history principles practice stories, books, media discussion forum organizations resources
zenguide.com logo
 
Friday Jul 25 2014 02:17PM ET
º login º register º email º guestbook º printer friendly
grey dot
  continue...

z
.
e
.
n
menu left history menu spacer principles menu spacer practice menu spacer zen media menu spacer discussion forum menu spacer organization directory menu spacer resources  
login
  DISCUSSION FORUM
» topic list   » start a new topic   » my tracked topics   » view topic
grey dot

horizontal line
→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: THE SUN DOES NOT RISE
vertical line Posted on Jan.31.2009 @ 03:38AM EDT by Jareth

I hear a lot of Buddhist say that enlightenment is not gained from intellectual thinking - that it is personally experienced. But we experience the sun rising every morning and we got that one wrong for thousands of years. It was analytical, reasoned, logical thinking that let us know we are all on a spinning ball whizzing around the sun. How can one every be sure of one's experiences when knowledge is more illuminating and - what's more important - VERIFIABLE?

Jareth 


Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email Jareth
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from IZIZIZ
Jan.31.2009
05:36AM EDT 
vertical line

Why dont you watch the sun rise and then have the knowledge of what you experience when you do so, without thought?

Or is your being saturated with thought, and as a result experience becomes neglected and made abstract?

See if you can experience the sunrise.

The hardest thing about doing anything is thinking about it. So ask yourself truthfully. What are you doing?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91574
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from -----0
Jan.31.2009
12:02PM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "I hear a lot of Buddhist say that enlightenment is not gained from intellectual thinking - that it is personally experienced. But we experience the sun rising every morning and we got that one wrong for thousands of years. It was analytical, reasoned, logical thinking that let us know we are all on a spinning ball whizzing around the sun. How can one every be sure of one's experiences when knowledge is more illuminating and - what's more important - VERIFIABLE?"

When I say that the sun is rising I mean that in a while it will be shining from  a higher position in reference to horizon. That is what I see and as far as I know, the science would agree. You can also verify it by measuring the angle.

However, my normal experience of a sunrise is not in terms of measurements. Even a slight thought at that moment can cause my genuine experience of the sunrise to collapse.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91584
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Jan.31.2009
01:21PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line

Question: How do you know that one's own mind is inherently pure?
Answer: The treatise on the [Sutra of the] ten stages says: There is an
adamantine Buddha-nature within the bodies of sentient beings. Like
the sun, it is essentially bright, perfect, and complete. Although vast
and limitless, it is merely covered by the layered clouds of the five
skandhas. Like a lamp inside a jar, its light cannot shine. Further to
use the bright sun as a metaphor, it is as id the clouds and mists of the
world were to arise together in [all] the eight directions, so that the world
would become dark. How could the sun ever be extinguished?

Question: [Without the sun being extinguished,] why would there be no light?
Answer: The sun's light is not destroyed, but merely deflected by the clouds
and mists. The pure mind possessed by all sentient beings is also like this, in
simply being covered by the layered clouds of discriminating thinking, false
thoughts, ascriptive views. If one can just distinctly  maintain the [awareness
of] the mind and not produce false thoughts, then the Dharma sun of nirvana will
be naturally manifested. Therefore, it is known that one's own mind is inherently
pure.

http://www.zenguide.com/zenmedia/index.cfm?id=141

According to this, learning to cultivate the mind is of importance.
Spend some time in the sun yourself. Experience its full visionary
spectrum of light and color. Spend some time maintaining this
experience, try to pull insight from it.    Explore!

sit_teh

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91587
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from 9999999
Jan.31.2009
01:42PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line Quote: "

However, my normal experience of a sunrise is not in terms of measurements. Even a slight thought at that moment can cause my genuine experience of the sunrise to collapse.

"
.........

Does it really collapse? How does it cause it to collapse?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91588
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from -----0
Jan.31.2009
03:24PM EDT 
vertical line thoughts take over
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91591
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Jan.31.2009
03:26PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Life always opens for the first time, every day. : )
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91592
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from 9999999
Jan.31.2009
03:45PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line thought can't see
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91593
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Jan.31.2009
04:33PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9JB2ETgatI

A favorite

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91594
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Jan.31.2009
04:33PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9JB2ETgatI

A favorite

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91595
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from -----0
Jan.31.2009
04:47PM EDT 
vertical line Every moment is unique, how can you VERIFY it?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91596
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Jan.31.2009
06:01PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line

"When you do something, you should burn yourself completely, like a good bonfire, leaving no trace of yourself."

the moment the fire is out...

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91601
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from IZIZIZ
Jan.31.2009
07:50PM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Every moment is unique, how can you VERIFY it?"
.........

Verify what? Every moment. That every moment is unique. That there was a moment.

You can testify yourself to that and thus verify.

There is a world of difference between the varification of a moment and the confirmation of thoughts.

Where is your concentration????

Its like a finger pointing at the moon. Dont concentrate on the finger for you will miss the spectacle.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91603
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Jareth
Feb.01.2009
01:58AM EDT 
Email Jareth
vertical line Quote: "

Why dont you watch the sun rise and then have the knowledge of what you experience when you do so, without thought?

Or is your being saturated with thought, and as a result experience becomes neglected and made abstract?

See if you can experience the sunrise.

The hardest thing about doing anything is thinking about it. So ask yourself truthfully. What are you doing?

"
.........

"
.........

The response of "Smell the roses." is not the only answer to the problem of the subjectivity of experiences. I was hoping for something newer which might address the problem that it is Scientific Analysis which finds the truth. Truth being so important that even if a million people tell me that they have seen the sun rise - this is still only their viewpoint - meaning opinion - and does not make it verifiably true.

Justin

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91610
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Jareth
Feb.01.2009
05:03AM EDT 
Email Jareth
vertical line Quote: "

When I say that the sun is rising I mean that in a while it will be shining from  a higher position in reference to horizon. That is what I see and as far as I know, the science would agree. You can also verify it by measuring the angle.

However, my normal experience of a sunrise is not in terms of measurements. Even a slight thought at that moment can cause my genuine experience of the sunrise to collapse.

"
.........

"
.........

But the truth is still that the sun is not actually "higher". Your measurements are relative to the horizon - which you admit you are using as a reference point. But the horizon is only in place in reference to YOU. As you know - there is no actual horizon (without a reference to you). I hesitate to mention it - but I hope your all with me on the idea of us actually being on a big ball revolving around a bigger, hotter ball.

