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TOPIC: ZEN VS MINDFULNESS VS TM |
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Posted on Feb.12.2012 @ 05:46PM EDT by Ricky1990
I'm currently looking into Mindfulness meditation to help with depression and anxiety, but I am curious to know more about Zen and the differences between Mindfulness and Zen.
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Reply from nowornever
Feb.12.2012
06:02PM EDT
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Zen Master who lives 20 min from me says that the most importan word in zen is ATTENTION. |
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Reply from starduster
Feb.13.2012
06:37AM EDT
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I was an abused kid and have suffered from depression all of my life. 75% of abused kids get major depression, the other 25% get mild depression. I believe I fall into the 25% with mild depression because I got into meditation. A friend with major depression recently died at age 57, from drinking too much.
I believe that sitting and meditation have a very positive effect in reversing depression. Knowledge of the condition itself is also key. Know the enemy, and know yourself too.
Attention, being able to drop everything and just be in the moment, is important. I think the easiest way to do that is to stop the internal dialogue, and breathe deeply, using the stomach muscles. You can do that anytime, and preferably all the time. |
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Reply from shayne
Feb.13.2012
10:17AM EDT
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mindfullness is zen.
pay attention.
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Reply from BlankName
Feb.13.2012
05:24PM EDT
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The spirit of meditation is 'Watch, it will come.' But if you tell that to a non-meditator they'll think otherwise because they just don't have any sense in the notion 'It arrives as it will.' Something worries them about that.
I think this is why mindfulness is so important because you're waiting for 'the thing' to happen through meditation or spontaneity that until it does you'll be consciously living with care. |
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Reply from en-Joy
Feb.13.2012
06:31PM EDT
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Quote: "The spirit of meditation is 'Watch, it will come.' But if you tell that to a non-meditator they'll think otherwise because they just don't have any sense in the notion 'It arrives as it will.' Something worries them about that.
I think this is why mindfulness is so important because you're waiting for 'the thing' to happen through meditation or spontaneity that until it does you'll be consciously living with care."
.........
Just watch, without waiting. |
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Reply from starduster
Feb.14.2012
05:22AM EDT
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Quote: "Quote: "The spirit of meditation is 'Watch, it will come.' But if you tell that to a non-meditator they'll think otherwise because they just don't have any sense in the notion 'It arrives as it will.' Something worries them about that.
I think this is why mindfulness is so important because you're waiting for 'the thing' to happen through meditation or spontaneity that until it does you'll be consciously living with care."
.........
Just watch, without waiting."
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To sit is neither to watch nor wait, nor anything at all. Motionless, silent, blank.
To meditate is to focus on one thing, watch, and wait for an answer from your Self.
Or so I believe at the present time. Just sayin.... |
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Reply from en-Joy
Feb.14.2012
03:28PM EDT
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Quote: " Quote: "Quote: "The spirit of meditation is 'Watch, it will come.' But if you tell that to a non-meditator they'll think otherwise because they just don't have any sense in the notion 'It arrives as it will.' Something worries them about that.
I think this is why mindfulness is so important because you're waiting for 'the thing' to happen through meditation or spontaneity that until it does you'll be consciously living with care."
.........
Just watch, without waiting."
.........
To sit is neither to watch nor wait, nor anything at all. Motionless, silent, blank.
To meditate is to focus on one thing, watch, and wait for an answer from your Self.
Or so I believe at the present time. Just sayin.... "
.........
Just leave your belief there. |
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Reply from drawfd
Feb.14.2012
09:07PM EDT
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Hello,
I really enjoyed your post. I enjoyed it so much that I just made a membership with the forum. I am new on here.
I just wanted to say that I always wondered about that with depression. I read other articles and things online on how abuse really can contribute too it. Sadly, I was verbally abused as a kid and growing up. I really do feel your pains. and unfortunately, I have to take depression medicine. It was very severe... it really is the worst feeling in the world. It's something that thoughts can not control it.. it really is out of a person's control.
But, however, life is the best its been now!! I have been having such a breakthru with zen and understanding. Life has been like a rebirth. and I understand meditation so much more.
I am lucky I can enter these states like while driving when completely no thoughts raise up. Its such an amazing feeling, the best in the world. I hope to talk more with u about it and others on here. its been such a hard path but im starting to grasp the inner peace and pure bliss of it.
