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  Posted on Aug.17.2009 @ 07:39PM EDT by chontri

O monks, even if you have insight that is pure and clear but you cling to
it, fondle it and treasure it, depend on it and are attached to it, then you
do not understand... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: IT WAS THAT GOOD
vertical line Posted on Aug.16.2012 @ 10:39PM EDT by Avisitor
I read stuff  .. it was that good that I wanted to repeat it here.
I came upon some writings by a person using the name Riverstone which I thought was inspiring.
It is a little long but well worth the read. Please have a look.


Is Zen, a practice without thinking??


The awareness before and after thinking, this is the practice. If your mind is chaotic with thought,
your awareness of this .. is the practice. A great effort to make your mind stop thinking is unnatural.
The practice facilitates the moments when thinking is practically not there, but it is organic, natural.
When you focus on an object so strongly, that you are no longer thinking this is called concentration practice.
The whole idea of concentration practice is to remain aware, but aware without the rejection of the flowing of the present moment.
Should that moment contain, irritation, chaotic thoughts, or pleasant feelings, it is your awareness which is the practice.
Attachment to discomfort or pleasure will cause you to spiral in many directions,
but acknowledgement and honoring what arises and falls away as you release it, this is the practice.
When your awareness is strong enough you will begin to see your karmic impulses and instead of running with them, you let them go.
When there is no awareness, you are controlled by your notions and will do much to protect the truth of your beliefs.


Awareness does not reject anything, it sees the arising thought, reflects the thought,
And it stops reflecting it when the thought is gone. Awareness is the mirror, undiscriminating in what it reflects.
You know when awareness is gone, that is when you remember to watch your breathing again,
And then, you are aware again. Breathing is incidental but it is a good lifeline when your mirror becomes clouded.
The mirror will reflect, emotion, thoughts, dreams, and everything else that comes and goes.
Eventually there is a slip that happens where thinking suddenly ceases. You can feel it, it feels like everything has gone quiet,
Even as it has not. This can not be made to happen, but there is something in the embrace of every thought,
Every fluttering and distracting imagining, and then letting it go as it arises, as you embrace it.
Eventually the well of your pent up mental animations, runs dry, and you are pure here, pure now, pure being.
And then you start thinking again. You can wash dishes being the pure act of washing dishes. You can walk to the bus stop,
Being the pure experience of walking to the bus stop, and what thoughts arise, arise and fall away as part of the experience.


Sitting in the midst of the ocean the illusion would be that all the world is one vast ocean and one vast sky.
Illusion though it may be, it seems very real and in that space and time, it is real.
This is all that you can perceive with your senses, it is literally all that there is.
So while it is true that you are an illusion it is also true, that you are.
When you strike the surface of a pool of water, all sorts of forms take shape in the splash.
If you slowed that splash down you could watch drops change in form along their linear path and destination.
For a moment they are divided from the whole, seemingly independent, with its own momentum, trajectory and form.
Eventually it will re-merge with the body of water. So that it had its own singular existence for a time,
but all along it had been and always will be a part of the whole.

That is word for word out of the other thread. But, lately things are not following the overall theme. Guess that was in part my fault. But, hey, live and learn.

Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email Avisitor
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.16.2012
10:44PM EDT 
vertical line Space for anything else?
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Reply from boymonk
Aug.16.2012
10:55PM EDT 
vertical line Riverstone is the shizzle, my nizzle.
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.17.2012
12:37AM EDT 
vertical line I think it is too wordy. Almost like something imported from ZFI...lol
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.17.2012
03:52AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I think it is too wordy. Almost like something imported from ZFI...lol "
.........

It was actually posted here. It was broken up into three separate posts.
And, if you read it then you would see it does have the feel of understanding
the actualization of awakening. But, to each his own.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.17.2012
05:57AM EDT 
vertical line The William Tell/Presuming Ed routine - it's an eating competition.
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.17.2012
11:31AM EDT 
vertical line Ok. You are already thinking and then watching your thoughts arise and falls so what does that suppose to accomplish. Isn't that a messy activity - thinking and watching your thoughts arise and falls. Doing that for so many long years what have you accomplished?

If  you write a very long discourse you surely spend so much energy thinking. And then others read those long discourse trying to get some insights they spend their energy trying to figure out.

Isn't that spending too much energy uselessly. Conserving energy is not thinking. For surely every time  you think you spend your energy. Thinking is even more tiring than physical activity. That is why even young people always complaining they are very tired.


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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.17.2012
11:36AM EDT 
vertical line How was it for you?
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.17.2012
12:00PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Ok. You are already thinking and then watching your thoughts arise and falls so what does that suppose to accomplish. Isn't that a messy activity - thinking and watching your thoughts arise and falls. Doing that for so many long years what have you accomplished?

If  you write a very long discourse you surely spend so much energy thinking. And then others read those long discourse trying to get some insights they spend their energy trying to figure out.

Isn't that spending too much energy uselessly. Conserving energy is not thinking. For surely every time  you think you spend your energy. Thinking is even more tiring than physical activity. That is why even young people always complaining they are very tired.


"
.........

Why do people exercise??
Cause it is healthy to use your body and keep it active than to constantly conserve energy. If you don't spend anytime thinking then you are no better than a tree. Stuck in one place and waiting for the woodsman to chop you down. ... Hahaha

Stop being a person who preaches and start being the person who you wished you would be .. before your ego got this big??? Hahaha
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.17.2012
12:11PM EDT 
vertical line Feed the greed.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.17.2012
12:12PM EDT 
vertical line Energy sap.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.17.2012
12:34PM EDT 
vertical line Waiting to fall.
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.17.2012
04:18PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Ok. You are already thinking and then watching your thoughts arise and falls so what does that suppose to accomplish. Isn't that a messy activity - thinking and watching your thoughts arise and falls. Doing that for so many long years what have you accomplished?

If  you write a very long discourse you surely spend so much energy thinking. And then others read those long discourse trying to get some insights they spend their energy trying to figure out.

Isn't that spending too much energy uselessly. Conserving energy is not thinking. For surely every time  you think you spend your energy. Thinking is even more tiring than physical activity. That is why even young people always complaining they are very tired.




"
.........

You are already thinking and then watching your thoughts arise and falls so what does that suppose to accomplish.

What is accomplished is or rather what one recognizes, is awareness or awakening.

Doing that for so many long years what have you accomplished?

Time has nothing to do with anything except linear perception. Yet, eventually one recognizes an ability to choose ones reactions and to see ones predisposed notions which tempt one to defend a ground of being.

If  you write a very long discourse you surely spend so much energy thinking. And then others read those long discourse trying to get some insights they spend their energy trying to figure out.

Isn't that spending too much energy uselessly. Conserving energy is not thinking. For surely every time  you think you spend your energy. Thinking is even more tiring than physical activity. That is why even young people always complaining they are very

Every effort made to awaken is an effort that serves one and all. It is energy well spent for it is energy which uncovers what obscures ones true nature hidden beneath the point of view you cling to so dearly. A clinging which truly saps vital energy if you wish to speak in such terms. In truth the Wisdom of non-discriminate thought does indicate that there is no defense for a truth which can not be arrived at with logic. Which is to say, if you can not accomplish non-linear mind then you can not deny what it is either.

There are three things one accomplishes. The non-linear perception which works in conjunction with linear thinking and not against it. The linear mind however is useless without the non-linear. A mind armored by the non-linear, non-discriminant, non-conceptual is able to expound the truth of it, even if it is not understandable by the linear thinker. And third is the ability to implement this wisdom into ones life. That last step is the accomplishment of a True Master (if you wish to use such limiting words, even True Masters fall in linear time and perception).

Do you truly think the Buddha did not think? He touched the non-linear, non-conceptual experience and then implemented it into his life, even after he made some very easy blunders of ego. His pefection of wisdom was still challenged by clinging, which is to say, even a Buddha must contend with Karma.
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Reply from boymonk
Aug.17.2012
04:41PM EDT 
vertical line Let's face it, thinking is for thinkers.
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.17.2012
04:53PM EDT 
vertical line By the way Leoj,

There is a saying. "Those who know, do not say. Those who say, do not know." A person who thinks in logical linear terms only will utilize this to say; "Then the Buddha did not know, because he sure did say a lot.". The truth in these words is that that conceptual language is incapable of describing the non-conceptual experience, and this is a truth even logic can accept.

Zen has a history of writers who speak about this experience. It seems contradictory to the experience of Zen, but there is no contradiction. Only dualistic thinking and experiences perceive in divisive terms of "this is this and that is that". The non-dual, non-conceptual, non-linear experience informs the liner, logical, two dimensional world. In this same way if you were lost in a forest, climbed a tree to seek the end of the forest and then climbed down again to make toward what you saw when you were in the treetops.

There is the saying that "After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water". Enlightenment does not subtract you from the mundane, it emerses you in it, yet with a perception which does not cling to a specific agenda or notion. If you find yourself stuck in a defend-able absolute, then you extract yourself from it consciously, and chose again.

The human brain has been "built" with the capacity for non-liner and linear mental processes. This is a fact established by neuro-anatomist. So, do you pluck your" eye out because it can see, do you remove your hand because it offends you, do you chop off your legs because they do not walk in the way you wish. You are certainly free to do so.

