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  Ching-yuan Wei-hsin, a Chinese Ch'an master, once said this:
Thirty years ago, when having not studied Ch'an,
this monk saw mountain was mountains and water was water.
Later, when following the good teacher's guide, this monk... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: LOVE AND ZEN
vertical line Posted on Sep.04.2012 @ 11:30AM EDT by QuantumZen
I want to practice Zen, but I can't figure out how does Zen go along love. Isn't love one of greatest attachments one can have? I have a girlfriend (soon to be my wife) and I can not hide the fact of her importance to me. Many Zen Masters who have reached enlightenment (For example D.T.Suzuki) had wifes. But how does it make sense?
Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email QuantumZen
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.04.2012
11:36AM EDT 
vertical line Love will annihilate everything you hold dear.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142012
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Reply from Riverstone
Sep.04.2012
02:26PM EDT 
vertical line You know that part of your vows "for better, for worse" that is the Zen part. The first Noble Truth is not "There is no suffering", rather "There is suffering". It is what we do with that which matters most. And mostly, from my perceived notion of Zen, it is not that we create this artificial peace. Rather it is that when difficulty arises, we allow the difficulty to be what it is. Love and attachment are not the same. Where you have designs on how someone should or should not be, that is not love. When people die or we lose a relationship, we grieve, if we had the capacity to touch enlightenment we would see there is no reason to grieve, but not being "there" yet, we grieve. So until we reach that place where we intimately know there is nothing we can lose because it is all part of us no matter the form it takes then we remain unattached to our ideas of how we should, or should not feel. Love starts off with fireworks like wine and roses and eventually it tapers down into ordinary milk and cookies.

Inside of a home a candle flame will stand straight and unmoving because no air pushes it about. This is how we are when we meditate, we lean in no direction, either for nor against. It is not that we do not feel the momentum of being pushed about by our desires, wants, needs, but that we acknowledge them, release them, and make conscious decisions rather than rash actions. But, I can not even cling to these notions I have set down here. Someone may have a more appropriate answer for you, as, I am not married myself.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142017
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.04.2012
02:32PM EDT 
vertical line That looks and sounds like infatuation.

Love has no beginning; no end; no opposite.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142018
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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.04.2012
06:47PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "That looks and sounds like infatuation.

Love has no beginning; no end; no opposite.
"
.........
When I saw my wife for the first time, that was the beginning
When I die, that will be the end
For love there may be no beginning, no end
But as I am now, that has always been that way
In truth, what I see and what I feel to be this reality.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142049
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Reply from so_teh
Sep.04.2012
07:23PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Love err Zen
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142052
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Reply from Chryseis
Sep.04.2012
09:39PM EDT 
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Zen is not dependent on circumstance

Other attainments can be though

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Reply from starduster
Sep.05.2012
05:59AM EDT 
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When you love someone you want to get so close to them that you are virtually inside each other as one.

That which Is is being everything and everyone, including you and the one you love.

Mission accomplished, before it even started.  You already are one with the one you love.

But I didnt always know or understand this.  I got out of a bad marriage after awakening at my earliest convenience.  I didnt have the strength before.

I asked another awakened person how she could be in a relationship with another person, wasnt it sort of masterbatory ?

She said no, it wasnt like that, they just kept the Spirit central to everything.  I understand that now.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.05.2012
06:11AM EDT 
vertical line Love has no cause.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142067
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Reply from floating_a
Sep.05.2012
02:48PM EDT 
vertical line Thanks Joe
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Reply from so_teh
Sep.05.2012
03:35PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Quote: "Love has no cause. "
.........

So no end.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142090
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Reply from simple
Sep.05.2012
03:43PM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line So no begining?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142091
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Reply from simple
Sep.05.2012
03:54PM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line Okay.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142092
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Reply from simple
Sep.05.2012
04:21PM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line I am not a supporter of deep thinking.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142094
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.05.2012
04:27PM EDT 
vertical line Love Pump?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142095
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Reply from simple
Sep.05.2012
04:41PM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line If you say what is Pump, I will say yes or no.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142096
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Reply from simple
Sep.05.2012
04:51PM EDT 
Email simple
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Quote: "I am not a supporter of deep thinking."
.........

Only enough thinking!

