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  One day a monk paid a visit to Tinh Khong (1091-1170), a Vietnamese Zen master,
who was of the tenth generation of Vo Ngon Thong lineage, and asked:
-From old days it was talked about "direct pointing", what does that mean?
The... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: ZEN FLESH ZEN BONES
vertical line Posted on Jul.12.2012 @ 04:44PM EDT by cambria129
I just picked up this book like a few of you have recommended. I started the story part of the book, where they give life experiences which you can learn from. First one was about the cup full of tea relating it to the student, if you are full of your on opinions how can I yeah you zen. So clear you're mind and try not to be so opinionated. Become open minded. The second story was about the drunkard and the gambler. The teacher stayed the night in the house and meditated by the drunkard all night. When the drunkard had awakened he was still meditating and the drunkard was embarrassed to behave in such matter in front of a noble teacher. He then helped Gudo carry his things for many miles never wanting to go back. Now maybe I am a full cup of tea and reading wayyyyy to into this but if he was a drunkard and a gambler and was never helping his family and never coming home how would following a guy for the rest of your life help your family? Or is it more as when you take a step to commit yourself to changing for the better never give up and never go back like he has done.?
Just a little confused, and trying to make sure I am in the right mind set for this all. Thankyou if you can help!
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Reply from Woodsman
Jul.12.2012
09:14PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line One asks the questions within one's self as leader and follower in, or out, of time, money, luck, food, shelter, celebration, wit, harmony, veracity, stillness, guilt... the answers come in every moment of perception, freely. 
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Reply from Avisitor
Jul.12.2012
09:31PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line The idea is that Zen or Buddhism is a higher calling.
But none of that is important.
Like I said, you need to learn about Buddha's life story.
About his struggle to find the answer to the suffering he saw.
About his enlightenment that he found.
And, learn about the four noble truths.
The eightfold path to follow

Then forget about all you have learned.
Go practice meditation
Practice practice practice
Practice like your life depends on it
when  you see your true nature, you have all the answers to your questions

If you need to learn more then do so
If you need a teacher then find one
Then you will have the essence of Buddhism
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 139335
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Reply from cambria129
Jul.12.2012
10:26PM EDT 
vertical line Okay what would you recommend that I read of Buddha so I can get his life story and the four noble truths,because to be honest I don't know what to read there is so much stuff to sift through. Ill try and read that real quick and then go back to reread the zen flesh zen bones and try to apply it to what I have read. so where do you recommend I start?
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Reply from Avisitor
Jul.12.2012
10:41PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Okay what would you recommend that I read of Buddha so I can get his life story and the four noble truths,because to be honest I don't know what to read there is so much stuff to sift through. Ill try and read that real quick and then go back to reread the zen flesh zen bones and try to apply it to what I have read. so where do you recommend I start?
"
.........

Go to pbs.org and search for Buddha's biography or
http://video.pbs.org/video/1461557530

Then you can search on the internet "four noble truths"
and choose one which will tell you about the four noble truths
And the eightfold path.

After that is done, you can check here on meditation practices
Zazen meditation ... then practice practice practice
Release the silence ... turn off the internal dialogue (whatever yo want to call it)

Then, if you need to learn more then do so
If you need a teacher then find one
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Reply from Avisitor
Jul.12.2012
10:43PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Heck, you can search here on Zen guide
Principles ... four noble truths, eightfold path ... etc.
Then go to practice ... then practice ...lol
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Reply from Woodsman
Jul.12.2012
10:43PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Joseph Campbell's - The Hero With A Thousand Faces
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Reply from simple
Jul.13.2012
04:09AM EDT 
Email simple
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Dear cambria129, you are in the wrong mind set.

At the first part with the stories the book is testing you how much you love zen.If it is ok, it will let you pass to other stages.Calmly read the whole.I believe you will find yourself somewhere in the book.And then ask yourself 'Where can I start?'

Only then we can help you.

Dont forget the persons written in the book are real zen masters.

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Reply from Avisitor
Jul.14.2012
12:21AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line If you want to see the story of Buddha on You tube.com then ..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFbjDcz_CbU&feature=related
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Reply from starduster
Jul.14.2012
06:29PM EDT 
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Quote: "The idea is that Zen or Buddhism is a higher calling.
But none of that is important.
Like I said, you need to learn about Buddha's life story.
About his struggle to find the answer to the suffering he saw.
About his enlightenment that he found.
And, learn about the four noble truths.
The eightfold path to follow

Then forget about all you have learned.
Go practice meditation
Practice practice practice
Practice like your life depends on it
when  you see your true nature, you have all the answers to your questions

If you need to learn more then do so
If you need a teacher then find one
Then you will have the essence of Buddhism
"
.........

Buddhism may be a higher calling, but Zen isnt.  Zen is the concept of nothingness.

Not all Buddhists are Zen Buddhists, and Zen is not limited to Buddhism, at least not once you understand it.  It can be applied to anything, even Satanism if that is your choice.  In that vein, I tend to think of myself as a Zen Christian, or maybe a Zen Transcendentalist.

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Reply from leoj99
Jul.14.2012
07:24PM EDT 
vertical line I think Zen has no concept of anything or no-thing.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 139383
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Reply from Avisitor
Jul.15.2012
01:02AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "

Buddhism may be a higher calling, but Zen isnt.  Zen is the concept of nothingness.


Not all Buddhists are Zen Buddhists, and Zen is not limited to Buddhism, at least not once you understand it.  It can be applied to anything, even Satanism if that is your choice.  In that vein, I tend to think of myself as a Zen Christian, or maybe a Zen Transcendentalist.

"
.........

I'm sorry for my error. My idea was to rid him of his desire for an answer. My haste has been in error. There is so much stuff about Buddhism today that even Buddha doesn't know ... lol.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.15.2012
05:42AM EDT 
vertical line All apple gratefully received.

Biographical information is correct as of the broadcast date and time stamp noted above.
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Reply from Avisitor
Jul.18.2012
01:40PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line If one wants to learn about Buddhism then there is much to learn
There are many books and many lineages of Buddhism
But, reading books and learning about one lineage or another won't give you the essence of Buddhism.
Reading for reading sake??
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 139603
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Reply from justin
Jul.27.2012
03:00AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line It is about letting go, realizing that what was important is in fact un- consequential and illusionary.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 139895
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Reply from justin
Jul.27.2012
03:03AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "It is about letting go, realizing that what was important is in fact un- consequential and illusionary.
"
.........

all about cutting of the root, the way to do this is to honestly pay attention to everything.
and then the illusions just fall away by themselves. with out effort, you just loose interest.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.27.2012
06:52AM EDT 
vertical line Alfie?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 139901
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.27.2012
07:26AM EDT 
vertical line Zen flesh, zen bones, zen corpse.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 139909
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.27.2012
08:10AM EDT 
vertical line What's it all about?
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.27.2012
08:23AM EDT 
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Zen flash, zen phones.





Hello?
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Reply from so_teh
Jul.27.2012
10:29AM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Good Morn..
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 139914
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Reply from so_teh
Jul.27.2012
10:36AM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Temple of Zen.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 139915
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.27.2012
01:34PM EDT 
vertical line Good marrow.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 139923
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.28.2012
10:49AM EDT 
vertical line Chlorophyll, it's everywhere, it's all about - chlorophyll.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 139941
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Reply from leoj99
Jul.28.2012
11:35AM EDT 
vertical line Zen is a practice to get rid of all concepts, ideas and thoughts.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 139948
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.28.2012
11:44AM EDT 
vertical line Concept-Zen.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 139949
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.28.2012
12:04PM EDT 
vertical line You know, I don't know.
I don't know what Zen is.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 139952
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Reply from Avisitor
Jul.28.2012
02:52PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Zen is a practice to get rid of all concepts, ideas and thoughts. "
.........
No it is not.
Zazen is a practice to increase your awareness
The clarity one finds in Zazen is cultivated in daily life.
Not to get rid of ideas, concepts and thoughts.
Zen should compliment your life not destroy it.
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Reply from leoj99
Jul.28.2012
03:10PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Zen is a practice to get rid of all concepts, ideas and thoughts. "
.........
No it is not.
Zazen is a practice to increase your awareness
The clarity one finds in Zazen is cultivated in daily life.
Not to get rid of ideas, concepts and thoughts.
Zen should compliment your life not destroy it.
"
.....

