How are any of the responsorial postings relevant if they are: neither the answer, nor are they not the answer.

What do you reckon? 

Quote: "That is pretty easy enough, using simple logic. The "You" or the "I" can not perceive the experience of being one with "All". "
.........

It is what It is, and It aint what It aint.

The only difference betwen Nirvana and Satori seems to be

whether or not you believe that to be your own conscious choice.

But then you would have to take personal responsibility for everything,

so the difference is likely whether or not you are willing t do that.

The danger of knowing, or thinking that you know,

is that it is so damned limiting that you are bound to be wrong.

But often, as with in Science, there is no admission of being wrong,

just the immediate adoption of the new *right*.

Like when DNA unlimately showed that Neandertals and Cro Magnons were not related,

we did not hear any great singing about how the theories of evolution from Neandertal to Cro Magnon had been disproved.  They just tore down the posters of the progression from ape to man and started afresh as if nothing had happened.  Convenient.

With knowledge there is no understanding,

and with understanding there is no knowledge.

You cant be wrong until you settle on a conclusion,

and then its just a matter of time.

Your ideas about nirvana and satori have little to do with nirvana or satori. Little to do even with the definitions ascribed to them in the teachings over thousands of years. What are you talking about??? Your own ideas. (esoteric)

------------------------------------

Ive heard a few satori stories, and no two alike, yet all lead to the same *undertstanding* of *Things as It is*, aka *dependent arising*.

You do not have *understanding*.  You have knowledge that you have learned and accumulated over time, and therefore feel that you have accomplished something.  You have integrated religious history into your memory circuits.

You dont know nothing yet.  (pun intended)

If what someone says doesnt fit with your parroting of what you have learned then you dont get it, dont understand it, and therefore it must be wrong, and of course then you must be right.  The bottom line is that you must be right.

Maybe thats the problem, esoteric, you dont have any ideas of your own.

What you have is your own interpretation of others ideas.

And thats what you should have.  So, no problem.

Oh, clearly I stand *corrected* again, by a precocious monk who does not respect his elders.

My ideas *have nothing to do with nirvana or satori*.  I would agree with that.  Its all an illusion, except that which you believe in, which is delusion.  Nirvana or satori help you to pick your delusions more carefully, thats all.  Someone said to me here once that satori was like remembering a sandwich that he ate 25 years before. 

Its all just something to do.  Im just dealing with what comes my way, in my own way.

You know about nirvana or satori because you have learned about them in teachings thousands of years old.

I only know what I have experienced myself, although I too have read about them, and talked with others who have also had experiences similar to my own.

So you are *knowledgeable*.  Good for you.  Id still rather have one experience than a thousand pages of text.

youre reliable.  I can always count on you for an argument, because just as you have always been all your life, you must be right !!  Its a compulsion.

I could be wrong just going by what I have experienced.  Even though others have had similar experiences.  I only know of one text that discusses what happens with a monk after satori, which is Zen in the Art of Archery by Eugene Herrigel, and which seems to correspond with my own subsequent meditations. 

I read Herrigel before satori, years before, and it made no sense to me at that time.  Only when I came back to it after awakening did it add up, and then I became interested in Zen.  Then I came to Zenguide Forum looking for other awakened people, and have found a few, here and elsewhere. 

They agree with me in theory and with you in practice, so which of us is right ?  I agree with you in practice too, Im just saying that it is not all about practice.  A train has a locomotive, cars, and a track, but without somewhere to go, or even not go, all the component parts are meaningless.  Practice is just a function.  Its what comes to you in practice that means something.

So what is the right answer ?  I dont believe there is a right answer.  It may be that there is only the *understanding* that there is no right answer.

Einstein said the answer was *energy*, everything is made of energy.  Maybe that is the right answer.  He was pretty smart you know, but not infallible.  He advocated Socialism in Germany, but when the National Socialist Part took over (Nazis) he had to flee to the US for protection.

I dont even think *energy* is the right answer.  Thats just one of an infinite number of possibilities that make all answers stop short.  What is that which can be anything?  What is its nature ?  What is its essence ?  Id say, *Nothing in particular*, but that would be just another short sighted answer, Im sure.

A Senator went to visit the indian reservation, and while there they honored him with the name *Walking Eagle*. 

After he left, they laughed among themselves that a walking eagle is a bird too full of crap to fly.

Keep it up, Walking Eagle.  Its more obvious than you know that you dont know nothing yet.  You cant see that because you dont see It.

I once had an opportunity to play chess with a guy who was rated #2 in the country.  I knew I wouldnt win, but anticipated a great game.

The say sitting down at the table with Bobby Fischer was like sitting down with a leopard.  I got the same *feeling* from this guy.  An intense drive to win.  The game of chess was just a means toward that, a method of that madness.  He couldnt have cared less about the game itself.

I get the same feeling from you, esoteric.  And history bears it out, recalling that when you came here you announced that you had *the Truth* and would benevolently share it with us. 

The you argued with Chon Tri a great deal.  And then you gave in, evidently concluding that Chon Tri was right.  Since then you have simply been parrotting things that Chon Tri has said, but without his depth of understanding.  You just know Chon Tri is right, so by repeating things Chon Tri has said then you too must be right.