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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.05.2012
05:15PM EDT 
vertical line Venus is closing in on the Beehive Star Cluster. [A close encounter of the Regulus kind.]
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142098
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Reply from simple
Sep.05.2012
05:32PM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line babble
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.05.2012
05:34PM EDT 
vertical line Astronomy.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142100
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.05.2012
05:36PM EDT 
vertical line Look up - love transcends attachment.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142101
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Reply from boymonk
Sep.06.2012
01:56AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "That looks and sounds like infatuation.

Hate has no beginning; no end; no opposite.
"
.........

What about LOVE?!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142104
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Reply from simple
Sep.06.2012
03:59AM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line Love has a beginning.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142109
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.06.2012
07:33AM EDT 
vertical line Pickings have a beginning.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142115
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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.06.2012
08:12AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line There is no sense in trying to figure out the beginning of Karma
Cause only the present is what can be changed.

The beginning of love is me
The end of love is me
Lets start at the beginning again
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.06.2012
08:20AM EDT 
vertical line No.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142123
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Reply from simple
Sep.06.2012
08:23AM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line You are a Picking!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142124
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Reply from simple
Sep.06.2012
08:24AM EDT 
Email simple
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Quote: "Pickings have a beginning."
.........

No picking! Just kicking, Have Fun!

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142125
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.06.2012
08:25AM EDT 
vertical line Every Picking made glorious by the Light of Love.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142126
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Reply from simple
Sep.06.2012
08:31AM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line So Do I.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142128
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.06.2012
09:02AM EDT 
vertical line Where Picking, Picker and Picked are One.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142132
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Reply from starduster
Sep.06.2012
09:26AM EDT 
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Quote: "Love has no cause. "
.........

Virtue is its own reward,

and as often is its only reward.

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Reply from simple
Sep.06.2012
09:42AM EDT 
Email simple
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Quote: "Where Picking, Picker and Picked are One. "
.........

Dont forget the epaulets! :)

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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.08.2012
03:56PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote "I want to practice Zen, but I can't figure out how does Zen go along love. Isn't love one of greatest attachments one can have? I have a girlfriend (soon to be my wife) and I can not hide the fact of her importance to me. Many Zen Masters who have reached enlightenment (For example D.T.Suzuki) had wifes. But how does it make sense?"

........
Zen doesn't destroy your ego and doesn't destroy love
It is a compliment to your life. It allows you to see the truth of our nature and our role in life.
Take your girlfriend to be your wife in an open and honest way. Love her.

When you realize the your true nature or actualized the truth of the Dharma, your capacity for compassion and love will grow. Not diminish.

How does it make sense? A friend asked his Guru "how did Jesus meditate?".
The Guru when into a trance and when he came back, he said he meditated bathe in love.

Where does it say that love and Zen don't get along??
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.08.2012
04:02PM EDT 
vertical line Is that why you don't get along with Jesus?
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Reply from starduster
Sep.09.2012
05:00AM EDT 
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How does it make sense? A friend asked his Guru "how did Jesus meditate?".
The Guru when into a trance and when he came back, he said he meditated bathed in love.
-----------------------------------------------

Yes, I can see that.

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Reply from starduster
Sep.11.2012
05:14AM EDT 
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Quote: "Quote "I want to practice Zen, but I can't figure out how does Zen go along love. Isn't love one of greatest attachments one can have? I have a girlfriend (soon to be my wife) and I can not hide the fact of her importance to me. Many Zen Masters who have reached enlightenment (For example D.T.Suzuki) had wifes. But how does it make sense?"

........
Zen doesn't destroy your ego and doesn't destroy love
It is a compliment to your life. It allows you to see the truth of our nature and our role in life.
Take your girlfriend to be your wife in an open and honest way. Love her.

When you realize the your true nature or actualized the truth of the Dharma, your capacity for compassion and love will grow. Not diminish.

How does it make sense? A friend asked his Guru "how did Jesus meditate?".
The Guru when into a trance and when he came back, he said he meditated bathe in love.

Where does it say that love and Zen don't get along??
"
.........

I still dont know what Zen is.  My concept of it is that *It is the Nothingness from which all things spring*, as in dependent arising, or interdependent arising as the case may be. 

But if asked to define Zen I would have to decline.  I cannot say for sure. 