So what Spiritual concepts and ideas do you have that is good for you?
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.28.2012
03:54PM EDT 
vertical line I just examined a fundamentally similar reaction patterning.
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Reply from leoj99
Jul.28.2012
04:20PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Zen is a practice to get rid of all concepts, ideas and thoughts. "
.........
No it is not.
Zazen is a practice to increase your awareness
The clarity one finds in Zazen is cultivated in daily life.
Not to get rid of ideas, concepts and thoughts.
Zen should compliment your life not destroy it.
"
.........

You cannot never destroy something real.
You can only destroy your illusions.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 139963
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Reply from Avisitor
Jul.28.2012
07:54PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Zen is a practice to get rid of all concepts, ideas and thoughts. "
.........
No it is not.
Zazen is a practice to increase your awareness
The clarity one finds in Zazen is cultivated in daily life.
Not to get rid of ideas, concepts and thoughts.
Zen should compliment your life not destroy it.
"
.........

You cannot never destroy something real.
You can only destroy your illusions.
"
.........

Illusions are not destroyed.
Merely shown for what they are.
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Reply from leoj99
Jul.29.2012
04:11AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Zen is a practice to get rid of all concepts, ideas and thoughts. "
.........
No it is not.
Zazen is a practice to increase your awareness
The clarity one finds in Zazen is cultivated in daily life.
Not to get rid of ideas, concepts and thoughts.
Zen should compliment your life not destroy it.
"
.........

You cannot never destroy something real.
You can only destroy your illusions.
"
.........

Illusions are not destroyed.
Merely shown for what they are.
"
.........

If you realize that they are only illusions the they evaporate like a ghost .. and in that sense evaporation is being destroyed...LOL
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Reply from leoj99
Jul.29.2012
04:13AM EDT 
vertical line Most of the time being too smart is not Zen. You need to be stupid most of the time.
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Reply from starduster
Jul.29.2012
05:07AM EDT 
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Quote: "Most of the time being too smart is not Zen. You need to be stupid most of the time. "
.........

Being Zen is just being.

Or as is said in Zen, *The way to do is to be*.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.29.2012
07:07AM EDT 
vertical line Ergo, ego guides to Ego-Zen.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.29.2012
07:36AM EDT 
vertical line Neither smart nor stupid - you need to know yourself, you need to realise who you really are.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140001
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Reply from Avisitor
Jul.29.2012
01:18PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Zen is a practice to get rid of all concepts, ideas and thoughts. "
.........
No it is not.
Zazen is a practice to increase your awareness
The clarity one finds in Zazen is cultivated in daily life.
Not to get rid of ideas, concepts and thoughts.
Zen should compliment your life not destroy it.
"
.........

You cannot never destroy something real.
You can only destroy your illusions.
"
.........

Illusions are not destroyed.
Merely shown for what they are.
"
.........

If you realize that they are only illusions the they evaporate like a ghost .. and in that sense evaporation is being destroyed...LOL
"
.........
The truth comes out and the illusion loses it power
But, it isn't destroyed. You still live in this world.
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Reply from Avisitor
Jul.29.2012
02:39PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Most of the time being too smart is not Zen. You need to be stupid most of the time. "
.........
Letting others believe that Zen is teaching one how to become stupid .. well, it doesn't do justice to Zen and may have a negative connotation that discourages other from Zen. However right you may be in your reply, I would not wish to reply in the positive to Zen is becoming stupid. I apologize for my rudeness. Truly sorry.
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Reply from leoj99
Jul.29.2012
06:41PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Most of the time being too smart is not Zen. You need to be stupid most of the time. "
.........
Letting others believe that Zen is teaching one how to become stupid .. well, it doesn't do justice to Zen and may have a negative connotation that discourages other from Zen. However right you may be in your reply, I would not wish to reply in the positive to Zen is becoming stupid. I apologize for my rudeness. Truly sorry.
"
.........

It seems to me you are either afraid of becoming stupid or you don't want to be stupid. But do you think you are wise?
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Reply from Avisitor
Jul.29.2012
07:45PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Most of the time being too smart is not Zen. You need to be stupid most of the time. "
.........
Letting others believe that Zen is teaching one how to become stupid .. well, it doesn't do justice to Zen and may have a negative connotation that discourages other from Zen. However right you may be in your reply, I would not wish to reply in the positive to Zen is becoming stupid. I apologize for my rudeness. Truly sorry.
"
.........

It seems to me you are either afraid of becoming stupid or you don't want to be stupid. But do you think you are wise?
"
.........

I neither embrace it nor do I fear it.
No, never. Forgive me if that is what you think I am trying to do.
I'm too short to see above your wisdom.
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Reply from justin
Jul.30.2012
04:10AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Intelligence (which nce personalized and agknowledged is a impediment to practice. The more learning (and therefore perceived intelligence one has the harder it Is to topple those incorrect ideas.

If the cup is already full how can u add to it?

Stupidity is just a lack of structured thinking processes and therefore I totally agree. Zen is all about getting rid of the excess (in this case learning and perceived acquisition of said)

When someone needs to go to toilet, they go there is no need for drawn out discussion, or debate. Or thought.

When we name things or decide opinions on them these are not seeing things as they are this is seeing things as I decide I want them to be. this is why stupidity is zen an absence of opinions and preconceived ideas, just things as they are. So simple a simpleton could do it :)
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Reply from justin
Jul.30.2012
04:13AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line If it Is an afront or insult to zen by suggesting it is stupidity, who is insulted? Where does the affront come from and reside ?
It certainly does not reside in zen, zen couldn't give a rats what anyone says bout it.
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Reply from starduster
Jul.30.2012
04:46AM EDT 
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Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Zen is a practice to get rid of all concepts, ideas and thoughts. "
.........
No it is not.
Zazen is a practice to increase your awareness
The clarity one finds in Zazen is cultivated in daily life.
Not to get rid of ideas, concepts and thoughts.
Zen should compliment your life not destroy it.
"
.........

You cannot never destroy something real.
You can only destroy your illusions.
"
.........

Illusions are not destroyed.
Merely shown for what they are.
"
.........

If you realize that they are only illusions the they evaporate like a ghost .. and in that sense evaporation is being destroyed...LOL
"
.........
The truth comes out and the illusion loses it power
But, it isn't destroyed. You still live in this world.
"
.........

Even the lack of illusion is an illusion.

Nothing really is or isnt.

Delusion on the other hand is self-deception.

Its all illusion, except that which you believe in, which is delusion.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.30.2012
07:32AM EDT 
vertical line Zen and the art of ignorance.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140061
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Reply from LeonBasin
Jul.30.2012
08:11PM EDT 
Email LeonBasin
vertical line Quote: "Okay what would you recommend that I read of Buddha so I can get his life story and the four noble truths,because to be honest I don't know what to read there is so much stuff to sift through. Ill try and read that real quick and then go back to reread the zen flesh zen bones and try to apply it to what I have read. so where do you recommend I start?
"
.........

There's a few good documentaries as well!
http://www.topdocumnetaryfilms.com and search for Buddhism.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.30.2012
08:40PM EDT 
vertical line Education and learning is not equal to intelligence.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140071
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Reply from Avisitor
Jul.31.2012
12:49AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "If it Is an afront or insult to zen by suggesting it is stupidity, who is insulted? Where does the affront come from and reside ?
It certainly does not reside in zen, zen couldn't give a rats what anyone says bout it.
"
.........
A reputation doesn't reside with the thing or person but reflects that thing or person.
Whether the reflection is true or not depends on where you are when you see the view point.
Even though phrases like "kill the Buddha" or "Zen is becoming stupid" may be correct, I don't believe it should be thrown out to novices who don't know what it means.
Cause do you really want someone to go kill another person or bang ones head until stupid??
Only suggesting that there is a right time to reveal such things along the path.