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Reply from justin
Feb.15.2012
10:37AM EDT
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nice, |
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Reply from suchness`
Feb.15.2012
01:37PM EDT
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Quote: "Hello,
I really enjoyed your post. I enjoyed it so much that I just made a membership with the forum. I am new on here.
I just wanted to say that I always wondered about that with depression. I read other articles and things online on how abuse really can contribute too it. Sadly, I was verbally abused as a kid and growing up. I really do feel your pains. and unfortunately, I have to take depression medicine. It was very severe... it really is the worst feeling in the world. It's something that thoughts can not control it.. it really is out of a person's control.
But, however, life is the best its been now!! I have been having such a breakthru with zen and understanding. Life has been like a rebirth. and I understand meditation so much more.
I am lucky I can enter these states like while driving when completely no thoughts raise up. Its such an amazing feeling, the best in the world. I hope to talk more with u about it and others on here. its been such a hard path but im starting to grasp the inner peace and pure bliss of it.
"
........
welcome...
having shared some of that same verbal abuse as a young person from parenting, it can be a very emotional life drama. it seems, just to be aware of this is a lot of help, the harder part seems to not hold blame and understanding the abusers were doing the best they could with what was given them from their parenting. so moving from victim hood to ownership, owning it ourselves in the present and not looking back to keep the past drama alive, really helps psychologically. meditation-sitting (same and different) could possibly help to soften said depression to non medicated. studying zazen on this site, and other zazen practices from various teachers might be of great help. this site seems to be centered around what Chon Tri has to offer from a Vietnamese practice, while someone like Suzuki offers a Japanese practice, and others. good luck!
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Reply from drawfd
Feb.19.2012
01:12AM EDT
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yeah, that is soooo true!! u said it so perfect, that is such a great great truth about the present and understanding that.
just to own up to the past and understand that. that really is true liberation to allow the past to be and just to live in the moment. that is something I realized in myself is how much past hostility and drama and just thoughts of the past abuse I identified with. It really fueled my "ego" in a way. And just overall changed my perception on things.
Have you read "The power of now"? It changed my life... the first time to truly understand and to truly just observe my thoughts! it really sums up the mentality of zen. but it was such a break thru for me.. it was just like the first time to truly realize how much I identified with my thoughts.... I am sooo happy now and just feel blissful levels of peace for brief moments a day.
thanks man for the insight and response. I really like this forum
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Reply from Joe Chip
Feb.19.2012
09:00AM EDT
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The past is bang up to date. |
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Reply from shayne
Feb.19.2012
09:39AM EDT
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i always totally forget my past. i give people time to change. most dont. but some do. i forgive my past and others past. all is relative though. interesting as well.
take don for example.....hahahahhhah. just joking.
take me for example......hmmmmmm.......my poop stinks too so. haha.
i told a woman today.....sometimes you can be a very sweet person.
i added the sometimes. then we talked about how moody she was in the morning. haha. at least she admits to it. haha. |
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Reply from suchness`
Feb.19.2012
12:01PM EDT
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Quote: "yeah, that is soooo true!! u said it so perfect, that is such a great great truth about the present and understanding that.
just to own up to the past and understand that. that really is true liberation to allow the past to be and just to live in the moment. that is something I realized in myself is how much past hostility and drama and just thoughts of the past abuse I identified with. It really fueled my "ego" in a way. And just overall changed my perception on things.
Have you read "The power of now"? It changed my life... the first time to truly understand and to truly just observe my thoughts! it really sums up the mentality of zen. but it was such a break thru for me.. it was just like the first time to truly realize how much I identified with my thoughts.... I am sooo happy now and just feel blissful levels of peace for brief moments a day.
thanks man for the insight and response. I really like this forum
"
.........
It seems past karmas, good and bad (perspective), can be inspiring, lesson and liberation driven. When it seems rather dark and overwhelming, if we can really go deep into that pain and embrace the wounds, accepting some responsibility without taking on self guilt and shame, there can be real healing there. It seems to help if we try to stay the middle road of what seems good or what seems bad, and not get caught up in the feelings we have arrived at, or not getting our hopes to high or low, keeping emotions and feeling checked at the door :), and just stay in the moment and witness, just observe self and other, just be with that, without the mind chatter (monkey mind), just be with our breath.
