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  On one occasion, the Buddha said to the monks this:
"No other form do I know, O monks, that so persists in obsessing the mind of a man as the form of a woman.
The form of a woman persists in obsessing the mind of a man.

"No... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: THINKING
vertical line Posted on Aug.08.2012 @ 06:01AM EDT by starduster

If you think your internal dialogue is thinking, and that you stop thinking when you stop the internal dialogue, do you really understand thinking?

I can remember thinking before I could talk.  I remember learning to talk.  How could one learn to talk without thinking ?

Talking to yourself in your head is not thinking, its talking to yourself about what you are thinking.


Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.08.2012
06:02AM EDT 
vertical line I don't know anything about zen.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140562
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.08.2012
05:56PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Who observes the observer??
Who watches the watcher?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140597
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Reply from so_teh
Aug.08.2012
06:24PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line I don't know who any of you are.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140602
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.08.2012
08:18PM EDT 
vertical line And the wind cried Mary
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140629
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.08.2012
09:17PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line I can remember listening to the quiet .. thinking that this is peaceful.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140631
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.09.2012
12:19AM EDT 
vertical line Thinking is nothing but the past and the future. So you are out of the present moment. Your awareness is always attached to the past to the future but you are absent minded of what is happening now. 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140643
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.09.2012
02:42AM EDT 
vertical line The moment you think you miss this.

The Life of flowers (????? ??????)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140645
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.09.2012
03:01AM EDT 
vertical line Your thoughts are exactly like this:

Clouds Time Lapse HD
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140646
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.09.2012
03:05AM EDT 
vertical line Many Zen Masters take a cloud as their Dharma name.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140647
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.09.2012
05:53AM EDT 
vertical line The secret life of plants the cloud appreciation society.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140648
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.11.2012
01:57AM EDT 
vertical line Thinking is remembering or imagination. If you encounter something you retrieve it from your memory and compare it to what you see. So obviously you cannot think of something you have not encountered before. Like  emptiness. If you experience emptiness but if it does not compare on what you know, what you have read about emptiness it does not compute. So even if you experience emptiness as if it did not happen. Like wisdom you only know wisdom according to your knowledge of wisdom.

Suppose  you try to think of the unknown can you think about it.
This problem about thinking is what Zen is suppose to cure.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140747
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.11.2012
08:41AM EDT 
vertical line Present will pass.
Presence will not pass.

Unveiling Buddha - Buddee will try to cover and block that.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140760
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.11.2012
03:43PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Present will pass.
Presence will not pass.

Unveiling Buddha - Buddee will try to cover and block that.
"
.........

That is so true..... Presence is permanent....
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140773
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.11.2012
03:46PM EDT 
vertical line Presence is permanent since you are not thinking. When you start thinking again then everything is impermanent.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140774
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Reply from so_teh
Aug.11.2012
04:26PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Who would have thunk it?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140775
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Reply from shayne
Aug.11.2012
08:16PM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line Quote: "Presence is permanent since you are not thinking. When you start thinking again then everything is impermanent. "
.........

this is dumb thinking.

a thought is part of reality.

no attachment people.

not to no thinking.

not to thinking.

be free.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140776
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.11.2012
10:05PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Presence is permanent since you are not thinking. When you start thinking again then everything is impermanent. "
.........

this is dumb thinking.

a thought is part of reality.

no attachment people.

not to no thinking.

not to thinking.

be free.
"

So what thought that is reality? Or maybe thoughts are just dumb  things you attach with.
.........
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140777
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.11.2012
10:56PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line This too shall pass.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140779
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Reply from shayne
Aug.11.2012
11:47PM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Presence is permanent since you are not thinking. When you start thinking again then everything is impermanent. "
.........

this is dumb thinking.

a thought is part of reality.

no attachment people.

not to no thinking.

not to thinking.

be free.
"

So what thought that is reality? Or maybe thoughts are just dumb  things you attach with.
.........
"

sorry. dont even understand this.

lets not post lies on the internet.

ok?

.........
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.12.2012
02:03AM EDT 
vertical line How can you think of this.

The Moment ...

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Reply from frozenaomi
Aug.12.2012
08:01AM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line By studying music and/or filmography?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140789
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.12.2012
08:02AM EDT 
vertical line The moment contracted, withdrew its light.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140790
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.12.2012
02:16PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Presence is permanent since you are not thinking. When you start thinking again then everything is impermanent. "
.........

this is dumb thinking.

a thought is part of reality.

no attachment people.

not to no thinking.

not to thinking.

be free.
"

So what thought that is reality? Or maybe thoughts are just dumb  things you attach with.
.........
"

sorry. dont even understand this.

lets not post lies on the internet.

ok?"

.........

I had wished for toys one Christmas but got socks instead.
Sometimes you just don't get what you want most.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.12.2012
02:25PM EDT 
vertical line What is the question? This is the starting point.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.13.2012
02:01AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line I would like my bowl of soup, please ...
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.13.2012
04:20AM EDT 
vertical line Of course internal dialogue is thinking. Putting into words you experience is thinking. What I mean you should know when to think and when to not think. If I say don't think you don't think about spiritual inspirations. Zen is a practice of not thinking. That is why you sit with breath counting facing the wall. lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140828
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Reply from justin
Aug.13.2012
04:30AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Presence is permanent since you are not thinking. When you start thinking again then everything is impermanent. "
.........

this is dumb thinking.

a thought is part of reality.

no attachment people.

not to no thinking.

not to thinking.

be free.
"

So what thought that is reality? Or maybe thoughts are just dumb  things you attach with.
.........
"

sorry. dont even understand this.

lets not post lies on the internet.

ok?"

.........

I had wished for toys one Christmas but got socks instead.
Sometimes you just don't get what you want most.
"
.........


but if you try sometimes.....you find you get what u need :)
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.13.2012
06:55AM EDT 
vertical line Reality is what you are - your moment determines that, lengthening and shortening in accordance with your presence.
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.13.2012
05:42PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Of course internal dialogue is thinking. Putting into words you experience is thinking. What I mean you should know when to think and when to not think. If I say don't think you don't think about spiritual inspirations. Zen is a practice of not thinking. That is why you sit with breath counting facing the wall. lol

"
.........