Well, I know that no one could gives a rats a..s what anyone says.
And, my two cents was worth even less. Thanks for the lending the ear.
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Reply from leoj99
Jul.31.2012
01:31AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Intelligence (which nce personalized and agknowledged is a impediment to practice. The more learning (and therefore perceived intelligence one has the harder it Is to topple those incorrect ideas.

If the cup is already full how can u add to it?

Stupidity is just a lack of structured thinking processes and therefore I totally agree. Zen is all about getting rid of the excess (in this case learning and perceived acquisition of said)

When someone needs to go to toilet, they go there is no need for drawn out discussion, or debate. Or thought.

When we name things or decide opinions on them these are not seeing things as they are this is seeing things as I decide I want them to be. this is why stupidity is zen an absence of opinions and preconceived ideas, just things as they are. So simple a simpleton could do it :)
"
.........

Exactly.. right on target. Intelligence is nothing but thinking and thinking is not it.
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Reply from leoj99
Jul.31.2012
01:33AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "If it Is an afront or insult to zen by suggesting it is stupidity, who is insulted? Where does the affront come from and reside ?
It certainly does not reside in zen, zen couldn't give a rats what anyone says bout it.
"
........

Only the enourmous Ego who is insulted.
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Reply from Avisitor
Jul.31.2012
01:44AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "If it Is an afront or insult to zen by suggesting it is stupidity, who is insulted? Where does the affront come from and reside ?
It certainly does not reside in zen, zen couldn't give a rats what anyone says bout it.
"
........

Only the enourmous Ego who is insulted.
"
.........
Who is the one being insulted?
Zen has no ego .. no place to have insult reside.

Again, the words lose their meaning
And, readers only read what they want to hear.

Thanks so much ... I'm going back to having my soup.
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Reply from starduster
Jul.31.2012
05:40AM EDT 
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Quote: "Zen and the art of ignorance."
.........

Exactly !!

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Reply from starduster
Jul.31.2012
05:46AM EDT 
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Quote: "Education and learning is not equal to intelligence.

"
.........

I have a high IQ (135), and about 20 yrs of education (but never finished the MBA),

and yet I miss the simplist things.

All last week on vacation I was trying to call an old friend for dinner and kept getting a message that the number was not accepting calls.  Then after I got home I looked at the text she had sent the number in and noticed that a zero with a slash through it had looked like an 8 and I had been calling the wrong number.

Was it really an accident, or were we just not supposed to go out to dinner ?  I dont know.  Just have to take things as they come, and go.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.31.2012
06:29AM EDT 
vertical line Training the intellect does not result in intelligence.

Nondoing refers to a specific form of intelligence.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.31.2012
06:35AM EDT 
vertical line Compassion acts through intelligence.  Compassion does not act through the intellect. 
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Reply from starduster
Jul.31.2012
11:04AM EDT 
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Quote: "Compassion acts through intelligence.  Compassion does not act through the intellect.  "
.........

Is there a difference between intelligence used in not doing and intellect used in doing?

Is it the same thing used in a different way, or are intelligence (right brain activity) and intellect (left brain activity) separate and mutually exclusive?

I really dont know.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.31.2012
11:17AM EDT 
vertical line Wow! Intelligence is the Tao.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.31.2012
11:37AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Intelligence (which nce personalized and agknowledged is a impediment to practice. The more learning (and therefore perceived intelligence one has the harder it Is to topple those incorrect ideas.

If the cup is already full how can u add to it?

Stupidity is just a lack of structured thinking processes and therefore I totally agree. Zen is all about getting rid of the excess (in this case learning and perceived acquisition of said)

When someone needs to go to toilet, they go there is no need for drawn out discussion, or debate. Or thought.

When we name things or decide opinions on them these are not seeing things as they are this is seeing things as I decide I want them to be. this is why stupidity is zen an absence of opinions and preconceived ideas, just things as they are. So simple a simpleton could do it :)
"
.........

Exactly.. right on target. Intelligence is nothing but thinking and thinking is not it.
"

.........

^
This is stupid.
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Reply from justin
Aug.01.2012
01:04AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "If it Is an afront or insult to zen by suggesting it is stupidity, who is insulted? Where does the affront come from and reside ?
It certainly does not reside in zen, zen couldn't give a rats what anyone says bout it.
"
.........
A reputation doesn't reside with the thing or person but reflects that thing or person.
Whether the reflection is true or not depends on where you are when you see the view point.
Even though phrases like "kill the Buddha" or "Zen is becoming stupid" may be correct, I don't believe it should be thrown out to novices who don't know what it means.
Cause do you really want someone to go kill another person or bang ones head until stupid??
Only suggesting that there is a right time to reveal such things along the path.

Well, I know that no one could gives a rats a..s what anyone says.
And, my two cents was worth even less. Thanks for the lending the ear.
"
.........


I pointing out Zen is not a thijnking thing, so it canot be affended, so the offense lays with the offended.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.01.2012
05:30AM EDT 
vertical line Verily, the very verily only 1s on this very forum who verily talk about their being no need for debate and/or thinking are the very only 1s having a very thinking debate, er because they seem to have confused intelleeeeeeect with eentelligance. First they would have you believe they have no doovde, then they have doovde, then they say they have no joovce luucuude tiv, then they do have joove luucuude tiv. But not ready for the huud. By their criteria shall ye know them and lo ! they shall be knowen.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.01.2012
05:42AM EDT 
vertical line Intelligence has nothing to do with head knowledge and information. Real intelligence is awareness. Real intelligence is innocent spontaneity.
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Reply from starduster
Aug.01.2012
08:04AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Intelligence has nothing to do with head knowledge and information. Real intelligence is awareness. Real intelligence is innocent spontaneity. "
.........

Okay thanks.

Sometimes when I am unsure, I say to myself *proceed with the innocence of a child*.

I ask myself what a small child would do in my circumstances,

and usually that is what I do, because it makes the most sense.

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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.01.2012
08:12AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "If it Is an afront or insult to zen by suggesting it is stupidity, who is insulted? Where does the affront come from and reside ?
It certainly does not reside in zen, zen couldn't give a rats what anyone says bout it.
"
.........
A reputation doesn't reside with the thing or person but reflects that thing or person.
Whether the reflection is true or not depends on where you are when you see the view point.
Even though phrases like "kill the Buddha" or "Zen is becoming stupid" may be correct, I don't believe it should be thrown out to novices who don't know what it means.
Cause do you really want someone to go kill another person or bang ones head until stupid??
Only suggesting that there is a right time to reveal such things along the path.

Well, I know that no one could gives a rats a..s what anyone says.
And, my two cents was worth even less. Thanks for the lending the ear.
"
.........


I pointing out Zen is not a thijnking thing, so it canot be affended, so the offense lays with the offended.
"
.........
There is no person or no thing to be offended.
My point was that to say "Zen is becoming stupid" (however right that statement may be) is not something that I would present to others who might wish to learn about Zen. My compassion says that there is so much more to Zen and others can benefit from it. Where is the wisdom in discouraging others from it?
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.01.2012
08:17AM EDT 
vertical line Who's pointing out?
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.01.2012
08:19AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Intelligence has nothing to do with head knowledge and information. Real intelligence is awareness. Real intelligence is innocent spontaneity. "
.........

Okay thanks.

Sometimes when I am unsure, I say to myself *proceed with the innocence of a child*.

I ask myself what a small child would do in my circumstances,

and usually that is what I do, because it makes the most sense.

"
.........

My seven year old child asked another child to cut the hair that was in her eyes.
That innocence of a child has now produce a bald strip right in the middle of the head.

Intelligence is being able to take the raw data and determine a procedure to produce the desired outcome from a situation. I'm thinking that I'm not that smart ... lol
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.01.2012
08:26AM EDT 
vertical line Intelligence is the response of present awareness, not a reaction out of past memories. Intellect functions like a computer running its own selfish programme - the intellect very often considering itself to be intelligent.
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Reply from floating_a
Aug.01.2012
05:13PM EDT 
vertical line Thankyou for everything, Joe Chip.