Love is, I think, just one of the things that arise out of nothingness, and disolve back into It.  We want it to last forever, and if we can find a way it will.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.11.2012
05:52AM EDT 
vertical line I am all that arises.
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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.11.2012
08:57AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line hot not spot he got rot
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142502
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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.11.2012
10:32AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I still dont know what Zen is.  My concept of it is that *It is the Nothingness from which all things spring*, as in dependent arising, or interdependent arising as the case may be. 

But if asked to define Zen I would have to decline.  I cannot say for sure. 

Love is, I think, just one of the things that arise out of nothingness, and disolve back into It.  We want it to last forever, and if we can find a way it will.

"
.........

Zen is simply the practice of Zazen. Everything else that Zen is comes from the people who practice Zazen. In another community of Zen, those people determine what Zen is .. So you can see that Zen is like water ..in that it changes to suit whatever container holds it. Define it? I can not cause people are different. The only thing that is the same is the practice.

As for love, it is a capacity of this body and this mind. It makes people into friends and family. Compassion is another feature of this body and this mind. I think we should just enjoy our capacity to feel good.

I'm sorry to speak out of turn. I mean no disrespect. Just that from my point of view .. things are simpler in definition. It needs no air of mystery. No ideals from which to praise. Well, again sorry.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.11.2012
10:41AM EDT 
vertical line Also baked clay tablets of an alphabet script.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142512
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Reply from esoteric
Sep.11.2012
11:56AM EDT 
vertical line Love, you guys. Enjoy living, and help others to do the same. :-)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142523
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Reply from starduster
Sep.12.2012
05:15AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "I still dont know what Zen is.  My concept of it is that *It is the Nothingness from which all things spring*, as in dependent arising, or interdependent arising as the case may be. 

But if asked to define Zen I would have to decline.  I cannot say for sure. 

Love is, I think, just one of the things that arise out of nothingness, and disolve back into It.  We want it to last forever, and if we can find a way it will.

"
.........

Zen is simply the practice of Zazen. Everything else that Zen is comes from the people who practice Zazen. In another community of Zen, those people determine what Zen is .. So you can see that Zen is like water ..in that it changes to suit whatever container holds it. Define it? I can not cause people are different. The only thing that is the same is the practice.

As for love, it is a capacity of this body and this mind. It makes people into friends and family. Compassion is another feature of this body and this mind. I think we should just enjoy our capacity to feel good.

I'm sorry to speak out of turn. I mean no disrespect. Just that from my point of view .. things are simpler in definition. It needs no air of mystery. No ideals from which to praise. Well, again sorry.
"
.........

"
.........

Zen is simply the practice of Zazen. Everything else that Zen is comes from the people who practice Zazen. In another community of Zen, those people determine what Zen is .. So you can see that Zen is like water ..in that it changes to suit whatever container holds it. Define it? I can not cause people are different. The only thing that is the same is the practice.

As for love, it is a capacity of this body and this mind. It makes people into friends and family. Compassion is another feature of this body and this mind. I think we should just enjoy our capacity to feel good.

I'm sorry to speak out of turn. I mean no disrespect. Just that from my point of view .. things are simpler in definition. It needs no air of mystery. No ideals from which to praise. Well, again sorry.
"
.........

To say that Zen is just the practice of Zazen is like the electrician who says that to understand electricity you hook up the wires, flip the switch and the light goes on.

In a way hes right about that.  But that does not define electricity in and of itself.

Einstein comes closest when he says, *Nothing truly exists except the energy that everything is made of.*  Maybe if he had stopped at, *Nothing truly exists* he might have come even closer.  But then he was a physicist talking about physical reality, not metaphysical non-reality.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.12.2012
08:05AM EDT 
vertical line I am this world and I eat this world.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142556
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Reply from starduster
Sep.12.2012
08:49AM EDT 
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Quote: "I am this world and I eat this world. "
.........

Sort of like biting your fingernails.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.12.2012
08:52AM EDT 
vertical line Absolutely not.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142560
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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.12.2012
03:16PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Zen is simply the practice of Zazen. Everything else that Zen is comes from the people who practice Zazen. In another community of Zen, those people determine what Zen is .. So you can see that Zen is like water ..in that it changes to suit whatever container holds it. Define it? I can not cause people are different. The only thing that is the same is the practice.