"Zen is a practice without thinking." Where do you get these ideas? The awareness before and after thinking, this is the practice. If your mind is chaotic with thought, your awareness of this, is the practice. A great effort to make your mind stop thinking is un-natural. The practice facilitates the moments when thinking is practically not there, but it is organic, natural. When you focus on an object so strongly, that you are no longer thinking this is called concentration practice. The whole idea of concentration practice is to remain aware, but aware without the rejection of the flowing of the present moment. Should that moment contain, irritation, chaotic thoughts, or pleasant feelings, it is your awareness which is the practice. Attachment to discomfort or pleasure will cause you to spiral in many directions, but acknowledgement and honoring what arises and falls away as you release it, this is the practice. When your awareness is strong enough you will begin to see your karmic impulses and instead of running with them, you let them go. When there is no awareness, you are controlled by your notions and will do much to protect the truth of your beliefs. Do not lean toward nor against.
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Reply from Woodsman
Aug.13.2012
06:11PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line rubbed an itchy spot, area, on my face not thinking what caused it
breathe without thinking
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140848
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.13.2012
06:25PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Of course internal dialogue is thinking. Putting into words you experience is thinking. What I mean you should know when to think and when to not think. If I say don't think you don't think about spiritual inspirations. Zen is a practice of not thinking. That is why you sit with breath counting facing the wall. lol

"
.........

"Zen is a practice without thinking." Where do you get these ideas? The awareness before and after thinking, this is the practice. If your mind is chaotic with thought, your awareness of this, is the practice. A great effort to make your mind stop thinking is un-natural. The practice facilitates the moments when thinking is practically not there, but it is organic, natural. When you focus on an object so strongly, that you are no longer thinking this is called concentration practice. The whole idea of concentration practice is to remain aware, but aware without the rejection of the flowing of the present moment. Should that moment contain, irritation, chaotic thoughts, or pleasant feelings, it is your awareness which is the practice. Attachment to discomfort or pleasure will cause you to spiral in many directions, but acknowledgement and honoring what arises and falls away as you release it, this is the practice. When your awareness is strong enough you will begin to see your karmic impulses and instead of running with them, you let them go. When there is no awareness, you are controlled by your notions and will do much to protect the truth of your beliefs. Do not lean toward nor against.
"
.........

Hands palm to palm .. bows

Thanks
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140849
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.13.2012
06:26PM EDT 
vertical line Thinking not thinking without thinking.
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.13.2012
06:29PM EDT 
vertical line Awareness does not reject anything, it sees the arising thought, reflects the thought, and it stops reflecting it when the thought is gone. Awareness is the mirror, undiscriminating in what it reflects. You know when awareness is gone, that is when you remember to watch your breathing again, and then, you are aware again. Breathing is incidental but it is a good lifeline when your mirror becomes clouded. The mirror will reflect, emotion, thoughts, dreams, and everything else that comes and goes. Eventually there is a slip that happens where thinking suddenly ceases. You can feel it, it feels like everything has gone quiet, even as it has not. This can not be made to happen, but there is something in the embrace of every thought, every fluttering and distracting imagining, and then letting it go as it arises, as you embrace it. Eventually the well of your pent up mental animations, runs dry, and you are pure here, pure now, pure being. And then you start thinking again. You can wash dishes being the pure act of washing dishes. You can walk to the bus stop, being the pure experience of walking to the bus stop, and what thoughts arise, arise and fall away as part of the experience.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140852
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.13.2012
06:33PM EDT 
vertical line You are all that arises.

You quoted "a practice of not thinking" and called it "a practice without thinking".
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.13.2012
06:41PM EDT 
vertical line Do you need to think before you can have a thought?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140854
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.13.2012
06:53PM EDT 
vertical line Harmony arising?
Problem arising?
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.13.2012
08:00PM EDT 
vertical line "Hold up!" said an elderly rabbit at the gap. "Six pence for the privilege of passing by the private road!" He was bowled over in an instant by the impatient and contemptuous Mole, who trotted along the side of the hedge chaffing the other rabbits as they peeped hurriedly from their holes to see what the row was about. "Onion-sauce! Onion-sauce!" he remarked jeeringly, and was gone before they could think of a thoroughly satisfactory reply. Then they all started grumbling at each other, "How STUPID you are! Whey didn't you tell him --" "Well, why didn't you say --" "You might have reminded him--" and so on, in the usual way; but, of course, it was then much too late, as is always the case.

~Wind in the Willows
Kenneth Grahame
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Reply from Woodsman
Aug.13.2012
08:20PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Wait a minute, then put down the watch and feel time dissolve every illusion.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140864
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.13.2012
08:34PM EDT 
vertical line I am illusory.
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.13.2012
10:14PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "I am illusory."
.........


Sitting in the midst of the ocean the illusion would be that all the world is one vast ocean and one vast sky. Illusion though it may be, it seems very real and in that space and time, it is real. This is all that you can perceive with your senses, it is literally all that there is. So while it is true that you are an illusion it is also true, that you are. When you strike the surface of a pool of water, all sorts of forms take shape in the splash. If you slowed that splash down you could watch drops change in form along their linear path and destination. For a moment they are divided from the whole, seemingly independent, with its own momentum, trajectory and form. Eventually it will re-merge with the body of water. So that it had its own singular existence for a time, but all along it had been and always will be a part of the whole.
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.14.2012
01:18AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Of course internal dialogue is thinking. Putting into words you experience is thinking. What I mean you should know when to think and when to not think. If I say don't think you don't think about spiritual inspirations. Zen is a practice of not thinking. That is why you sit with breath counting facing the wall. lol

"
.........

"Zen is a practice without thinking." Where do you get these ideas? The awareness before and after thinking, this is the practice. If your mind is chaotic with thought, your awareness of this, is the practice. A great effort to make your mind stop thinking is un-natural. The practice facilitates the moments when thinking is practically not there, but it is organic, natural. When you focus on an object so strongly, that you are no longer thinking this is called concentration practice. The whole idea of concentration practice is to remain aware, but aware without the rejection of the flowing of the present moment. Should that moment contain, irritation, chaotic thoughts, or pleasant feelings, it is your awareness which is the practice. Attachment to discomfort or pleasure will cause you to spiral in many directions, but acknowledgement and honoring what arises and falls away as you release it, this is the practice. When your awareness is strong enough you will begin to see your karmic impulses and instead of running with them, you let them go. When there is no awareness, you are controlled by your notions and will do much to protect the truth of your beliefs. Do not lean toward nor against.
"
.........