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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.17.2012
05:08PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Let's face it, thinking is for thinkers.

"
.........

Show me a human who does not think, I will show you a human who is born with or has suffered brain damage. The Asian language accounts for reality by way of processes rather than absolutes. So when the Asian language speaks of 'not-thinking' it is in the space of a process, not as absolute. I am no master of Asian linguistics, this is information I read by Allan Watts who is himself accused of muddling Zen by some detractors.

I will say this, I can be, I accept the fact, that any word I have set down in writing is free and subject to being incorrect, because, I do not cling to any absolute truth, but to a truth that is in process. I also do and always will say, don't take my word for anything, go and do it yourself and determine or deny the truth of it based on your experience.

What I write here I have experienced and I remain comfortable in the fact that a newer understanding may arise.

I am not a master, I am a student, for as long as I can maintain an awareness which is not dependent on an absolute truth or ground of being.

So, throw away everything I say, if your practice has proven beneficial it is not for me to turn you away from it. Conceptual language can say exactly the same thing yet sound as if it were describing something all together different. It is the nature of conceptual language, it is its limitation.

This is why the Abbot of one school will not contradict the teaching of another Abbott, unless you have joined his school and even then, it is not to deny the other teacher. It is only to be consistent in language.

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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.17.2012
05:53PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Gassho  ... hands ...  palm to palm ... bows
Thanks ... I wish I had said that ... hahaha
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Reply from boymonk
Aug.17.2012
06:17PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: " I wish I had said that ...
"
.........

We KNOW.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.17.2012
06:29PM EDT 
vertical line Rip-Off Stop Press. Thinking the unthinkable, to be, you'd think I'd be amazed at how many fall for that kind of intellectual revelation which so abuses their own reflection - alas no - stolen or even borrowed head knowledge has its dangers, risks a negative bounceback effect and looks like a monkey running around with his head cut off, in the zen-of-he-that-diggeth-a-pit-shall-fall-into-it-terror.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.17.2012
06:34PM EDT 
vertical line Oh and awareness is effortless. Recycle that.
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.17.2012
06:55PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Gassho  ... hands ...  palm to palm ... bows
Thanks ... I wish I had said that ... hahaha
"
.........

Mostly it is not worth saying. Not because it is not true. It is virtually impossible to offer something for which there is no true conceptual frame of reference. What I am doing here is expending this bridge and burning away the need to speak of these things. I am burning my own Karma. It is a sad feeling, like holding out an orange to a hungry man but they will not take it for the preferance of an apple. And on my side my expectation that an orange is as good as an apple is my own attachment. I am learning. My words will not help here, so I must find another way.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.17.2012
07:06PM EDT 
vertical line You seem to be trying to unveil, while covering and blocking at the same time.
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.17.2012
07:12PM EDT 
vertical line By the way I humbly bow and submit I have made the mistake of speaking too directly. And I now understand and appreciate why everything I have experienced in the zen community has mostly been indirect in its chosen means of transmitting this.

So tell me, what is Zen? What is 'thought'? Who are you? Do you practice Zen, read about it or both? Do you really believe something is achieved through Zen? Would Zen still exist if all Buddhist and libraries of physical and electronic means ceased to exist? What about Zen serves you? What about Zen serves the world? Do you truly believe in Enlightenment and if so by what means could you hope to measure it in another? Why do you practice? If logic and zen are enemies why do you bother to speak your thoughts here?
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.17.2012
07:22PM EDT 
vertical line It's a pleasure to be here.
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.17.2012
07:32PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "It's a pleasure to be here. "
.........

wow! That is the written equivalent of holding a flower up.
I bow...

Thank you

;-)

(Tomorrow is my birthday I may not be around enough to respond to anything, I am being abducted for the weekend in an hour or so. I really appreciate learning here...thanks! ;0)
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Reply from Riverstone
Aug.17.2012
07:57PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "You seem to be trying to unveil, while covering and blocking at the same time."
.........

Its kind of tricky, like a mobius strip. You can most definitely explain too much, which is obviously one of my failings. I suppose it is like learning how to swim. You can talk it all you want but eventually you have to get in the pool. In all honesty, speaking it too much gets in my way, but it has helped too. Watching everyone else conceptualize it and struggle with it I keep going "yeah, yeah, I thought or think that too!". Honestly there is not one person here who has not experienced a non-conceptual moment, its just that most people don't recognize it nor how to re-initiate it if they do. As extraordinary as it is, it is really rather normal. So that first AH HA, moment gets in the way for a little while. Because at that point it looks huge, but after that, its ordinary. What I am doing these days is expanding how long I sit and swim in the pool vs out of the pool and then using that to affect my life outside the pool to further that metaphor. I am no master. I guess there is this part of me that wants to jump up and down and say, its really not that hard, really its easy. But as easy as it is I still have a lot of momentum from the past I have to work with. And I won't lie; if my dad died, all my friends, and the world entered a disaster of monumental proportions, I would probably fall all the way back down to survival mode. This is my first time on the deep end of the pool and even though it may seem like I am bragging I am really holding on to the edge of the pool wondering...uhm should I, could I, is it okay, it was not so hard last time, just as I am yelling at everyone else, "jump in! its not that hard!" So I am quazi pushing off into the deep end and then rushing back to the hold on to the side of the pool. And maybe the letting go for me is just to stop talking about it, but honestly I would feel a heck of a lot safer if more of ya'll jumped in.

Scuse the "ya'll" I am Texan...

See ya latter...
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.17.2012
08:54PM EDT 
vertical line Peace.
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Reply from boymonk
Aug.17.2012
09:20PM EDT 
vertical line Happy Birthday!
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.17.2012
10:58PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Yes, "Happy Birthday".
geez, and thing I didn't give credit for ....damn
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Reply from boymonk
Aug.18.2012
12:17AM EDT 
vertical line Things don't need credit a visitor. Home buyers do. HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.18.2012
12:20AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Things don't need credit a visitor. Home buyers do. HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! "
.........

I'll give you credit for not being original ... hahaha
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.18.2012
01:58AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Gassho  ... hands ...  palm to palm ... bows
Thanks ... I wish I had said that ... hahaha
"
.........

Did  you copy the hands.. palm to palm ... bows.. from someone else? ..lol
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.18.2012
02:02AM EDT 
vertical line I was just asking what you have accomplished by watching your thoughts rise and fall for so many years.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.18.2012
09:27AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Gassho  ... hands ...  palm to palm ... bows
Thanks ... I wish I had said that ... hahaha
"
.........

Did  you copy the hands.. palm to palm ... bows.. from someone else? ..lol
"
.........

Guess how hard it is to original with a religion as old as Buddhism??
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Reply from frozenaomi
Aug.18.2012
01:48PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line Quote: "I was just asking what you have accomplished by watching your thoughts rise and fall for so many years. "
.........

What is accomplished?

Little enough. All that is accomplished is to exist in the moment that actually exists.

Avisitor was talking a little while ago about the moon and its reflection.  How in a perfectly still body of water there is the moon and its reflection and the two are indistinguishable.  And that is a beautiful image, but its also garbage.  Water is never smooth.   And even if it were a few simple experiments could clearly demonstrate a categorical difference between the two objects.  Moreover, nothing is that simple.  People fixate on the bright and the beautiful, because they are attractive as comforting.  But the mud under the water is as much a part of reality as the perfections and imperfections in the reflected reflected light of the moon. 

The moment is not beautiful, nor is the moment ugly, neither is the moment both ugly and beautiful save for the extent to which we label certain aspects of reality as such. 

But people tend not to think of this.  They focus on the parts of reality they like and eschew the rest.  This is perfectly understandable.  The undesirable parts of reality can be quite messy and downright painful.  This, it isn't really hyperfocus, but rather willful negation of the unsettling, is a perfectly reasonable defense mechanism.  An analgesic that shields us from the pain of reality.

So it seems that thoughts are what cause you pain.  I am sorry you find your mind so painful; to a large extent I can sympathize with that pain.  Naturally you desire to divorce yourself from your thoughts, to block them out, in order to feel relief from the pain of thinking. 

But in so doing you are denying a part of the moment.  You are willfully ignoring the mud that exists.  There is nothing wrong with that.  Everyone is entitled to ease their suffering, that is why we all create our delusions after all.  Life is painful, believe me I know, and I'm sorry it is so.  I am glad you have embraced idiocy to cure your pain; I truly hope that you find that it is effective.

But not everyone suffers from the same wounds as you.  Therefore not everyone needs the same medicine.  Some pain is better covered by midol and others by aleve.  Some people, even, are trying to move beyond painkillers entirely and to accept all that exists in the moment.  Therefore I urge you to consider that this phronemophobia may not be a universal condition, and that continuing to advocate for it, and the cure, non-thinking, that you have devised, is rather like, to mix my metaphor a bit, advocating ciprofloxacin  to treat salmonella while the patient suffers from influenza.  Not only won't the cure work, it'll just add to the stomach upset.
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Reply from frozenaomi
Aug.18.2012
02:09PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line Quote: "By the way I humbly bow and submit I have made the mistake of speaking too directly. And I now understand and appreciate why everything I have experienced in the zen community has mostly been indirect in its chosen means of transmitting this.

