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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: ATTACHMENT TO ENLIGHTENMENT
vertical line Posted on Sep.04.2012 @ 11:27AM EDT by QuantumZen
Hello. I have been interested in Zen for several years. I gradually start to get the ideas of Zen teaching. Of course I need much more practice than I do now, but I wanted to ask one thing. If Buddhism's goal is to achieve enlightenment (which I share) how can I try to achieve it without getting attached to the urge to get enlightenment. It is contradictory in the very nature of Zen. I find myself THINKING "It would be GREAT to be enlightened" and I understand that it is foul to think that way (I should stop thinking in the first place xD).
Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email QuantumZen
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.04.2012
11:39AM EDT 
vertical line Enlightenment - the annihilation of the desire for enlightenment.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142013
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Reply from Riverstone
Sep.04.2012
02:02PM EDT 
vertical line There are many schools of Buddhism and many forms of Zen. Enlightenment is seen by some as this supernatural occurance. I have run across many ancient teachings which convey that the very act of sitting or being mindful are enlightenment itself. Conversely, I have seen Zen Masters who have "achieved" the enlightened state, and yet they fall into human trouble, which is well documented elsewhere on the internet. Shunryu Sazuki said "It is not so much that there are enlightened beings, but enlightened action." It reminds me of love, you can not make yourself fall in love with someone, you can only make room for it and not impede it. People do experience hyper-states of awareness, they touch their true nature and the initial experience is overwhelming, and wonderful. In the presence of a teacher they stabalise this into the 'ordinary' thing that it is. I am no teacher and I assume that this description would receive some derision for being too conceptual (thinking about it too much). Dare I say, I have begun to speculate that Enlightenment has been overly promoted, that it is something every human could achieve and in this lifetime. The thing is it is not a constant state, but a process, always unfolding.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142014
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Reply from simple
Sep.04.2012
02:13PM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line Just put your desire on to a low heat.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142015
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.04.2012
02:23PM EDT 
vertical line Enlightenment is child's play.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142016
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Reply from floating_a
Sep.04.2012
03:59PM EDT 
vertical line Joe Chip is right I believe
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142037
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.04.2012
04:25PM EDT 
vertical line Play by ear.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142038
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Reply from Riverstone
Sep.04.2012
05:03PM EDT 
vertical line I would think child's play is closer, innocence, less preconceived notion, a lot more trust. Where as play by ear is a lot of conceptualizing and maybe this and maybe that. Of course I could be wrong. ;-)
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.04.2012
06:12PM EDT 
vertical line Only when you continue trying to adapt the child and the child's play by ear, to the weight of your conceptualising and conditioning.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142041
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Reply from Riverstone
Sep.04.2012
06:31PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Only when you continue trying to adapt the child and the child's play by ear, to the weight of your conceptualising and conditioning. "
.........

Love this ;-)


vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142043
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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.04.2012
06:33PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line When you meditate, you let go of thought.
Let go of this thought too
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142044
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Reply from Chryseis
Sep.04.2012
10:06PM EDT 
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enlghtenment is barely a hair's breadth away, it's with you now, but not realized

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Reply from leoj99
Sep.05.2012
03:35AM EDT 
vertical line When you make love with your wife... what is that experience?
Isn't it enlightenment...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142058
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Reply from starduster
Sep.05.2012
05:20AM EDT 
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Quote: "There are many schools of Buddhism and many forms of Zen. Enlightenment is seen by some as this supernatural occurance. I have run across many ancient teachings which convey that the very act of sitting or being mindful are enlightenment itself. Conversely, I have seen Zen Masters who have "achieved" the enlightened state, and yet they fall into human trouble, which is well documented elsewhere on the internet. Shunryu Sazuki said "It is not so much that there are enlightened beings, but enlightened action." It reminds me of love, you can not make yourself fall in love with someone, you can only make room for it and not impede it. People do experience hyper-states of awareness, they touch their true nature and the initial experience is overwhelming, and wonderful. In the presence of a teacher they stabalise this into the 'ordinary' thing that it is. I am no teacher and I assume that this description would receive some derision for being too conceptual (thinking about it too much). Dare I say, I have begun to speculate that Enlightenment has been overly promoted, that it is something every human could achieve and in this lifetime. The thing is it is not a constant state, but a process, always unfolding."
.........

Ive been meditating since jr high, or even before depending on your definitiion, atral traveling since age 20, and awakened since 1990.  Im done yet.  It keeps growng and changing. 

The misconception is that awakening is the end of the line.  Its not.  It doesnt change who you are, just your understanding of what is.  it is not the death of the ego, and you do not have to kill you ego to get there.  You really just *need* to be ready to accept it.  Thats the real work to be done in zazen or meditation.

It is sometimes refered to as a sort of death.  in a way it is, your death as a logical being, confined to 3d cause and effect.  Cause has no more affect because all time is one time, and dead because you were never really born.

