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  Posted on Aug.11.2009 @ 08:05PM EDT by chontri
Different winds come from all directions. Some are clear, some carry dust,
some are cold or hot, fierce gales or gentle breezes. In the same way
sensations arise in the body... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: THINKING
vertical line Posted on Jan.26.2012 @ 06:35PM EDT by nowornever
I wonder what kind of thinking is in Zenguide's participants' minds?

Non's thinking:seeking enlightenment, seeking pleasure(hunger, sleep, sex), aloneness, desire to help others.

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Reply from suchness`
Jan.26.2012
06:39PM EDT 
vertical line its doesn't matter.

its not about thinking.
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Reply from nowornever
Jan.26.2012
06:49PM EDT 
Email nowornever
vertical line Not enough?
Suchness my friend-it is not about thinking??
But there is only thinking, is it not?! What is in your mind, in each one of us, that is not thinking? Can you kindly tell me?


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Reply from Hollow
Jan.26.2012
07:06PM EDT 
vertical line I thought you were a mirror of the masters, NoN?

But when you're thinking you come up with seeking enlightenment, seeking pleasure, aloneness, desire to help others?

What are you when you're not thinking?
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Reply from nowornever
Jan.26.2012
07:13PM EDT 
Email nowornever
vertical line When I am not thinking I am DOING. Sleeping, talking, bowing, sittion each time I come back from the toilet at night. The rest is thinking...

Nines are mirrors, but dirty mirrors. clear mirrors are any type 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9, but enlightened ones...I am still seeking enlightenment.
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Reply from suchness`
Jan.26.2012
10:19PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Not enough?
Suchness my friend-it is not about thinking??
But there is only thinking, is it not?! What is in your mind, in each one of us, that is not thinking? Can you kindly tell me?


"
.........
mind chatter, so called thinking, seems to be the biggest obstacle to enlightenment.

pointed concentration in the moment, being totally immersed in the present, has little use for thought.

it seems when the mind is blank and the instincts takeover, we can be ever true to our true nature in that moment of relationship and work. thinking f's everything up! that is more of the egos game of hither and thither, catch me now if you can. nothing can be caught, nothing lost but the moment.

it matters little whats in my mind our yours, that is besides the 'point of concentration'.






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Reply from suchness`
Jan.26.2012
10:38PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "When I am not thinking I am DOING. Sleeping, talking, bowing, sittion each time I come back from the toilet at night. The rest is thinking...

Nines are mirrors, but dirty mirrors. clear mirrors are any type 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9, but enlightened ones...I am still seeking enlightenment.
"
.........th
it seems there is no seeking, it will find you when you are ready.

seeking is chasing, chasing is your tail.

seemingly following every breath when conscious, in work or play, ends the game of hide and seek. if ever finger that hits a key has breath, there is more chance that that hit will be more pointed and true. hitting that key while the minds chatters somewhere out side the body, ends up releasing words of an embellishment ego.

when typing, type.
when playing guitar, play guitar...... being totally immersed in that moment of Zen, while nothing (no-thing) matters, that is where god, buddha and our true nature languishes.

these have been, are, very hard lessons for suchness to attain. thanks to NoN for the lessons for 'now', in the moment of no thought!
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Reply from suchness`
Jan.26.2012
10:50PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "When I am not thinking I am DOING. Sleeping, talking, bowing, sittion each time I come back from the toilet at night. The rest is thinking...

Nines are mirrors, but dirty mirrors. clear mirrors are any type 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9, but enlightened ones...I am still seeking enlightenment.
"
.........

it seems there is no seeking, it will find you when you are ready.

seeking is chasing, chasing is your tail.

seemingly to follow every breath when conscious, in work or play, ends the game of hide and seek. if every finger that hits a key has breath, there is more chance that that hit will be more pointed and true. hitting that key while the minds chatters somewhere out side the body, ends up releasing words of an embellished ego.

when typing, type.
when playing guitar, play guitar...... being totally immersed in that moment of Zen, while nothing (no-thing) matters, that is where god, buddha and our true nature languishes.