Namaste.
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Reply from justin
Aug.02.2012
12:39AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "If it Is an afront or insult to zen by suggesting it is stupidity, who is insulted? Where does the affront come from and reside ?
It certainly does not reside in zen, zen couldn't give a rats what anyone says bout it.
"
.........
A reputation doesn't reside with the thing or person but reflects that thing or person.
Whether the reflection is true or not depends on where you are when you see the view point.
Even though phrases like "kill the Buddha" or "Zen is becoming stupid" may be correct, I don't believe it should be thrown out to novices who don't know what it means.
Cause do you really want someone to go kill another person or bang ones head until stupid??
Only suggesting that there is a right time to reveal such things along the path.

Well, I know that no one could gives a rats a..s what anyone says.
And, my two cents was worth even less. Thanks for the lending the ear.
"
.........


I pointing out Zen is not a thijnking thing, so it canot be affended, so the offense lays with the offended.
"
.........
There is no person or no thing to be offended.
My point was that to say "Zen is becoming stupid" (however right that statement may be) is not something that I would present to others who might wish to learn about Zen. My compassion says that there is so much more to Zen and others can benefit from it. Where is the wisdom in discouraging others from it?
"
.........

we can leave the advertising and the prettying up of things to car sales yards. This is is truth. what better time to start learning truth then now?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140194
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Reply from justin
Aug.02.2012
12:42AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "If it Is an afront or insult to zen by suggesting it is stupidity, who is insulted? Where does the affront come from and reside ?
It certainly does not reside in zen, zen couldn't give a rats what anyone says bout it.
"
.........
A reputation doesn't reside with the thing or person but reflects that thing or person.
Whether the reflection is true or not depends on where you are when you see the view point.
Even though phrases like "kill the Buddha" or "Zen is becoming stupid" may be correct, I don't believe it should be thrown out to novices who don't know what it means.
Cause do you really want someone to go kill another person or bang ones head until stupid??
Only suggesting that there is a right time to reveal such things along the path.

Well, I know that no one could gives a rats a..s what anyone says.
And, my two cents was worth even less. Thanks for the lending the ear.
"
.........


I pointing out Zen is not a thijnking thing, so it canot be affended, so the offense lays with the offended.
"
.........
There is no person or no thing to be offended.
My point was that to say "Zen is becoming stupid" (however right that statement may be) is not something that I would present to others who might wish to learn about Zen. My compassion says that there is so much more to Zen and others can benefit from it. Where is the wisdom in discouraging others from it?
"
.........

we can leave the advertising and the prettying up of things to car sales yards. This is is truth. what better time to start learning truth then now?
"
.........

Zen is nothing it is just this (even this description falls short by a million miles), since the begining there has never been anything. Any idea you may have comes from your head, it is you trying to create sometyhing to give stability in this life. there is no stability there is no guarentees (apart from this body falling apart). Drop yourself intyo the abis and see.
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Reply from justin
Aug.02.2012
12:44AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line yes i know abis is spelt abyss joe
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Reply from justin
Aug.02.2012
12:44AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line i just dont care, 
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.02.2012
02:09AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Zen is nothing it is just this (even this description falls short by a million miles), since the begining there has never been anything. Any idea you may have comes from your head, it is you trying to create sometyhing to give stability in this life. there is no stability there is no guarentees (apart from this body falling apart). Drop yourself intyo the abis and see.
"
.........
Zen is nothing
Yet .. here we are.

Zen is nothing
Yet, there are monastery(s) dedicated to it.

Nvm ... two cents is worthless here.
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Reply from starduster
Aug.02.2012
04:34AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "If it Is an afront or insult to zen by suggesting it is stupidity, who is insulted? Where does the affront come from and reside ?
It certainly does not reside in zen, zen couldn't give a rats what anyone says bout it.
"
.........
A reputation doesn't reside with the thing or person but reflects that thing or person.
Whether the reflection is true or not depends on where you are when you see the view point.
Even though phrases like "kill the Buddha" or "Zen is becoming stupid" may be correct, I don't believe it should be thrown out to novices who don't know what it means.
Cause do you really want someone to go kill another person or bang ones head until stupid??
Only suggesting that there is a right time to reveal such things along the path.

Well, I know that no one could gives a rats a..s what anyone says.
And, my two cents was worth even less. Thanks for the lending the ear.
"
.........


I pointing out Zen is not a thijnking thing, so it canot be affended, so the offense lays with the offended.
"
.........
There is no person or no thing to be offended.
My point was that to say "Zen is becoming stupid" (however right that statement may be) is not something that I would present to others who might wish to learn about Zen. My compassion says that there is so much more to Zen and others can benefit from it. Where is the wisdom in discouraging others from it?
"
.........

we can leave the advertising and the prettying up of things to car sales yards. This is is truth. what better time to start learning truth then now?
"
.........

Zen is nothing it is just this (even this description falls short by a million miles), since the begining there has never been anything. Any idea you may have comes from your head, it is you trying to create sometyhing to give stability in this life. there is no stability there is no guarentees (apart from this body falling apart). Drop yourself intyo the abis and see.
"
.........

What is Zen but the realization and understanding of *Impermanence* ?

That applies to any religion, and even science.  As Einstein said, nothing really exists except the energy that everything is made of.

Depending on your own predilections, you may or may not believe that *Energy* to be conscious or aware on its own.  It doesnt matter.  The end result is the same, but there are no atheists in foxholes, to be sure.  With nothing to lose, and everything to gain, most people opt for God.

Im a Zen Christian, I suppose, because thats the way my astral travels have gone.  But to each their own.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.02.2012
07:05AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Thankyou for everything, Joe Chip.

Namaste.


"
.........

It's nothing.
Namaste.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.02.2012
07:07AM EDT 
vertical line Dustin doesn't care. He sticks savagely to himself.
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Reply from frozenaomi
Aug.02.2012
09:46AM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line I'm not sure Zen speeks to these massive concepts - to the nature of reality, particularly its origins or destiny. Zen only focuses on the moment. That does not necessarily mean that time does not exist, only that it isn't terribly important. There may be an origin and there may be a destiny but here and now there is the moment and the moment stands.

Leave it to religion and to science (although honestly I don't think there is a difference between the two) to figure out -why-. For me, what Zen does best is to figure out -what-.
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Reply from starduster
Aug.02.2012
10:47AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Quote: "Thankyou for everything, Joe Chip.

Namaste.


"
.........

It's nothing.
Namaste.
"
.........

Thats true

Namaste too

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Reply from starduster
Aug.02.2012
10:58AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "I'm not sure Zen speeks to these massive concepts - to the nature of reality, particularly its origins or destiny. Zen only focuses on the moment. That does not necessarily mean that time does not exist, only that it isn't terribly important. There may be an origin and there may be a destiny but here and now there is the moment and the moment stands.

Leave it to religion and to science (although honestly I don't think there is a difference between the two) to figure out -why-. For me, what Zen does best is to figure out -what-.
"
.........

We collect as many facts as we can in order to formulate our one opinion.

After nirvana, experiencing myself as one consciousness in the Void, and then experiencing myself (as myself) being in the Vold with that One being,

and then deciding on my own to accept as fact that One being, true or not,

I have found that that one *fact*, that It is being what It is being, and It will be what It will be, is the only fact I need.

It explains everything.

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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.02.2012
11:44AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "What is Zen but the realization and understanding of *Impermanence* ?

That applies to any religion, and even science.  As Einstein said, nothing really exists except the energy that everything is made of.

...
"
.........

If there is no everlasting soul upon which God to grant access to heaven or burn in hell
Then can there be a religion or God?
Buddhism teaches the three marks of existence and the 4 seals of Buddha Dharma.
Everything is impermanent, there is suffering and pain, non-self .. and Nirvana

If I realize there is no God, no soul, no self then would not all that exist really is emptiness.
From the emptiness ... everything springs forth.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140218
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Reply from frozenaomi
Aug.02.2012
12:10PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "I'm not sure Zen speeks to these massive concepts - to the nature of reality, particularly its origins or destiny. Zen only focuses on the moment. That does not necessarily mean that time does not exist, only that it isn't terribly important. There may be an origin and there may be a destiny but here and now there is the moment and the moment stands.