Now all this also applies to your inner experiences as well as your outer ones. What you are experiencing are illusions as long as they are in reference to you. It' seems a lot like solipsism. Does Buddhism put the observer at the center of reality? I thought we had got past the idea that the universe revolves around us! Do Buddhist just ignore all the sciences that define objectivity, subjectivity and illusions?

Justin

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91611
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from -----0
Feb.01.2009
05:08AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Every moment is unique, how can you VERIFY it?"
.........

Verify what? Every moment. That every moment is unique. That there was a moment.

You can testify yourself to that and thus verify.

There is a world of difference between the varification of a moment and the confirmation of thoughts.

Where is your concentration????

Its like a finger pointing at the moon. Dont concentrate on the finger for you will miss the spectacle.

"
.........

"
.........

I was refering to the original poster

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91612
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from -----0
Feb.01.2009
05:20AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: " I hesitate to mention it - but I hope your all with me on the idea of us actually being on a big ball revolving around a bigger, hotter ball."

........

This is just your simplistic understanding of science theories. If you are really interested in scientific approach, you can try to familiarize yourself with the theory of relativity, the next step could then be quantum theory. You will see that the understanding of the World being based on balls revolving around balls is as good as the theory of the World being a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise, which in turn is supported by another one, and so on turtles all the way down.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91613
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from boopoom
Feb.01.2009
08:10AM EDT 
Email boopoom
vertical line

I agree the sun does not rise...while we are spinning , we  human being just mark on somthing so we can be precise...so that some day you and i could have some dinner together otherwise i wil be sitting alone  waiting for you forever...darling

" and maybe that how the TIME begin "

love,boopoom : )

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91614
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from CrazyHorse
Feb.01.2009
11:52AM EDT 
vertical line Analyzing  this  does  not  seem  appropriate.

The  sun does  what  it  does,  we  see  it.

Isn't  that  enough?

The  frog  jumps into  the  pond.  The  splash  is  implied. 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91622
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Feb.01.2009
11:55AM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line

Buddhists believe that there is no gap between day and night.

I have experienced this "no gap" to a certain level, degree and intensity, i think we all have.

My experience was a near complete stillness and my awareness somehow separated from my being as i was leaving my house for a walk.. Everything was in motion but my mind seemed to stop for a rest to allow nature/reality to manifest up to a certain potential of my individual capabilities. It was a good experience but i couldn't complete the walk from there and turned back home.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91624
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Feb.01.2009
12:41PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Zen requires no beliefs. Even demands it, with a stick !!!! 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91630
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from 9999999
Feb.01.2009
12:47PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

When I say that the sun is rising I mean that in a while it will be shining from  a higher position in reference to horizon. That is what I see and as far as I know, the science would agree. You can also verify it by measuring the angle.

However, my normal experience of a sunrise is not in terms of measurements. Even a slight thought at that moment can cause my genuine experience of the sunrise to collapse.

"
.........

"
.........

But the truth is still that the sun is not actually "higher". Your measurements are relative to the horizon - which you admit you are using as a reference point. But the horizon is only in place in reference to YOU. As you know - there is no actual horizon (without a reference to you). I hesitate to mention it - but I hope your all with me on the idea of us actually being on a big ball revolving around a bigger, hotter ball.

Now all this also applies to your inner experiences as well as your outer ones. What you are experiencing are illusions as long as they are in reference to you. It' seems a lot like solipsism. Does Buddhism put the observer at the center of reality? I thought we had got past the idea that the universe revolves around us! Do Buddhist just ignore all the sciences that define objectivity, subjectivity and illusions?

Justin

"
.........

If Truth is what you want then try looking in the opposite direction..

You know you exist..but how?  By what do you know you exist?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91632
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from CrazyHorse
Feb.01.2009
01:08PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "A  walk  with  the  dog  at  3 A.m.  under  the  moonlight and   the  glow  on  fields  of  buckwheat  does  the  same  kind  of  thing."


Buddhists believe that there is no gap between day and night.

I have experienced this "no gap" to a certain level, degree and intensity, i think we all have.

My experience was a near complete stillness and my awareness somehow separated from my being as i was leaving my house for a walk.. Everything was in motion but my mind seemed to stop for a rest to allow nature/reality to manifest up to a certain potential of my individual capabilities. It was a good experience but i couldn't complete the walk from there and turned back home.

"
.........
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91633
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Feb.01.2009
08:55PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line counld complete the walk from where ?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91645
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Mslapik
Feb.01.2009
09:03PM EDT 
Email Mslapik
vertical line

There is a key difference between the sun and entities entirely within one's own mind, as the sun cannot be known for what it is and can only be observed through the senses, while entities like desire, happiness, and the self can be understood completely through introspection. The problem that arises when we rely too much one logic is that we mistake symbols for the actual entities, even if they correspond to nothing at all, so we may pursue things that have no real value or substance. This is the case with the conceptual self, which creates all conflict and suffering, so when people say that one must not rely on concept, they encourage you to look within your  mind and realize that there is no conceptual self, no duality between good and bad, and thus become awakened. Just as some questioned that the earth was flat and went out into the world to prove their suspicion, so you must question the notion of a self that desires and look within your own mind.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91646
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Feb.01.2009
09:13PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line

about 50 yards from my house...it was intense so i was in awe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91649
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Feb.01.2009
09:48PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

thanks

what was in awe ?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91652
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Mslapik
Feb.01.2009
10:10PM EDT 
Email Mslapik
vertical line Who is asking?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91654
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Feb.02.2009
12:56AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

Quote: "Who is asking? "
.........

"whos is asking?" is question barking up wrong tree

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91658
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from zen-zen
Feb.02.2009
04:32AM EDT 
vertical line Justin: "The response of "Smell the roses." is not the only answer to the problem of the subjectivity of experiences. I was hoping for something newer which might address the problem that it is Scientific Analysis which finds the truth. Truth being so important that even if a million people tell me that they have seen the sun rise - this is still only their viewpoint - meaning opinion - and does not make it verifiably true."

Surely any sane man would not throw away their verifiable scientific explanation about sun, moon, earth and rest of the universe. We need that explanation like we need warmth, shelter and food to live.

If it is the scientific approach that you are looking for but yet not scientific method itself ... you might be looking for philosophy. It is said to be the science of sciences because it sets the limits for what can be known and the rules of logical thought.

I understand that you would like to find something concrete. But you do understand that your inquiry in this question is as objective as any observation of a single individual? So in fact - that which sets the question will eventually remain to be in the same objective setup as initially. No matter what conclusions you make.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91670
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from -----0
Feb.02.2009
11:14AM EDT 
vertical line

Science doesn't know even why a stone falls to the ground.