As for love, it is a capacity of this body and this mind. It makes people into friends and family. Compassion is another feature of this body and this mind. I think we should just enjoy our capacity to feel good.

I'm sorry to speak out of turn. I mean no disrespect. Just that from my point of view .. things are simpler in definition. It needs no air of mystery. No ideals from which to praise. Well, again sorry.
"
.........

To say that Zen is just the practice of Zazen is like the electrician who says that to understand electricity you hook up the wires, flip the switch and the light goes on.

In a way hes right about that.  But that does not define electricity in and of itself.

Einstein comes closest when he says, *Nothing truly exists except the energy that everything is made of.*  Maybe if he had stopped at, *Nothing truly exists* he might have come even closer.  But then he was a physicist talking about physical reality, not metaphysical non-reality.

"
.........
That is not all I said about Zen. It is the people who practice Zazen that make it was it is.
The meaning of that is .. whoever is practicing is the relevant  person(s) .. whether it is now or 700 years ago or 1500 years ago.
They make Zen what it is and what Zen means to others.
You get caught up in thinking that Zen is more. It is not.
The people who practice Zazen bring Zen to life. Not the practice by itself.
And definitely not the pages written about Zen.
There is no point in mystifying Zen. Exasperated ...
I'm guessing it is a meaningless point since you have chosen to not to understand.

Energy is meaningless without direction.
An explosion in space can only cause havoc.
An explosion in a cylinder (as in your car engine) gives it direction thereby making it useful.

Never mind ...
I'm sorry but you discount the relevance of the people involved with Zen.
While all I see is the community that make Zen what it is today.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142569
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Reply from so_teh
Sep.12.2012
04:56PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Love, what is.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142572
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Reply from esoteric
Sep.12.2012
11:00PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Zen is simply the practice of Zazen. Everything else that Zen is comes from the people who practice Zazen. In another community of Zen, those people determine what Zen is .. So you can see that Zen is like water ..in that it changes to suit whatever container holds it. Define it? I can not cause people are different. The only thing that is the same is the practice.

As for love, it is a capacity of this body and this mind. It makes people into friends and family. Compassion is another feature of this body and this mind. I think we should just enjoy our capacity to feel good.

I'm sorry to speak out of turn. I mean no disrespect. Just that from my point of view .. things are simpler in definition. It needs no air of mystery. No ideals from which to praise. Well, again sorry.
"
.........

To say that Zen is just the practice of Zazen is like the electrician who says that to understand electricity you hook up the wires, flip the switch and the light goes on.

In a way hes right about that.  But that does not define electricity in and of itself.

Einstein comes closest when he says, *Nothing truly exists except the energy that everything is made of.*  Maybe if he had stopped at, *Nothing truly exists* he might have come even closer.  But then he was a physicist talking about physical reality, not metaphysical non-reality.

"
.........
That is not all I said about Zen. It is the people who practice Zazen that make it was it is.
The meaning of that is .. whoever is practicing is the relevant  person(s) .. whether it is now or 700 years ago or 1500 years ago.
They make Zen what it is and what Zen means to others.
You get caught up in thinking that Zen is more. It is not.
The people who practice Zazen bring Zen to life. Not the practice by itself.
And definitely not the pages written about Zen.
There is no point in mystifying Zen. Exasperated ...
I'm guessing it is a meaningless point since you have chosen to not to understand.

Energy is meaningless without direction.
An explosion in space can only cause havoc.
An explosion in a cylinder (as in your car engine) gives it direction thereby making it useful.

Never mind ...
I'm sorry but you discount the relevance of the people involved with Zen.
While all I see is the community that make Zen what it is today.
"
.........

You got caught up in thinking that Zen is more. Pay attention to your own mind. Other people's minds aren't any of your business.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142584
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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.12.2012
11:25PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "You got caught up in thinking that Zen is more. Pay attention to your own mind. Other people's minds aren't any of your business.
"
.........

It is our capacity to think and communicate that makes us more than animals.
The ability to understand another mind is truly amazing.
To limit oneself to ones own mind is to shut out the light of the sun.
What would life be without music and stories that other have created??