I have read and heard many satori or nirvana stories, and they are all different.  Yet everyone seems to come out of these experiences with the same understanding of Now, just now, whatever It is.

At first you expect things to adapt to you.  Then you accept having to adapt to things.  Then neither, just being who you are, where you are, doing whatever you are doing, without any particular wants, desires, or expectation.  Just letting things unfold.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.05.2012
06:05AM EDT 
vertical line Don't Come Around Here No More
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Oct.29.2012
06:58AM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
vertical line Keep letting go of the desire to become enlightened ... then let go of the desire to let go and then let go even of  the letting go and then hey presto one day you find that the glasses you were looking for all over the place you were wearing them the whole time ...

trouble with time is I really have lost my glasses .... but that's my problem  ...
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Oct.29.2012
07:09AM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
vertical line Quote: "Keep letting go of the desire to become enlightened ... then let go of the desire to let go and then let go even of  the letting go and then hey presto one day you find that the glasses you were looking for all over the place you were wearing them the whole time ...

trouble with me is I really have lost my glasses .... but that's my problem  ... they're sure to turn up somewhere
"
.........
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Oct.29.2012
07:13AM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Keep letting go of the desire to become enlightened ... then let go of the desire to let go and then let go even of  the letting go and then hey presto one day you find that the glasses you were looking for all over the place you were wearing them the whole time ...

trouble with me is I really have lost my glasses .... but that's my problem  ... they're sure to turn up somewhere
"
.........
"
.........

Sorry about replying to myself like that but the first time I said 'the trouble with time' instead of 'the trouble with me'.

The trouble with time is that there's not always enough of it
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.29.2012
05:51PM EDT 
vertical line 20 minutes!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 145325
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Reply from zenmanstan
Oct.29.2012
09:56PM EDT 
Email zenmanstan
vertical line when you're enlightened you always get one wish
i wished for nothing, that is true happiness.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 145343
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Reply from starduster
Oct.30.2012
04:30AM EDT 
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Einstein said, *Nothing exists except the energy that everything is made of.*

Everything is constructed of atomic energy, atoms combining into molecules and making things, and constantly changing form as old things decay into new forms.

Enlightenment, or awakening, is like living as a microbe in an ocean of an energy being.

For Einstein that was science.

For others it is a philosophy.

And for those of us, like me, who believe the whole of it is a conscious being, its religion.

Take your pick.

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Reply from leoj99
Oct.30.2012
05:06AM EDT 
vertical line How can  you be attached with what you don't know, what you have no inkling about. How can you be attached to the unknown..?
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Reply from leoj99
Oct.30.2012
05:08AM EDT 
vertical line Maybe you are just thinking you are attached...lol
Thats the trouble with thinking.. you can make things as if happening yet it never happens..
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Reply from starduster
Oct.30.2012
06:20AM EDT 
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Quote: "How can  you be attached with what you don't know, what you have no inkling about. How can you be attached to the unknown..? "
.........

Some of us have experienced this *ocean* of being, but this comes in many ways.

Some in meditation, like Ramana, and some in an aspect of waking life, like Osho.

In any event the experience is overwhelming, I have said it is like being struck by lightening, and whether true or not it provides a view of life, an *understanding*, that works so well under all circumstances that I know of no one who has backed away from it.  In a split second, all questions are answered.

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Reply from starduster
Oct.30.2012
06:33AM EDT 
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Osho said of Ramanas enlightenment:

*Maharishi Raman attained to enlightenment through death. He was only seventeen or eighteen and suddenly he felt he was dying. He was doing meditations; he must have unknowingly hit his hara. He was so absorbed in his meditation that he had left home and escaped and was sitting near a temple. The temple was dirty as indian temples are; there were flies and dogs everywhere. He was sitting there, hungry for many days, and all over his body were flies. Dogs were barking and children playing nearby -- the indian village scene.

*And then suddenly he felt that he was dying, but he accepted it. It was okay: if one was dying, one was dying. He relaxed into death; his body fell down. A crowd gathered and they thought that this boy was dead. And what was happening inside was of tremendous value, ultimate value. Ramana saw his body disappearing. Then he saw his mind disappearing -- but he accepted it. And then a smile came over his face. The body disappeared, the mind disappeared and he was still there! Nothing had died! So he opened his eyes and laughed!*

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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.30.2012
08:12AM EDT 
vertical line All the enlightenments have fused.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 145399
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Reply from leoj99
Oct.30.2012
11:17AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "All the enlightenments have fused."
.........

Now even your enlightenment is quoted!!!...lol
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.30.2012
12:30PM EDT 
vertical line Kinda reminiscent of the time when all the adults were pretend-practicing ego-death, and all the children were really starving to death.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 145465
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Reply from Avisitor
Oct.30.2012
03:34PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "

enlghtenment is barely a hair's breadth away, it's with you now, but not realized

"
.........
What use is enlightenment?
I don't need it and don't want it ... hahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 145485
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