I think you just described the monkey mind.
I have to add that you can only stop thinking with understanding. Understanding makes the mind calm and undisturbed.
It is so difficult to stop thinking that is why you need to practice zazen for years and do koan studies for understanding under a qualified teacher.
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.14.2012
01:42AM EDT 
vertical line J. Krishnamurti: The Nature Of Thought: Part 1(of 6)
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.14.2012
02:22AM EDT 
vertical line First of all Koan studies are a Rinzai practice and I do Soto. Second I find it amusing that you recommend learning under a Zen teacher and then you pull out Krishnamurti, who does not teach Zen. Thirdly, the Abbott of my school and several teachers in Dharma talk repeatedly state that Zen is not about "not thinking". And fourth, if you read Dogen's teachings On the Great Wisdom that is Beyond discriminatory thought (Dogen being a central Zen/Chan teacher) you will find what I am speaking of. And finally, in my own direct experience, it is simply so. The stillness you seek comes from not discriminating between this is good this is bad, thinking bad, not thinking good. That is immediately dualistic. The immediate embrace of all your direct experiences tears down the duality of discrimination and leads to a non-dual experience. But as it says in Dogen's teachings, it is difficult for the intellect to understand. You can not argue this, I can not defend it, it is simply so if you do it. And as I always say, don't take my word for it, do it.
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.14.2012
02:50AM EDT 
vertical line "In the text The Straight Path, Zen Master Anzan Hoshin quotes the following from Zen Master Dogen's Fukanzazengi, or How Everyone Can Sit:

"Think of not-thinking. How do you think of not-thinking? Be before thinking. These are the basics of zazen."

The Sensei unfolds the meaning of this passage in this way:

"This means: No opposites. Zen is not a matter of thinking (shiryo) or of shutting out thought (fushiryo) but of being Before Thinking (hishiryo). Before Thinking means to be prior to experiences in the same way that a mirror is always prior to what it shows even at the moment of showing it. We cannot be anything that we are aware of. We are always the context of whatever content arises. When we release all of our states and our avoidance and identification then we are always right there at the very moment that the world arises, right at this pointless point. Bring together every aspect of mind, everything hidden and everything obvious, and allow each to resolve itself into the knowing of it. This is zazen, the shikan-taza of all Awakened Ones.""
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.14.2012
02:59AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "First of all Koan studies are a Rinzai practice and I do Soto. Second I find it amusing that you recommend learning under a Zen teacher and then you pull out Krishnamurti, who does not teach Zen. Thirdly, the Abbott of my school and several teachers in Dharma talk repeatedly state that Zen is not about "not thinking". And fourth, if you read Dogen's teachings On the Great Wisdom that is Beyond discriminatory thought (Dogen being a central Zen/Chan teacher) you will find what I am speaking of. And finally, in my own direct experience, it is simply so. The stillness you seek comes from not discriminating between this is good this is bad, thinking bad, not thinking good. That is immediately dualistic. The immediate embrace of all your direct experiences tears down the duality of discrimination and leads to a non-dual experience. But as it says in Dogen's teachings, it is difficult for the intellect to understand. You can not argue this, I can not defend it, it is simply so if you do it. And as I always say, don't take my word for it, do it. "
.........
That is exactly "The stillness  you seek comes from not discriminating between this is good and this is bad, thinking bad, not thinking good. That is immediately dualistic."

How can you go beyond that.. It is exactly not thinking... Thinking is good and bad.. comparative thinking..
 
If you can stop thinking you have solve the problem of good and bad.
Thinking is dualistic. You can only go beyond duality by not thinking.

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Reply from leoj99
Aug.14.2012
03:04AM EDT 
vertical line So why do sit in zazen and just do breath counting or awareness of the breath and face a blank wall.. That is exactly to stop you from your thoughts. In sesshin you do it for days.. and you need a kyosako.. to alleviate the stress on the shoulder...
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140879
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.14.2012
03:06AM EDT 
vertical line And you should attend sesshins maybe 3 - 5 days a years and do it for years..That is how hard to slow down your thinking mind.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140880
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.14.2012
03:07AM EDT 
vertical line You are very close Leoj, but you are caught by a conceptual trap of 'not-thinking'. If you are aware before a thought arises, then you reflect the thought without becoming the thought and it passes without burden, cause of action, or repetition. These arising mental flotsam and jetsom cause all sorts of havok on an unaware mind. An aware mind however simply sees and does not react to. Eventually as you widen this experience of being before thought, then your thoughts are direct and not discursive or jumping from topic to topic. Thoughts which are willed when you are aware, serve purpose without being fantasy or construct. Pure all embracing awareness which is gentle yet firm and you will find what it is you are seeking.
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.14.2012
03:16AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "And you should attend sesshins maybe 3 - 5 days a years and do it for years..That is how hard to slow down your thinking mind.

"
.........

Please understand I am not trying to fool you. I have a vested interest in you having a non-dual experience, we all do. It is my greatest wish that you feel the freedom you seek, but you are very attached to your ideas of what this is. It is not hard at all. What is hard is giving up your clinging to logic as an answer. You must let go. It will take years only if you remain attached to an idea of what it is.
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.14.2012
03:25AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "First of all Koan studies are a Rinzai practice and I do Soto. Second I find it amusing that you recommend learning under a Zen teacher and then you pull out Krishnamurti, who does not teach Zen. Thirdly, the Abbott of my school and several teachers in Dharma talk repeatedly state that Zen is not about "not thinking". And fourth, if you read Dogen's teachings On the Great Wisdom that is Beyond discriminatory thought (Dogen being a central Zen/Chan teacher) you will find what I am speaking of. And finally, in my own direct experience, it is simply so. The stillness you seek comes from not discriminating between this is good this is bad, thinking bad, not thinking good. That is immediately dualistic. The immediate embrace of all your direct experiences tears down the duality of discrimination and leads to a non-dual experience. But as it says in Dogen's teachings, it is difficult for the intellect to understand. You can not argue this, I can not defend it, it is simply so if you do it. And as I always say, don't take my word for it, do it. "
.........
That is exactly "The stillness  you seek comes from not discriminating between this is good and this is bad, thinking bad, not thinking good. That is immediately dualistic."

How can you go beyond that.. It is exactly not thinking... Thinking is good and bad.. comparative thinking..
 
If you can stop thinking you have solve the problem of good and bad.
Thinking is dualistic. You can only go beyond duality by not thinking.

"
.........