They believe how there should certainly be a reason for that, so they call this reason GRAVITY, for all practical purposes, without knowing it any better. Then they would go on saying that the Earth revolves around the Sun because of this gravity and are most quite happy with it. Einstein then invented how it actually doesn't revolve, but instead travels straight the shortest path through the four dimensional space-time, that itself is curved. I hope he has managed to spend some time experiencing the sunrise simply as it is.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91674
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Feb.02.2009
12:04PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Quote: "

thanks

what was in awe ?

"
.........

"
.........

Don't know but that moment from that experience was too great and beyond my appreciation so left it alone

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91675
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Jareth
Feb.04.2009
04:32AM EDT 
Email Jareth
vertical line

Quote: "Justin: "The response of "Smell the roses." is not the only answer to the problem of the subjectivity of experiences. I was hoping for something newer which might address the problem that it is Scientific Analysis which finds the truth. Truth being so important that even if a million people tell me that they have seen the sun rise - this is still only their viewpoint - meaning opinion - and does not make it verifiably true." 

... you might be looking for philosophy. It is said to be the science of sciences because it sets the limits for what can be known and the rules of logical thought.

I understand that you would like to find something concrete. But you do understand that your inquiry in this question is as objective as any observation of a single individual? So in fact - that which sets the question will eventually remain to be in the same objective setup as initially. No matter what conclusions you make.
"
.........

I like your idea that I should persue philosophy. It's just that I thought tyhat Buddhism had a philosophical foundation - silly me. I can tell from the responses that most of the people here are just talking to themselves... Really! I have been to other Buddhist sites but their is a bunch of people on this site with the WEIRDEST outlooks - Considering I already understand the finger and the moon and waking up to reality etc. - most of the answers don't come very close to the question I'm asking. But yours does. Thanks again.

Justin

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91722
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from -----0
Feb.04.2009
10:55AM EDT 
vertical line this here is a hard core zen and not any sutra library club :)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91723
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Feb.04.2009
11:14AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line I just wanted to thank everyone for responding.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91726
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Feb.04.2009
04:21PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line You are always welcome, in Nirvana. : )
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91736
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from -----0
Feb.05.2009
10:07AM EDT 
vertical line

He failed to find what he was not looking for. Philosophy is a long path. If you go far enough, you may eventually come to Zen. But there is also a shortcut.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91771
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Feb.05.2009
11:26AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line pee outside
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91774
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from 9999999
Feb.05.2009
02:02PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Justin: "The response of "Smell the roses." is not the only answer to the problem of the subjectivity of experiences. I was hoping for something newer which might address the problem that it is Scientific Analysis which finds the truth. Truth being so important that even if a million people tell me that they have seen the sun rise - this is still only their viewpoint - meaning opinion - and does not make it verifiably true." 

... you might be looking for philosophy. It is said to be the science of sciences because it sets the limits for what can be known and the rules of logical thought.

I understand that you would like to find something concrete. But you do understand that your inquiry in this question is as objective as any observation of a single individual? So in fact - that which sets the question will eventually remain to be in the same objective setup as initially. No matter what conclusions you make.
"
.........

I like your idea that I should persue philosophy. It's just that I thought tyhat Buddhism had a philosophical foundation - silly me. I can tell from the responses that most of the people here are just talking to themselves... Really! I have been to other Buddhist sites but their is a bunch of people on this site with the WEIRDEST outlooks - Considering I already understand the finger and the moon and waking up to reality etc. - most of the answers don't come very close to the question I'm asking. But yours does. Thanks again.

Justin

"
.........

What are you asking again? 

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91782
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from CrazyHorse
Feb.05.2009
02:29PM EDT 
vertical line The  link  is  to a 'sunrise' on  the  hill  I  live  on.  I took the  photograph a  few  mornings  ago.  It  is  titled 'Geese'.  When I  saw  how  it  came out I thought  how  'Zen-like' it  was


http://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u241/Hermenutic/?action=view&current=GeeseA012.jpg. 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91784
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from CrazyHorse
Feb.05.2009
02:31PM EDT 
vertical line Try this  link.  http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u241/Hermenutic/GeeseA012.jpg
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91785
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Feb.05.2009
11:08PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

Quote: "Try this  link.  http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u241/Hermenutic/GeeseA012.jpg "
.........

:D

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91806
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Jareth
Feb.06.2009
01:18AM EDT 
Email Jareth
vertical line

Quote: "this here is a hard core zen and not any sutra library club :)"
.........

Would but THAT were true.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91810
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Jareth
Feb.06.2009
01:24AM EDT 
Email Jareth
vertical line Quote: "

He failed to find what he was not looking for. Philosophy is a long path. If you go far enough, you may eventually come to Zen. But there is also a shortcut.

"
........

"
........

I should be surprised if not everyone on this board knows what you mean - so do you say it because you are still learning it yourself? Sounds like you are enjoying the long cut.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91811
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Jareth
Feb.06.2009
01:29AM EDT 
Email Jareth
vertical line

Quote: "The  link  is  to a 'sunrise' on  the  hill  I  live  on.  I took the  photograph a  few  mornings  ago.  It  is  titled 'Geese'.  When I  saw  how  it  came out I thought  how  'Zen-like' it  was


http://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u241/Hermenutic/?action=view&current=GeeseA012.jpg. 
"
........

By "Zen-like" you appear to mean STARK..

Is STARKNESS the essense of Zen?

 

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91812
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from zen-zen
Feb.06.2009
02:03AM EDT 
vertical line Justin: "I like your idea that I should persue philosophy. It's just that I thought tyhat Buddhism had a philosophical foundation - silly me. I can tell from the responses that most of the people here are just talking to themselves... Really! I have been to other Buddhist sites but their is a bunch of people on this site with the WEIRDEST outlooks - Considering I already understand the finger and the moon and waking up to reality etc. - most of the answers don't come very close to the question I'm asking. But yours does. Thanks again."

Hi again,
Yes, I used to study a bit of philosophy too. Just a bit. It's just that the approach in eastern philosophies is based on experience and ultimately the objective experiencer finding emptiness within as the basis of all. In west, the foundation is in thought almost completely, for example Kant's categories and Wittgenstein's hierarchies.

Basically, if you wish to have an explanation to something then look in west, but if you want to be free from suffering in your life look in east :D

Both ways may end up with the same result. ;)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91814
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from CrazyHorse
Feb.06.2009
12:16PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "The  link  is  to a 'sunrise' on  the  hill  I  live  on.  I took the  photograph a  few  mornings  ago.  It  is  titled 'Geese'.  When I  saw  how  it  came out I thought  how  'Zen-like' it  was


http://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u241/Hermenutic/?action=view&current=GeeseA012.jpg. 
"
........