As long as you are right, thats all that matters to you, right ?  I feel from you an intense drive to be *Right*, and that you feel that you have that.  Good for you, no problem with that if it makes you happy.

But you can get off my back, scorpion, Im not giving you a ride.  Youre a fraud, and thats even worse than being wrong.

Quote: ""Oh, once I played chess with a top rated chess player! I also played chess with Satan! I have talked to Jesus! I can read minds, travel to other planes of existence, and talk to angels and demons!  I can have sex any time I wish to, but I choose not to! I have had so many experiences, wonderful wonderful experiences! I am a magic man and can make anything happen!!!"

And yet you're not happy. Why is that?
"
.........

Who said I wasnt happy ?  Im happy with the Spirit, the rest is incidental.  I had a rough beginning in life, but things have worked out in the long run.  I suppose thats the point.  If you dont find what you need outside yourself, look inside.

I have shared a lot of personal stuff here, but I havent lied.  Ive just shared.  Thats a choice.  But I never said I was a magic man who could make anything happen.  I have said that I used to think I was a shaman who was gaining personal power, but in a flash of *awakening* I learned that I have no power, and never did.  Only the One has power.

You have shared too, like when you said you were going to leave your family and go on the road as a bodhisattva to share your wisdom with the poor downtrodden people of the world who need you more.  What happened to that idea ?

Quote: ""Oh, I wasn't really my parents' child, I was a walk-in. My mother never loved me because she said I wasn't really her child, and she and my brother tried to kill me for the first several years of my life. It was rough, but I learned to be a survivor and watch my back at all times. I have gotten into lots of fights. I have loved many women, but they all left me. I saw many painful things in my career in Washington DC. So now, I live a quiet life holed up all by myself in my little corner of the world that I carved out. I'm getting old, and my body doesn't work so great any more, and there's still lots of pain. So many horrible horrible experiences."

And yet, you say that you are not sad or angry. Why is that?
"
.........

This is pretty accurate except the part about women leaving me.  Im on good terms with all of my exes except my first wife.  She is unhappy that she has not been able to get remarried in the Catholic Church since we were married there.  I volunteered to write to the church and say it was all my fault, I had my fingers crossed, etc, so she could get the annulment she needs, but havent heard back from her.

There are things in my past that I feel sad when I think about.  But not angry.  I disassociate myself from things that make me angry.  Actually, anger is the child of fear, so whenever I feel anger I ask myself, *What am I afraid of ?*  Then I face the fear, it disappears, and the anger goes with it, 

The only one left from my childhood of terror is my brother, and we are estranged.  I asked him some time ago if he remembered all the times he tried to kill me, and he said of course he did.  I asked him how he felt about that, and he said no big deal, lots of older siblings try to kill off the younger ones.  He said its just the way it was back then, get over it.

Then I saw an interview with a former Nazi SS officer, and he was asked how he felt about all the Jews he had killed.  He said it was not big deal, *You had to be zere, its just da vey it vas back zen.*  Yeah, sure, I thought to myself, unless you were a Jew, or me, struggling to survive at the hands of evil.  So then I broke off relations with my brother.  That was my choice, and I made it.  Sticking to it too.

*ex-wife*, sorry to hear that.  Last I recall hearing, you were still at home with your family.

There is nothing wrong about what you are doing, its a fine kettle of fish.  As long as it works for you thats all that matters. 

Silence is golden, and simplicity comes in second to that. 

If you try to pass on to others what works for you, assuming that what works for you should work for everyone, you may do more harm than good.  If you can help someone to realize what it is that works for them, that is helping.  Illogical ?  Maybe, but whats right is what works, not necessarily what we think it should be.

When you came here you also spoke of a *watcher within - who was real, and was not you*, as per my best recollection.  What has happened with that relationship ?  Has it gone by the wayside ?

When you came here you also spoke of a *watcher within - who was real, and was not you*, as per my best recollection.  What has happened with that relationship ?  Has it gone by the wayside ?

"
.........

See there? You got a bunch of ideas again.

When I came here, I read your message. And now I'm writing this one. :-)

-------------------------------------

In the past, Ive asked you to stay away from me.  But you have insisted on communicating with me, so Im obliging you.

I can always count on you for an argument, because of your defensive personality.  A zen monk has nothing to defend, but you havent figured that out yet.  Its not really that you have to be right all the time, but moreso that this is a feature of a compulsion of defensiveness.  Ask your ex-wife.  Im sure she will agree.

You are probably a good chess player.  I recall my chess teacher saying, *Its not the best offense that wins in chess, its the best defense.*  Also why it is said, *Lucky in cards, unlucky in love.*

My question about the *watcher* you once spoke of is sincere.  If I recall correctly, you said there was this watcher within you, who was not you, but who helped you and provided you with information, etc.

This registered with me because of my own relationship with the one I know as the Spirit, who has been with me, in me, since June of 1972.  I recall the particular day and event quite clearly because she was inside someone else when I found her, and has been in me ever since.  For all intents and purposes, we are essentially married.