The difference is in not clinging to a single point or to stay stubborn.
Classical music is fine but rock and roll has its merits too.
Shakespeare is a fine collection of tales but mother goose also has it tales to be told.
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Reply from esoteric
Sep.13.2012
01:07AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "You got caught up in thinking that Zen is more. Pay attention to your own mind. Other people's minds aren't any of your business.
"
.........

It is our capacity to think and communicate that makes us more than animals.
The ability to understand another mind is truly amazing.
To limit oneself to ones own mind is to shut out the light of the sun.
What would life be without music and stories that other have created??
"
.........

Your capacity to think and communicate just makes you an animal that thinks and communicates.
How can you understand another mind if you don't understand your own mind?
How can you possibly NOT be limited to your own mind? Show me something that lies outside of it.
And you ask what life would be...but can you say what life IS?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142593
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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.13.2012
02:11AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "You got caught up in thinking that Zen is more. Pay attention to your own mind. Other people's minds aren't any of your business.
"
.........

It is our capacity to think and communicate that makes us more than animals.
The ability to understand another mind is truly amazing.
To limit oneself to ones own mind is to shut out the light of the sun.
What would life be without music and stories that other have created??
"
.........

Your capacity to think and communicate just makes you an animal that thinks and communicates.
How can you understand another mind if you don't understand your own mind?
How can you possibly NOT be limited to your own mind? Show me something that lies outside of it.
And you ask what life would be...but can you say what life IS?
"
.........

You have your point of view. Why are you forcing it upon me??
Do you believe you are correcting me??
Do you think you're are the only one who can be right?
Do you want me to change my views to match yours?
You have said many things here and all of which seems to contradict the next thing you say.

The very fact that you can read my words and understand my point of view shows that we are more than animals with only instinct to guide our actions.

Understanding another person doesn't require understanding your own mind completely. We are born with the capacity to empathize, to sympathize, to feel and be compassionate. Do we need to understand these feelings before we can feel?

You want something that lies outside of your mind ... Zen, samadhi, satori and all things outside your present understanding. I am not limited by the mind cause Buddha has shown that there is more to us than just this. And yet, there is only this. Hahaha.

The rest of your questions you will have to answer yourself. I tire of this Zen stink.
I need soup to refresh me.
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Reply from starduster
Sep.13.2012
04:49AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Zen is simply the practice of Zazen. Everything else that Zen is comes from the people who practice Zazen. In another community of Zen, those people determine what Zen is .. So you can see that Zen is like water ..in that it changes to suit whatever container holds it. Define it? I can not cause people are different. The only thing that is the same is the practice.

As for love, it is a capacity of this body and this mind. It makes people into friends and family. Compassion is another feature of this body and this mind. I think we should just enjoy our capacity to feel good.

I'm sorry to speak out of turn. I mean no disrespect. Just that from my point of view .. things are simpler in definition. It needs no air of mystery. No ideals from which to praise. Well, again sorry.
"
.........

To say that Zen is just the practice of Zazen is like the electrician who says that to understand electricity you hook up the wires, flip the switch and the light goes on.

In a way hes right about that.  But that does not define electricity in and of itself.

Einstein comes closest when he says, *Nothing truly exists except the energy that everything is made of.*  Maybe if he had stopped at, *Nothing truly exists* he might have come even closer.  But then he was a physicist talking about physical reality, not metaphysical non-reality.

"
.........
That is not all I said about Zen. It is the people who practice Zazen that make it was it is.
The meaning of that is .. whoever is practicing is the relevant  person(s) .. whether it is now or 700 years ago or 1500 years ago.
They make Zen what it is and what Zen means to others.
You get caught up in thinking that Zen is more. It is not.
The people who practice Zazen bring Zen to life. Not the practice by itself.
And definitely not the pages written about Zen.
There is no point in mystifying Zen. Exasperated ...
I'm guessing it is a meaningless point since you have chosen to not to understand.

Energy is meaningless without direction.
An explosion in space can only cause havoc.
An explosion in a cylinder (as in your car engine) gives it direction thereby making it useful.

Never mind ...
I'm sorry but you discount the relevance of the people involved with Zen.
While all I see is the community that make Zen what it is today.
"
.........