By "Zen-like" you appear to mean STARK..

Is STARKNESS the essense of Zen?

 

"
.........

Basically when  I  saw  it I was  reminded of  classical  Chinese  paintings.  I  didn't  know  the  geese were there when I  took  the  picture.

I  like it  anyhow.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91841
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from -----0
Feb.06.2009
01:04PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

He failed to find what he was not looking for. Philosophy is a long path. If you go far enough, you may eventually come to Zen. But there is also a shortcut.
........


........

I should be surprised if not everyone on this board knows what you mean - so do you say it because you are still learning it yourself? Sounds like you are enjoying the long cut.

"
.........

"
.........

I am sorry, I was just discussing the topic you started. Was not intending to be annoying. Peace!

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91842
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Jareth
Feb.07.2009
09:35PM EDT 
Email Jareth
vertical line

Quote: 
Basically, if you wish to have an explanation to something then look in west, but if you want to be free from suffering in your life look in east :D

Both ways may end up with the same result. ;)
"
.........

Your conclusions are, again, unverifiable. Or rather - a bit worse than that - the evidence points to the west as having made much more headway in reducing suffering. You may not agree that cars and trains and planes are a good idea - but surely you must agree that doctors,dentists, psychiatrists firemen, free education, social services, free health services are good ideas and have been promoted greatly by the west.

Both may have the same result but the west is winning.

Frankly, if "Zen" was going to save the people - surely it has had long enough by now.

Please don't go into unverifiable conclusions again. If  Buddhism can't give a better case for itself than this then it is not THE WAY!

Those who know are, apparently, not going to tell us. Maybe that's because they know A WHOLE LOT OF nothing.

Justin

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91862
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Jareth
Feb.07.2009
09:43PM EDT 
Email Jareth
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

He failed to find what he was not looking for. Philosophy is a long path. If you go far enough, you may eventually come to Zen. But there is also a shortcut.
........


........

I should be surprised if not everyone on this board knows what you mean - so do you say it because you are still learning it yourself? Sounds like you are enjoying the long cut.

"
.........

"
.........

I am sorry, I was just discussing the topic you started. Was not intending to be annoying. Peace!

"
.........

"
.........

You really shiould ask me if I am annoyed before you apologise. I know I am provocative - but I'm not annoyed. But I don't see how your words answer my topic in any way. You have strayed into the classic ephemeral way of "Zen-Speak" I know all about that - Your wrods mean NOTHING (still not angry)

Justin

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91863
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Feb.08.2009
12:36AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

Quote: "VERIFIABLE
............

when nolonger seems there's an imagined entity, there's not seeking verifying :)

 

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91864
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from -----0
Feb.08.2009
01:24AM EDT 
vertical line

OK. The question was: How can one be sure of one's experiences when knowledge is more illuminating and - what's more important - VERIFIABLE?

You are possibly implying that there is a scientifically verifiable absolute truth accessible through scientific methods and that such knowledge is more reliable than personal experience.

As long as you are expecting a scientific answer to a such question, all experience-based insight-answers will not make much sense to you. Now, if you sincerely want to see the meaning of such answers, you have to leave behind you scientific way of looking at the world, at least for a while.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91867
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from 9999999
Feb.08.2009
02:25AM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line Throughout my waking life everything changes except for the primary illusion.

Colors, sounds, tastes, sensations, and thoughts are always changing. The sense that "I am/I exist" remains constant. "I am/I exist" is the witness. It likes "to be."

When I go to sleep I forget about everything that happens during waking life. Whatever I forget is not what I really am.

When the sense "I am/I exist" disappears, still I am. Whether or not the sense "I am/I exist" is there or not is not my concern.

It is as if I am driving a car on the highway and the witness is an advertisement on a billboard. I can only view it as long as it's in front of me--I cannot view it forever, as I must continue on my way.

Something is-and-remains aware while the sense "I am" appears.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91868
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from 9999999
Feb.08.2009
02:26AM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line being aware isn't an experience
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91869
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from 9999999
Feb.08.2009
02:28AM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line being aware isn't in the realm of knowledge either. it is not the known, it is the knowing
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91870
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Jareth
Feb.08.2009
03:09AM EDT 
Email Jareth
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "VERIFIABLE
............

when nolonger seems there's an imagined entity, there's not seeking verifying :)

"
.........

"
.........

These "Zen-statements" are incomprehensible - not only to outsiders, but also to insiders. 

Those who know, know nothing.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91874
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Jareth
Feb.08.2009
03:20AM EDT 
Email Jareth
vertical line Quote: "

OK. The question was: How can one be sure of one's experiences when knowledge is more illuminating and - what's more important - VERIFIABLE?

You are possibly implying that there is a scientifically verifiable absolute truth accessible through scientific methods and that such knowledge is more reliable than personal experience.

As long as you are expecting a scientific answer to a such question, all experience-based insight-answers will not make much sense to you. Now, if you sincerely want to see the meaning of such answers, you have to leave behind you scientific way of looking at the world, at least for a while.

"

"

And what if I'm not implying that there is a scientifically verifiable absolute truth? ( I think we already know there isn't). What if my question was about experiences? What if I asked if all experiences are relative and subjective and that we cannot ever know anything for sure from experiences and that the Zen path of personally experiencing something, or nothing, or "enlightenment", or "reality" - is a dead end.  What if Zen is nothing more than arrogance with pretentions of humility? Surely the Zen path has had enough time to prove itself effective - but it is not a growing religion, just an interesting footnote to philosophy. It has failed in it's mission to save the world.

Justin

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91878
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from shayne
Feb.08.2009
03:21AM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: 
Basically, if you wish to have an explanation to something then look in west, but if you want to be free from suffering in your life look in east :D

Both ways may end up with the same result. ;)
"
.........

Your conclusions are, again, unverifiable. Or rather - a bit worse than that - the evidence points to the west as having made much more headway in reducing suffering. You may not agree that cars and trains and planes are a good idea - but surely you must agree that doctors,dentists, psychiatrists firemen, free education, social services, free health services are good ideas and have been promoted greatly by the west.

Both may have the same result but the west is winning.

Frankly, if "Zen" was going to save the people - surely it has had long enough by now.

Please don't go into unverifiable conclusions again. If  Buddhism can't give a better case for itself than this then it is not THE WAY!