It could be said, in that light, the forum is what you/we make it, depending on our personal feelings and emotions of that day. It could look a little dark or rather bright, but by not getting caught up in choosing or judgement and just observing and going with that, it could tell us (the forum) more about where we are in that moment and some lesson there in not deciding if it is good or bad. No to high not to low, no expectations, with just observing 'our' take or our view that we are ‘projecting’ onto the site, and knowing it is about us and what we have projected in coming to some conclusion of good or bad, as it could be said, neither seems to be true, it just Is... no good, no bad; no high, no low.
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Reply from nowornever
Feb.19.2012
05:38PM EDT
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can mindfulness be every NOW? or are we sentenced to past and future fantansies? |
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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.19.2012
06:04PM EDT
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Always now, in every breath. Breathe in the light of love, breathe out to rise above suffering. |
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Reply from suchness`
Feb.19.2012
06:14PM EDT
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Quote: "Always now, in every breath. Breathe in the light of love, breathe out to rise above suffering.
"
.........
seemingly, in every breath with intention, is always now, breathing in the light of love and breathing out to rise above suffering.
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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.19.2012
06:48PM EDT
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Light can even be heard. For within the now it is heard, in the chirp chirp of an outside bird. |
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Reply from suchness`
Feb.19.2012
10:38PM EDT
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Quote: "Light can even be heard. For within the now it is heard, in the chirp chirp of an outside bird.
"
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the chirp chirp of this bird is done for now, it seems. not seen, not heard but never forgotten from this moment forward in the incessant presence of being. chirp chirp to you!
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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.19.2012
10:46PM EDT
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now it's dark out, beautiful clear sky with lots of beautiful stars, and the coyotes are howling, they can see at night, stars too on paths of light
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Reply from Woodsman
Feb.19.2012
11:36PM EDT
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i'm gonna go howl while asleep, and be a star at night
my dogs will let me know if I'm any good, but hopefully not while I'm asleep
Woooff.... to bed
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Reply from Joe Chip
Feb.21.2012
08:06AM EDT
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Now, future, past, today, tomorrow and yesterday are different names for the same illusion. |
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Reply from suchness`
Feb.21.2012
01:30PM EDT
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Quote: "Now, future, past, today, tomorrow and yesterday are different names for the same illusion."
.........
is now, presence, an illusion?
are not past and future, now?
is there any where to have been or to have to go, to be here?
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Reply from redic002
Jan.25.2013
03:05AM EDT
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I have done a 4 wk course, for me it helped quite my mind but was less than useless for pain.
Sorry not more positive
Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk...
[url=http://www.ascotbooks.com.au/mindfulness-meditation-audiobook-cd/index.php]mindfulness[/url] |
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Reply from Avisitor
Jan.25.2013
12:47PM EDT
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No, no difference between Zen and mindfulness
Every moment Zen ... mindfulness ... hahaha
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.26.2013
03:21AM EDT
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When you can stop thinking it is only mindfulness because when you are thinking you are always absent minded.
Thinking or your thoughts are nothing but memory of the past and imagination of the future where it is never reality. The moment thought is absent then there is the right moment the now which you can never think of. The Now is never your thoughts. The Now is the only reality which is beyond thoughts.
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Reply from Avisitor
Jan.26.2013
09:35AM EDT
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You need to stop and see reason.
You have confused stop thinking with wisdom.
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.26.2013
04:49PM EDT
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Zen and Mindfullness are incredibly similar, except one is sitting and one is doing. The experience is similar the obstacles differ. Also keep in mind that the word mindfulness is becoming generic and washed out by social use. The term is used in ways not used in the mental discipline taught in various Buddhist schools, and even among the schools themselves.
Meditation has been a huge success in terms of alleviating symptoms of depression, yet this was not why I started meditation. I do not advise listening to the formulated notions of people who have never suffered depression or have not had an education on the subject. This entails educating yourself. A pair of corrective lenses are never thought of as a weakness in human character, but depression often caries this taboo and the judgemental attitudes of those who have preconceived ideas.