So tell me, what is Zen? What is 'thought'? Who are you? Do you practice Zen, read about it or both? Do you really believe something is achieved through Zen? Would Zen still exist if all Buddhist and libraries of physical and electronic means ceased to exist? What about Zen serves you? What about Zen serves the world? Do you truly believe in Enlightenment and if so by what means could you hope to measure it in another? Why do you practice? If logic and zen are enemies why do you bother to speak your thoughts here?
"
.........

I am curious to your answers as well.  Or perhaps I should say opinions, answers is a pretty strong claim when it comes to much of anything let alone Zen.  Even math is limited by the assumptions of the underlying system. 

What is Zen?
The hardest and the most interesting question.  What is Zen when it is separated from all belief systems?  Its interesting to explore, but I doubt anyone can say, we are all trapped in one belief system or another.  Mine, I suppose, would be humanism.  Therefore I can never be confident of my opinion's on Zen, for I can never know how invasively my humanistic tendencies corrupt my limited Zen(ic) comprehension.

What is thought?
Thought is the mechanism by which animals perceive and misperceive reality.

Do you practice Zen, read about it or both?
I suppose I read more than I practice.  I'm bad at sitting still.  I like to meditate while I walk though.  From what I have read my experiences walking and meditating are similar but shallower to those reported while sitting and meditating.

 Do you really believe something is achieved through Zen?
How do you define something?  If we are talking about an effect then I would say no.  Practicing Zen produces nothing.  If we are talking about cause, then I would say maybe.  Zen may allow a fuller immersion into what was already there to begin with.

Would Zen still exist if all Buddhist and libraries of physical and electronic means ceased to exist?
Again, how rigidly are we defining Zen?  If we are talking about teaching and terminology, and, to a large extent, technique then the answer is of course not.  If we are talking about the basic concept of neither latching onto one particular element of reality or not rejecting one particular element of reality, then I would say yes, this is a common, although by no means universal, human impulse. 

What about Zen serves you?
It is nothing more than a mechanism for existing in the moment as it actually exists.

What about Zen serves the world?
Nothing.

Do you truly believe in Enlightenment and if so by what means could you hope to measure it in another?
Who cares?  Enlightenment is just another thing to be experienced in the moment, or not, as the case may be.

Why do you practice?
Life is short and the next moment is not assured.  Why would I want to dwell in illusion and miss reality?  A moment missed is a moment lost for eternity.

 If logic and zen are enemies why do you bother to speak your thoughts here?
**shrug**  I reject that assumption.  Which is problematic given my answer to would Zen exist....


I'd really like to see some other people answer this.  It seems like we spent the entire month of August talking AT eachother.  We haven't bothered/been able to understand eachother well enough to be able to talk TO eachother.  Mutual understanding can only build compassion and compassion can only yield more effective (and interesting) dialog. 
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.18.2012
05:45PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "By the way I humbly bow and submit I have made the mistake of speaking too directly. And I now understand and appreciate why everything I have experienced in the zen community has mostly been indirect in its chosen means of transmitting this.

So tell me, what is Zen? What is 'thought'? Who are you? Do you practice Zen, read about it or both? Do you really believe something is achieved through Zen? Would Zen still exist if all Buddhist and libraries of physical and electronic means ceased to exist? What about Zen serves you? What about Zen serves the world? Do you truly believe in Enlightenment and if so by what means could you hope to measure it in another? Why do you practice? If logic and zen are enemies why do you bother to speak your thoughts here?
"
.........

I am curious to your answers as well.  Or perhaps I should say opinions, answers is a pretty strong claim when it comes to much of anything let alone Zen.  Even math is limited by the assumptions of the underlying system. 

What is Zen?
The hardest and the most interesting question.  What is Zen when it is separated from all belief systems?  Its interesting to explore, but I doubt anyone can say, we are all trapped in one belief system or another.  Mine, I suppose, would be humanism.  Therefore I can never be confident of my opinion's on Zen, for I can never know how invasively my humanistic tendencies corrupt my limited Zen(ic) comprehension.

What is thought?
Thought is the mechanism by which animals perceive and misperceive reality.

Do you practice Zen, read about it or both?
I suppose I read more than I practice.  I'm bad at sitting still.  I like to meditate while I walk though.  From what I have read my experiences walking and meditating are similar but shallower to those reported while sitting and meditating.

 Do you really believe something is achieved through Zen?
How do you define something?  If we are talking about an effect then I would say no.  Practicing Zen produces nothing.  If we are talking about cause, then I would say maybe.  Zen may allow a fuller immersion into what was already there to begin with.

Would Zen still exist if all Buddhist and libraries of physical and electronic means ceased to exist?
Again, how rigidly are we defining Zen?  If we are talking about teaching and terminology, and, to a large extent, technique then the answer is of course not.  If we are talking about the basic concept of neither latching onto one particular element of reality or not rejecting one particular element of reality, then I would say yes, this is a common, although by no means universal, human impulse. 

What about Zen serves you?
It is nothing more than a mechanism for existing in the moment as it actually exists.

What about Zen serves the world?
Nothing.

Do you truly believe in Enlightenment and if so by what means could you hope to measure it in another?
Who cares?  Enlightenment is just another thing to be experienced in the moment, or not, as the case may be.

Why do you practice?
Life is short and the next moment is not assured.  Why would I want to dwell in illusion and miss reality?  A moment missed is a moment lost for eternity.

 If logic and zen are enemies why do you bother to speak your thoughts here?
**shrug**  I reject that assumption.  Which is problematic given my answer to would Zen exist....


I'd really like to see some other people answer this.  It seems like we spent the entire month of August talking AT eachother.  We haven't bothered/been able to understand eachother well enough to be able to talk TO eachother.  Mutual understanding can only build compassion and compassion can only yield more effective (and interesting) dialog. 
"
.........

I think you had just brought the whole ZFI in this topic. lol... Kidding aside, so lets start the ball rolling....
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.18.2012
06:11PM EDT 
vertical line 1 is a letter. Not a doer.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.18.2012
06:34PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "By the way I humbly bow and submit I have made the mistake of speaking too directly. And I now understand and appreciate why everything I have experienced in the zen community has mostly been indirect in its chosen means of transmitting this.

So tell me, what is Zen? What is 'thought'? Who are you? Do you practice Zen, read about it or both? Do you really believe something is achieved through Zen? Would Zen still exist if all Buddhist and libraries of physical and electronic means ceased to exist? What about Zen serves you? What about Zen serves the world? Do you truly believe in Enlightenment and if so by what means could you hope to measure it in another? Why do you practice? If logic and zen are enemies why do you bother to speak your thoughts here?
"
.........

I am curious to your answers as well.  Or perhaps I should say opinions, answers is a pretty strong claim when it comes to much of anything let alone Zen.  Even math is limited by the assumptions of the underlying system. 

What is Zen?
The hardest and the most interesting question.  What is Zen when it is separated from all belief systems?  Its interesting to explore, but I doubt anyone can say, we are all trapped in one belief system or another.  Mine, I suppose, would be humanism.  Therefore I can never be confident of my opinion's on Zen, for I can never know how invasively my humanistic tendencies corrupt my limited Zen(ic) comprehension.

What is thought?
Thought is the mechanism by which animals perceive and misperceive reality.

Do you practice Zen, read about it or both?
I suppose I read more than I practice.  I'm bad at sitting still.  I like to meditate while I walk though.  From what I have read my experiences walking and meditating are similar but shallower to those reported while sitting and meditating.

 Do you really believe something is achieved through Zen?
How do you define something?  If we are talking about an effect then I would say no.  Practicing Zen produces nothing.  If we are talking about cause, then I would say maybe.  Zen may allow a fuller immersion into what was already there to begin with.

Would Zen still exist if all Buddhist and libraries of physical and electronic means ceased to exist?
Again, how rigidly are we defining Zen?  If we are talking about teaching and terminology, and, to a large extent, technique then the answer is of course not.  If we are talking about the basic concept of neither latching onto one particular element of reality or not rejecting one particular element of reality, then I would say yes, this is a common, although by no means universal, human impulse. 

What about Zen serves you?
It is nothing more than a mechanism for existing in the moment as it actually exists.

What about Zen serves the world?
Nothing.

Do you truly believe in Enlightenment and if so by what means could you hope to measure it in another?
Who cares?  Enlightenment is just another thing to be experienced in the moment, or not, as the case may be.

Why do you practice?
Life is short and the next moment is not assured.  Why would I want to dwell in illusion and miss reality?  A moment missed is a moment lost for eternity.

 If logic and zen are enemies why do you bother to speak your thoughts here?
**shrug**  I reject that assumption.  Which is problematic given my answer to would Zen exist....


I'd really like to see some other people answer this.  It seems like we spent the entire month of August talking AT eachother.  We haven't bothered/been able to understand eachother well enough to be able to talk TO eachother.  Mutual understanding can only build compassion and compassion can only yield more effective (and interesting) dialog. 
"
.........

I think you had just brought the whole ZFI in this topic. lol... Kidding aside, so lets start the ball rolling....
"
.........

You guys are spending way too much time thinking about this.
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Reply from frozenaomi
Aug.18.2012
06:58PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote:

You guys are spending way too much time thinking about this.
"
.........