"
.........
That is not all I said about Zen. It is the people who practice Zazen that make it was it is.
The meaning of that is .. whoever is practicing is the relevant  person(s) .. whether it is now or 700 years ago or 1500 years ago.
They make Zen what it is and what Zen means to others.
You get caught up in thinking that Zen is more. It is not.
The people who practice Zazen bring Zen to life. Not the practice by itself.
And definitely not the pages written about Zen.
There is no point in mystifying Zen. Exasperated ...
I'm guessing it is a meaningless point since you have chosen to not to understand.

Energy is meaningless without direction.
An explosion in space can only cause havoc.
An explosion in a cylinder (as in your car engine) gives it direction thereby making it useful.

Never mind ...
I'm sorry but you discount the relevance of the people involved with Zen.
While all I see is the community that make Zen what it is today.
"
.........

Im not human.  I owe no loyalty to humanity.  But still I do have compassion when I see others in pain, whatever their form.

Human form is only one of many that I have taken, and still I depart from it in my astral travels to other planes of existence, other dimensions on a regular basis.  Quite commonly, I am a disembodied awareness in my visions, hovering, watching, able to fly at the speed of thought, which I call *zooming*, and to get into and feel just about anything, animal, vegetable, or mineral. 

I think of that as my natural state.  It is the means by which I occupy this body, but sometimes I project out of it into something else too.  It is a very strange thing to see yourself standing there, through someone elses eyes.

You dont have to die to get to *the other side*, or even just around in this world, you just need a working body to come back.

Houdini didnt understand that.  He promised to try to come back after death, but by then its too late.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.13.2012
07:35AM EDT 
vertical line That stinker is aviator's minb on brain soup.
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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.13.2012
08:06AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "That stinker is aviator's minb on brain soup."
.........
Why don't you rename yourself "Joe Quip"??
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.13.2012
08:07AM EDT 
vertical line Your bite is unsound.
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Reply from esoteric
Sep.13.2012
09:34AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "You got caught up in thinking that Zen is more. Pay attention to your own mind. Other people's minds aren't any of your business.
"
.........

It is our capacity to think and communicate that makes us more than animals.
The ability to understand another mind is truly amazing.
To limit oneself to ones own mind is to shut out the light of the sun.
What would life be without music and stories that other have created??
"
.........

Your capacity to think and communicate just makes you an animal that thinks and communicates.
How can you understand another mind if you don't understand your own mind?
How can you possibly NOT be limited to your own mind? Show me something that lies outside of it.
And you ask what life would be...but can you say what life IS?
"
.........

You have your point of view. Why are you forcing it upon me??
Do you believe you are correcting me??
Do you think you're are the only one who can be right?
Do you want me to change my views to match yours?
You have said many things here and all of which seems to contradict the next thing you say.

The very fact that you can read my words and understand my point of view shows that we are more than animals with only instinct to guide our actions.

Understanding another person doesn't require understanding your own mind completely. We are born with the capacity to empathize, to sympathize, to feel and be compassionate. Do we need to understand these feelings before we can feel?

You want something that lies outside of your mind ... Zen, samadhi, satori and all things outside your present understanding. I am not limited by the mind cause Buddha has shown that there is more to us than just this. And yet, there is only this. Hahaha.

The rest of your questions you will have to answer yourself. I tire of this Zen stink.
I need soup to refresh me.
"
.........

It's interesting that I posted a bunch of questions, but you saw them as "points of view" and wanting something, when they were quite NOT those things.

Anyone need a mirror? I have one, and it's free.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.13.2012
10:01AM EDT 
vertical line •Ï1 ¢ î
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Reply from starduster
Sep.13.2012
10:58AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "You got caught up in thinking that Zen is more. Pay attention to your own mind. Other people's minds aren't any of your business.
"
.........

It is our capacity to think and communicate that makes us more than animals.
The ability to understand another mind is truly amazing.
To limit oneself to ones own mind is to shut out the light of the sun.
What would life be without music and stories that other have created??
"
.........

Your capacity to think and communicate just makes you an animal that thinks and communicates.
How can you understand another mind if you don't understand your own mind?
How can you possibly NOT be limited to your own mind? Show me something that lies outside of it.
And you ask what life would be...but can you say what life IS?
"
.........

You have your point of view. Why are you forcing it upon me??
Do you believe you are correcting me??
Do you think you're are the only one who can be right?
Do you want me to change my views to match yours?
You have said many things here and all of which seems to contradict the next thing you say.

