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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: ZEN AND REASON?
vertical line Posted on Mar.10.2009 @ 05:39PM EDT by diver15

Hello this is my first post here and I don’t mean to seem impertinent but I have a question that has been stressing me for a long time. Do Zen and its practices contradict or disallow reason, if not, what is its place? Is the goal of a Zen practitioner not to use their mind but just to know? Again I don’t want to be rude but I am very confused and am willing to try any practice to get the answer. Or just gain some knowledge on the subject.


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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.10.2009
06:58PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line "The senses do not hinder enlightenment as much as the intellect does." - Back to Beginnings, Reflections on the Tao, Huanchu Daoren
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93820
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Reply from diver15
Mar.10.2009
07:29PM EDT 
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so what you are saying is that intelect and reason interfere with enlightenment. but what if everyone on earth were a zen budhist And did not think or reason, what would happen then if the land dried up or a meteor was on its way to earth? Would we just sit and die? Would we need to think of a solution to problems like this?  

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93821
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Reply from shayne
Mar.10.2009
08:04PM EDT 
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vertical line reason is PART of it.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93823
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Reply from shayne
Mar.10.2009
08:20PM EDT 
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and using the mind is good.

to be thoughtful is good.

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Reply from chontri
Mar.10.2009
09:18PM EDT 
Email chontri
vertical line Posted on Mar.10.2009 @ 05:39PM EDT by diver15

Hello this is my first post here and I don’t mean to seem impertinent but I have a question that has been stressing me for a long time. Do Zen and its practices contradict or disallow reason, if not, what is its place? Is the goal of a Zen practitioner not to use their mind but just to know? Again I don’t want to be rude but I am very confused and am willing to try any practice to get the answer. Or just gain some knowledge on the subject.

-----

Hello there,

ChonTri does not know anything about the Zen you mentioned here.  What he knows is when he practices he practices, when he reasons he reasons.  He would not put his practice against his reason or vice versa, because he can see that if he make them a problem then the problem will go nowhere.  Furthermore, when a meteor comes to the earth or the water on the earth dries up, who'd want to sit and die, just sit and die, who'd want to think and find a solution for the problem, just think and find it out.  Let alone they may get together and help.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93825
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Reply from kelvintan
Mar.10.2009
10:03PM EDT 
Email kelvintan
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Doubts Is Very Eminent Read

The Heart Sutra.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/hartpre1.htm

Sadhu! Sadhu !Sadhu ! to Chontri and

With Metta to all

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93828
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Reply from immortal 1
Mar.11.2009
05:28AM EDT 
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Eventually logic fails in spiritual matters, Zen or otherwise.

Reason depends on at least two things being present, so that one can follow another:

     If this, then that.

Such is logic.

Zen is predicated on an understanding that all is One,  and One is all.

If you cling to logic you will never attain understanding.

Logic is something to hang on to.  Eventually you will not need anything to hang on to.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93832
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Mar.11.2009
08:05AM EDT 
vertical line For what reason is a tree a tree and not something else that does the exact same job or serve the exact same purpose? 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93841
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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.11.2009
10:23AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line

so what you are saying is that intellect and reason interfere with enlightenment. but what if everyone on earth were a zen Buddhist  And did not think or reason, what would happen then if the land dried up or a meteor was on its way to earth? Would we just sit and die? Would we need to think of a solution to problems like this?



Learning how to relax into pain, fear and death is the best reason to take on mindfulness.


vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93842
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Reply from immortal 1
Mar.12.2009
05:11AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

so what you are saying is that intellect and reason interfere with enlightenment. but what if everyone on earth were a zen Buddhist  And did not think or reason, what would happen then if the land dried up or a meteor was on its way to earth? Would we just sit and die? Would we need to think of a solution to problems like this?



Learning how to relax into pain, fear and death is the best reason to take on mindfulness.


"
.........

"
.........

I do not know what mindfulness is.  I may be closer to mindlessness.

I do not fear death. 

Pain is the way that the brain directs the body not to use an injured part until it has had a chance to heal or recuperate.

Reason and the intellect do not preclude enlightenment, or understanding.  Clinging to reason keeps one from accepting enlightenment.  If you will only accept things that can be reasoned logically, and enlightenment or understanding cannot be reasoned logically, then you cannot accept enlightmenment or understanding.

That is a choice that should be respected.

"
.........

I do not know what mindfulness is.  I may be closer to mindlessness.

I do not fear death. 

Pain is the way that the brain directs the body not to use an injured part until it has had a chance to heal or recuperate.