Perhaps.  But it is very easy to say, "No, I do not agree".  It is harder to say what you do believe and harder still to try to explain why. 

Of course we all disagree.  We are all different.  But we don't understand why we disagree.  We....most of us....have no facility for clairvoyance.  We have to actually talk and explain/express our thoughts in order to be understood deeply.  

Opening up isn't easy.  It's embarrassing, it's vulnerable-making.  But through that shared vulnerability comes trust.  Through trust comes dialogue.  What we have had here isn't dialogue it's barely even argument, it's, I dunno, mutual monologuing.

If there is to be something we have to try for it...to struggle for it.
So, please, humor me.  Sit down and share some matzasoup with me and share your thoughts with me as well.  Please.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.18.2012
07:28PM EDT 
vertical line Learnubf od mir egsy tpy mrrf.
Mir mrrf yi lmpe ubdysbyku.
Yes, they'll tie you up and prevent you from piercing the veil. So don't just eat it, eat the hell out of it.
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Reply from frozenaomi
Aug.18.2012
07:58PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line Again, maybe.  I don't feel like the villain, but does the villain ever?  I hope I never prevent anyone from piercing their veil, but I very well may.  But maybe I am asking you to lift yours a little.  Who is the Joe that is concealed behind the chip?  I think, and I could entirely wrong, but I think your comments are meant to confuse.  To try to break the pattern of thought.  I think you do this laudably, I think you are trying to help, to break people out of the stasis of their thinking.  I honestly think you care.  I think you are a good person.

I don't know that I can help.  i don't know if I have anything to offer.  But what I have comes from understanding.  I think open dialogue breeds understanding and from understanding comes empathy and compassion.  I think if we can actually talk to eachother rather than past eachother we can do something good.  I do not know what or how, but I have faith that we can. 
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.18.2012
08:14PM EDT 
vertical line There's nothing concealed that isn't revealed.
There are no comments which are meant to confuse.

Know yourself - it's effortless and convenient - in the light, where you belong.
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.18.2012
11:01PM EDT 
vertical line What is Zen?
Zen is not thinking. Zen is just experiencing, just doing.
Stop thinking, just eat watermelon.

Ok I'll give a hint.. lol.. So many have solved the koan: What is the sound of one hand clapping. Smart people and intelligent people have put forward all possible answers to it. And they have even published it.  But I think no one knows which is really is the right answer. And I think if you continue to ask there are more answers.

This is how I solve the koan. Since people like me who is stupid and not intelligent, I can see that the koan... the sound of one hand clapping ...has no real importance... so I don't make a big deal about it.  So I say: " I don't know."   And I think that is so true. I really don't know.
 
I think I have not heard anyone who has admitted they don't know.


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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.18.2012
11:25PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Gassho  ... hands ...  palm to palm ... bows
Thanks ... I wish I had said that ... hahaha
"
.........

Mostly it is not worth saying. Not because it is not true. It is virtually impossible to offer something for which there is no true conceptual frame of reference. What I am doing here is expending this bridge and burning away the need to speak of these things. I am burning my own Karma. It is a sad feeling, like holding out an orange to a hungry man but they will not take it for the preferance of an apple. And on my side my expectation that an orange is as good as an apple is my own attachment. I am learning. My words will not help here, so I must find another way.
"
.........

Jesus said let those with the ears to hear .. hear what I have to say (understand).
If you speak from the place where your experiences has lead you then it can only help those who can understand. The rest need hand holding and to be taught how to walk and chop wood.

Some who are here also have those experiences and some are like me .. a work in progress. But, whatever the situation, we still need those to point the way. Why else is there Zen or Buddhism?
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.18.2012
11:44PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "What is Zen?
The hardest and the most interesting question.  What is Zen when it is separated from all belief systems? 
"
.........

Zen is the systematic practice of Zazen meditation.
Removed from all belief systems. It is the practice.
If you want the truth then practice Zazen with all your effort and cherish it.
And as others have said, "It will bear great fruit."
That's it.Nothing else to think about or talk about ... just do it.
Find out for yourself.

But, unfortunately, we all can't just do that. Like me, there are those of us who want to understand more. What it is we struggle for? What it is about this life? So, Buddha comes out with an answer ... the four noble truths. It is about suffering and how to free yourself from suffering. Then, the three marks of existence or the four Buddha Dharma seals.

But, cut back to the essence of Zen. It is the practice. If you re-read the first post again then you can see what happens as meditation progresses. When I first started, thoughts would flow all the time. Hardly any quiet. I would even fool myself thinking that it had gotten better .. all the while thinking this or that. Clearer efforts and much more understanding ... it finally has gotten quieter. There are moments of peace. Just awareness. Thoughts still come but now, it goes too. That damn song stuck in my head  would now release and stop playing in my head. No force. Choice. Awareness.

You really have to practice Zazen. Formally sitting practice. The walking meditation or chanting or bowing or whatever ... I don't know these things. Only the sitting practice has given me what I know is the right path for me. So, that is what I suggest. Practice ... with right effort and with discipline.

You want to talk? Do some practice and when it is deep then ask questions. There are others here who can help you. Or better yet, go find a zen center and find a real teacher. That is of course depending on whether you really want what I have wished for  ... for so long.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.18.2012
11:53PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "What is Zen?
Zen is not thinking. Zen is just experiencing, just doing.
Stop thinking, just eat watermelon.

Ok I'll give a hint.. lol.. So many have solved the koan: What is the sound of one hand clapping. Smart people and intelligent people have put forward all possible answers to it. And they have even published it.  But I think no one knows which is really is the right answer. And I think if you continue to ask there are more answers.

This is how I solve the koan. Since people like me who is stupid and not intelligent, I can see that the koan... the sound of one hand clapping ...has no real importance... so I don't make a big deal about it.  So I say: " I don't know."   And I think that is so true. I really don't know.
 
I think I have not heard anyone who has admitted they don't know.


"
.........

A Koan is a device used by teachers to bring their disciple's mind to a point where the bottom breaks and a flood unique experiences come through ... see into one's nature.
The answer to the Koan is unimportant. It is the state of the disciple that is important.
You may say that any answer the student comes up with is rejected means the answer is wrong. No, it gives the teacher an idea of where the student's mind is in its progress. A right answer is only one that shows the disciple has broken the veil that hides our true nature. These things can only be interpreted by one who has actualized the truth of awakening.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.18.2012
11:54PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Sorry, the stink of Zen has gotten too much for me.
I am in desperate need of soup.
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.18.2012
11:57PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "What is Zen?
Zen is not thinking. Zen is just experiencing, just doing.
Stop thinking, just eat watermelon.

Ok I'll give a hint.. lol.. So many have solved the koan: What is the sound of one hand clapping. Smart people and intelligent people have put forward all possible answers to it. And they have even published it.  But I think no one knows which is really is the right answer. And I think if you continue to ask there are more answers.

This is how I solve the koan. Since people like me who is stupid and not intelligent, I can see that the koan... the sound of one hand clapping ...has no real importance... so I don't make a big deal about it.  So I say: " I don't know."   And I think that is so true. I really don't know.
 
I think I have not heard anyone who has admitted they don't know.


"
.........

A Koan is a device used by teachers to bring their disciple's mind to a point where the bottom breaks and a flood unique experiences come through ... see into one's nature.
The answer to the Koan is unimportant. It is the state of the disciple that is important.
You may say that any answer the student comes up with is rejected means the answer is wrong. No, it gives the teacher an idea of where the student's mind is in its progress. A right answer is only one that shows the disciple has broken the veil that hides our true nature. These things can only be interpreted by one who has actualized the truth of awakening.
"
.........

You mean there is no right answer? How did you know. Have you done koan studies with a teacher yourself?
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.18.2012
11:59PM EDT 
vertical line How did you know that the answer is not important?
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.19.2012
12:04AM EDT 
vertical line It seems if the student is in the right state of mind he must know the right answer too don't you think?
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.19.2012
12:17AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "You mean there is no right answer? How did you know. Have you done koan studies with a teacher yourself?

How did you know that the answer is not important?

It seems if the student is in the right state of mind he must know the right answer too don't you think?
"
.........

Answer to the first question: No, I cheated and went through the teachers desk to find the answers to the test ... hahaha

Answer to the second question: What is more important ... the state of mind of the disciple or the answer to a silly question?

Answer to the third question: If the student has seen his true nature then yes, he does have the right answer. But, it is not in a form which can be shown in words alone. You should know this!!!
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.19.2012
12:23AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "You mean there is no right answer? How did you know. Have you done koan studies with a teacher yourself?

How did you know that the answer is not important?

It seems if the student is in the right state of mind he must know the right answer too don't you think?
"
.........

Answer to the first question: No, I cheated and went through the teachers desk to find the answers to the test ... hahaha

Answer to the second question: What is more important ... the state of mind of the disciple or the answer to a silly question?