these have been, are, very hard lessons for suchness to attain. thanks to NoN for the lessons for 'now', in the moment of no thought!
"
+++++++++
a redo of the above post for some clarity if possible :)
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Reply from suchness`
Jan.27.2012
12:17AM EDT 
vertical line it seems western christian minds are quite busy, just being busy, competing and accumulating. there is never enough, or its not big enough (thats what she said :). this very insecure ego of the westerner is headed from one antidote to another, be it drugs, alcohol or food, ect. seemingly wanting to fill that big hole or void with something to escape the pain of the emotional moment. by not being present in the now and being in touch with our true feelings and emotions, we stay stuck in pain and depression, while the mind is going one hundred miles an hour to no-where.

it seems eastern, more mystical minded, are less egoic and more grounded in the moment. the east is much older in the historical sense, mature if you will, and seemingly more grounded from a culture that is not so accumulation obsessed, there needs are much less, their minds are much more quiet (for the most part, of course).

suchness can own most of the first paragraph, and has been in and out meditation processes, mystical and metaphysical realms for some 25 years. from Yogananda, to Zen and Chon Tri, and all roads in between. the earliest years of this seeking of self, our truest nature, was by accident (not seeking NoN), falling deeply into meditation that was quite deep and blissful, and for the most part could take it through the day, in relationship and work. but as some do, suchness moved ever so slowly away form this state, back into more ego and pain. It can kind of sneak up on you if you are not ‘aware’ and before you know it, its mostly gone.

not speaking for anyone else, how is it possible to quiet the chatter and insanity that prevails, without going deep within.... how?? anything else seems from denial of what Is. it seems meditation is a simple process of 5 or 10 minutes of following breath in and out, as the chatter comes and goes, letting it go, and back to following breath (just keep keepin it on). gradually building up the minutes (this is for NoN, since he inquired) to 15, then 20 and so on. it seems once a person arrives at around 45 minutes to one hour, differences can be subtly felt and recognized (can take months, but the journey is well worth it). it takes a lot of stick to-it-ness. one can not make your self sit, it has to come when you are ready and willing. also have had good luck laying in bed after awakening, but am also moving to more sitting, and/or a combination of both. have found after years of this, that is like muscle memory, if you have ever lifted weights for long periods of time, left it and came back, the muscles actually remember and so does the mind/body with meditation. mentioning in a much earlier thread, meditation (once you get to some depth) is the best drug one can do, and that comes from experience ;)!! if this did not bore or confuse you, get a life!!, just kidding of course. please excuse mistakes, messy grammar and phrasing.

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Reply from nowornever
Jan.27.2012
06:06AM EDT 
Email nowornever
vertical line You're quite right. I sit not enough. I feel more and more that for me only forum writing is bad, forum and meditation is also bad(conclusion from yesterday), only meditation is good, probably bowing and sitting now, eventually less bowing and more sitting when my mind slows down. Slowly I will write less and less here, not only for the benefit of other readers, but also for my sake. I'll try it.

My paragraph above is also too much thinking ;)
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Reply from so_teh
Jan.27.2012
04:23PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line The scratch pad method works for me. My thinking is very scratch pad.
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Reply from so_teh
Jan.27.2012
04:25PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line I probably shouldn't use forums as my scratch pad, oh well.
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Reply from so_teh
Jan.27.2012
04:35PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line A very liberating type of thinking.
Almost the end of thought just ruminants.
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Reply from so_teh
Jan.27.2012
04:50PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line You're better off not thinking essentially but you think just in case anyone is listening. It's just what it is.
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Reply from so_teh
Jan.27.2012
04:58PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Om to thy ruminants
May the Noble Way be
Love to Thy Lord
I see you in Me.
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Reply from so_teh
Jan.27.2012
05:07PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Nevermind I should just save it. ;)
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Reply from nowornever
Jan.27.2012
05:32PM EDT 
Email nowornever
vertical line Listen to the cries of the universe. I am crying. My thinking is crying...
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Reply from so_teh
Jan.27.2012
05:50PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Ruminate toward love, love to the death.
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Reply from nowornever
Jan.27.2012
07:03PM EDT 
Email nowornever
vertical line Do you love me?
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Reply from so_teh
Jan.29.2012
08:08AM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Love yourself NoN
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jan.29.2012
08:30AM EDT 
vertical line Love me, love my moo.
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Reply from nowornever
Jan.29.2012
08:33AM EDT 
Email nowornever
vertical line I am not silly old moo!
By the way, does a cow think?
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jan.29.2012
08:37AM EDT 
vertical line I think you're in want of what you need.
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Reply from suchness`
Jan.29.2012
12:18PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "I am not silly old moo!
By the way, does a cow think?
"
.........
no, it seems animals do not think. they 'just do it' from an instinctual level of awareness, as apposed to a human ego level.