You are almost there...but not quite.
Awareness before thinking. In the blinding light of your all seeing awareness your thinking is but a passing shadow and it does not take you for a ride. If you are not aware when thinking comes, then the thinking will ride you all over the place. Awareness does not discriminate, it does not say "no thinking", awareness reflects, "ah, here arrives this thought, and there it goes". Non-awarness on the other hand, when a thought arrives, immediately begins to play with it, to conceptualize about it, to swing it to another thought, and perhaps sets in motion physical reactions.
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.14.2012
03:33AM EDT 
vertical line Let me try this another way. It is "no-thinking" but is "no-thinking" by being aware of thinking so that you do not run away when thinking comes courting you. You are chaste and will not run off with the first thought that comes along to tempt you. Thoughts will always arise to court you and if you chose by your awareness to proceed then it is chosen and not unconscious, and then you chose to stop thinking on the subject. Then eventually other thoughts arise and you chose again to let it pass or engage it consciously. This is being AWAKE!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140884
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.14.2012
03:39AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Awareness does not reject anything, it sees the arising thought, reflects the thought, and it stops reflecting it when the thought is gone. Awareness is the mirror, undiscriminating in what it reflects. You know when awareness is gone, that is when you remember to watch your breathing again, and then, you are aware again. Breathing is incidental but it is a good lifeline when your mirror becomes clouded. The mirror will reflect, emotion, thoughts, dreams, and everything else that comes and goes. Eventually there is a slip that happens where thinking suddenly ceases. You can feel it, it feels like everything has gone quiet, even as it has not. This can not be made to happen, but there is something in the embrace of every thought, every fluttering and distracting imagining, and then letting it go as it arises, as you embrace it. Eventually the well of your pent up mental animations, runs dry, and you are pure here, pure now, pure being. And then you start thinking again. You can wash dishes being the pure act of washing dishes. You can walk to the bus stop, being the pure experience of walking to the bus stop, and what thoughts arise, arise and fall away as part of the experience. "
.........

Sometimes it is hard to tell if the person posting is just another person who has the intellectual understanding of seeing Buddha nature or whether the person has the actual realization. Being  a novice, I have no gauge to measure. So, I am here to not to debate but to learn.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 140885
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Reply from starduster
Aug.14.2012
03:40AM EDT 
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Quote: "Thinking is remembering or imagination. If you encounter something you retrieve it from your memory and compare it to what you see. So obviously you cannot think of something you have not encountered before. Like  emptiness. If you experience emptiness but if it does not compare on what you know, what you have read about emptiness it does not compute. So even if you experience emptiness as if it did not happen. Like wisdom you only know wisdom according to your knowledge of wisdom.

Suppose  you try to think of the unknown can you think about it.
This problem about thinking is what Zen is suppose to cure.
"
.........

Zen has no purpose, no objective, no design, thats the beauty of it.

Just being.

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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.14.2012
03:50AM EDT 
vertical line From what I have learned the first reaction the Buddha had after Awakening was something like; "There is no way people are going to get this, I may as well not even try to teach this." The mythological story goes that all sorts of beings begged the Buddha to teach his understanding. So, he started with the four noble truths. All this intellectual debate about this Wisdom is utilizing the very faculties which inhibit the experience of being a part of everything. We are all of us Buddhas, I have not only an intellectual understanding, but I have felt it. I know absolutely that everything Zen brings about, is true. I would not however call myself enlightened because I am only barely beginning to use my understanding to undo my karmic ties. If Buddha is Michael Phelps, I am out here dog peddling. Honestly, though, the water feels good and if this is all I get this lifetime, I would be more than happy. The greatest effort I have now, is to try to help other people, because when they do get this, they are helping me. We are that connected. And by the way, I would not recommend having your first "experience" without a teacher. You can save yourself a lifetime of misery, by simply having a teacher when that first time comes.
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Reply from starduster
Aug.14.2012
03:53AM EDT 
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Quote: "So why do sit in zazen and just do breath counting or awareness of the breath and face a blank wall.. That is exactly to stop you from your thoughts. In sesshin you do it for days.. and you need a kyosako.. to alleviate the stress on the shoulder... "
.........

Zazen, or any form of sitting or meditation, is not an end in itself.  Just a turning to go in another direction, like from outward to inward.

Why do you do it ?  To turn.

Momentum, inertia, carries you in the direction you are going, so you have to do something deliberate to break that and move differently.  So you turn and face the wall, not because there is anything particular to be gained from the wall, but to break the inertia of ordinary life.

Stopping the internal dialogue also breaks the inertia.  But mostly I just do it to relax. 

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Reply from starduster
Aug.14.2012
03:59AM EDT 
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I can remember thinking before I could talk.  I remember learning to talk.  How could one learn to talk without thinking ?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can remember thinking before I could talk, and I can remember thinking in words before I could talk English. 

Naturally I remember thinking in words as if they were English words, but they could not have been, because it was English that I needed to learn before I could talk or listen to others.

So I wonder what language I was thinking in.  I have been heard by a number of people, particularly ex wives, to speak in a foreign language in my sleep.  We were always going to put a tape recorder by the bed, but never got around to it.  I wonder what language that is.  I hear that it *sounds Asian*. 

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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.14.2012
04:02AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Thinking is remembering or imagination. If you encounter something you retrieve it from your memory and compare it to what you see. So obviously you cannot think of something you have not encountered before. Like  emptiness. If you experience emptiness but if it does not compare on what you know, what you have read about emptiness it does not compute. So even if you experience emptiness as if it did not happen. Like wisdom you only know wisdom according to your knowledge of wisdom.

Suppose  you try to think of the unknown can you think about it.
This problem about thinking is what Zen is suppose to cure.
"
.........


Zen has no purpose, no objective, no design, thats the beauty of it.


Just being.

"
.........

Actually I like that no purpose, no objective, no design...that simplicity is it...that is the danger in over describing the experience as I have already done here in this forum. It really is that simple. I am coming at this backward. I drove up the mountain, fell off and then spent years thinking "what was that?". Then as I began reading about Zen...I was like "THATS IT!". But from the other side, it was purely, just doing it and as a matter of fact, I think I need to go back to just "doing it". This has all been so tempting obviously. I guess in many ways, I want to pull other people with me. I can't do this by myself. It is why we dedicate our efforts to all living beings. You really get, that we are together in this. So, I will humbly bow out here and say, dismiss everything I have said, unless it serves you in some way and you can verify it for yourself. Don't just believe anything, anyone says, verify it. I wish you all the best...
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.14.2012
04:24AM EDT 
vertical line .........

Sometimes it is hard to tell if the person posting is just another person who has the intellectual understanding of seeing Buddha nature or whether the person has the actual realization. Being  a novice, I have no gauge to measure. So, I am here to not to debate but to learn.
"
.........

I have had a very large taste, my own direct experience. The secret is, to always be a novice however. You never need believe anything anyone says even if it is inspiring. The non-dual experience can be arrived at through methods other than Zen. Dzogchen, Mahamudra, to name just a few. So some of the preconceived notions being bantied about here are not incorrect per se, they are just not Zen as I have been taught.
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Reply from justin
Aug.14.2012
05:41AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "You are very close Leoj, but you are caught by a conceptual trap of 'not-thinking'. If you are aware before a thought arises, then you reflect the thought without becoming the thought and it passes without burden, cause of action, or repetition. These arising mental flotsam and jetsom cause all sorts of havok on an unaware mind. An aware mind however simply sees and does not react to. Eventually as you widen this experience of being before thought, then your thoughts are direct and not discursive or jumping from topic to topic. Thoughts which are willed when you are aware, serve purpose without being fantasy or construct. Pure all embracing awareness which is gentle yet firm and you will find what it is you are seeking. "
.........