At first I didnt know what to make of it and asked, *Are you my guardian angel ?*, to which she replied, *You could say that.*  But over time it has come to be much more than that.  After being in the Void with her, nothing in existence except us, both as formless spirits, she asked, *Now do you know who you are married to ?*  Yes, my Self.  I created me for Me.  And thats all I really need to know.

So you have found what works for you, what relieves your suffering, and I have found what works for me.  Neither of us needs to change the other, or be defensive about what we have.  A zen monk has nothing to defend.  It is what it is, and it aint what it aint.  We have what comes to us, and that is all there is, for us.

You are.

Ive tried to open up a dialogue, at your bidding,

but youre an ass hole.

Thank you.  By the way, Im an ass hole too, especially when I think someone else is being one.  I tend to respond in like kind.

I used to think my *Spirit* within was a manifestation of my subconscious mind, especially since I have done considerable work with self-hypnosis.  Until she manifested things outside too, and told me about it ahead of time.  Whoever or whatever spiritual entity she is, she has proven her existence to me many times, so I have to believe in her. 

Anyway, it has come down to where she loves me and I love her, and she says we will be together forever in the Void, so Im going with that.  She says I might as well think of her as my wife because thats the way it is always going to be, so I do.  Im happy with that.

If you find something that makes you happy, and promises eternal life as well, then I think thats great.  Actually, I met her two years before taking up meditation on a daily basis, but our relationship didnt become romantic until after I became awakened and we have since been together in the Void.  Until then, I always thought of her as my guardian angel.

Its hard to explain, but in awakening I *remembered* being the One in the Void before there was anything else, including me.  The me I know as me did not exist, time and space did not exist, nothing existed except the One awareness, and nothing ever had.  Nothing existed except the One original awareness, who I was at that time, and whom I know to be all of us really.  That is the original state that I refer to as *nothingness*, and I am by far not the only one to have had that experience.

I thought it was a once in a lifetime experience, so it came as a surprise to me to return to the Void in my meditations after that, and to be in the Void as myself, the me I know as me, with that One awareness.  Things have evolved and changed considerably since then, much as Herrigel describes in Zen and the Art of Archery, to the point where I understand that the Spirit and the One are one in the same. 

And as such, I have no greater desire than get home to the Void as soon as I can.  Whatever It is, thats what It is to me.  So thats my story.

Quote: "Had a discussion with a friend of mine that is totally atheist and even more arrogant when drunk. Picked him up from a bachelor party where he was having some very strong-minded opinions of god, jesus and all the rest that the comming groom totally believed in..
I asked the drunk bastard in the car like what-if. Say  someone was truly happy, like radiating happiness and really enjoying life. And all this was because of  some "ignorant" belief in jesus and heaven to come and the whole lot.

Would he then convince such a person that his belief was wrong?

Yes, as long as my friend knew he was right, he would have no problem convincing someone that the bible was wrong and the whole shenanigan of the Christian religion.

I then said, so making someone" realising the truth" is most important to you? Even if this person belief made him truly happy and  had just positive influence on his life and it was for certain that he would be depressed and totally worse off knowing the "truth" yadda yadda laying it thick etc?

Yesss, he said, absolutely.

Thou he was drunk, I kinda think he somewhat really meant it.

Anyway, We are all nutjobs in here, nothing to be shamed off, who to say their fantasies are any better than others? (except me!:)

So the moral is, Starduster, recommend u stop gnashing on your spirit thing, you sound like a fanatic in need of convincing himself (and not the only one who probable oughta get laid here so not going into that:)
And estoric, recommend u reread ur postings critically with what you hope to achieve in mind.

And now, let's all come together for a big group hug or smash the living brain outta each other since that is kinda more fun to watch:)

"
.........

Well said. 

Happiness is the only realistic goal.  I am put in mind of a radio talk show one morning about what to do about the homeless problem in DC.

A homeless man called in and said, *You know, I may be a crazy alcoholic, but Im happy.  How many of you, stuck in traffic on your way to your 9 to 5 office job, can say that you are happy ?*

I wasnt happy at that juncture in my life.  I loved my job, but I was in an unhappy marriage, and I didnt like living in the city, especially since I grew up in the country.

Now I am happy.  I live in the country.  I like my job.  I like coming to this forum.  I like my meditations.  I like just sitting too, just breathing.  etc etc.  Life is cool, but Im still looking forward to getting home to the Spirit even more, so I suppose I may indeed focus on that a bit too much.

I dont say that what I have is right for anyone but me.  I only say go into meditation and see what comes to you, and maybe those who are unhappy will find happiness too.

Quote: "At the end of most of these threads in our forum here, I arrive at the sound 'nah' Its a good sound. Mantra-like. Nah. Get it?"
.........

I think theres a song like that,

nah nah nah, nah,

hey hey hey, good bye,

to this thread.

Quote: "The Yah Yah Nahs. Geddit?"
.........

Mantra ?

Are you still carrying this thread ?

I set it down four posts ago.

Going to the cemetery ?  Follow along ?

Okay, you first !!