so it seems thinking does not get in their way, they just act from the basic biological level of survival (maybe animal ego here :), even the domesticated, cats and dogs. it seems they do become one with a person they spend so much of their lives with, but it seemingly is an instinctual connection. they cannot reason, only responding from a Pavlov repetitive habit forming level.

most like the touching and petting, even in the wild, which seems to be at an animalistic level, even us humoniods. humans seem to need the emotional petting or strokes of attention, at least those who are uncomfortable in their own skin. this attention seems needed from an insecure level, much of which could be compared to physical needs of animals, because they do not think, it seems their emotions are more instinctually stable, esp with a couple of coming physical strokes.
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Reply from starduster
Jan.30.2012
05:40AM EDT 
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I was once very ambitious.  I had my eye on the top slot in the organization in which I worked and hoped one day, through dedication and hard work, to get to that position.

Then I had an *awakening* and all of that ceased to matter in an instant. 

As Osho put it, it was *like a conference call with God and Death, simultaneously*.  Of course that is only a way of pointing, or referring in an abstract way, not to be taken literally.

My life, the life I knew, ended in an instant.  Since then I have been living a different kind of life, with nothing to lose or gain.  Ambition has no meaning.  But it is much more relaxed and enjoyable.

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Reply from nowornever
Jan.30.2012
05:07PM EDT 
Email nowornever
vertical line How does your thinking relate to 2012 moon tilt?
Is it enjoyable?
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Reply from starduster
Jan.31.2012
04:51AM EDT 
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Quote: "How does your thinking relate to 2012 moon tilt?
Is it enjoyable?
"
.........

What 2012 Moon tilt ?

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Reply from nowornever
Jan.31.2012
05:26AM EDT 
Email nowornever
vertical line http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDaFs6wMz9Y
Last night I looked at the moon and it was like a bowl, not like the moon. I hope the north and south poles are still in the same place...
My thinking hurts badly.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Jan.31.2012
07:42AM EDT 
vertical line Tilt mechanism was a significant evolutionary development in the history of Pinball.
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Reply from Hollow
Jan.31.2012
12:12PM EDT 
vertical line Mind tilts.
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Reply from starduster
Feb.01.2012
08:27AM EDT 
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Quote: "Mind tilts."
.........

My mind tilts inward.

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Reply from Avisitor
Jun.17.2012
03:15AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line As much as I can fathom, thinking is me or the one who thinks I am .. thinking
When asked to meditate, the think doesn't wish to stop ..
How can I be and still observe if there is no one to observe that I am here watching
So, here I am thinking that when the time comes, I will pay attention and finally see what is left after the thinking stops. And, the cycle continues.
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Reply from starduster
Jun.17.2012
06:51AM EDT 
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Quote: "As much as I can fathom, thinking is me or the one who thinks I am .. thinking
When asked to meditate, the think doesn't wish to stop ..
How can I be and still observe if there is no one to observe that I am here watching
So, here I am thinking that when the time comes, I will pay attention and finally see what is left after the thinking stops. And, the cycle continues.
"
.........

I learned to stop the internal dialogue at an early age, about one or two, which is a bit odd since I couldnt talk yet, but still remember playing dead so completely that I was *not even thinking*, even though I dont know what language I was using to think at that age.

My big brother, who would have been four at the time, or thereabouts, used to bother me endlessly and the only way to escape him was to play dead.  Then he would flip me and flop me for a few minutes and then get bored and finds something else to do.