I think you are right, this is true. I call it upstream of thought. To be aware of the thing before it has become the thing. (the thought, the feeling, the reasons). not to provent it just to be aware of it. However if you are aware of it then it looses the ability to distract mind, the monkey chatter ceases naturally. So in a sense no-thought is something we may cling to, but wisdom takes it away anyway. without any effort. so the end result is the same, no-thought.
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Reply from justin
Aug.14.2012
05:49AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "You are very close Leoj, but you are caught by a conceptual trap of 'not-thinking'. If you are aware before a thought arises, then you reflect the thought without becoming the thought and it passes without burden, cause of action, or repetition. These arising mental flotsam and jetsom cause all sorts of havok on an unaware mind. An aware mind however simply sees and does not react to. Eventually as you widen this experience of being before thought, then your thoughts are direct and not discursive or jumping from topic to topic. Thoughts which are willed when you are aware, serve purpose without being fantasy or construct. Pure all embracing awareness which is gentle yet firm and you will find what it is you are seeking. "
.........

I think you are right, this is true. I call it upstream of thought. To be aware of the thing before it has become the thing. (the thought, the feeling, the reasons). not to provent it just to be aware of it. However if you are aware of it then it looses the ability to distract mind, the monkey chatter ceases naturally. So in a sense no-thought is something we may cling to, but wisdom takes it away anyway. without any effort. so the end result is the same, no-thought.
"
.........
This idea is expanded in a way with the idea of becoming more sutle in your 'things' you can see anger coming before it is anger, you can see fear before it is fear. In this way the 'thing' looses its strength to distract because you are allways aware of what the thing is. (before it is solidified into a thing).
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Reply from starduster
Aug.14.2012
06:55AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Thinking is remembering or imagination. If you encounter something you retrieve it from your memory and compare it to what you see. So obviously you cannot think of something you have not encountered before. Like  emptiness. If you experience emptiness but if it does not compare on what you know, what you have read about emptiness it does not compute. So even if you experience emptiness as if it did not happen. Like wisdom you only know wisdom according to your knowledge of wisdom.

Suppose  you try to think of the unknown can you think about it.
This problem about thinking is what Zen is suppose to cure.
"
.........


Zen has no purpose, no objective, no design, thats the beauty of it.


Just being.

"
.........

Actually I like that no purpose, no objective, no design...that simplicity is it...that is the danger in over describing the experience as I have already done here in this forum. It really is that simple. I am coming at this backward. I drove up the mountain, fell off and then spent years thinking "what was that?". Then as I began reading about Zen...I was like "THATS IT!". But from the other side, it was purely, just doing it and as a matter of fact, I think I need to go back to just "doing it". This has all been so tempting obviously. I guess in many ways, I want to pull other people with me. I can't do this by myself. It is why we dedicate our efforts to all living beings. You really get, that we are together in this. So, I will humbly bow out here and say, dismiss everything I have said, unless it serves you in some way and you can verify it for yourself. Don't just believe anything, anyone says, verify it. I wish you all the best..."
.........

"
.........

Actually I like that no purpose, no objective, no design...that simplicity is it...that is the danger in over describing the experience as I have already done here in this forum. It really is that simple. I am coming at this backward. I drove up the mountain, fell off and then spent years thinking "what was that?". Then as I began reading about Zen...I was like "THATS IT!". But from the other side, it was purely, just doing it and as a matter of fact, I think I need to go back to just "doing it". This has all been so tempting obviously. I guess in many ways, I want to pull other people with me. I can't do this by myself. It is why we dedicate our efforts to all living beings. You really get, that we are together in this. So, I will humbly bow out here and say, dismiss everything I have said, unless it serves you in some way and you can verify it for yourself. Don't just believe anything, anyone says, verify it. I wish you all the best...
"
.........

If you said something then there must have been something to say.  No regrets.

I did not seek awakening, nirvana, satori, whatever.  I was not sitting, I was meditating, astral travelling, and then one day, whoooosh !! 

I had read about Zen in Eugene Herrigels books, but it hadnt made much sense to me.  Now suddenly it did, so I finally took an interest in Zen beyond common curiousity.

Herrigel first wrote *The Method of Zen*, but when people couldnt understand what he was trying to say he wrote the more popular *Zen in the Art of Archery*. 

Here in this forum we often try to put into words that which cannot be put into words.  So when there is criticism of the shortcomings of what I or others may say, I just blow it off, because I know that none of us can explain what someone else may yet not have experienced.

The first explorers to return to the East and describe the Grand Canyon were ridiculed and mocked for making up such a fantastic tale and trying to fool everyone.  Yet today the Grand Canyon national park hosts over a million visitors per year.  No one any longer doubts its existence, they just plan to visit some day.  Just as people who have not yet experienced nirvana or satori should not doubt the experience of others, but simply look forward to their own visit to the Void some day.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.14.2012
06:56AM EDT 
vertical line Ask a teacher.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.14.2012
07:01AM EDT 
vertical line The idea is - and I'm sorry but I didn't read all the lengthy moments - that the foregoing is just one long vanity project. Perhaps you'd benefit from forgetting what you've been told and what you're trying to foist on others, and when you've unlearned everything you think you know, you'll remember All. And don't ask me how you did it. I'm just privileged to be here with you and thank you for the next feature.
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.14.2012
02:00PM EDT 
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"
.........
This idea is expanded in a way with the idea of becoming more sutle in your 'things' you can see anger coming before it is anger, you can see fear before it is fear. In this way the 'thing' looses its strength to distract because you are allways aware of what the thing is. (before it is solidified into a thing).
"
.........

Yes, yes that is how it felt.  But even here the journey is not over.  When you wake up you notice this power to not fall into the karmic gravity that these thoughts and feelings try to automate within you.  Just a sliver of pride can build from this experience and that sliver may as well be the tiny ice pick that shatters a glacier (the glacier being your preconceived notion of your progress).  All of the petty karmic temptations in a day to day life are easy to let go of. It is the larger ones, like the death of your mother, the loss of a first love, for example.  These larger ones will and can humble you.  This part may sound superstitious, to me at least, but it seemed as if my sudden awakening invited a challenge.  Multiple events of a great karmic attachment suddenly dropped in front of me.  And I fell, ran away, and took years to understand why.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.14.2012
02:20PM EDT 
vertical line Death is not an attractive idea for the ego.
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.14.2012
02:39PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "The idea is - and I'm sorry but I didn't read all the lengthy moments - that the foregoing is just one long vanity project. Perhaps you'd benefit from forgetting what you've been told and what you're trying to foist on others, and when you've unlearned everything you think you know, you'll remember All. And don't ask me how you did it. I'm just privileged to be here with you and thank you for the next feature. "


.........