Leave it to religion and to science (although honestly I don't think there is a difference between the two) to figure out -why-. For me, what Zen does best is to figure out -what-.
"
.........

We collect as many facts as we can in order to formulate our one opinion.

After nirvana, experiencing myself as one consciousness in the Void, and then experiencing myself (as myself) being in the Vold with that One being,

and then deciding on my own to accept as fact that One being, true or not,

I have found that that one *fact*, that It is being what It is being, and It will be what It will be, is the only fact I need.

It explains everything.

"
.........

Sure, but that latter part is the religion.  That belief in the void is a faith.  There isn't anything wrong with that, its just that it is an overlay on Zen, void Zen or Spirit Zen from the stories you've told.

It's why I am disinterested in enlightenment.  Enlightenment, as far as I can gather, seeks to give an answer, even no answer is an answer.  Enlightenment fulfills a question even if no question has been asked. 

But I don't think question or answer is very important.  The moment, and moreover the perceived moment, is so small and so transient that the realized answers and questions are so small as to be non-existant in the scope of reality.  The moment stands within reality, but reality exists beyond the scope of the moment. 

The shore is comprised of sand but each tide, each wave, each breath of wind stirs the sand adding some specs and removing others, yet through it all, through the ever shifting dancing of wind and wave tide and shore the beach still stands.  But the beach is vast, uselessly vast.  The beach simply is.  Each bit of sand however can be used, can be experienced.  It takes concentration, but you can pick out the sand from the shore, but no matter what you can never see all of the shore.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.02.2012
02:28PM EDT 
vertical line Zem fish, zem fish, zem ... fish bones.
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Reply from floating_a
Aug.02.2012
03:03PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Thankyou for everything, Joe Chip.

Namaste.


"
.........

It's nothing.
Namaste.
"
.........

Thankyou regardless :)

Cheers,
Abu
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.02.2012
03:54PM EDT 
vertical line All the best.
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Reply from nibble
Aug.02.2012
08:35PM EDT 
vertical line Agree to whatever that joe dude said, he likes dune
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.02.2012
11:29PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "If it Is an afront or insult to zen by suggesting it is stupidity, who is insulted? Where does the affront come from and reside ?
It certainly does not reside in zen, zen couldn't give a rats what anyone says bout it.
"
.........
A reputation doesn't reside with the thing or person but reflects that thing or person.
Whether the reflection is true or not depends on where you are when you see the view point.
Even though phrases like "kill the Buddha" or "Zen is becoming stupid" may be correct, I don't believe it should be thrown out to novices who don't know what it means.
Cause do you really want someone to go kill another person or bang ones head until stupid??
Only suggesting that there is a right time to reveal such things along the path.

Well, I know that no one could gives a rats a..s what anyone says.
And, my two cents was worth even less. Thanks for the lending the ear.
"
.........


I pointing out Zen is not a thijnking thing, so it canot be affended, so the offense lays with the offended.
"
.........
There is no person or no thing to be offended.
My point was that to say "Zen is becoming stupid" (however right that statement may be) is not something that I would present to others who might wish to learn about Zen. My compassion says that there is so much more to Zen and others can benefit from it. Where is the wisdom in discouraging others from it?
"
.........
Well those who do not wish to become stupid they don't need Zen.
And most people don't need Zen. Only people who are serious and brave are for Zen.

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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.03.2012
12:38AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Well those who do not wish to become stupid they don't need Zen.
And most people don't need Zen. Only people who are serious and brave are for Zen.
"
.........

Well, I must admit that you are the most stupid person I know.
Now, that's a compliment ... lol
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.03.2012
01:24AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Well those who do not wish to become stupid they don't need Zen.
And most people don't need Zen. Only people who are serious and brave are for Zen.
"
.........

Well, I must admit that you are the most stupid person I know.
Now, that's a compliment ... lol
"
.........
Who is it that gets offended??
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.03.2012
02:00AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Well those who do not wish to become stupid they don't need Zen.
And most people don't need Zen. Only people who are serious and brave are for Zen.
"
.........

Well, I must admit that you are the most stupid person I know.
Now, that's a compliment ... lol
"
.........
Who is it that gets offended??
"
.........
How did you know... or you are just guessing..lol

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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.03.2012
06:36AM EDT 
vertical line The middle-way is an extreme for some bodies, with so many many issues of not-offended. A not-offended has made me his special indigenous English correcting friend. He talks to me from his special place through his fornication issues.
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Reply from starduster
Aug.03.2012
08:57AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "What is Zen but the realization and understanding of *Impermanence* ?

That applies to any religion, and even science.  As Einstein said, nothing really exists except the energy that everything is made of.

..."
.........

If there is no everlasting soul upon which God to grant access to heaven or burn in hell
Then can there be a religion or God?
Buddhism teaches the three marks of existence and the 4 seals of Buddha Dharma.
Everything is impermanent, there is suffering and pain, non-self .. and Nirvana

If I realize there is no God, no soul, no self then would not all that exist really is emptiness.
From the emptiness ... everything springs forth.
"
.........

"
.........

If there is no everlasting soul upon which God to grant access to heaven or burn in hell
Then can there be a religion or God?
Buddhism teaches the three marks of existence and the 4 seals of Buddha Dharma.
Everything is impermanent, there is suffering and pain, non-self .. and Nirvana

If I realize there is no God, no soul, no self then would not all that exist really is emptiness.
From the emptiness ... everything springs forth.
"
.........

I didnt say there was no God, or no Soul. 

I believe they are one in the same.

I believe there is only One, and the rest just Its creation,

of Itself, by Itself, for Itself.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140261
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Reply from starduster
Aug.03.2012
09:03AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "I'm not sure Zen speeks to these massive concepts - to the nature of reality, particularly its origins or destiny. Zen only focuses on the moment. That does not necessarily mean that time does not exist, only that it isn't terribly important. There may be an origin and there may be a destiny but here and now there is the moment and the moment stands.

Leave it to religion and to science (although honestly I don't think there is a difference between the two) to figure out -why-. For me, what Zen does best is to figure out -what-."
.........

I wasnt interested in awakening either.  I had bigger fish to fry.

Until one day it came to me anyway, and I found there are no other fish to fry.

There is nothing else.  My stupidity.  I just didnt know nothing yet.

Everything I valued vanished before the very eyes that I no longer had.

We collect as many facts as we can in order to formulate our one opinion.

After nirvana, experiencing myself as one consciousness in the Void, and then experiencing myself (as myself) being in the Vold with that One being,

and then deciding on my own to accept as fact that One being, true or not,

I have found that that one *fact*, that It is being what It is being, and It will be what It will be, is the only fact I need.

It explains everything.

"
.........

Sure, but that latter part is the religion.  That belief in the void is a faith.  There isn't anything wrong with that, its just that it is an overlay on Zen, void Zen or Spirit Zen from the stories you've told.

It's why I am disinterested in enlightenment.  Enlightenment, as far as I can gather, seeks to give an answer, even no answer is an answer.  Enlightenment fulfills a question even if no question has been asked. 

But I don't think question or answer is very important.  The moment, and moreover the perceived moment, is so small and so transient that the realized answers and questions are so small as to be non-existant in the scope of reality.  The moment stands within reality, but reality exists beyond the scope of the moment. 

The shore is comprised of sand but each tide, each wave, each breath of wind stirs the sand adding some specs and removing others, yet through it all, through the ever shifting dancing of wind and wave tide and shore the beach still stands.  But the beach is vast, uselessly vast.  The beach simply is.  Each bit of sand however can be used, can be experienced.  It takes concentration, but you can pick out the sand from the shore, but no matter what you can never see all of the shore.
"
.........
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.03.2012
09:10AM EDT 
vertical line Only seeing.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140263
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.03.2012
10:21AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Well those who do not wish to become stupid they don't need Zen.
And most people don't need Zen. Only people who are serious and brave are for Zen.
"
.........