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Reply from BlankName
Jan.26.2013
07:29PM EDT
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Because the Universe is Breath,
I am truly Alive.
Peace be with you _/\_ |
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.26.2013
07:49PM EDT
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Quote: "You need to stop and see reason.
You have confused stop thinking with wisdom.
"
.........
"You need to stop and see reason."
-You are attached to the view point of another person here.
"You have confused stop thinking with wisdom."
-The ability to engage the mind of non-conceptual thought is part of the process of wisdom. Yet from here thoughts are engaged by conscious will rather than by the tedium of momentum. The difficulty arises by the attempt to stop thought and mental construct. Thought, emotion, mental construct of all kind stem from a perspective or frame of reference. If you observe your emotions and your thoughts, they will lead you to the root frame of reference you cling to. And widen an opening to let them go.
To state that one must simply stop thinking is the same as telling a smoker to stop smoking. If a person is mindful of smoking, and the cause/ effect momentum it induces, there is a greater chance of cessation. I do not mean to suggest here that thought is to be revoked entirely. When we learn to aquire or engage the non-linear experience of natural mind, this enhances our ability to think wisely, rather than to be ridden by our thoughts.
So you see, Leoj is correct and then, he is not. It is this way with a great many things. And this seems pradoxical only to a mind that can not accept duality as delusion.
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.26.2013
08:47PM EDT
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So what will you tell an smoker if you want him to stop smoking.. tell him to stop smoking...lol |
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.26.2013
08:48PM EDT
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It is the same thing when you want people to stop thinking.. tell them to stop thinking...lol.. what else.. tell it straight.. |
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.27.2013
12:09AM EDT
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Quote: "So what will you tell an smoker if you want him to stop smoking.. tell him to stop smoking...lol
"
.........
That is why you fail to convey our message. You do not tell a smoker to stop smoking. Instead yo suggest they smoke mindfully.
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.27.2013
12:17AM EDT
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You can not just stop thinking. This is very much a concept for you. If it were not, you would know this. You are very in love with this concept, but that is okay, eventually you will let it go, it is inevitable. Most people re not going to bother telling you this. Let the mad hatter be. Eventually you will see if you practice. Oh and it took me almost ten years to break though this ego pedestal so I get it. |
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.27.2013
02:32AM EDT
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I think that is what I call very hard headed...lol |
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.27.2013
04:53AM EDT
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Quote: "I think that is what I call very hard headed...lol
"
......... yes a Very hard head! :-)
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Reply from esoteric
Jan.27.2013
05:16AM EDT
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Quote: "You can not just stop thinking. This is very much a concept for you. If it were not, you would know this. You are very in love with this concept, but that is okay, eventually you will let it go, it is inevitable. Most people re not going to bother telling you this. Let the mad hatter be. Eventually you will see if you practice. Oh and it took me almost ten years to break though this ego pedestal so I get it. "
.........
Why can't you just stop thinking?
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Reply from football
Jan.27.2013
07:52AM EDT
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to sit_teh
sit_teh, you sound like you have some wisdom.
What is the importance of us for you? |
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Reply from Avisitor
Jan.27.2013
10:17AM EDT
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Quote: "Quote: "You need to stop and see reason.
You have confused stop thinking with wisdom.
"
.........
"You need to stop and see reason."
-You are attached to the view point of another person here.
"You have confused stop thinking with wisdom."
-The ability to engage the mind of non-conceptual thought is part of the process of wisdom. Yet from here thoughts are engaged by conscious will rather than by the tedium of momentum. The difficulty arises by the attempt to stop thought and mental construct. Thought, emotion, mental construct of all kind stem from a perspective or frame of reference. If you observe your emotions and your thoughts, they will lead you to the root frame of reference you cling to. And widen an opening to let them go.
To state that one must simply stop thinking is the same as telling a smoker to stop smoking. If a person is mindful of smoking, and the cause/ effect momentum it induces, there is a greater chance of cessation. I do not mean to suggest here that thought is to be revoked entirely. When we learn to aquire or engage the non-linear experience of natural mind, this enhances our ability to think wisely, rather than to be ridden by our thoughts.
So you see, Leoj is correct and then, he is not. It is this way with a great many things. And this seems pradoxical only to a mind that can not accept duality as delusion.
"
.........