Those who know are, apparently, not going to tell us. Maybe that's because they know A WHOLE LOT OF nothing.

Justin

"
.........

"
.........

some zen just stinks.

lots of " zenists " i consider half nuts.

maybe best to drop ALL religions.

but then again thats what a good zen man does.

hahaha.

actually to sit down and meditate is to save yourself.

the only way.

the true way.

and if you refuse to sit.

well then NOTHING can help ya.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91879
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Jareth
Feb.08.2009
03:27AM EDT 
Email Jareth
vertical line

Quote: "Throughout my waking life everything changes except for the primary illusion.

Colors, sounds, tastes, sensations, and thoughts are always changing. The sense that "I am/I exist" remains constant. "I am/I exist" is the witness. It likes "to be."

When I go to sleep I forget about everything that happens during waking life. Whatever I forget is not what I really am.

When the sense "I am/I exist" disappears, still I am. Whether or not the sense "I am/I exist" is there or not is not my concern.

It is as if I am driving a car on the highway and the witness is an advertisement on a billboard. I can only view it as long as it's in front of me--I cannot view it forever, as I must continue on my way.

Something is-and-remains aware while the sense "I am" appears.
"
.........

The "something" that remains when you are unaware are the autonomic habits of a robotic mind. Not -as your posts suggests but is to "fluffy" to mention - some kind of  higher mind or Buddha nature or something.  Where do you find these arrogant ideas that you spout as if you have found the ultimate truth - and yet cannot state anything clearly ( still not angry)?

Jareth

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91880
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from shayne
Feb.08.2009
03:32AM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Throughout my waking life everything changes except for the primary illusion.

Colors, sounds, tastes, sensations, and thoughts are always changing. The sense that "I am/I exist" remains constant. "I am/I exist" is the witness. It likes "to be."

When I go to sleep I forget about everything that happens during waking life. Whatever I forget is not what I really am.

When the sense "I am/I exist" disappears, still I am. Whether or not the sense "I am/I exist" is there or not is not my concern.

It is as if I am driving a car on the highway and the witness is an advertisement on a billboard. I can only view it as long as it's in front of me--I cannot view it forever, as I must continue on my way.

Something is-and-remains aware while the sense "I am" appears.
"
.........

The "something" that remains when you are unaware are the autonomic habits of a robotic mind. Not -as your posts suggests but is to "fluffy" to mention - some kind of  higher mind or Buddha nature or something.  Where do you find these arrogant ideas that you spout as if you have found the ultimate truth - and yet cannot state anything clearly ( still not angry)?

Jareth

"
.........

"
.........

oh hahaha.

everything zen everything zen i dont think so.

bush song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE7SgQHlGCE

buddha mind seeks buddha mind.

their is nothing higher.

that which seeks the buddha mind is it.

so lets just forget it and pay attention.

haha.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91882
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Feb.08.2009
03:49AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "VERIFIABLE
............

when nolonger seems there's an imagined entity, there's not seeking verifying :)

"
.........

"
.........

These "Zen-statements" are incomprehensible - not only to outsiders, but also to insiders. 

Those who know, know nothing.

"
.........

"
.........

that wasn't a "zen statement", nor was it known

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91885
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from 9999999
Feb.08.2009
04:31AM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Throughout my waking life everything changes except for the primary illusion.

Colors, sounds, tastes, sensations, and thoughts are always changing. The sense that "I am/I exist" remains constant. "I am/I exist" is the witness. It likes "to be."

When I go to sleep I forget about everything that happens during waking life. Whatever I forget is not what I really am.

When the sense "I am/I exist" disappears, still I am. Whether or not the sense "I am/I exist" is there or not is not my concern.

It is as if I am driving a car on the highway and the witness is an advertisement on a billboard. I can only view it as long as it's in front of me--I cannot view it forever, as I must continue on my way.

Something is-and-remains aware while the sense "I am" appears.
"
.........

The "something" that remains when you are unaware are the autonomic habits of a robotic mind. Not -as your posts suggests but is to "fluffy" to mention - some kind of  higher mind or Buddha nature or something.  Where do you find these arrogant ideas that you spout as if you have found the ultimate truth - and yet cannot state anything clearly ( still not angry)?

Jareth

"
.........

Did I say anything about what that something was, especially not higher mind or buddha nature or tripe like that.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91914
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from 9999999
Feb.08.2009
04:33AM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

OK. The question was: How can one be sure of one's experiences when knowledge is more illuminating and - what's more important - VERIFIABLE?

You are possibly implying that there is a scientifically verifiable absolute truth accessible through scientific methods and that such knowledge is more reliable than personal experience.

As long as you are expecting a scientific answer to a such question, all experience-based insight-answers will not make much sense to you. Now, if you sincerely want to see the meaning of such answers, you have to leave behind you scientific way of looking at the world, at least for a while.

"

"

And what if I'm not implying that there is a scientifically verifiable absolute truth? ( I think we already know there isn't). What if my question was about experiences? What if I asked if all experiences are relative and subjective and that we cannot ever know anything for sure from experiences and that the Zen path of personally experiencing something, or nothing, or "enlightenment", or "reality" - is a dead end.  What if Zen is nothing more than arrogance with pretentions of humility? Surely the Zen path has had enough time to prove itself effective - but it is not a growing religion, just an interesting footnote to philosophy. It has failed in it's mission to save the world.

Justin

"
.........

Does the world need saving?  Where have you seen anything in zen about saving the world?

lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91915
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from shayne
Feb.08.2009
04:35AM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line

save yourself.

no one else can do it.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91917
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from 9999999
Feb.08.2009
04:48AM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

OK. The question was: How can one be sure of one's experiences when knowledge is more illuminating and - what's more important - VERIFIABLE?

You are possibly implying that there is a scientifically verifiable absolute truth accessible through scientific methods and that such knowledge is more reliable than personal experience.

As long as you are expecting a scientific answer to a such question, all experience-based insight-answers will not make much sense to you. Now, if you sincerely want to see the meaning of such answers, you have to leave behind you scientific way of looking at the world, at least for a while.

"

"

And what if I'm not implying that there is a scientifically verifiable absolute truth? ( I think we already know there isn't). What if my question was about experiences? What if I asked if all experiences are relative and subjective and that we cannot ever know anything for sure from experiences and that the Zen path of personally experiencing something, or nothing, or "enlightenment", or "reality" - is a dead end.  What if Zen is nothing more than arrogance with pretentions of humility? Surely the Zen path has had enough time to prove itself effective - but it is not a growing religion, just an interesting footnote to philosophy. It has failed in it's mission to save the world.

