement.  

Vitamin B12 is readily available in a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet through the consumption of eggs and dairy products. However, it is not readily available in vegan diets.  Because Vitamin B12 is not naturally occurring in modern vegan diets, some people argue that this is proof that vegetarian diets are not "natural" - that we were "meant" to eat meat.

B12 is a unique nutrient. It is produced by micro-organisms found in the soil and on the surface of plants. However, it is destroyed by pesticides and washing.

B12 is not produced by the bodies of animals. Herbivores eat raw and unwashed plant foods, such as grasses and fruits, and so ingest the micro-organisms. Carnivores eat herbivores, and receive the B12 "second hand" from them.

In some herbivores, the micro-organisms can get established in the gut of the animal and live there, producing B12 which then supplies some or all of the animal's B12 needs. Thus, some animals can live without a continous external supply, instead meeting their body's needs from "within".

The ‘B12 argument’ is not an argument against the "natural-ness" of vegan diets, because:

Humans, as plant eaters, would naturally ingest B12-producing micro-organisms by eating unwashed and naturally grown fruits and vegetables. However, in the sanitised modern world where vegetables are sprayed, washed, sterilised, transported, stored etc, the poor little mites are all gone by the time it is eaten. Therefore the lack of B12 is not caused by the plant-based diet, but rather, by modern methods of prdoucing food.

It has been found that some herbivores don't need a continuous supply of B12 through their food. Instead, the B12 micro-organisms can become established as live colonies in their guts, where they produce B12 which the animal is able to assimilate to meet its needs. 

It has not been categorically established, but it seems a reasonable hypothesis, that human beings originally also had this capacity. However, through thousands of years of meat-eating, our capacity to meet our B12 needs in this way has atrophied, leaving us with the need for a continuous external supply. 

It seems that when meat putrefies in the long human intestines - our intestines are longer than the intestines of carnivores but slightly shorter than those of herbivores - the acidic environment which results, is fatal for the micro-organisms. Continuous meat eating over time may have prevented the micro-organisms from being able to get established in the human body. It is also hypothesised that due to the long absence of the micro-organisms from our guts, the human body's ability to assimilate B12 from micro-organisms living in its own guts may have changed.

I’m lucky to have access to land where I can produce much of the food I eat myself. What I don’t produce myself I source from organic wholefood growers.


"
.........

"
.........

yesssss

yes it isn't necessary to eat meat unless just snow and no transported food

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91539
horizontal line
 
Back To Topic List   Go to Top of Page

 



SUPPORT ZENGUIDE.COM
If you are planning on purchasing any product from amazon.com, you can help us out by using the search box to the right or by clicking on this link to begin shopping.


Purchase posters, art prints, media (music CD & DVD)

buy this ZEN IRIS
by Pamela Gladding
Puchase this Item
More Art Prints & Media
Zen & Buddhism books
 
 
d
.
i
.
s
.
c
.
u
.
s
.
s
.
i
.
o
.
n
.

.
f
.
o
.
r
.
u
.
m
.
Copyright © 1999 - 2014 zenguide.com - All rights reserved. °