Please don't take my words out of context or the spirit of the intent of which they were written.
Thanks for the clarification of Leo's words. However, I doubt if he understood the truth and paradox.
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Reply from Avisitor
Jan.27.2013
10:25AM EDT
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Quote: "Quote: "You can not just stop thinking. This is very much a concept for you. If it were not, you would know this. You are very in love with this concept, but that is okay, eventually you will let it go, it is inevitable. Most people re not going to bother telling you this. Let the mad hatter be. Eventually you will see if you practice. Oh and it took me almost ten years to break though this ego pedestal so I get it. "
.........
Why can't you just stop thinking?
"
.........
Try and you will see why.
The effects of which perpetuate this illusion
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.27.2013
02:51PM EDT
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Avisitor I am honesty and sincerely sharing your words as my frame of reference has interpreted them. This is not a willful alteration of your meaning. It is difficult to find the nonadherent perspective, yet if I am willing to engage my attachment diretly it can and does isolate where and what exactly my ego is trying to stand on today. No harm is meant and I greatly appreciate your indulgence. Leoj is one of my favorite agitators of my ego. My ego hides safely under the sand and then Leoj says something and voila, I see it move! Its like mowing the yard and when you turn around five new weeds have sprung up, and a cartoon look of discouragement appears on my face as I once again, continue to practice. |
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Reply from BlankName
Jan.27.2013
04:18PM EDT
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Quote: " to sit_teh
sit_teh, you sound like you have some wisdom.
What is the importance of us for you? "
.........
We all have something in common, call it meditation or awareness. Nothing special, I'm kind of a shut in because of my anxiety. The forum is a kind of "meditation room" to me. I like the Good talks. |
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Reply from Avisitor
Jan.27.2013
06:25PM EDT
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Quote: "Avisitor I am honesty and sincerely sharing your words as my frame of reference has interpreted them. This is not a willful alteration of your meaning. It is difficult to find the nonadherent perspective, yet if I am willing to engage my attachment diretly it can and does isolate where and what exactly my ego is trying to stand on today. No harm is meant and I greatly appreciate your indulgence. Leoj is one of my favorite agitators of my ego. My ego hides safely under the sand and then Leoj says something and voila, I see it move! Its like mowing the yard and when you turn around five new weeds have sprung up, and a cartoon look of discouragement appears on my face as I once again, continue to practice."
.........
I appreciate your wisdom and ability to shed light upon posts written here with your frame of reference.
However, the context and spirit of the words are its own frame of reference too.
Remember that words are to be said in the manner that can be understood by those listening to them.
Joshua in answering Mu to the question of whether a dog has Buddha nature ....
We need to understand the right answer and why his answer is correct also ....
Not to just correct Joshua answer. Also, it presents a Koan in learning ...
like that of the one hand clap ...
Now after having written so much about this, I am truly regretting having said anything.
And yes, my frame of reference is also subject to having a disclaimer of being corrected when my frame of reference changes.
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.27.2013
06:33PM EDT
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Yeah you'd better keep quiet until you have really solved Mu..lol ... tasted Mu... imbibed Mu...lol |
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Reply from Avisitor
Jan.27.2013
06:38PM EDT
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Quote: "Yeah you'd better keep quiet until you have really solved Mu..lol ... tasted Mu... imbibed Mu...lol
"
.........
Aren't you the one who said you can't help others unless you can help yourself????
Please show me Mu .... hahahaha
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Reply from boymonk
Jan.27.2013
07:45PM EDT
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I tasted Mu once . . . once |
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.27.2013
08:33PM EDT
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Quote: "I tasted Mu once . . . once
"
.........
Mu GU Gai Pan? |
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Reply from boymonk
Jan.27.2013
08:55PM EDT
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Pooh. |
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.27.2013
09:02PM EDT
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Quote: "Pooh.
"
.........
Hmmm...I have never had Pooh Too! |
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Reply from esoteric
Jan.28.2013
12:40AM EDT
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Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "You can not just stop thinking. This is very much a concept for you. If it were not, you would know this. You are very in love with this concept, but that is okay, eventually you will let it go, it is inevitable. Most people re not going to bother telling you this. Let the mad hatter be. Eventually you will see if you practice. Oh and it took me almost ten years to break though this ego pedestal so I get it. "
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Why can't you just stop thinking?