Justin

"
.........

Oops.  I did not see that.  Blinded by my own greed--again!  Sounds right to me!  Nice work. 


Now what?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91928
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Feb.08.2009
05:08AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

Quote:  Surely the Zen path has had enough time to prove itself effective - but it is not a growing religion, just an interesting footnote to philosophy. It has failed in it's mission to save the world."

............

are saying zen is responsible ?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91934
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from -----0
Feb.08.2009
05:57AM EDT 
vertical line

Jareth,

experience IS reality. Even if you mistakenly see a snake where there actually was only a piece of rope, this imagination is also real in itself. It makes you scared and you may even get a heart attack. Maybe you can't be sure what was it that made you scared, but you can be sure that you were scared.

When you want the experience to be verifiable, you are implying that the reality is split in two, outside world - inside world and that one of them is valid only if it can be verifiable by the other one. This split-reality approach or dualism is your genuine experience and is valid as such, but I also see the unity of both.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91938
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from IZIZIZ
Feb.08.2009
07:31AM EDT 
vertical line

Religion has been and is a catastrophe and that is the truth.

Yet like moths to the light people attach to religion.

This is due to the detachment that the self has from reality and the fear of death.

The day that Zen becomes a religion is the day that it comes to be catastrophic.

Get your head around this paradox, this one hand clapping.

You need to give up religion to do so, if not you have no hope.

You are hopeless. Religion is a catastrophe.

Zen IS Zen.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91940
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Mslapik
Feb.08.2009
01:05PM EDT 
Email Mslapik
vertical line Jareth, you said  "It's just that I thought that Buddhism had a philosophical foundation,"which highlights your misconception with respect to zen. Zen is not concerned with intellectual speculation (read my other comment) but rather introspection and observation of one's own mind. Truths of suffering, self, and compassion are not to be found in the external world (just as scientific truths are not to be found purely within one's mind), nor can they be found through abstraction. The problem with abstration is it uses symbols for objects, such as the self, good and bad, and thus fails to recognize their actual counterparts and their true qualities. It is only through finding these entities and observing their relationships to eachother does the truth of Zen arise. Thus, the foundation of Zen is not concept, but rather concrete experience.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91966
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Mslapik
Feb.08.2009
01:06PM EDT 
Email Mslapik
vertical line There's such thing as a misCONCEPTion, but not such thing as a misEXPERIENCE.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91967
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Feb.08.2009
03:30PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line What thoughts are in the sun?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91968
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Feb.09.2009
12:02AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

Quote: "What thoughts are in the sun? "
.........

don't know, but going to check the potatoes to see if are cooked

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91995
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Feb.09.2009
12:10AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line not cooked yet
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 91996
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Jareth
Feb.10.2009
04:01AM EDT 
Email Jareth
vertical line

Quote: "Jareth, you said  "It's just that I thought that Buddhism had a philosophical foundation,"which highlights your misconception with respect to zen. Zen is not concerned with intellectual speculation (read my other comment) but rather introspection and observation of one's own mind. Truths of suffering, self, and compassion are not to be found in the external world (just as scientific truths are not to be found purely within one's mind), nor can they be found through abstraction. The problem with abstration is it uses symbols for objects, such as the self, good and bad, and thus fails to recognize their actual counterparts and their true qualities. It is only through finding these entities and observing their relationships to eachother does the truth of Zen arise. Thus, the foundation of Zen is not concept, but rather concrete experience.
"
.........

Except - We still have no proof that experience is concrete ( objective).

And as for your " Truths of suffering, self, and compassion are not to be found in the external world "  - Unbelievable.. Suffering is not internal. Compassion is not for oneself. These things can ONLY be properly applied to the external world  where other people need our compassion and charity. The " Truths" of couse are merely internal, intellectual concepts with emotions attached.

But - thanks for a posting I can understand. Nine out of ten people here are stuck in the old zen-speak mindset. Poor buggers. They persistently think we don't "get it!"!

Thanks again.

Justin

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92036
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Jareth
Feb.10.2009
04:05AM EDT 
Email Jareth
vertical line

Quote: "There's such thing as a misCONCEPTion, but not such thing as a misEXPERIENCE. "
.........

Stating things categorically with zero proof  is arrogance.. Therefore - you are wrong in your presumtions. Is misexperience even a word?

Justin

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92037
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Jareth
Feb.10.2009
04:09AM EDT 
Email Jareth
vertical line Quote: "

Jareth,

experience IS reality. Even if you mistakenly see a snake where there actually was only a piece of rope, this imagination is also real in itself. It makes you scared and you may even get a heart attack. Maybe you can't be sure what was it that made you scared, but you can be sure that you were scared.

When you want the experience to be verifiable, you are implying that the reality is split in two, outside world - inside world and that one of them is valid only if it can be verifiable by the other one. This split-reality approach or dualism is your genuine experience and is valid as such, but I also see the unity of both.

"
........

"
........

So do I and I see the difference between an actual snake and a real snake - but one is a delusion...

Justin

.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92038
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from 9999999
Feb.10.2009
04:23AM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line Careful Jareth--we all have infinite ammo in this pissing contest!~
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92040
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from kelvintan
Feb.10.2009
11:55AM EDT 
Email kelvintan
vertical line

In the untruth they imagine the truth

in the truth they see the untruth

wrong thoughts never realise the truth

What is truth they regard as truth,

what is untruth they regard as untruth

right thoughts realise the truth

It is difficult to realise the truth if

Self ego is looking for the Truth

No Truth

With Metta To All

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92046
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from IZIZIZ
Feb.10.2009
03:50PM EDT 
vertical line

I hear a lot of Buddhist say that enlightenment is not gained from intellectual thinking - that it is personally experienced. But we experience the sun rising every morning and we got that one wrong for thousands of years. It was analytical, reasoned, logical thinking that let us know we are all on a spinning ball whizzing around the sun. How can one every be sure of one's experiences when knowledge is more illuminating and - what's more important - VERIFIABLE?

This is a question that one may ask. This is a question that one may ask when one is looking for truth, wants others to help find truth, or is testing others as to their own finding of truth.

This all amounts to nothing when The awakening of Zen occurrs.

We now have the truth looking for truth.

We now have the truth doubting ways to find truth.

We now have truth doubting that truth can find truth.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92064
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Feb.10.2009
07:45PM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line Quote: "

In the untruth they imagine the truth

in the truth they see the untruth

wrong thoughts never realise the truth

What is truth they regard as truth,

what is untruth they regard as untruth

right thoughts realise the truth

It is difficult to realise the truth if

Self ego is looking for the Truth

No Truth

With Metta To All

"
.........