The very fact that you can read my words and understand my point of view shows that we are more than animals with only instinct to guide our actions.

Understanding another person doesn't require understanding your own mind completely. We are born with the capacity to empathize, to sympathize, to feel and be compassionate. Do we need to understand these feelings before we can feel?

You want something that lies outside of your mind ... Zen, samadhi, satori and all things outside your present understanding. I am not limited by the mind cause Buddha has shown that there is more to us than just this. And yet, there is only this. Hahaha.

The rest of your questions you will have to answer yourself. I tire of this Zen stink.
I need soup to refresh me.
"
.........

It's interesting that I posted a bunch of questions, but you saw them as "points of view" and wanting something, when they were quite NOT those things.

Anyone need a mirror? I have one, and it's free.
"
.........

Free advice is usually worth what you paid for it.

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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.13.2012
12:18PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Your capacity to think and communicate just makes you an animal that thinks and communicates.
How can you understand another mind if you don't understand your own mind?
How can you possibly NOT be limited to your own mind? Show me something that lies outside of it.
And you ask what life would be...but can you say what life IS?
"
.........

It's interesting that I posted a bunch of questions, but you saw them as "points of view" and wanting something, when they were quite NOT those things.

Anyone need a mirror? I have one, and it's free.
"
.........
In bold are your statements.
The rest are questions you asked of me and I answered them.
You don't like it ... too bad.
Grow a pair and take responsibility for your actions and words.
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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.13.2012
01:08PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Questions do come from a point of view.
Whether you choose to acknowledge this or not.
You make a statement which contradicts my statement
And then you question my point of view.
So, to you, it is only a bunch of questions and not a point of view??
Exactly how did you expect me to respond??

Hmm, it is interesting that you choose not to stand by your words.
That they can mean whatever you choose them to be .. whenever you choose.
Take them out of context of the conversation.
They are only a bunch of questions and not a point of view ... sure, thanks for nothing.

It seems that there are a lot of Joe Quip here.
Do a hit and run with short statements .. unrelated or not ... it is hard to tell.
I shake my head and walk away.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.13.2012
01:19PM EDT 
vertical line Short, to the point.
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Reply from football
Sep.13.2012
01:27PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line bungee jumping
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Reply from so_teh
Sep.13.2012
03:36PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line The Art of Minding One's Own
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Reply from esoteric
Sep.13.2012
06:55PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Your capacity to think and communicate just makes you an animal that thinks and communicates.
How can you understand another mind if you don't understand your own mind?
How can you possibly NOT be limited to your own mind? Show me something that lies outside of it.
And you ask what life would be...but can you say what life IS?
"
.........

It's interesting that I posted a bunch of questions, but you saw them as "points of view" and wanting something, when they were quite NOT those things.

Anyone need a mirror? I have one, and it's free.
"
.........
In bold are your statements.
The rest are questions you asked of me and I answered them.
You don't like it ... too bad.
Grow a pair and take responsibility for your actions and words.
"
.........

You said you wanted something. But I forgot what it was.
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Reply from esoteric
Sep.13.2012
06:56PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Questions do come from a point of view.
Whether you choose to acknowledge this or not.
You make a statement which contradicts my statement
And then you question my point of view.
So, to you, it is only a bunch of questions and not a point of view??
Exactly how did you expect me to respond??

Hmm, it is interesting that you choose not to stand by your words.
That they can mean whatever you choose them to be .. whenever you choose.
Take them out of context of the conversation.
They are only a bunch of questions and not a point of view ... sure, thanks for nothing.

It seems that there are a lot of Joe Quip here.
Do a hit and run with short statements .. unrelated or not ... it is hard to tell.
I shake my head and walk away.
"
.........

Maybe if you sit zazen, it will all come to you.
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Reply from so_teh
Sep.13.2012
09:36PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line It was a grey day today, all day. It wasn't sure if it wanted to rain or not. Then this evening it rained for awhile. The sky opened up just in time for a beautiful colorful sunset. In such an instance the grey drear of the day then bursts out in lovely light. No one understands each other it feels sometimes but we look into our heart now and again opening [this light] to come around in common purpose. I'm just better off shutting in until I'm moved by that which awakes.
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Reply from so_teh
Sep.13.2012
10:18PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Quote: "It was a grey day today, all day. It wasn't sure if it wanted to rain or not. Then this evening it rained for awhile. The sky opened up just in time for a beautiful colorful sunset. In such an instance the grey drear of the day then bursts out in lovely light. No one understands each other it feels sometimes but we look into our heart now and again opening [this light] to come around in common purpose. I'm just better off shutting in until I'm moved by that which awakes. "
.........