"
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Try and you will see why.
The effects of which perpetuate this illusion
"
.........
I was asking Riverstone why someone can't just stop thinking. But you seem to think that too. I don't have a problem with stopping thinking, so I don't see why. When I think, I think. When I don't, I don't. When not thinking, I just see, without any "why". So, what keeps you from stopping thinking?
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.28.2013
02:31AM EDT
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I can stop thinking too.....yet thinking happens eventually...and this is okay....
When I try to do art work it is contrived. When I let go to the process it is natural. There is contrived not thinking, and there is not thinking which occurs as all things settle, like muddy water which stands and is then clear as the mud settles. The slightest movement can disturb the mud and this is okay, just be still again.
What is impossible is to command not thinking to occur and when not thinking occurs, to expect it to be everlasting. Thinking itself is not the problem, it is only a symptom of a frame of reference. When the clarity occurs one can see the frame of reference responsible for all these thoughts. Beyond the frame of reference is enlightenment. The nonlinear, natural mind that feeds wisdom to the linear, thinking mind, rather than blindly reacting t an adopted intractable frame of reference. So the enlightened mind uses thought rather than be used by thought. It is all a process, not a sustained lack of thinking. |
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.28.2013
02:37AM EDT
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Leoj seems to herald an idea of a mind which never thinks, ever and that this is enlightenment. I reject this as a conceptual idea born in duality. The non thinking mind and the thinking mind shake hands, they are not in battle. Yin and Yang. |
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.28.2013
02:54AM EDT
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Quote: "I can stop thinking too.....yet thinking happens eventually...and this is okay....
When I try to do art work it is contrived. When I let go to the process it is natural. There is contrived not thinking, and there is not thinking which occurs as all things settle, like muddy water which stands and is then clear as the mud settles. The slightest movement can disturb the mud and this is okay, just be still again.
What is impossible is to command not thinking to occur and when not thinking occurs, to expect it to be everlasting. Thinking itself is not the problem, it is only a symptom of a frame of reference. When the clarity occurs one can see the frame of reference responsible for all these thoughts. Beyond the frame of reference is enlightenment. The nonlinear, natural mind that feeds wisdom to the linear, thinking mind, rather than blindly reacting t an adopted intractable frame of reference. So the enlightened mind uses thought rather than be used by thought. It is all a process, not a sustained lack of thinking."
.........
Technically nothing is impossible, only more or less improbable. Language is limited and saying anything is impossible is standing on a ground of being so please ignore that distraction and try to hear that I am describing a process rather than absolute states.
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.28.2013
03:49AM EDT
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Oh and just to clarify all this talk is not Zen. Not what I say or anyone says. It is all the finger pointing at the moon. Zen is in the seat of meditation and the action of mind fullness. Of which if you do neither, all your experience of such are simply a collection of ideas, uninformed ideas. |
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Reply from Avisitor
Jan.28.2013
08:51AM EDT
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Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "You can not just stop thinking. This is very much a concept for you. If it were not, you would know this. You are very in love with this concept, but that is okay, eventually you will let it go, it is inevitable. Most people re not going to bother telling you this. Let the mad hatter be. Eventually you will see if you practice. Oh and it took me almost ten years to break though this ego pedestal so I get it. "
.........
Why can't you just stop thinking?
"
.........
Try and you will see why.
The effects of which perpetuate this illusion
"
.........
I was asking Riverstone why someone can't just stop thinking. But you seem to think that too. I don't have a problem with stopping thinking, so I don't see why. When I think, I think. When I don't, I don't. When not thinking, I just see, without any "why". So, what keeps you from stopping thinking?
"
.........
Are you actually stopping thoughts from occurring??
Or are you just stopping the words??
Thought existed before language
Its impetus comes from a much deeper place than this ordinary frame.
So, just stopping words from forming doesn't stop thoughts
and enlightenment isn't stopping words
But, you are the master of your world and so it is written ... so shall it be ...
you are what you claim .... hahahaha
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Reply from boymonk
Jan.28.2013
01:41PM EDT
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Quote: "I can stop thinking too....."
.........
I was thinking you might try starting, if you know what I mean.
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