"
.........

what "right thoughts" ?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92080
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from kelvintan
Feb.10.2009
09:11PM EDT 
Email kelvintan
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

In the untruth they imagine the truth

in the truth they see the untruth

wrong thoughts never realise the truth

What is truth they regard as truth,

what is untruth they regard as untruth

right thoughts realise the truth

It is difficult to realise the truth if

Self ego is looking for the Truth

No Truth

With Metta To All

"
.........

"
.........

what "right thoughts" ?

"
.........

"
.........

Let Explanation Helps Individual See Hindrances

Quote:

Right thoughts is to still the mind, to stop it from making discriminations and nuturing attachments toward certain phenomena and feelings of aversion toward others.When this state of calmness of mind is achieved, the darkness of ignorance and passion will be dispelled and the mind can perceive the underlying unity of the Absolute Truth.

With Metta

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92086
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Feb.11.2009
02:30AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line

gassho

what are the 'right' thoughts for tying stilling ?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92090
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Jareth
Feb.11.2009
03:58AM EDT 
Email Jareth
vertical line

Quote: "Careful Jareth--we all have infinite ammo in this pissing contest!~
"
.........

Either:

a.

I'm sorry. I don't know what this statement is in regard of. Perhaps you can enlighten me! But I don't think it will make me careful not to... ahhh yes, - bruise the egos of those who take people's posts a little too personally.. I hope you haven't invested too much self-esteem into being "right"! - for I have no intention of being "careful".

Or:

b.

Thanks for the warning :-)

 - - - Whichever you think applies to you.

Jareth

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92091
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Jareth
Feb.11.2009
04:10AM EDT 
Email Jareth
vertical line Quote: "

I hear a lot of Buddhist say that enlightenment is not gained from intellectual thinking - that it is personally experienced. But we experience the sun rising every morning and we got that one wrong for thousands of years. It was analytical, reasoned, logical thinking that let us know we are all on a spinning ball whizzing around the sun. How can one every be sure of one's experiences when knowledge is more illuminating and - what's more important - VERIFIABLE?

This is a question that one may ask. This is a question that one may ask when one is looking for truth, wants others to help find truth, or is testing others as to their own finding of truth.

This all amounts to nothing when The awakening of Zen occurrs.

We now have the truth looking for truth.

We now have the truth doubting ways to find truth.

We now have truth doubting that truth can find truth.

"
.........

"
.........

Excellent. Except I see no way forward, or back, from this position.

Jareth

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92093
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Jareth
Feb.11.2009
04:10AM EDT 
Email Jareth
vertical line Quote: "

I hear a lot of Buddhist say that enlightenment is not gained from intellectual thinking - that it is personally experienced. But we experience the sun rising every morning and we got that one wrong for thousands of years. It was analytical, reasoned, logical thinking that let us know we are all on a spinning ball whizzing around the sun. How can one every be sure of one's experiences when knowledge is more illuminating and - what's more important - VERIFIABLE?

This is a question that one may ask. This is a question that one may ask when one is looking for truth, wants others to help find truth, or is testing others as to their own finding of truth.

This all amounts to nothing when The awakening of Zen occurrs.

We now have the truth looking for truth.

We now have the truth doubting ways to find truth.

We now have truth doubting that truth can find truth.

"
.........

"
.........

Excellent. Except I see no way forward, or back, from this position.

Jareth

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92094
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from IZIZIZ
Feb.11.2009
04:39AM EDT 
vertical line

How can one every be sure of one's experiences when knowledge is more illuminating and - what's more important - VERIFIABLE?

Hello Jareth.

Can you please re-write/explain this. I dont want to miscomprehend it.

Why the word illuminating here.

And relax with the giant text. I was only making a distinguishment between subject and answer. I am not 'computer- font- man'.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92095
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from kelvintan
Feb.11.2009
05:20AM EDT 
Email kelvintan
vertical line Quote: "

gassho

what are the 'right' thoughts for tying stilling ?

"
.........

"
.........

Stilling

When you come to know anything for what it really is,there is nothing but

Leave  Every Happenings Is Simply Having to let go and hold on to Nothing

 With awareness and mindfulness of the breathe you can do it.

Good Luck

With Metta

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92096
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from kelvintan
Feb.11.2009
12:07PM EDT 
Email kelvintan
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

I hear a lot of Buddhist say that enlightenment is not gained from intellectual thinking - that it is personally experienced. But we experience the sun rising every morning and we got that one wrong for thousands of years. It was analytical, reasoned, logical thinking that let us know we are all on a spinning ball whizzing around the sun. How can one every be sure of one's experiences when knowledge is more illuminating and - what's more important - VERIFIABLE?

This is a question that one may ask. This is a question that one may ask when one is looking for truth, wants others to help find truth, or is testing others as to their own finding of truth.

This all amounts to nothing when The awakening of Zen occurrs.

We now have the truth looking for truth.

We now have the truth doubting ways to find truth.

We now have truth doubting that truth can find truth.

"
.........

"
.........

Excellent. Except I see no way forward, or back, from this position.

Jareth

"
.........

"
.........

Just Accompanying Respond Examining Truth Have

 this to say:

Those in this position who know the truth learn to love it.

Those in this position who loves the truth learn to live it.

With Metta

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92125
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Mslapik
Feb.11.2009
08:04PM EDT 
Email Mslapik
vertical line

 

Except - We still have no proof that experience is concrete ( objective).

And as for your " Truths of suffering, self, and compassion are not to be found in the external world "  - Unbelievable.. Suffering is not internal. Compassion is not for oneself. These things can ONLY be properly applied to the external world  where other people need our compassion and charity. The " Truths" of course are merely internal, intellectual concepts with emotions attached.

Experience is the only way to observe one’s suffering, one’s compassion, and one’s self, as they only exist meaningfully within one’s mind. (compassion requires another, but it still occurs within YOUR mind) After understanding that, one learns through introspection that the ego causes suffering and helps to prevent compassion.



vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92155
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Jareth
Feb.13.2009
01:28AM EDT 
Email Jareth
vertical line Quote: "

Except - We still have no proof that experience is concrete ( objective).

And as for your " Truths of suffering, self, and compassion are not to be found in the external world "  - Unbelievable.. Suffering is not internal. Compassion is not for oneself. These things can ONLY be properly applied to the external world  where other people need our compassion and charity. The " Truths" of course are merely internal, intellectual concepts with emotions attached.