Insert song clip here: artist: Queen song: The Show Must Go On!

By the way if a mythological creature walked out of the woods, gently touched you and then went back.  Immediately after you would know, that was all real.  As time went on and no one believed you, you would wonder, was that real?  You learn to stop talking about it, even as you catch glimpses of it in the forest.  Then one day it walks right up to you again and touches you gently then walks away again.  And you cry becasue you realize "ah ha!" "I am not crazy after-all."  But what was it, how, why did it happen, and is there something wrong with the rest of the world that they do not see, what is right here for anyone who has eyes?  You can not help but think that the rest of the world is so blinded by their notion of what is and what is not that they can not see the magic that is right there. You try to show people but they either refuse outright, or simply argue why it is not so, and begin to analyze what is wrong with you.  It is a tremendously lonely feeling.  One day a guy walks up to me and he knows what I am talking about.  He walks me to the Forrest and on command he causes to happen, what I must be patient about and let happen. After all of that is over he teaches you and leaves you to practice.  I still can not do what he did, but, I can feel I am at last on the right path.  The truth is, I really need to stop talking about it again, and just keep doing it.  I am part of a group who practices now.  And even though they have never seen the mytholgical creature, they believe, and it is sufficent for me to be among those who, have faith. But i can't force my experience on them, nor anyone else. we open our eyes when we are ready.
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Reply from so_teh
Aug.14.2012
04:39PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Zzzzzz's and Ommmmm's
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Reply from boymonk
Aug.14.2012
05:10PM EDT 
vertical line I think, therefor "you" are?
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Reply from justin
Aug.14.2012
09:02PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line This whole world with ideas of karma of the aggregates, of Buddha, of reality (hahaha I love that one), of 32 signs, of noble truths, of eightfold path,Of suffering is all contained in this head.

Which means the realizing (which is not at all) the relaxed contraction/exertion which is knowing, is in this head !

All explanations, all thought verbally, physically, emotionally expressed are all decided in this head.

It really is an amazing show
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.15.2012
12:11AM EDT 
vertical line Like so many people like to play with the koan: "What is the sound of one hand clapping." And this koan is one of the miscellaneous koans. It is said miscellaneous since they are one of the easy koans. It is like a quiz compared to a real exam.

The answers that people put forward are all mostly thinking of the answer. There are maybe about 1,001 answers that were put up by thinking. But in spite of the numerous answers I think none will be accepted by a Roshi. But most people who have thought of the answers think they are correct. They think they are correct yet it is a real doubt weather the answer is really right. That is the nature of thinking you know the answers but you can never be sure if the answer is right or not.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.15.2012
01:59AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Read that there is no right answer or wrong answer to a Koan.
As long as the answer comes from a disciple who meditated with right effort, it will show the teacher, Roshi, Zen master, where the disciple is at .. in his progress.
Read here (ZenGuide.com), "How can you free a man who is stuck in a well without using an inch of rope?". That one makes more sense to me than the sound of one hand clapping.
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.15.2012
02:10AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Read that there is no right answer or wrong answer to a Koan.
As long as the answer comes from a disciple who meditated with right effort, it will show the teacher, Roshi, Zen master, where the disciple is at .. in his progress.
Read here (ZenGuide.com), "How can you free a man who is stuck in a well without using an inch of rope?". That one makes more sense to me than the sound of one hand clapping.
"
.........

How?
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.15.2012
02:25AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Read that there is no right answer or wrong answer to a Koan.
As long as the answer comes from a disciple who meditated with right effort, it will show the teacher, Roshi, Zen master, where the disciple is at .. in his progress.
Read here (ZenGuide.com), "How can you free a man who is stuck in a well without using an inch of rope?". That one makes more sense to me than the sound of one hand clapping.
"
.........

How?
"
.........
How? What?
You want the answer to the one about the man in the well??
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.15.2012
02:27AM EDT 
vertical line How do you help a man who is trapped in a well without using an inch of rope?

Easy, you use a rope that is in excess of an inch. 


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Reply from leoj99
Aug.15.2012
03:38AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "How do you help a man who is trapped in a well without using an inch of rope?

Easy, you use a rope that is in excess of an inch. 


"
.........

Very good... but are you sure? lol
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Reply from starduster
Aug.15.2012
04:54AM EDT 
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Quote: "Quote: "The idea is - and I'm sorry but I didn't read all the lengthy moments - that the foregoing is just one long vanity project. Perhaps you'd benefit from forgetting what you've been told and what you're trying to foist on others, and when you've unlearned everything you think you know, you'll remember All. And don't ask me how you did it. I'm just privileged to be here with you and thank you for the next feature. "


.........


Insert song clip here: artist: Queen song: The Show Must Go On!

By the way if a mythological creature walked out of the woods, gently touched you and then went back.  Immediately after you would know, that was all real.  As time went on and no one believed you, you would wonder, was that real?  You learn to stop talking about it, even as you catch glimpses of it in the forest.  Then one day it walks right up to you again and touches you gently then walks away again.  And you cry becasue you realize "ah ha!" "I am not crazy after-all."  But what was it, how, why did it happen, and is there something wrong with the rest of the world that they do not see, what is right here for anyone who has eyes?  You can not help but think that the rest of the world is so blinded by their notion of what is and what is not that they can not see the magic that is right there. You try to show people but they either refuse outright, or simply argue why it is not so, and begin to analyze what is wrong with you.  It is a tremendously lonely feeling.  One day a guy walks up to me and he knows what I am talking about.  He walks me to the Forrest and on command he causes to happen, what I must be patient about and let happen. After all of that is over he teaches you and leaves you to practice.  I still can not do what he did, but, I can feel I am at last on the right path.  The truth is, I really need to stop talking about it again, and just keep doing it.  I am part of a group who practices now.  And even though they have never seen the mytholgical creature, they believe, and it is sufficent for me to be among those who, have faith. But i can't force my experience on them, nor anyone else. we open our eyes when we are ready.
"
.........

One day, sitting in the park, I noticed a lot of crows were cawing in a tree over what appeared to be a street person sleeping below.  He seemed to take no notice of them.  I thought it odd and turned off my internal dialogue to relax and watch.

About that time a man walked past me, somewhat sheepishly as if trying to sneak past me, and sat down on a bench in front of me, also facing the man and the crows.  I had seen him before on the subway and it seemed that he was watching me for some reason.  We both appeared to be local office workers in DC.

I returned my attention to the man lying in the grass below the crows, which were still cawing loudly.  This went on for another minute or two when suddenly the man rose up on his elbows, looked at his hands as if to verify he was really there, looked over at us, and then slumped back into the grass with a look of resignation.  The crows all stopped cawing and flew away simultaneously.