Answer to the third question: If the student has seen his true nature then yes, he does have the right answer. But, it is not in a form which can be shown in words alone. You should know this!!!
"
.........
I think if you really have it even if you are talking  you have it. Your teacher will surely understand it...
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.19.2012
12:31AM EDT 
vertical line If you have it and you are talking about it.. anyone who don't have the experience will never understand it. All of the time it would be taken as rude on offensive....lol
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Reply from boymonk
Aug.19.2012
12:35AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Sorry, the stink of Zen has gotten too much for me.
I am in desperate need of soup.
"
.........

where you gonna steal the soup from?
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Reply from frozenaomi
Aug.19.2012
01:22AM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "You want to talk? Do some practice and when it is deep then ask questions. There are others here who can help you. Or better yet, go find a zen center and find a real teacher. That is of course depending on whether you really want what I have wished for  ... for so long. " ......... 

I'm sorry.  I really wasn't trying to make you angry again.  I don't want to fight.  I did just want to talk.  I will reread your OP.  If it means anything I have read everything you, and everyone else, has written since I joined, and a good bit before. 

Your right.  Maybe what I do isn't zazen.  I thought, back then, when I started reading about Zen I recognized something, something resonated with me.  I've been having a harder and harder time figuring out what that was.  I haven't ever been to a formal teacher either.  There aren't any busses that go to any Zen areas.  I've tried sitting.  I find it distracting.  I am much better at clearing my mind when my body is moving.  I don't understand why that should make a difference, but maybe it does.  Maybe that means my questions really aren't deep enough.  Whatever, excuses, right?  I'm not putting in enough effort.  That is the reality of the moment.
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.19.2012
03:22AM EDT 
vertical line What is Zen?
Zen is not a cultivation of anything. Not even a cultivation of good moral values. Zen is sometimes sudden understanding... understanding that normally not called understanding. Most of the time it is viewed as misunderstanding.
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.19.2012
03:29AM EDT 
vertical line What is Zen?
Zen is realization. And all of a sudden most people doesn't make sense although before realization they all make sense. Most people talks but they really doesn't make sense. This is where true compassion comes about and arise. True compassion only comes after realization. The Buddha called them sentient beings and vowed to save them all.
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Reply from starduster
Aug.19.2012
06:47AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "You want to talk? Do some practice and when it is deep then ask questions. There are others here who can help you. Or better yet, go find a zen center and find a real teacher. That is of course depending on whether you really want what I have wished for  ... for so long. " ......... 

I'm sorry.  I really wasn't trying to make you angry again.  I don't want to fight.  I did just want to talk.  I will reread your OP.  If it means anything I have read everything you, and everyone else, has written since I joined, and a good bit before. 

Your right.  Maybe what I do isn't zazen.  I thought, back then, when I started reading about Zen I recognized something, something resonated with me.  I've been having a harder and harder time figuring out what that was.  I haven't ever been to a formal teacher either.  There aren't any busses that go to any Zen areas.  I've tried sitting.  I find it distracting.  I am much better at clearing my mind when my body is moving.  I don't understand why that should make a difference, but maybe it does.  Maybe that means my questions really aren't deep enough.  Whatever, excuses, right?  I'm not putting in enough effort.  That is the reality of the moment.
"
.........

There is nothing wrong with moving in zazen.  Walking zazen is a recognized and accepted methodology, and the principle could easily transfer to bike riding, swimming, or my favorite driving the car.  I started that when stuck in traffic 3 to 4 hours a day commuting in DC.  Figured I might as well get something out of it.

One may be the answer to everything, but surely does not mean that there is only one answer to everything. 

Bend over when you say you are sorry to people, and speak loudly, Naomi, because Ive noticed that they usually have their head up their ass and probably cant hear too well. 

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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.19.2012
06:58AM EDT 
vertical line YOU'VE GOT BLISTERS ON YOUR DIBBER!!!!!!!!!!
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.19.2012
08:09AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I'm sorry.  I really wasn't trying to make you angry again.  I don't want to fight.  I did just want to talk.  I will reread your OP.  If it means anything I have read everything you, and everyone else, has written since I joined, and a good bit before. 

Your right.  Maybe what I do isn't zazen.  I thought, back then, when I started reading about Zen I recognized something, something resonated with me.  I've been having a harder and harder time figuring out what that was.  I haven't ever been to a formal teacher either.  There aren't any busses that go to any Zen areas.  I've tried sitting.  I find it distracting.  I am much better at clearing my mind when my body is moving.  I don't understand why that should make a difference, but maybe it does.  Maybe that means my questions really aren't deep enough.  Whatever, excuses, right?  I'm not putting in enough effort.  That is the reality of the moment.
"
.........
I was not angry. But, I did want you to make a commitment to practice. Moving Zazen ... as I have said I don't know these things. Starduster knows as well as I do that it is a perfectly valid method but you need a teacher to benefit from such practices. Easier and more common is sitting meditation. You can start sitting practice easier and there are more people here that can help you get more out of your practice. If you are serious about this then start regular practice. If you just want a place to talk and hang out ... okay, it is a community.

Why practice? Why get serious? Everyone's answer can be different. Mine was a curiosity that started when I was young. It had been on and off. Living life. Getting married. Having a kid. Now, getting older ... I really wish to learn the truth for myself.

Maybe you aren't in the same place as me. I'm sorry. You should do what you feel is right for you. You might find most people here are like that ... in different spaces and all screaming different things. Most of it not making a bit of sense. Others who want to know more and still others who are just full of Zen pride. Again, I'm sorry if you think I was angry. My intent for you was to get serious about Zen. But, that may not be right for you at this time.
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.19.2012
11:30AM EDT 
vertical line Za = sitting... so Zazen is sitting Zen...lol.. walking zen is no longer zazen...
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.19.2012
12:07PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Za = sitting... so Zazen is sitting Zen...lol.. walking zen is no longer zazen... "
.........

Wow, you are a thinker that's for sure ... hahaha
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.19.2012
12:54PM EDT 
vertical line Zen will simply not stand for Zen.
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Reply from boymonk
Aug.19.2012
06:22PM EDT 
vertical line It's okay to be angry a visitor. It's not unzen to be angry. Have you heard the story about the angry Zen Master?

One day, long long ago, Nini the Zen Master was sitting by a river. It was very peacful and Nini was enjoying the peacefulness, very much. Then along came a visitor. Nini saw a visitor coming and tried to hide behind a rock, but it was too late. "MASTER," a visitor cried from a distance, "HOW'S YOUR SITTING TODAY?" Nini gave him the thumb-up sign, trying to minimize contact. A visitor was appalled. Why the hell is he flipping me off, a visitor thought. Some Zen Master he is. I'll show him! So a visitor picked up the nearest rock and flung it at Nini. It missed, but landed in the water near Nini made a big splash. Nini got soaked. Wow, a visitor thought, he must be really pissed now and I better make like a prom dress and take off! Nini saw a visitor run away, and it was peaceful again.
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Reply from esoteric
Aug.19.2012
06:47PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "I'm sorry.  I really wasn't trying to make you angry again.  I don't want to fight.  I did just want to talk.  I will reread your OP.  If it means anything I have read everything you, and everyone else, has written since I joined, and a good bit before. 

Your right.  Maybe what I do isn't zazen.  I thought, back then, when I started reading about Zen I recognized something, something resonated with me.  I've been having a harder and harder time figuring out what that was.  I haven't ever been to a formal teacher either.  There aren't any busses that go to any Zen areas.  I've tried sitting.  I find it distracting.  I am much better at clearing my mind when my body is moving.  I don't understand why that should make a difference, but maybe it does.  Maybe that means my questions really aren't deep enough.  Whatever, excuses, right?  I'm not putting in enough effort.  That is the reality of the moment.
"
.........
I was not angry. But, I did want you to make a commitment to practice. Moving Zazen ... as I have said I don't know these things. Starduster knows as well as I do that it is a perfectly valid method but you need a teacher to benefit from such practices. Easier and more common is sitting meditation. You can start sitting practice easier and there are more people here that can help you get more out of your practice. If you are serious about this then start regular practice. If you just want a place to talk and hang out ... okay, it is a community.

Why practice? Why get serious? Everyone's answer can be different. Mine was a curiosity that started when I was young. It had been on and off. Living life. Getting married. Having a kid. Now, getting older ... I really wish to learn the truth for myself.

Maybe you aren't in the same place as me. I'm sorry. You should do what you feel is right for you. You might find most people here are like that ... in different spaces and all screaming different things. Most of it not making a bit of sense. Others who want to know more and still others who are just full of Zen pride. Again, I'm sorry if you think I was angry. My intent for you was to get serious about Zen. But, that may not be right for you at this time.
"
.........

For someone posting about a "practice without thinking", you sure do post a lot of words. Maybe you should sit more, and say less.
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Reply from esoteric
Aug.19.2012
06:48PM EDT 
vertical line Seriously.
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Reply from leoj99
Aug.19.2012
09:33PM EDT 
vertical line I told you.... Stop thinking... just eat watermelon..
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.19.2012
10:50PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "I'm sorry.  I really wasn't trying to make you angry again.  I don't want to fight.  I did just want to talk.  I will reread your OP.  If it means anything I have read everything you, and everyone else, has written since I joined, and a good bit before. 