Experience is the only way to observe one’s suffering, one’s compassion, and one’s self, as they only exist meaningfully within one’s mind. (compassion requires another, but it still occurs within YOUR mind) After understanding that, one learns through introspection that the ego causes suffering and helps to prevent compassion.



"
.........

"
.........

I know anguish can be internal, but... Is pain not physical?



"
.........

"
.........

I know anguish can be internal, but... Is pain not physical?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92247
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Feb.13.2009
03:13AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

gassho

what are the 'right' thoughts for tying stilling ?

"
.........

"
.........

Stilling

When you come to know anything for what it really is,there is nothing but

Leave  Every Happenings Is Simply Having to let go and hold on to Nothing

 With awareness and mindfulness of the breathe you can do it.

Good Luck

With Metta

"
.........

"
.........

but you said "Right thoughts is to still the mind,"

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92258
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from 9999999
Feb.13.2009
04:12AM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Except - We still have no proof that experience is concrete ( objective).

And as for your " Truths of suffering, self, and compassion are not to be found in the external world "  - Unbelievable.. Suffering is not internal. Compassion is not for oneself. These things can ONLY be properly applied to the external world  where other people need our compassion and charity. The " Truths" of course are merely internal, intellectual concepts with emotions attached.

Experience is the only way to observe one’s suffering, one’s compassion, and one’s self, as they only exist meaningfully within one’s mind. (compassion requires another, but it still occurs within YOUR mind) After understanding that, one learns through introspection that the ego causes suffering and helps to prevent compassion.



"
.........

"
.........

I know anguish can be internal, but... Is pain not physical?



"
.........

"
.........

I know anguish can be internal, but... Is pain not physical?

"
.........

Internal, physical......It's All In Your Head

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92262
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from kelvintan
Feb.13.2009
11:35AM EDT 
Email kelvintan
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

gassho

what are the 'right' thoughts for tying stilling ?

"
.........

"
.........

Stilling

When you come to know anything for what it really is,there is nothing but

Leave  Every Happenings Is Simply Having to let go and hold on to Nothing

 With awareness and mindfulness of the breathe you can do it.

Good Luck

With Metta

"
.........

"
.........

but you said "Right thoughts is to still the mind,"

"
.........

"
.........

Consciousness consists of a stream of processes. Right thoughts to still the mind will be the method used in order to make consciousness calm and still, that is to stop the flow of the stream ,in mediatation  it is called Samadhi or meditative absorption or the stage of pure concentration. 

With Metta

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92296
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Feb.13.2009
11:49AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line It's weird how senility changes you. I mean, me, of course, every time, and where. I'm gonna go carve a pentacle design, with sun sphere center, mounted on angled base for pinwheel design feature... of course again, multi-interactive, with every angle.

I gotta go ski! OOP!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92298
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Feb.13.2009
12:19PM EDT 
vertical line I'm lookin' for somewhere to post.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92299
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Feb.13.2009
12:20PM EDT 
vertical line
If the Way brought ? here, what use is the Way, eh?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92300
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from 9999999
Feb.13.2009
12:24PM EDT 
Email 9999999
vertical line eh eh eh eh 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92301
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from circles
Feb.13.2009
09:39PM EDT 
Email circles
vertical line Quote:"
.........

but you said "Right thoughts is to still the mind,"

"
.........

"
.........

First time witnessed use of "personal-pronoun"? (not an attack)

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92331
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from lehish
Feb.14.2009
01:35AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line Quote: "Quote:"
.........

but you said "Right thoughts is to still the mind,"

"
.........

"
.........

First time witnessed use of "personal-pronoun"? (not an attack)

"
.........

"
.........

what read as though there was "an attack" ?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92346
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from circles
Feb.14.2009
03:12AM EDT 
Email circles
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote:"
.........

but you said "Right thoughts is to still the mind,"


"
.........

"
.........


First time witnessed use of "personal-pronoun"? (not an attack)


"
.........

"
.........

what read as though there was "an attack" ?

"
........

Nothing... lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92353
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from IZIZIZ
Feb.14.2009
05:57AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

I hear a lot of Buddhist say that enlightenment is not gained from intellectual thinking - that it is personally experienced. But we experience the sun rising every morning and we got that one wrong for thousands of years. It was analytical, reasoned, logical thinking that let us know we are all on a spinning ball whizzing around the sun. How can one every be sure of one's experiences when knowledge is more illuminating and - what's more important - VERIFIABLE?

This is a question that one may ask. This is a question that one may ask when one is looking for truth, wants others to help find truth, or is testing others as to their own finding of truth.

This all amounts to nothing when The awakening of Zen occurrs.

We now have the truth looking for truth.

We now have the truth doubting ways to find truth.

We now have truth doubting that truth can find truth.

"
.........

"
.........

Excellent. Except I see no way forward, or back, from this position.

Jareth

"
.........

"
.........

We now have truth seeing no way back or forth from this position.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92356
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Feb.14.2009
07:49AM EDT 
vertical line There's no you without I, me, miney whiney whiney who.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92370
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Feb.14.2009
08:19AM EDT 
vertical line O showmethewaytogohome
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92384
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Feb.14.2009
08:20AM EDT 
vertical line O showyouthewaytoclimbdown
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92385
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Mslapik
Feb.14.2009
05:30PM EDT 
Email Mslapik
vertical line "
.........

I know anguish can be internal, but... Is pain not physical?

"
.........

Anguish, not pain. (I think)

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92422
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Feb.14.2009
06:01PM EDT 
vertical line Anguish pain, pain anguish, what's the difference?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92423
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Mslapik
Feb.14.2009
07:45PM EDT 
Email Mslapik
vertical line Quote: "Anguish pain, pain anguish, what's the difference?"
.........
Mental physical, physical mental.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92428
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from ______
Feb.16.2009
12:46PM EDT 
vertical line Mental physical, physical mental, what's the difference?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92521
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Feb.16.2009
03:01PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Gender. 100 years ago.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 92542
horizontal line
 
Back To Topic List   Go to Top of Page

 



SUPPORT ZENGUIDE.COM
If you are planning on purchasing any product from amazon.com, you can help us out by using the search box to the right or by clicking on this link to begin shopping.


Purchase posters, art prints, media (music CD & DVD)

buy this MONK IN SHAOLIN
by Isabel Munoz
Puchase this Item
More Art Prints & Media
Zen & Buddhism books
 
 
d
.
i
.
s
.
c
.
u
.
s
.
s
.
i
.
o
.
n
.

.
f
.
o
.
r
.
u
.
m
.
Copyright © 1999 - 2014 zenguide.com - All rights reserved. °