The man on the bench in front of me turned around and looked at me, beaming a broad smile.  I looked back, smiled slightly, and nodded my head to confirm that I had seen what he had seen.  Then he got up and left the park, walking past me again, but this time with an apparent feeling of accomplishment.  I don't know what he saw, or even if he saw the same thing I saw, but he was happy about it.

He and I never met or spoke, and I don't think I ever saw him again, but we shared that experience in the park that day, and I sure he remembers it too.

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Reply from starduster
Aug.15.2012
05:22AM EDT 
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Quote: "The idea is - and I'm sorry but I didn't read all the lengthy moments - that the foregoing is just one long vanity project. Perhaps you'd benefit from forgetting what you've been told and what you're trying to foist on others, and when you've unlearned everything you think you know, you'll remember All. And don't ask me how you did it. I'm just privileged to be here with you and thank you for the next feature. "
.........

I love to write.  It used to be my job, all day everyday.  But now I work with numbers, and this is one of few opportunities to write.  But I dont mean to foist anything on anyone, I'm just rambling annecdotally I suppose.

I have nothing to foist.  What applies to me personally, between me and the Spirit doesnt seem to apply to anyone else.  Im just living a life, and when its over Im going back into the Void with the Spirit, into my own plane of existence.  The Spirit tells me I will spend an eternity there with It, in an essential *holodeck* of my own.  Sounds good to me.  I dont know what all of the rest of you will be doing, I dont care, because its not my problem.

What the All has in store for you personally is between you and the Spirit.  Maybe your own plane of existence.  Maybe non-existence. There is no limit to how many planes of existence the Spirit can create, all within Itself, All, like layers of an onion, separate yet all One.

I remember All.  I remember being All when there was nothing else and never had been.  There is not much to think about there.  Its just one all encompassing thing.  A sort of baseline of existence.  It is a lot more fun to think about all that the All is being.  It creates us, our circumstances, and poses problems for us to solve.  Thats exciting, and even moreso if you understand the All, because then it is interactive.  Kind of like an interactive game, yet a bit like solitaire, since all is One, and One is All.

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Reply from starduster
Aug.15.2012
05:28AM EDT 
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Quote: "How do you help a man who is trapped in a well without using an inch of rope?

Easy, you use a rope that is in excess of an inch. 


"
.........

Easier still, teach him how to tread water.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.15.2012
05:34AM EDT 
vertical line Let's be clear on this. You trundled your bundlea in whole earth removala into the well. Foisted not forced. A felt experience which may or may not correspond to your ego's desires insofar as the viewing point is perceived as separate from the thing that is felt/seen. In the well, ideas gushing from words, you are thirsty continually forever.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.15.2012
01:10PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "How do you help a man who is trapped in a well without using an inch of rope?
.........

Easy, you use a rope that is in excess of an inch. 

.........

Easier still, teach him how to tread water.

.........

The question is not help the man who is trapped in a well without using an inch of rope.
It is "How can you free a man who is stuck in a well without using an inch of rope?"

So, the answer is to get the man to see his true nature. Then he will be free.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.15.2012
01:11PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Truly sorry for that one.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.15.2012
01:22PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I have nothing to foist.  What applies to me personally, between me and the Spirit doesnt seem to apply to anyone else.  Im just living a life, and when its over Im going back into the Void with the Spirit, into my own plane of existence.  The Spirit tells me I will spend an eternity there with It, in an essential *holodeck* of my own.  Sounds good to me.  I dont know what all of the rest of you will be doing, I dont care, because its not my problem.

".........

I have heard about some who have come back to this world to teach others to find Satori or enlightenment. Something about beings full of compassion. Won't you care about the rest of us?? **tears in my eyes**
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Reply from starduster
Aug.16.2012
05:54AM EDT 
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Quote: "Quote: "How do you help a man who is trapped in a well without using an inch of rope?
.........

Easy, you use a rope that is in excess of an inch. 

.........

Easier still, teach him how to tread water.

.........

The question is not help the man who is trapped in a well without using an inch of rope.
It is "How can you free a man who is stuck in a well without using an inch of rope?"

So, the answer is to get the man to see his true nature. Then he will be free.
"
.........

So I suppose throwing him a floatation device, like a large rubber duckie, would be out of the question ?

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Reply from starduster
Aug.16.2012
06:04AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "I have nothing to foist.  What applies to me personally, between me and the Spirit doesnt seem to apply to anyone else.  Im just living a life, and when its over Im going back into the Void with the Spirit, into my own plane of existence.  The Spirit tells me I will spend an eternity there with It, in an essential *holodeck* of my own.  Sounds good to me.  I dont know what all of the rest of you will be doing, I dont care, because its not my problem.

".........

I have heard about some who have come back to this world to teach others to find Satori or enlightenment. Something about beings full of compassion. Won't you care about the rest of us?? **tears in my eyes**
"
.........

"
.........

I only care about the Spirit, and she can reveal herself to whomever she wishes whenever she wishes.  It doesn't come from flowers in sermons or through bodisatvas.  Thats illusion.  Fitting it into the story the Spirit is making up.

Cause has no real effect, thats just smoke and mirrors.  The Spirit is being everything and everyone, all the time.  It can be as It wishes. 

There have been a couple of people who attributed their awakening to my help, but thats just illusion.  Only the Spirit can do that.  There is only One source, and everything comes from It.

Naturally there are those I love, and I feel compassion when I see pain, but it is always within the matrix of creation presented by the Spirit.  I help when I can, when its right in front of me, but I dont look for love to share or pain to heal.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.16.2012
03:18PM EDT 
vertical line Dear Sir,
Felix will follow my silent command.
Yours Oh Buoy
[Inertness guaranteed]
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.17.2012
04:12AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Naturally there are those I love, and I feel compassion when I see pain, but it is always within the matrix of creation presented by the Spirit.  I help when I can, when its right in front of me, but I dont look for love to share or pain to heal.

"
.........

I am still attached .. with clinging and such .. so when I see love, I wish to share and when I see pain, I wish I could heal. Is that compassion or just another thing to work on?? Am I fool to care about others??

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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.17.2012
05:49AM EDT 
vertical line If you're happy, the whole world rejoices, so be careful around those feeders.
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Reply from justin
Aug.17.2012
10:09AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Naturally there are those I love, and I feel compassion when I see pain, but it is always within the matrix of creation presented by the Spirit.  I help when I can, when its right in front of me, but I dont look for love to share or pain to heal.

"
.........

I am still attached .. with clinging and such .. so when I see love, I wish to share and when I see pain, I wish I could heal. Is that compassion or just another thing to work on?? Am I fool to care about others??
"
.........