Your right.  Maybe what I do isn't zazen.  I thought, back then, when I started reading about Zen I recognized something, something resonated with me.  I've been having a harder and harder time figuring out what that was.  I haven't ever been to a formal teacher either.  There aren't any busses that go to any Zen areas.  I've tried sitting.  I find it distracting.  I am much better at clearing my mind when my body is moving.  I don't understand why that should make a difference, but maybe it does.  Maybe that means my questions really aren't deep enough.  Whatever, excuses, right?  I'm not putting in enough effort.  That is the reality of the moment.
"
.........
I was not angry. But, I did want you to make a commitment to practice. Moving Zazen ... as I have said I don't know these things. Starduster knows as well as I do that it is a perfectly valid method but you need a teacher to benefit from such practices. Easier and more common is sitting meditation. You can start sitting practice easier and there are more people here that can help you get more out of your practice. If you are serious about this then start regular practice. If you just want a place to talk and hang out ... okay, it is a community.

Why practice? Why get serious? Everyone's answer can be different. Mine was a curiosity that started when I was young. It had been on and off. Living life. Getting married. Having a kid. Now, getting older ... I really wish to learn the truth for myself.

Maybe you aren't in the same place as me. I'm sorry. You should do what you feel is right for you. You might find most people here are like that ... in different spaces and all screaming different things. Most of it not making a bit of sense. Others who want to know more and still others who are just full of Zen pride. Again, I'm sorry if you think I was angry. My intent for you was to get serious about Zen. But, that may not be right for you at this time.
"
.........

For someone posting about a "practice without thinking", you sure do post a lot of words. Maybe you should sit more, and say less.
"
.........

Practice and talking about practice aren't diametric opposites. They go hand in hand. Like learning and doing homework. Now, saying sit more and say less ... well that is the stink of Zen coming from every person who thinks he knows better than everyone else. I applaud you on showing your Zen pride and how much better you are than I am.
I mean geez, what would I do without your quick wit and solid advice?? Well, there is always boymonk and his stories which lack plot as well as intelligence. But, who am I to choose. After all, I'm just a crzed person with genocidal tendencies ... hahaha
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Reply from nibble
Aug.19.2012
10:54PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Again, maybe.  I don't feel like the villain, but does the villain ever?  I hope I never prevent anyone from piercing their veil, but I very well may.  But maybe I am asking you to lift yours a little.  Who is the Joe that is concealed behind the chip?  I think, and I could entirely wrong, but I think your comments are meant to confuse.  To try to break the pattern of thought.  I think you do this laudably, I think you are trying to help, to break people out of the stasis of their thinking.  I honestly think you care.  I think you are a good person.

I don't know that I can help.  i don't know if I have anything to offer.  But what I have comes from understanding.  I think open dialogue breeds understanding and from understanding comes empathy and compassion.  I think if we can actually talk to eachother rather than past eachother we can do something good.  I do not know what or how, but I have faith that we can. 
"
.........

Hrrrmmm..

First of all I`d like to mention that I seldom plan or like to think things trough. Many times I`ve "just done ("stupid")stuff" for no reason or logic. Different stuff that f.ex might involve just giving a client some freebie work that I could have easily charged for, or some proposal or promise that would make little sense or gain for myself there and then seen from the sideline.  Then later when I reflect on the day, I might suddenly realize how much extra work I will gain in the future and how extremely useful that freebie tool I just felt like implementing really is for both parties, especially myself, etc. It's not rare for me to do or say stuff without thinking, and then when wondering wtf I am doing  I realise that it was very clever to the point that I could brag in the aftermath of how brilliant and calculated I am rather than the honest truth "I have no clue at the time, turned out nicely thou". Thou I am fully capable of doing plain right stupid things without any benefit too off course :)

Could go deeper, but let's jump over to something different. Feelings..

The trick is, as I see it, the whole of cosmos is geared in a certain way. You can do stuff one way, and it feels bad. Do it another way, and it feels good. Somehow this feels wrong, but hey, this feels right!

And we all have feelings, like it or not. If we had no feeling there would be no reason to stay alive (or to even bother reason or anything for that matter)

So, we go on a hunt for that elusive energy in motion.

And we search for happiness. Maybe remembering how good it felt when mommy gave you some money for being good and u bought that delicious ice soda and  u soo want to repeat that good  memory of stuffing yourself with the yummy drink. After sneaking some money from the purse you sit there with the soda, tastes good, same taste, kinda,  you do not enjoy it. Drinking it up with a uncomfortable feeling of wrong.

And we might realise that the good feelings are inaccessible even when consummating good stuff if the source of these good feelings, oneself, is in a negative state.

If oneself is in a positive state (sssh u zennists out there, eat you're omap`s:)), then there really are no bad feelings, ((or rather" bad handling" of feelings))

To sum up with omap language,  happiness/bliss/contentment (that you REALLY want unless you're a dead AI or something..) is not something external of you, it`s within. That`s why the beautiful painting you saw last week looks so ordinary next week even thou u really had more pressing stuff to attend than going to the art museum this day. 

So all the money, sex, pickled jars, music, friends, gadgets in the world won't really give much satisfaction if you do not feel  good about yourself. Might give some relief from focusing attention away from you not feeling  good about yourself thou.

So then what?

It focus down to two things. Right thought. Right action. (whatever that might be)

Right thought might be analysing oneself to why it is true that all beings big and small are equally justified this existence with a feeling awareness?

Anyway, don`t sacrifice yourself to others, trying to become some Samaritan only thinking of other than yourself. The opposite is true. Think only of yourself and be honest. And THEN you can sacrifice yourself to others, being some samaritanwhatever if it pleases you to do so.
The right.., aware of one's own wrongful thinking and feelings, diligently arresting oneself when causing  bad feeling in whatever form (like looking for culprits like arrogance).

It's is no bs that if you love yourself, then is it possible to love and be compassionate towards others. Or rather, feel compassionate and loving towards others.

If you can't make it - fake it.

The irony is that to truly which someone happiness and all the best would encircle love and compassion and make you appreciate yourself for being such a good person for thinking so nice and loving thoughts about someone. Or even just noticing yourself trying to be a better human might get you "there".

We Do EVERYTHING for our self.
 (Every living thing on this planet)

If you try to impress someone by doing good deeds, njaaa, close but no cigar (unless you're trying to impress someone u fancy of course :)). 

Impress yourself.

Impressing onself is to help a blind stranger in the middle of the night and notice there is no need to brag about it.  Be cool, stay real, that's the difference between sweet sadness and bitter tears.

I stop here kinda halfway, just loose rambling . There is a part two that probably will never be written due to my indolent disposition , but you can figure out the rest yourself! Hopefully this posting at least derailed this forum a bit!:)

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Reply from leoj99
Aug.19.2012
11:16PM EDT 
vertical line I think you just outdone all of them on the litany of words...lol
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Reply from boymonk
Aug.20.2012
12:02AM EDT 
vertical line How ironic that the plot should not see the plot! HAHA!! Didn't see that coming... the plot thickens!
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Reply from nibble
Aug.20.2012
12:06AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "I think you just outdone all of them on the litany of words...lol "
.........
Hepp, and now I feel you should hold a basic introduction to meditation, and how these perceived hindrances like impatience and monkey mind really are crucial part of the practice

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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.20.2012
01:13AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "I think you just outdone all of them on the litany of words...lol "
.........
Hepp, and now I feel you should hold a basic introduction to meditation, and how these perceived hindrances like impatience and monkey mind really are crucial part of the practice

"
.........

Some people say that if you look outside of yourself then you will miss the true nature of the world. But, when you experience it, you see that every single being is all a part of yourself. Hmm, it makes me uncomfortable to see others as a part of me. But, if this were a bad movie then I guess I would now be seeing a few dozen people who look exactly like me typing on their keyboards in different homes. Each being the perfect foil for the next person. Wow, that shook the roof. So I say, "Be well" to all my other selves. And stop stinking up the place. ... hahaha .. where's the soup??
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Reply from boymonk
Aug.20.2012
03:58AM EDT 
vertical line Don't tell him where the soup is, he will steal it.
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Reply from starduster
Aug.20.2012
05:12AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Quote: "I'm sorry.  I really wasn't trying to make you angry again.  I don't want to fight.  I did just want to talk.  I will reread your OP.  If it means anything I have read everything you, and everyone else, has written since I joined, and a good bit before. 

Your right.  Maybe what I do isn't zazen.  I thought, back then, when I started reading about Zen I recognized something, something resonated with me.  I've been having a harder and harder time figuring out what that was.  I haven't ever been to a formal teacher either.  There aren't any busses that go to any Zen areas.  I've tried sitting.  I find it distracting.  I am much better at clearing my mind when my body is moving.  I don't understand why that should make a difference, but maybe it does.  Maybe that means my questions really aren't deep enough.  Whatever, excuses, right?  I'm not putting in enough effort.  That is the reality of the moment.
"
.........
I was not angry. But, I did want you to make a commitment to practice. Moving Zazen ... as I have said I don't know these things. Starduster knows as well as I do that it is a perfectly valid method but you need a teacher to benefit from such practices. Easier and more common is sitting meditation. You can start sitting practice easier and there are more people here that can help you get more out of your practice. If you are serious about this then start regular practice. If you just want a place to talk and hang out ... okay, it is a community.

Why practice? Why get serious? Everyone's answer can be different. Mine was a curiosity that started when I was young. It had been on and off. Living life. Getting married. Having a kid. Now, getting older ... I really wish to learn the truth for myself.