From that I learned that internal silence is a very comfortable retreat.  Often I would lay there in internal silence even after he had moved on because I was happy that way.

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Reply from Avisitor
Jun.17.2012
02:21PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Even when the words are quieted down, there is still movement or thought
Something rattles around and shows attention and intent
Not thinking ... still there is thinking ... should I just try to keep still and silent??
How is it to have no thought and still walk and do .. with mindful awareness??
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Reply from starduster
Jun.18.2012
07:28AM EDT 
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Quote: "Even when the words are quieted down, there is still movement or thought
Something rattles around and shows attention and intent
Not thinking ... still there is thinking ... should I just try to keep still and silent??
How is it to have no thought and still walk and do .. with mindful awareness??
"
.........

Try this:

Lie down on the couch with your feet, shoes loosened, on the arm of the couch.

No pillow.  It is relaxing when the feet are higher than the head.

Tense up your legs for a few seconds, and then let the tension go.

Do the same with arms, torso, scrunch up shoulders and neck, face too,

and then tighten your whole body for a few seconds, and then let the tension go.

This will prevent cramping, and usually within a few minutes I can no longer feel my body.

Its much cheaper and easier to use than a sensory deprivation tank, and has been a trusted method of Yogis for centuries to prepare for meditation.

Lie on your back with arms and legs outward slightly, not touching your body, palms up, index fingers to thumbs.

Think about your breathing.  Let your breathing substitute for any internal dialogue you may have.  Listen to your breathing instead of an inner voice.  Do not move, even to scratch.  If you do the session is over, failed, better luck next time.  An itch will go away if left alone, if you have the discipline to leave it alone.  If you dont, youre not ready yet.

If breathing alone will not substitute for the inner voice, you may try some self-hypnosis.  Repeat:  *Take a deep breath in, hold it, and let it out slowly, slowly, slowly, becoming more and more relaxed with each breath* 

If your mind wanders, thats no surprise.  Each time you catch it, bring it back to center, to your breathing, or your self-hypnosis, or other mantra of your own choosing.  When I first started meditation I would repeat a question over and over again, and I did that until I ran out of questions.  They were all answered, and still are.  I no longer have to ask.

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Reply from Avisitor
Jun.18.2012
10:32AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Try this:

Lie down on the couch with your feet, shoes loosened, on the arm of the couch.

No pillow.  It is relaxing when the feet are higher than the head.

Tense up your legs for a few seconds, and then let the tension go.

Do the same with arms, torso, scrunch up shoulders and neck, face too,

and then tighten your whole body for a few seconds, and then let the tension go.

This will prevent cramping, and usually within a few minutes I can no longer feel my body.

Its much cheaper and easier to use than a sensory deprivation tank, and has been a trusted method of Yogis for centuries to prepare for meditation.

Lie on your back with arms and legs outward slightly, not touching your body, palms up, index fingers to thumbs.

Think about your breathing.  Let your breathing substitute for any internal dialogue you may have.  Listen to your breathing instead of an inner voice.  Do not move, even to scratch.  If you do the session is over, failed, better luck next time.  An itch will go away if left alone, if you have the discipline to leave it alone.  If you dont, youre not ready yet.

If breathing alone will not substitute for the inner voice, you may try some self-hypnosis.  Repeat:  *Take a deep breath in, hold it, and let it out slowly, slowly, slowly, becoming more and more relaxed with each breath* 

If your mind wanders, thats no surprise.  Each time you catch it, bring it back to center, to your breathing, or your self-hypnosis, or other mantra of your own choosing.  When I first started meditation I would repeat a question over and over again, and I did that until I ran out of questions.  They were all answered, and still are.  I no longer have to ask.

"
.........
I have gotten to the point where I can sort of distance myself from the sensations my body feels at the moment I am focused upon my breathe.
The internal dialogue slows but never seems to quite stop.
Cause it seems that I am the internal dialogue.
I try to use the focus upon breathe as a means to quiet down the noise
When it is silent, I become weak and sometimes fall asleep.

My question is .. while one continues to do the things required in ones life, do we just continue to quiet down the internal dialogue/ noise??
Does mindful awareness continue?
Some activities require thought .. so what should I do about that??

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