Reason and the intellect do not preclude enlightenment, or understanding.  Clinging to reason keeps one from accepting enlightenment.  If you will only accept things that can be reasoned logically, and enlightenment or understanding cannot be reasoned logically, then you cannot accept enlightmenment or understanding.

That is a choice that should be respected.

"
.........

I do not know what mindfulness is.  I may be closer to mindlessness.

I do not fear death. 

Pain is the way that the brain directs the body not to use an injured part until it has had a chance to heal or recuperate.

Reason and the intellect do not preclude enlightenment, or understanding.  Clinging to reason keeps one from accepting enlightenment.  If you will only accept things that can be reasoned logically, and enlightenment or understanding cannot be reasoned logically, then you cannot accept enlightmenment or understanding.

That is a choice that should be respected.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93849
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Reply from shayne
Mar.12.2009
10:04AM EDT 
Email shayne
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ChonTri does not know anything about the Zen you mentioned here.  What he knows is when he practices he practices, when he reasons he reasons.  He would not put his practice against his reason or vice versa, because he can see that if he make them a problem then the problem will go nowhere

lets NOT make a problem with reasoning and logic.

they are part of the human being.

even chontris words hold true to this.

kiddies DONT listen to immortal one.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93865
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Reply from shayne
Mar.12.2009
10:09AM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

so what you are saying is that intellect and reason interfere with enlightenment. but what if everyone on earth were a zen Buddhist  And did not think or reason, what would happen then if the land dried up or a meteor was on its way to earth? Would we just sit and die? Would we need to think of a solution to problems like this?



Learning how to relax into pain, fear and death is the best reason to take on mindfulness.


"
.........

"
.........

I do not know what mindfulness is.  I may be closer to mindlessness.

I do not fear death. 

Pain is the way that the brain directs the body not to use an injured part until it has had a chance to heal or recuperate.

Reason and the intellect do not preclude enlightenment, or understanding.  Clinging to reason keeps one from accepting enlightenment.  If you will only accept things that can be reasoned logically, and enlightenment or understanding cannot be reasoned logically, then you cannot accept enlightmenment or understanding.

That is a choice that should be respected.

"
.........

I do not know what mindfulness is.  I may be closer to mindlessness.

I do not fear death. 

Pain is the way that the brain directs the body not to use an injured part until it has had a chance to heal or recuperate.

Reason and the intellect do not preclude enlightenment, or understanding.  Clinging to reason keeps one from accepting enlightenment.  If you will only accept things that can be reasoned logically, and enlightenment or understanding cannot be reasoned logically, then you cannot accept enlightmenment or understanding.

That is a choice that should be respected.

"
.........

I do not know what mindfulness is.  I may be closer to mindlessness.

I do not fear death. 

Pain is the way that the brain directs the body not to use an injured part until it has had a chance to heal or recuperate.

Reason and the intellect do not preclude enlightenment, or understanding.  Clinging to reason keeps one from accepting enlightenment.  If you will only accept things that can be reasoned logically, and enlightenment or understanding cannot be reasoned logically, then you cannot accept enlightmenment or understanding.

That is a choice that should be respected.

"
.........

"
.........

reason and intellect are PART of the equation immortal1.

you would cut yourself in half and get rid of an aspect of yourself?

nah........kiddies dont listen to this one.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93867
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Reply from diver15
Mar.12.2009
05:42PM EDT 
vertical line is what chontri telling me that you can't reason your way to enlightenment but you can reason your way through things of reason? That becoming enlightend does not meen giving up your mind, only seting it aside when trying to become enlightend? If so than I understan.  Reason is reason and enlightenment is enlightenment, you can't cross contaminate the two.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93874
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Reply from shayne
Mar.12.2009
09:49PM EDT 
Email shayne
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Quote: "is what chontri telling me that you can't reason your way to enlightenment but you can reason your way through things of reason? That becoming enlightend does not meen giving up your mind, only seting it aside when trying to become enlightend? If so than I understan.  Reason is reason and enlightenment is enlightenment, you can't cross contaminate the two. "
.........

pretty much.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93884
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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.12.2009
11:17PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line reason shmeezen
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93885
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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.12.2009
11:28PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line I wonder, as I wander, if chon tri schmeezens, schmoozens or schmoozens. I know shayners diz, doz, and dos sneither of dem tings. Ping-pinger.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93886
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Reply from Woodsman
Mar.12.2009
11:30PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Quote: "I wonder, as I wander, if chon tri schmeezens, schmoozens or schmozens. I know shayners diz, doz, and dos sneither of dem tings. Ping-pinger. "
.........

oopeedoopeezen, I schpelt it rong
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93887
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Reply from lehish
Mar.13.2009
03:39AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line Quote: "

ChonTri does not know anything about the Zen you mentioned here.  What he knows is when he practices he practices, when he reasons he reasons.  He would not put his practice against his reason or vice versa, because he can see that if he make them a problem then the problem will go nowhere

lets NOT make a problem with reasoning and logic.

they are part of the human being.

even chontris words hold true to this.

kiddies DONT listen to immortal one.