Maybe you aren't in the same place as me. I'm sorry. You should do what you feel is right for you. You might find most people here are like that ... in different spaces and all screaming different things. Most of it not making a bit of sense. Others who want to know more and still others who are just full of Zen pride. Again, I'm sorry if you think I was angry. My intent for you was to get serious about Zen. But, that may not be right for you at this time.
"
.........

I apologize for my *head up ass* comment.  I really dont think that of anyone here, whether I agree with them or not.

I was reacting defensively of you, Naomi, because you have a brilliant mind but may yet be a bit shy because of your youth.  Try to remember that your *mental age* is at least 1/2 again that of your chronological age, which can cause an imbalance in your dealings with life and other people.  Be who you are.

We all have to find our own way along our own path.  I started off with self-hypnosis, to overcome insomnia, as a teenage and still use it.  Very often when I meditate I start off with self-hypnosis and after entering a *trance* use that as a launching pad for Transcendental Meditation.  It works for me, and thats all that matters to me.

If there was only one way it would be much easier for everyone.  But its not that easy.  Everyone has to find what is right for them.  All too often what happens is that people think there is only one way, because other people said so, and then when it doesnt work for them they think there must be something wrong with them. 

Which is why I get a bit irritated with people who say there is only one right way.  Because worse than wrong, that is misleading.  To hinder another in their pursuit of their path is a great sin, I believe.  But thats just me.

Find your own way.  And if I can help you, I will.

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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.21.2012
03:41AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Again, maybe.  I don't feel like the villain, but does the villain ever?  I hope I never prevent anyone from piercing their veil, but I very well may.  But maybe I am asking you to lift yours a little.  Who is the Joe that is concealed behind the chip?  I think, and I could entirely wrong, but I think your comments are meant to confuse.  To try to break the pattern of thought.  I think you do this laudably, I think you are trying to help, to break people out of the stasis of their thinking.  I honestly think you care.  I think you are a good person.

I don't know that I can help.  i don't know if I have anything to offer.  But what I have comes from understanding.  I think open dialogue breeds understanding and from understanding comes empathy and compassion.  I think if we can actually talk to eachother rather than past eachother we can do something good.  I do not know what or how, but I have faith that we can. 
"
.........

Yeah, there will always be those who like to post and run. Put in a little snippet here and there. Thinking that is going to help?? Like you said post past each other. But, some of the people here truly want to learn and there are others who can help. I do wish you find your way. And whatever you found before that lead you here, Hope you find it again.

Good luck.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.21.2012
05:57AM EDT 
vertical line "Is Zen, a practice without thinking??"
.......................................

The non-essence of Zen is non-attachment and compassion.

Avisitor is shown the All. But it's not that good [enough] for him.
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Reply from simple
Aug.21.2012
05:58AM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line show must go on
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.21.2012
02:29PM EDT 
vertical line How many cosmic trigger fingers?
Just the one.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.21.2012
07:43PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "How many cosmic trigger fingers?
Just the one.
"
.........

You put up one finger ...
I'll put up two .... hahaha
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.21.2012
08:35PM EDT 
vertical line Triggered a burst.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.21.2012
10:06PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Triggered a burst."
.........

A burst of rain??
A little rain must fall into everyone's life.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.22.2012
03:30AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "If you have it and you are talking about it.. anyone who don't have the experience will never understand it. All of the time it would be taken as rude on offensive....lol "
.........

Trying to use linear thoughts and ideas to describe a nonlinear event makes little sense.
But, there are those who have actualized the experience and there are those who have other's understanding of the actualization. Does it seem rude to you?? Or offensive???
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Reply from starduster
Aug.22.2012
03:39AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Quote: "If you have it and you are talking about it.. anyone who don't have the experience will never understand it. All of the time it would be taken as rude on offensive....lol "
.........

Trying to use linear thoughts and ideas to describe a nonlinear event makes little sense.
But, there are those who have actualized the experience and there are those who have other's understanding of the actualization. Does it seem rude to you?? Or offensive???
"
.........

The only people I have been able to talk to about awakening without incurring wrath, scorn, or criticism, are those who are also awakened, or at least have had similar experiences.

Maybe we just share the same delusions, and can chat among ourselves like villiage idiots, on the same level.  We are on the same page, anyway.

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Reply from boymonk
Aug.22.2012
03:41AM EDT 
vertical line Really cool. Anyway, have you happen to have seen a dagger by chance?
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.22.2012
06:12AM EDT 
vertical line Reign of pain.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.22.2012
11:56AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Quote: "If you have it and you are talking about it.. anyone who don't have the experience will never understand it. All of the time it would be taken as rude on offensive....lol "
.........

Trying to use linear thoughts and ideas to describe a nonlinear event makes little sense.
But, there are those who have actualized the experience and there are those who have other's understanding of the actualization. Does it seem rude to you?? Or offensive???
"
.........

The only people I have been able to talk to about awakening without incurring wrath, scorn, or criticism, are those who are also awakened, or at least have had similar experiences.

Maybe we just share the same delusions, and can chat among ourselves like villiage idiots, on the same level.  We are on the same page, anyway.

"
.........

It is strange that you say that. Cause it seems that I have always been trying to be a part of the village idiots. Maybe cause they make sense to me?? Anyway, stuff that Riverstone has been saying seems to be like the missing puzzle to me. Now, if only .. I had wished for a long time. Guess I must put in the effort. An honest effort .. an effort that betrays the character of the heart. Never mind me. I must have been in the desert for too long.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.22.2012
12:17PM EDT 
vertical line The Great Pretender.
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Reply from shayne
Aug.23.2012
09:32AM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line We Do EVERYTHING for our self.
 (Every living thing on this planet)

wrong.

i decided to stay and live with my mom SO my children would be able to keep doing martial arts.

im giving up....sanity and a girlfriend.

stinking everything for our selves.

dude....take this the hell back.


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Reply from esoteric
Aug.23.2012
01:39PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "I'm sorry.  I really wasn't trying to make you angry again.  I don't want to fight.  I did just want to talk.  I will reread your OP.  If it means anything I have read everything you, and everyone else, has written since I joined, and a good bit before. 

Your right.  Maybe what I do isn't zazen.  I thought, back then, when I started reading about Zen I recognized something, something resonated with me.  I've been having a harder and harder time figuring out what that was.  I haven't ever been to a formal teacher either.  There aren't any busses that go to any Zen areas.  I've tried sitting.  I find it distracting.  I am much better at clearing my mind when my body is moving.  I don't understand why that should make a difference, but maybe it does.  Maybe that means my questions really aren't deep enough.  Whatever, excuses, right?  I'm not putting in enough effort.  That is the reality of the moment.
"
.........
I was not angry. But, I did want you to make a commitment to practice. Moving Zazen ... as I have said I don't know these things. Starduster knows as well as I do that it is a perfectly valid method but you need a teacher to benefit from such practices. Easier and more common is sitting meditation. You can start sitting practice easier and there are more people here that can help you get more out of your practice. If you are serious about this then start regular practice. If you just want a place to talk and hang out ... okay, it is a community.

Why practice? Why get serious? Everyone's answer can be different. Mine was a curiosity that started when I was young. It had been on and off. Living life. Getting married. Having a kid. Now, getting older ... I really wish to learn the truth for myself.

Maybe you aren't in the same place as me. I'm sorry. You should do what you feel is right for you. You might find most people here are like that ... in different spaces and all screaming different things. Most of it not making a bit of sense. Others who want to know more and still others who are just full of Zen pride. Again, I'm sorry if you think I was angry. My intent for you was to get serious about Zen. But, that may not be right for you at this time.
"
.........

For someone posting about a "practice without thinking", you sure do post a lot of words. Maybe you should sit more, and say less.
"
.........

Practice and talking about practice aren't diametric opposites. They go hand in hand. Like learning and doing homework. Now, saying sit more and say less ... well that is the stink of Zen coming from every person who thinks he knows better than everyone else. I applaud you on showing your Zen pride and how much better you are than I am.
I mean geez, what would I do without your quick wit and solid advice?? Well, there is always boymonk and his stories which lack plot as well as intelligence. But, who am I to choose. After all, I'm just a crzed person with genocidal tendencies ... hahaha
"
.........

Here are some words about practice:

Just sit, keep the correct posture, and pay attention. This is the practice of zazen.

Practice is practice, thinking is thinking. Why do you hold on for dear life to thinking about what happens in practice, and write those thoughts here, when you want to talk about practice without thinking? If you want to talk about practice without thinking, just talk about practice without thinking.

If you smell the stink of Zen, or you sense Zen pride, then keep practicing. There is no Zen in zazen.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.23.2012
02:29PM EDT 
vertical line I've got a theory.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.23.2012
03:08PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Here are some words about practice:

Just sit, keep the correct posture, and pay attention. This is the practice of zazen.

Practice is practice, thinking is thinking. Why do you hold on for dear life to thinking about what happens in practice, and write those thoughts here, when you want to talk about practice without thinking? If you want to talk about practice without thinking, just talk about practice without thinking.

If you smell the stink of Zen, or you sense Zen pride, then keep practicing. There is no Zen in zazen.
"
.........