Well, I must admit that you are the most stupid person I know.
Now, that's a compliment ... lol
"
.........
Who is it that gets offended??
"
.........
How did you know... or you are just guessing..lol

"
.........
Three things that can not be hidden forever ... sun, moon and, the truth.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140266
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.03.2012
10:28AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "What is Zen but the realization and understanding of *Impermanence* ?

That applies to any religion, and even science.  As Einstein said, nothing really exists except the energy that everything is made of.

...
..................

If there is no everlasting soul upon which God to grant access to heaven or burn in hell
Then can there be a religion or God?
Buddhism teaches the three marks of existence and the 4 seals of Buddha Dharma.
Everything is impermanent, there is suffering and pain, non-self .. and Nirvana

If I realize there is no God, no soul, no self then would not all that exist really is emptiness.
From the emptiness ... everything springs forth.

.........

I didnt say there was no God, or no Soul. 

I believe they are one in the same.

I believe there is only One, and the rest just Its creation,

of Itself, by Itself, for Itself."

.........


If  you realized that everything was impermanence then nothing last forever

If nothing last forever then there can be no soul that exist for God to reward with heaven or to burn in hell. No God then no religion.

That's the problem with awakening ... some are shallow and others are deep ... but now matter what meditation continues ... the practice is not over ....

Anyway, I hate logic ... in gets in the way of so much fun.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140267
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.04.2012
01:48AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
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The Buddha's teaching contains three major points:

1. wisdom

2. meditation

3.  discipline

Wisdom is the goal.

Deep meditation is the process toward achieving wisdom.

Discipline is the method that helps one to achieve deep meditation

Buddha's entire teachings as conveyed in the sutras never really depart from these three points.

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Reply from leoj99
Aug.04.2012
02:27AM EDT 
vertical line There is something permanent. If you can see the permanent you get enlightened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb2NDSpqdKQ&feature=player_embedded
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.04.2012
02:29AM EDT 
vertical line Lama Lena on the Nature of the Mind, through the Dzogchen Teachings.flv
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.04.2012
06:32AM EDT 
vertical line Download upload motherlode - you missed a bit.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.04.2012
06:34AM EDT 
vertical line Lustin just doesn't care
He speaks to me from there
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Reply from justin
Aug.05.2012
08:17PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Zen is nothing it is just this (even this description falls short by a million miles), since the begining there has never been anything. Any idea you may have comes from your head, it is you trying to create sometyhing to give stability in this life. there is no stability there is no guarentees (apart from this body falling apart). Drop yourself intyo the abis and see.
"
.........
Zen is nothing
Yet .. here we are.

Zen is nothing
Yet, there are monastery(s) dedicated to it.

Nvm ... two cents is worthless here.
"
.........

this is a computer, a monestery is a monestery, neither of these things aere zen and yet everything is.
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Reply from justin
Aug.05.2012
08:19PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "I'm not sure Zen speeks to these massive concepts - to the nature of reality, particularly its origins or destiny. Zen only focuses on the moment. That does not necessarily mean that time does not exist, only that it isn't terribly important. There may be an origin and there may be a destiny but here and now there is the moment and the moment stands.

Leave it to religion and to science (although honestly I don't think there is a difference between the two) to figure out -why-. For me, what Zen does best is to figure out -what-.
"
.........

hahaha what is the moment but reality :)
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Reply from justin
Aug.05.2012
08:23PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "

The Buddha's teaching contains three major points:

1. wisdom

2. meditation

3.  discipline

Wisdom is the goal.

Deep meditation is the process toward achieving wisdom.

Discipline is the method that helps one to achieve deep meditation

Buddha's entire teachings as conveyed in the sutras never really depart from these three points.

"
.........

and none of these

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Reply from frozenaomi
Aug.05.2012
09:16PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "I'm not sure Zen speeks to these massive concepts - to the nature of reality, particularly its origins or destiny. Zen only focuses on the moment. That does not necessarily mean that time does not exist, only that it isn't terribly important. There may be an origin and there may be a destiny but here and now there is the moment and the moment stands.

Leave it to religion and to science (although honestly I don't think there is a difference between the two) to figure out -why-. For me, what Zen does best is to figure out -what-.
"
.........

hahaha what is the moment but reality :)
"
.........

This might step on a few toes, so a friendly disclaimer, this is only my idea as it stands.  It does not, and I do not, invalidate anyone else's differing perceptions.

**shrug**  It is a matter of perspective.  If you interact with Zen as a religion than the moment is reality because it becomes entangled with karma and old master worship (Buddhism).  That is there is some prior event(s) impacting the moment and future event(s) upon which the moment can act. 

Zen as philosophy, as far as my limited hypothesis goes, however, exists solely within the moment, in a period of time infinitely brief with absolutely no duration (this is the difference between vector and scalar systems briefly discussed below) and, moreover, as the only thing which is relevant is that which we can directly interact with, the moment is further reduced to only the perspective of reality perceived by the practitioner.  Consequently, there is, in the moment, no flow of time, and no impact from the flow of time so karma becomes meaningless as there is no prior event to impact the moment nor any future event to be impacted in turn and there is a finite reduction of reality into the applicable frame set of perceptive capacity of the individual philosopher. 

Consequently, within the paradigm of my theoretic philosophical Zen, the moment is anything but reality.

Reality is everything, reality is huge vast ancient and utterly irrelevant.  Reality is vector, it has origin and direction.  Reality is every event every consequence and every perspective of every event and every consequence within each possible configuration of every consequence and every perspective of every even within every possible state under which every event every consequence and every perspective of every event and every consequence within each possible configuration of every consequence can occur.  These perspectives and frame rates are, moreover, mutually exclusive.  Reality contains the creation and annihilation of a pair of particles within a diffuse cloud of dust occurring this moment 8 billion light years away with no means of carrying the information of that event to this local in space and even if it could, in 8 billion years the earth won't be here.  And that is within one of an infinite possible configuration within and infinite possible of energy states each with an infinte series of possible configurations.  Reality is useless.  Reality is really stupidly pointlessly meaningless.

The moment is not reality.  The moment isn't even a fraction of reality.  It is an instant of time so small and a perspective so infinitesimal as to truly be indistinguishable, and more importantly unintegratable (because of the loss of causal boundaries to give continuity), within the scope of reality.  (You cannot effectively integrate a point, the scalar value, the distance from the axis to the point times no length yields a null value whatever scalar value you assign to the point).  Therefore, the moment stands outside of reality, impacted by it, perhaps even created by it, but exterior to the bonds of reality.  The moment is scalar, without any means of orienting the nature of it only the quality it possesses.  And yet it is in the moment we exist.  What is is what is as far as we can tell from where we are. 

More simply, who cares _WHY_ reality is?  Why is a matter of reality and religion.  Interesting, perhaps, but ratifying nothing.  What is important is _WHAT_ it is.  What is is what is.  (-bloop-)  What is is a matter of the moment. 
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.05.2012
09:20PM EDT 
vertical line The fabulous stone of alchemy.
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Reply from frozenaomi
Aug.05.2012
09:34PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line I wonder why no one ever comments on the fact that it is the elixer of life not the elixer of health.  I fear the two are very much not the same thing.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.05.2012
09:52PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line From my novice point of view ...
Zen is the application of Zazen
Through the discipline of meditation, awareness becomes more apparent
Thoughts are not stopped ... cause how can you still water by slapping it flat??
Letting go of thoughts is the first step. Awareness, focus, ...
Clarity is cultivated. And the myriad layers of self and ego are stripped away
Thus, the delusion of self, no self, soul, no soul is reveal.
Sometimes said to be seeing into one's true nature.

The stink of Zen comes when every new comers begins to cycle through what he has learned. Beware .. beware of traps.
There are traps along the way. Traps of ego. Traps of power.
Traps of lust and desires beyond reason. Traps of pride.
Forever a cycle of gain and lost.

When the moment comes, it can be gradual or like an avalanche.
Only one thing is certain ... this is only the start of the journey.
Only the beginning. One lives in the world but not of the world.