"
.........

"
.........

what did you interpret as though chontri posted making a problem?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93889
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Reply from lehish
Mar.13.2009
03:40AM EDT 
Email lehish
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

so what you are saying is that intellect and reason interfere with enlightenment. but what if everyone on earth were a zen Buddhist  And did not think or reason, what would happen then if the land dried up or a meteor was on its way to earth? Would we just sit and die? Would we need to think of a solution to problems like this?



Learning how to relax into pain, fear and death is the best reason to take on mindfulness.


"
.........

"
.........

I do not know what mindfulness is.  I may be closer to mindlessness.

I do not fear death. 

Pain is the way that the brain directs the body not to use an injured part until it has had a chance to heal or recuperate.

Reason and the intellect do not preclude enlightenment, or understanding.  Clinging to reason keeps one from accepting enlightenment.  If you will only accept things that can be reasoned logically, and enlightenment or understanding cannot be reasoned logically, then you cannot accept enlightmenment or understanding.

That is a choice that should be respected.

"
.........

I do not know what mindfulness is.  I may be closer to mindlessness.

I do not fear death. 

Pain is the way that the brain directs the body not to use an injured part until it has had a chance to heal or recuperate.

Reason and the intellect do not preclude enlightenment, or understanding.  Clinging to reason keeps one from accepting enlightenment.  If you will only accept things that can be reasoned logically, and enlightenment or understanding cannot be reasoned logically, then you cannot accept enlightmenment or understanding.

That is a choice that should be respected.

"
.........

I do not know what mindfulness is.  I may be closer to mindlessness.

I do not fear death. 

Pain is the way that the brain directs the body not to use an injured part until it has had a chance to heal or recuperate.

Reason and the intellect do not preclude enlightenment, or understanding.  Clinging to reason keeps one from accepting enlightenment.  If you will only accept things that can be reasoned logically, and enlightenment or understanding cannot be reasoned logically, then you cannot accept enlightmenment or understanding.

That is a choice that should be respected.

"
.........

"
.........

reason and intellect are PART of the equation immortal1.

you would cut yourself in half and get rid of an aspect of yourself?

nah........kiddies dont listen to this one.

"
.........

"
.........

what equation ?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93890
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Reply from IZIZIZ
Mar.13.2009
04:06AM EDT 
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Quote: "For what reason is a tree a tree and not something else that does the exact same job or serve the exact same purpose? "
.........

What is the reason???

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93893
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Reply from immortal 1
Mar.13.2009
07:09AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

ChonTri does not know anything about the Zen you mentioned here.  What he knows is when he practices he practices, when he reasons he reasons.  He would not put his practice against his reason or vice versa, because he can see that if he make them a problem then the problem will go nowhere

lets NOT make a problem with reasoning and logic.

they are part of the human being.

even chontris words hold true to this.

kiddies DONT listen to immortal one.

"
.........

"
.........

Maybe your advice is good Shayne.

I'm not always human, as I travel by means of astral travel and transcendental meditation to other planes of existence.

Or then maybe that is all in my imagination.  Mere dellusion.  I do not really care.  It is all experience to me, and I am not limited to human experience.

I live in a universe of universes, of unlimited possibilities, and I am not grounded by logic and reason so that I refuse to accept what The Mind, The Universal Consciousness, my Inner Self, or what have you, wishes to show me because it does not jibe with my preconceived notions.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93894
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Reply from chontri
Mar.13.2009
07:12AM EDT 
Email chontri
vertical line Quote: "is what chontri telling me that you can't reason your way to enlightenment but you can reason your way through things of reason? That becoming enlightend does not meen giving up your mind, only seting it aside when trying to become enlightend? If so than I understan.  Reason is reason and enlightenment is enlightenment, you can't cross contaminate the two. "
.........
Mr. Diver15,
ChonTri does not know what "englightenment" is, so he would not talk about it. 
In the previous post, he just mentioned some daily activities. That's all.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93895
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Reply from immortal 1
Mar.13.2009
07:16AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "is what chontri telling me that you can't reason your way to enlightenment but you can reason your way through things of reason? That becoming enlightend does not meen giving up your mind, only seting it aside when trying to become enlightend? If so than I understan.  Reason is reason and enlightenment is enlightenment, you can't cross contaminate the two. "
.........