I'm sorry if I sounded blunt. I only wish to filter out those who think they know from those who do actually know. Too many times have I heard people preach .. sit and practice. It have gotten to the point when it means nothing. Only a person who has had the actualization can touch the spark which holds my wish.

Again sorry .. I am here to learn .. not to debate. I am blunt and coarse and I grate on the nerves. That is me. Please be patient.
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Reply from boymonk
Aug.23.2012
04:28PM EDT 
vertical line I have actualization and will touch your spark, Avisitor, with protection of course.
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Reply from esoteric
Aug.23.2012
06:02PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Here are some words about practice:

Just sit, keep the correct posture, and pay attention. This is the practice of zazen.

Practice is practice, thinking is thinking. Why do you hold on for dear life to thinking about what happens in practice, and write those thoughts here, when you want to talk about practice without thinking? If you want to talk about practice without thinking, just talk about practice without thinking.

If you smell the stink of Zen, or you sense Zen pride, then keep practicing. There is no Zen in zazen.
"
.........

I'm sorry if I sounded blunt. I only wish to filter out those who think they know from those who do actually know. Too many times have I heard people preach .. sit and practice. It have gotten to the point when it means nothing. Only a person who has had the actualization can touch the spark which holds my wish.

Again sorry .. I am here to learn .. not to debate. I am blunt and coarse and I grate on the nerves. That is me. Please be patient.
"
.........

No problem. I just saw a lot of thinking that was confused with a practice without thinking, so I tried to correct that.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.23.2012
06:09PM EDT 
vertical line Homo Incorrectus.
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Reply from nibble
Aug.23.2012
06:44PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "We Do EVERYTHING for our self.
 (Every living thing on this planet)

wrong.

i decided to stay and live with my mom SO my children would be able to keep doing martial arts.

im giving up....sanity and a girlfriend.

stinking everything for our selves.

dude....take this the hell back.


"
.........
SORRY, MY BAD. i WILL CORRECT IT!:)

We Do EVERYTHING to our self.
 (Every living thing on this planet)
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Reply from nibble
Aug.23.2012
06:46PM EDT 
vertical line (Feel better now?:)
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Reply from simple
Aug.23.2012
06:54PM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line yeap
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.23.2012
06:55PM EDT 
vertical line hiya
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Reply from simple
Aug.23.2012
06:57PM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line :)
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Reply from boymonk
Aug.24.2012
12:02AM EDT 
vertical line You think that was good, but you haven't seen this . . . sex in a flotation room.

Actually, it wasn't what you would call climactic.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.24.2012
12:23AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "No problem. I just saw a lot of thinking that was confused with a practice without thinking, so I tried to correct that.
"
.........

There isn't a need to correct anything.
Well maybe ... don't speak and don't let people know how silly you really are
Or do speak and let people know exactly how silly you are
Either way you have proven your worth ... cough, cough ...
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Reply from esoteric
Aug.24.2012
05:04PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "No problem. I just saw a lot of thinking that was confused with a practice without thinking, so I tried to correct that.
"
.........

There isn't a need to correct anything.
Well maybe ... don't speak and don't let people know how silly you really are
Or do speak and let people know exactly how silly you are
Either way you have proven your worth ... cough, cough ...


.........

You need a lot of correcting.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.24.2012
07:11PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "No problem. I just saw a lot of thinking that was confused with a practice without thinking, so I tried to correct that.
"
.........

There isn't a need to correct anything.
Well maybe ... don't speak and don't let people know how silly you really are
Or do speak and let people know exactly how silly you are
Either way you have proven your worth ... cough, cough ...


.........

You need a lot of correcting.
"
.........

Well, if you insist ... then go ahead and correct me.
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Reply from simple
Aug.25.2012
04:59AM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line Who cares(taken)
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.25.2012
08:22AM EDT 
vertical line Chickentown 2
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Reply from esoteric
Aug.25.2012
11:25AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "No problem. I just saw a lot of thinking that was confused with a practice without thinking, so I tried to correct that.
"
.........

There isn't a need to correct anything.
Well maybe ... don't speak and don't let people know how silly you really are
Or do speak and let people know exactly how silly you are
Either way you have proven your worth ... cough, cough ...


.........

You need a lot of correcting.
"
.........

Well, if you insist ... then go ahead and correct me.
"
.........

Just correct yourself.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.25.2012
12:01PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "No problem. I just saw a lot of thinking that was confused with a practice without thinking, so I tried to correct that.
"
.........

There isn't a need to correct anything.
Well maybe ... don't speak and don't let people know how silly you really are
Or do speak and let people know exactly how silly you are
Either way you have proven your worth ... cough, cough ...


.........

You need a lot of correcting.
"
.........

Well, if you insist ... then go ahead and correct me.
"
.........

Just correct yourself.
"
.........
Hey, if I can correct myself that must mean I know the answers.
Then there is no need for correction ... hahaha
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.25.2012
12:04PM EDT 
vertical line The authority problem corrective, corrected.
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Reply from boymonk
Aug.25.2012
12:24PM EDT 
vertical line I'm always wrong when I'm right.
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Reply from esoteric
Aug.25.2012
05:56PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "No problem. I just saw a lot of thinking that was confused with a practice without thinking, so I tried to correct that.
"
.........

There isn't a need to correct anything.
Well maybe ... don't speak and don't let people know how silly you really are
Or do speak and let people know exactly how silly you are
Either way you have proven your worth ... cough, cough ...


.........

You need a lot of correcting.
"
.........

Well, if you insist ... then go ahead and correct me.
"
.........

Just correct yourself.
"
.........
Hey, if I can correct myself that must mean I know the answers.
Then there is no need for correction ... hahaha
"
.........

You know the answers, but still need a lot of correction.
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.25.2012
08:42PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "You know the answers, but still need a lot of correction.
"
.........
I'm guessing that I'm not the only one who needs a lot of correction.

Hahaha
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Reply from esoteric
Aug.26.2012
10:56AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "You know the answers, but still need a lot of correction.
"
.........
I'm guessing that I'm not the only one who needs a lot of correction.

Hahaha
"
.........

Many people need lots of correcting. I'm going to go have a cup of coffee and listen to the birds.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.26.2012
11:44AM EDT 
vertical line tweet twoot
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Reply from simple
Aug.26.2012
12:16PM EDT 
Email simple
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Quote: "Many people need lots of correcting."

.........

I am a hopeless person.

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Reply from shayne
Aug.26.2012
12:44PM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Many people need lots of correcting."

.........

I am a hopeless person.

"
.........

hope......is wishing for things. reality is what it is.


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Reply from boymonk
Aug.26.2012
05:40PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "You know the answers, but still need a lot of correction.
"
.........
I'm guessing that I'm not the only one who needs a lot of correction.

Hahaha
"
.........

Many people need lots of correcting. I'm going to go have a cup of coffee and listen to the birds.
"
.........

Birds don't need "correcting"
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.26.2012
05:46PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "You know the answers, but still need a lot of correction.
"
.........
I'm guessing that I'm not the only one who needs a lot of correction.

Hahaha
"
.........

Many people need lots of correcting. I'm going to go have a cup of coffee and listen to the birds.
"
.........

Birds don't need "correcting""
.........

I don't know about that ... I hit a bird with my car a few days ago.
It was flying too low and across the highway.
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Reply from boymonk
Aug.26.2012
08:39PM EDT 
vertical line Avisitor genocide birds now.
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Reply from starduster
Aug.26.2012
11:29PM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "You think that was good, but you haven't seen this . . . sex in a flotation room.

Actually, it wasn't what you would call climactic.
"
.........

Do you mean a Sensory Deprivation Tank ?

Invented by Dr John C Lilly, who also develop[ed the program of training and communicating with dolphins for the Navy.  Wrote on metaphysics also.

I was going to build a SDT, but found that Yoga relaxation exercises accomplish the same thing.  A few minutes after the exercises I cant feel my body anyway.

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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.31.2012
05:25AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Here are some words about practice:

Just sit, keep the correct posture, and pay attention. This is the practice of zazen.

Practice is practice, thinking is thinking. Why do you hold on for dear life to thinking about what happens in practice, and write those thoughts here, when you want to talk about practice without thinking? If you want to talk about practice without thinking, just talk about practice without thinking.

If you smell the stink of Zen, or you sense Zen pride, then keep practicing. There is no Zen in zazen.
"
.........

I'm sorry if I sounded blunt. I only wish to filter out those who think they know from those who do actually know. Too many times have I heard people preach .. sit and practice. It have gotten to the point when it means nothing. Only a person who has had the actualization can touch the spark which holds my wish.

Again sorry .. I am here to learn .. not to debate. I am blunt and coarse and I grate on the nerves. That is me. Please be patient.
"
.........

No problem. I just saw a lot of thinking that was confused with a practice without thinking, so I tried to correct that.
"
.........

Sorry, no spark, no fire ... maybe it isn't what you say but how you said it??
Hahaha

.........

I have actualization and will touch your spark, Avisitor, with protection of course.

.........

If you touch me I will scream. Protection or not.
Yeah, no spark here, the fire has gone out .. hahaha
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Reply from simple
Aug.31.2012
09:50AM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line The fire has never gone out.
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