My apologies to anyone who thinks or believes differently.
I'm not here to debate .. but to learn ....
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Reply from frozenaomi
Aug.05.2012
09:59PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line What does "the stink of zen" mean to you?  I'm not challenging the term in any way, I am merely curious, you have used it a few times and I wounder what you mean by it.
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Reply from justin
Aug.05.2012
10:10PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "I'm not sure Zen speeks to these massive concepts - to the nature of reality, particularly its origins or destiny. Zen only focuses on the moment. That does not necessarily mean that time does not exist, only that it isn't terribly important. There may be an origin and there may be a destiny but here and now there is the moment and the moment stands.

Leave it to religion and to science (although honestly I don't think there is a difference between the two) to figure out -why-. For me, what Zen does best is to figure out -what-.
"
.........

hahaha what is the moment but reality :)
"
.........

This might step on a few toes, so a friendly disclaimer, this is only my idea as it stands.  It does not, and I do not, invalidate anyone else's differing perceptions.

**shrug**  It is a matter of perspective.  If you interact with Zen as a religion than the moment is reality because it becomes entangled with karma and old master worship (Buddhism).  That is there is some prior event(s) impacting the moment and future event(s) upon which the moment can act. 

Zen as philosophy, as far as my limited hypothesis goes, however, exists solely within the moment, in a period of time infinitely brief with absolutely no duration (this is the difference between vector and scalar systems briefly discussed below) and, moreover, as the only thing which is relevant is that which we can directly interact with, the moment is further reduced to only the perspective of reality perceived by the practitioner.  Consequently, there is, in the moment, no flow of time, and no impact from the flow of time so karma becomes meaningless as there is no prior event to impact the moment nor any future event to be impacted in turn and there is a finite reduction of reality into the applicable frame set of perceptive capacity of the individual philosopher. 

Consequently, within the paradigm of my theoretic philosophical Zen, the moment is anything but reality.

Reality is everything, reality is huge vast ancient and utterly irrelevant.  Reality is vector, it has origin and direction.  Reality is every event every consequence and every perspective of every event and every consequence within each possible configuration of every consequence and every perspective of every even within every possible state under which every event every consequence and every perspective of every event and every consequence within each possible configuration of every consequence can occur.  These perspectives and frame rates are, moreover, mutually exclusive.  Reality contains the creation and annihilation of a pair of particles within a diffuse cloud of dust occurring this moment 8 billion light years away with no means of carrying the information of that event to this local in space and even if it could, in 8 billion years the earth won't be here.  And that is within one of an infinite possible configuration within and infinite possible of energy states each with an infinte series of possible configurations.  Reality is useless.  Reality is really stupidly pointlessly meaningless.

The moment is not reality.  The moment isn't even a fraction of reality.  It is an instant of time so small and a perspective so infinitesimal as to truly be indistinguishable, and more importantly unintegratable (because of the loss of causal boundaries to give continuity), within the scope of reality.  (You cannot effectively integrate a point, the scalar value, the distance from the axis to the point times no length yields a null value whatever scalar value you assign to the point).  Therefore, the moment stands outside of reality, impacted by it, perhaps even created by it, but exterior to the bonds of reality.  The moment is scalar, without any means of orienting the nature of it only the quality it possesses.  And yet it is in the moment we exist.  What is is what is as far as we can tell from where we are. 

More simply, who cares _WHY_ reality is?  Why is a matter of reality and religion.  Interesting, perhaps, but ratifying nothing.  What is important is _WHAT_ it is.  What is is what is.  (-bloop-)  What is is a matter of the moment. 
"
.........


Religion is human understanding, zen is not this try again :)
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Reply from justin
Aug.05.2012
10:17PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "I'm not sure Zen speeks to these massive concepts - to the nature of reality, particularly its origins or destiny. Zen only focuses on the moment. That does not necessarily mean that time does not exist, only that it isn't terribly important. There may be an origin and there may be a destiny but here and now there is the moment and the moment stands.

Leave it to religion and to science (although honestly I don't think there is a difference between the two) to figure out -why-. For me, what Zen does best is to figure out -what-.
"
.........

hahaha what is the moment but reality :)
"
.........

This might step on a few toes, so a friendly disclaimer, this is only my idea as it stands.  It does not, and I do not, invalidate anyone else's differing perceptions.

**shrug**  It is a matter of perspective.  If you interact with Zen as a religion than the moment is reality because it becomes entangled with karma and old master worship (Buddhism).  That is there is some prior event(s) impacting the moment and future event(s) upon which the moment can act. 

Zen as philosophy, as far as my limited hypothesis goes, however, exists solely within the moment, in a period of time infinitely brief with absolutely no duration (this is the difference between vector and scalar systems briefly discussed below) and, moreover, as the only thing which is relevant is that which we can directly interact with, the moment is further reduced to only the perspective of reality perceived by the practitioner.  Consequently, there is, in the moment, no flow of time, and no impact from the flow of time so karma becomes meaningless as there is no prior event to impact the moment nor any future event to be impacted in turn and there is a finite reduction of reality into the applicable frame set of perceptive capacity of the individual philosopher. 

Consequently, within the paradigm of my theoretic philosophical Zen, the moment is anything but reality.

Reality is everything, reality is huge vast ancient and utterly irrelevant.  Reality is vector, it has origin and direction.  Reality is every event every consequence and every perspective of every event and every consequence within each possible configuration of every consequence and every perspective of every even within every possible state under which every event every consequence and every perspective of every event and every consequence within each possible configuration of every consequence can occur.  These perspectives and frame rates are, moreover, mutually exclusive.  Reality contains the creation and annihilation of a pair of particles within a diffuse cloud of dust occurring this moment 8 billion light years away with no means of carrying the information of that event to this local in space and even if it could, in 8 billion years the earth won't be here.  And that is within one of an infinite possible configuration within and infinite possible of energy states each with an infinte series of possible configurations.  Reality is useless.  Reality is really stupidly pointlessly meaningless.

The moment is not reality.  The moment isn't even a fraction of reality.  It is an instant of time so small and a perspective so infinitesimal as to truly be indistinguishable, and more importantly unintegratable (because of the loss of causal boundaries to give continuity), within the scope of reality.  (You cannot effectively integrate a point, the scalar value, the distance from the axis to the point times no length yields a null value whatever scalar value you assign to the point).  Therefore, the moment stands outside of reality, impacted by it, perhaps even created by it, but exterior to the bonds of reality.  The moment is scalar, without any means of orienting the nature of it only the quality it possesses.  And yet it is in the moment we exist.  What is is what is as far as we can tell from where we are. 

More simply, who cares _WHY_ reality is?  Why is a matter of reality and religion.  Interesting, perhaps, but ratifying nothing.  What is important is _WHAT_ it is.  What is is what is.  (-bloop-)  What is is a matter of the moment. 
"
.........


Religion is human understanding, zen is not this try again :)
"
.........

Understanding any thing with in the paridigm of your current knowledge is bound to fail. Try something new. try knowing without knowing why :) and i do not mean book learning which changes all the time, i am talking about real knowledge. there are sao so many words here that lead nowhere, i feel you are trying to explain something you are perhaps aware of but do not understand or comprehend where the knowledge comes from. give up your safety net of learning and then you will see.
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Reply from justin
Aug.05.2012
10:22PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line and it is a safety net for you 
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.05.2012
10:40PM EDT 
vertical line So what is the moment. What is reality. It seems you  have described it in so many words but I missed what you really meant. 
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Reply from frozenaomi
Aug.05.2012
11:31PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line Quote:
"Understanding any thing with in the paridigm of your current knowledge is bound to fail. Try something new. try knowing without knowing why"

Perhaps.  Certainly understanding everything is destined to fail.  I do think this is the least important aspect of Zen.  Interacting with the moment as it presents itself seems more, interesting at least, than trying to parse out why the moment exists. 

Nevertheless, I will try to work on faith, knowledge without rationality.  I am quite bad at it, I seem to have very few intuitive skills.  Which, I suppose, is all the more reason to work on them.

"So what is the moment. What is reality. It seems you  have described it in so many words but I missed what you really meant.  "
.........