Enlightenment is understanding of non-duality.

Logic and reason are functions of duality.

You can exclude one for the sake of the other, being all non-dual or all dual.  But I think it is best in this life that we are living and sharing here to make the best use of both at the same time.

This is a 3d plane of existence where cause and effect are the rule of the day.  So logic and reason are needed here.  Still at the same time it may help to remember that not all planes of existence are of the same mode, and that ultimately this plane and all planes are a part of a greater whole which by all accounts is indescribable and indefinable.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93896
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Reply from chontri
Mar.13.2009
07:23AM EDT 
Email chontri
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "is what chontri telling me that you can't reason your way to enlightenment but you can reason your way through things of reason? That becoming enlightend does not meen giving up your mind, only seting it aside when trying to become enlightend? If so than I understan.  Reason is reason and enlightenment is enlightenment, you can't cross contaminate the two. "
.........

Enlightenment is understanding of non-duality.

Logic and reason are functions of duality.

You can exclude one for the sake of the other, being all non-dual or all dual.  But I think it is best in this life that we are living and sharing here to make the best use of both at the same time.

This is a 3d plane of existence where cause and effect are the rule of the day.  So logic and reason are needed here.  Still at the same time it may help to remember that not all planes of existence are of the same mode, and that ultimately this plane and all planes are a part of a greater whole which by all accounts is indescribable and indefinable.

"
.........
Mr. Immortal1,
Have a cup of green tea. 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93897
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Reply from immortal 1
Mar.13.2009
07:26AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Quote: "is what chontri telling me that you can't reason your way to enlightenment but you can reason your way through things of reason? That becoming enlightend does not meen giving up your mind, only seting it aside when trying to become enlightend? If so than I understan.  Reason is reason and enlightenment is enlightenment, you can't cross contaminate the two. "
.........
Mr. Diver15,
ChonTri does not know what "englightenment" is, so he would not talk about it. 
In the previous post, he just mentioned some daily activities. That's all.
"
.........

Enlightenment can be a convenient term of reference, but to define it would not be well because ultimately there is nothing to learn, nothing to understand.

Everything is changing constantly.  What is there to learn if nothing is permanent?  What is there to understand if nothing remains the same?  To the extent that there is enlightenment it is the understanding of that.  Reality is constantly changing, but what you are experiencing is always real to you.

I will not deny understanding or enlightenment for the sake of humility, because if you have such things to deny them in such a way is an exercise of ego.  If you have had a satori experience, or kensho, say so, as a fact, not as a claim to something that other people do not have, even if they take it that way.  We all have the same things, we are all the same One, its just that some of us do not understand how or why yet.

What I understand about enlightenment does not make me more or less than anyone or anything else.  If I have a million dollars and I know it, and you have a million dollars and you do not know it, how am I richer than you?  I am not.

Please keep your ego off of me.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93898
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Reply from chontri
Mar.13.2009
07:32AM EDT 
Email chontri
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Quote: "is what chontri telling me that you can't reason your way to enlightenment but you can reason your way through things of reason? That becoming enlightend does not meen giving up your mind, only seting it aside when trying to become enlightend? If so than I understan.  Reason is reason and enlightenment is enlightenment, you can't cross contaminate the two. "
.........
Mr. Diver15,
ChonTri does not know what "englightenment" is, so he would not talk about it. 
In the previous post, he just mentioned some daily activities. That's all.
"
.........

Enlightenment can be a convenient term of reference, but to define it would not be well because ultimately there is nothing to learn, nothing to understand.

Everything is changing constantly.  What is there to learn if nothing is permanent?  What is there to understand if nothing remains the same?  To the extent that there is enlightenment it is the understanding of that.  Reality is constantly changing, but what you are experiencing is always real to you.

I will not deny understanding or enlightenment for the sake of humility, because if you have such things to deny them in such a way is an exercise of ego.  If you have had a satori experience, or kensho, say so, as a fact, not as a claim to something that other people do not have, even if they take it that way.  We all have the same things, we are all the same One, its just that some of us do not understand how or why yet.

What I understand about enlightenment does not make me more or less than anyone or anything else.  If I have a million dollars and I know it, and you have a million dollars and you do not know it, how am I richer than you?  I am not.

Please keep your ego off of me.

"
.........

"
.........

Have a cup of green tea, Mr. Immortal1

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 93899
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