Avisitor, this compassion Is real! It is prob one of the only real things. U will learn how to discern the way people get themselves into much misery they could avoid. However the more u learn the more compassion will be in u. Because really if I don't exist and neither dies anything I imagine. All I have left is compassion :) do u see??
Further, compasion is one of the most acute sufferings, u have found my suffering decreases for myself and increases for others equally. But there is a secret, feeling compassion for others takes u out of your own head and own stuff, so it illeviates self concern.

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Reply from justin
Aug.17.2012
10:12AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Compassion for others (and self) is, far FrOm being something to avoid, I would suggest it is the only thing worth doing!!!
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Reply from justin
Aug.17.2012
10:16AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Compassion is empathy, it us understanding, helpfulness, realizing we are all just trying our best. It is not elevation above others, it is not lying, steeling, drinking, improper sex, or killing.
It is understanding we are all together, we all feel, we all suffer, compassion is about unity, and love.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.17.2012
11:42AM EDT 
vertical line Dive.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.17.2012
05:56PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Compassion for others (and self) is, far FrOm being something to avoid, I would suggest it is the only thing worth doing!!! "
.........

Thanks. I will remember that ... and maybe use it word for word .. someday??
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.17.2012
06:36PM EDT 
vertical line What is your question?
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.17.2012
06:39PM EDT 
vertical line You speak the continual interrogative?? Why use ? when ?? or even ???will do just as well????
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.17.2012
08:29PM EDT 
vertical line Compassion;

You are currently divorced from yourself through a little self. When you re-integrate with yourself, all these parts you thought were not you, you are suddenly as concerned for as if they were your own self. You can not manufacture this experience. The moment you feel that sense of re-connection, it is there. Though I have suspected that some forms of Buddhism actually invite the manufactured experience of this in order to illicit the real experience of this. Like Tantra or Tonglen.
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Reply from boymonk
Aug.17.2012
09:24PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Compassion for others (and self) is, far FrOm being something to avoid, I would suggest it is the only thing worth doing!!! "
.........

Thanks. I will remember that ... and maybe use it word for word .. someday??
"
.........

Give credit where credit is due, that is all we ask of you.
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.18.2012
11:37PM EDT 
vertical line Did anyone realized that there are liquor stores in so many street corners. It seems people need to get drunk because they can't normally handle their thinking minds. 
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Reply from zenmanstan
Aug.19.2012
01:01AM EDT 
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vertical line joe chip the only prerequisite to enlightenment is happiness???
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Reply from boymonk
Aug.19.2012
03:07AM EDT 
vertical line The only prerequisite to happiness is a good bottle of Jim Beam.
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.19.2012
03:36AM EDT 
vertical line Isn't thinking causes lots of stress in the body and mind. You are already so stressed out and still you love to think and think. You think but don't even  know what you are thinking.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.19.2012
07:07AM EDT 
vertical line Breathe.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.19.2012
07:23AM EDT 
vertical line Happiness? Happiness runs out too.

The arrow of happiness, like a pointer flies, to the flower of Joy.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.19.2012
08:38AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "joe chip the only prerequisite to enlightenment is happiness??? "
.........

The only prerequisite to happiness is awareness
The only prerequisite to enlightenment is awareness

Now, all you need is practice, practice, practice ...
oh wait,  ... that way the way to Carnegie Hall. Oooopps
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.19.2012
08:45AM EDT 
vertical line There is no prerequisite for awareness.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.19.2012
08:48AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "There is no prerequisite for awareness."
.........

Depends on what type of awareness you are talking about.
Human awareness ... you need to be human
Animal awareness ... you need to be an animal ... well some people are animals
Sorry, I was wrong ....**holds head down**
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.19.2012
08:49AM EDT 
vertical line Be a passerby.
Presence will not pass.

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Reply from leoj99
Aug.19.2012
11:34AM EDT 
vertical line If you say awareness what are you aware of?
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.19.2012
12:10PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "If you say awareness what are you aware of? "
.........

What would you like to be aware of??
You can probably find it in the internet ...
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.19.2012
12:53PM EDT 
vertical line The l-imitations of a ware ness.
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Reply from starduster
Aug.20.2012
06:15AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "If you say awareness what are you aware of? "
.........

Presence, that has always been and will not pass,

and how horrible it is to be alone, to have always been alone,

and except for the machinations of ones own imagination,

to know that one will always be alone.

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Reply from leoj99
Aug.21.2012
02:00AM EDT 
vertical line Thinking.

I think thinking has not solved Buddha Nature yet. Thinking has not solved Emptiness yet. Are they both the same?.. Not solved yet. ...
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.21.2012
03:23AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Thinking.

I think thinking has not solved Buddha Nature yet. Thinking has not solved Emptiness yet. Are they both the same?.. Not solved yet. ...
"
.........

Was there a question??
Are they both the same??
What difference does it make??
Aren't you the one who complains about all the thinking going on??
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.21.2012
05:58AM EDT 
vertical line Blip blippety blip blap blop blop.
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.28.2012
07:28PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Thinking.

I think thinking has not solved Buddha Nature yet. Thinking has not solved Emptiness yet. Are they both the same?.. Not solved yet. ...


"
.........

They need to be solved?
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.28.2012
07:35PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "If you say awareness what are you aware of?

"
.........

Awareness = a mirror (metaphorically of course)
A mirror reflects everything without discrimination.

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Reply from boymonk
Aug.28.2012
08:21PM EDT 
vertical line Oh yeah, what about vampires Mr. SmartyMan?
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Reply from simple
Aug.28.2012
08:31PM EDT 
Email simple
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All the vampires that i know is dead. :)

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Reply from simple
Aug.28.2012
08:38PM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line ops i missed from my mouth
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Reply from simple
Aug.28.2012
09:04PM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line i dont even have a dog
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.29.2012
05:39AM EDT 
vertical line Your dog left his spoor on the Rock of Ages.
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Reply from simple
Aug.29.2012
06:09AM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line bow down
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.29.2012
06:30AM EDT 
vertical line In a war-zone - we don't need a bungalow with roses round the door - help us buy a shelter. [Who the hell makes those missiles?]
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.29.2012
06:40AM EDT 
vertical line Missiles
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Reply from starduster
Aug.29.2012
10:57AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "In a war-zone - we don't need a bungalow with roses round the door - help us buy a shelter. [Who the hell makes those missiles?]"
.........

Daddy Warbucks, so he can send little Annie to camp.

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Reply from leoj99
Aug.30.2012
01:37AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Thinking.

I think thinking has not solved Buddha Nature yet. Thinking has not solved Emptiness yet. Are they both the same?.. Not solved yet. ...


"
.........

They need to be solved?
"
.......

Who told you it should not be solved.?
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