**sigh**  It really doesn't matter.  I'll try one more time, but what I had before really was the most reduced form I could think of.  The moment is this.  The moment is that portion of existence which your are currently experiencing.  Its the part you can respond to.  Reality is the infinitely iterated series of context the mutual interactions therein which contrived to produce the moment.  But the moment is not a part of reality because it is so small and so brief as to be without context. 
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.05.2012
11:42PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "What does "the stink of zen" mean to you?  I'm not challenging the term in any way, I am merely curious, you have used it a few times and I wounder what you mean by it. "
.........
The stink of Zen is when the people who learned anything about Zen start to speak as if they know everything there is about Zen. It comes out as if from a place of authority. When in reality, just a novice .. no matter if 20 or 30 years of meditation.
For it isn't the number of years but the depth of meditation.

(Note to self: Damn, I got to stop talking about what I know and shut up and learn more)

Examples:  Some say you must stop thought. Take a rock and hit yourself over the head. That will stop thoughts but it won't grant enlightenment or wisdom.
Some say their 20 years of meditation and never have read a book on Zen is the right way.
Their Zen pride then gets in the way to learn anything of real value.

When I use the term, I mean my Zen stink has gotten out of hand. I believe I know somethings about Zen. But, I also know that I don't know everything. Soup is my way of saying to begin again. Re focus and begin again. When walking just walk .. when eating just eat.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.05.2012
11:47PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Also, some people seem stuck on putting out what they think Zen is.
When they should be accessing the state of the person asking the question and returning an answer which will help the person learn more and make their practice better.

Okay, my stink of Zen has gotten to me. I need soup.
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Reply from nibble
Aug.05.2012
11:53PM EDT 
vertical line My holiday is over and I have to go to my 8-16 work in a couple of hours, while still totally gotten done nothing with my personal/one-man 3d-gfx-web-potato firmwhatever.
I have a faint hope that somehow The Einstein Cross Quasar has some mysterious outburst that target earth through the Huchra's Lens instantly causing rampant twin-photon`s to whip up this huge geomagnetic storm that wreaks havoc on all electronic, whiping out computers and public tax records, causing the government to order the public to chill and take some extra paid vacation until they can sort out the situation. Would be nice, thou kinda a long shot I guess:)
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.05.2012
11:54PM EDT 
vertical line " But the moment is not a part of reality because it is so small and so brief as to be without context.  "

So the moment is not reality... and reality is not t he moment?
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.05.2012
11:55PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "My holiday is over and I have to go to my 8-16 work in a couple of hours, while still totally gotten done nothing with my personal/one-man 3d-gfx-web-potato firmwhatever.
I have a faint hope that somehow The Einstein Cross Quasar has some mysterious outburst that target earth through the Huchra's Lens instantly causing rampant twin-photon`s to whip up this huge geomagnetic storm that wreaks havoc on all electronic, whiping out computers and public tax records, causing the government to order the public to chill and take some extra paid vacation until they can sort out the situation. Would be nice, thou kinda a long shot I guess:)
"
.........

Sounds like a nice beginning to a novel.
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.05.2012
11:57PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "What does "the stink of zen" mean to you?  I'm not challenging the term in any way, I am merely curious, you have used it a few times and I wounder what you mean by it. "
.........
The stink of Zen is when the people who learned anything about Zen start to speak as if they know everything there is about Zen. It comes out as if from a place of authority. When in reality, just a novice .. no matter if 20 or 30 years of meditation.
For it isn't the number of years but the depth of meditation.

(Note to self: Damn, I got to stop talking about what I know and shut up and learn more)

Examples:  Some say you must stop thought. Take a rock and hit yourself over the head. That will stop thoughts but it won't grant enlightenment or wisdom.
Some say their 20 years of meditation and never have read a book on Zen is the right way.
Their Zen pride then gets in the way to learn anything of real value.

When I use the term, I mean my Zen stink has gotten out of hand. I believe I know somethings about Zen. But, I also know that I don't know everything. Soup is my way of saying to begin again. Re focus and begin again. When walking just walk .. when eating just eat.
"
.........

So who is that guy you are talking about?
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.06.2012
12:01AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "So who is that guy you are talking about?"
.........

No guy. None of what I said should relate to anyone here.
And, I deeply apologize to anyone who has taken offense.
As I have said before, I'm not here to debate but to learn.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.06.2012
06:46AM EDT 
vertical line The paynes and lustings of this zenguide world appear to need help, but what they really want is attention, attention, attention.
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Reply from justin
Aug.06.2012
06:54AM EDT 
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vertical line The written word and logic come from only one kart of the brain, there is s whole other side!

It was there first :)
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.06.2012
07:05AM EDT 
vertical line Part of your artificial world.
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Reply from justin
Aug.07.2012
07:45PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line I said it before and I say it again fences are wY to heavy to take
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Reply from so_teh
Aug.08.2012
07:21PM EDT 
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vertical line Through the top 20 topics...and beyond!
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.09.2012
08:23AM EDT 
vertical line Ad astra.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.09.2012
01:05PM EDT 
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vertical line Who is up for soup?
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Reply from so_teh
Aug.09.2012
01:37PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line I was up relatively early today! After the rain came through last night, lifting the mind, waking the flesh and bone, opening a prayer of thanks, loving what is, touching the earth, renewing the body and seeing to THAT. Eliminating Suffering, through and through...piece by piece...life after life...Way
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.09.2012
05:55PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Stopped into a church
I passed along the way
Well, I got down on my knees
Got down on my knees (chorus)
And I pretend to pray
I pretend to pray (chorus)
You know the preacher likes the cold
Preacher likes the cold
He knows I'm gonna stay
Knows I'm gonna stay
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.09.2012
05:55PM EDT 
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vertical line Mamas and the Papas
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.15.2012
02:30AM EDT 
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vertical line Sorry, almost forgot to give credit ... hahaha
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Reply from boymonk
Aug.15.2012
03:17AM EDT 
vertical line Thief.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.15.2012
01:15PM EDT 
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vertical line Quote: "Thief."
.........

Still acting like the monkey??
That monkey brain is what will keep you trapped in the Wheel of Life with the Twelve Chains holding you .. forever.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.16.2012
10:32PM EDT 
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vertical line Monks, of the past, would travel and sometimes stay overnight at a monastery.
But, normally before permission to stay was granted, there would be a duel on the Merits of Buddhism.

One night two monks stopped by wishing to stay over night. The abbot asked that they wait in the room while he got someone to help them.  The only person available was a person who was slow and had lost one eye when he was younger. The abbot sent him to help the travelers.

The young man, upon entering the room, bowed to the two monks.
The monks stood and bow back. And then, one of them put one finger up. The young man put two fingers up. The two monks bowed and walked out.

The abbot seeing the two monks leaving asked what had happened. The monk said that during their duel he held up one finger to represent the one true teachings of Buddha. The young man then put up two fingers to show the dualistic mind. So, they said that after losing that they must leave.

The abbot then went to the young man who was running after the two monk. Asked the young man what had happened. The young man said that no sooner than he had walked into the room the monk was rude and pointed out that he only had one eye. He lifted two fingers to compliment the monk on having to eyes. Then they got up and left. The young man said he was so angry that he was going to beat them up.

You can take it anyway you want .. I just wanted to share that story. Sorry, don't remember who to give credit to ....???

I think this little story was passed over in the other thread due to others who had their own agenda. Here it is again.
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Reply from boymonk
Aug.16.2012
10:36PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Thief."
.........

Still acting like the boymonk??
That train is what will keep you trapped in the Wheel of Life with the Twelve Chains holding you .. forever.
"
.........

Train? What are you talking about?
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.16.2012
10:41PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Thief."
.........

Still acting like the boymonk??
That train is what will keep you trapped in the Wheel of Life with the Twelve Chains holding you .. forever.
"
.........

Train? What are you talking about?
"
.........
Still acting like the monkey??
That monkey brain is what will keep you trapped in the Wheel of Life with the Twelve Chains holding you .. forever.

You see that is why you will never get it right.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.16.2012
10:44PM EDT 
vertical line You don't see.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.17.2012
03:58AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "You don't see."
.........
Thanks Joe
Whadda ya know??

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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.17.2012
05:50AM EDT 
vertical line No problem.
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