This is kind of about what happened to me today in the parking lot. The guy thought I dinged his car with my door. Then what followed was his senseless rage, cursing and name calling. It was just over the top anger. My older brother was with me for some back up and I really thought I was going to have to fight this guy. That never happened, thankfully. But he just blew it all out of proportion. There was just nothing I could say but sorry, not for not hitting his car, but just for the angryness he had. Gandhi said, "I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet." That's exactly how I handled it. My brother and I couldn't help but laugh when we got into the restaurant.
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Reply from so_teh
Sep.13.2012
10:39PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line "The way is not in the sky. The way is in the heart." ~Buddha
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.14.2012
07:07AM EDT 
vertical line "I saw my Lord with the eye of the heart.
I said: Who art Thou?
He answered: Thou."
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Reply from starduster
Sep.14.2012
07:21AM EDT 
vertical line

Its a cold, hard world and always has been.

Its a world that is eating itself.  It will get me eventually.

Im getting older and my body is breaking down, but Im haning in there, still ambulatory, still working.  I was smart to pick a sedentary job I can grow old in. 

When I sit I just sit.  When I sleep or meditate I go home to the Void.  Home.  The place of my earliest memory.  Home again with the Spirit, my true love.

And then I wake up into a cold, hard world again, that is eating me.

I feel lucky to have any kind of break or respite, let alone such a beautiful one that ultimately will last forever.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.14.2012
08:08AM EDT 
vertical line The world is a corpse.
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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.14.2012
11:49AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "It was a grey day today, all day. It wasn't sure if it wanted to rain or not. Then this evening it rained for awhile. The sky opened up just in time for a beautiful colorful sunset. In such an instance the grey drear of the day then bursts out in lovely light. No one understands each other it feels sometimes but we look into our heart now and again opening [this light] to come around in common purpose. I'm just better off shutting in until I'm moved by that which awakes. "
.........

This is kind of about what happened to me today in the parking lot. The guy thought I dinged his car with my door. Then what followed was his senseless rage, cursing and name calling. It was just over the top anger. My older brother was with me for some back up and I really thought I was going to have to fight this guy. That never happened, thankfully. But he just blew it all out of proportion. There was just nothing I could say but sorry, not for not hitting his car, but just for the angryness he had. Gandhi said, "I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet." That's exactly how I handled it. My brother and I couldn't help but laugh when we got into the restaurant.
"
.........

When I went shopping for groceries, I put mu car in the parking lot near the entrance. I thought i was lucky to get a space so close to the doors. After finishing up at the store, I came out to see that my car door was pushed in by the car next to me trying to get out of their space. At first there was confusion. Then, I had a choice. I could either get upset and get mad. Or, I could just not get attached to the car door. I chose to let it go. Not a lot I could do since the person did a hit and run. So, it gave me the understanding of how .. if we are attached to things then we suffer when things change unexpectedly. And, if we let things go then suffering is lessened .. not that there is no suffering. I mean my car door is still messed up.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.14.2012
12:53PM EDT 
vertical line Suffering is a messed up car door.
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Reply from so_teh
Sep.14.2012
01:49PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line My usual thought about parking is parking way out of range from the rest of the cars nearly in the back of the parking lot. Haha.
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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.16.2012
10:11AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Suffering is a messed up car door. "
.........

Hahaha .. no, it is not.
Suffering is you having a messed up car door.
Any car door being messed up .. well, that is just meaningless.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.16.2012
10:23AM EDT 
vertical line It's your messed up car door - feel the bumps on it.
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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.16.2012
09:27PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "It's your messed up car door - feel the bumps on it."
.........
I'd rather feel the bumps on your head.
Don't have any?
We can make some and then determine what it means ... hahaha
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Reply from leoj99
Sep.16.2012
11:23PM EDT 
vertical line You will become a better lover if you practice Zen....lol
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Reply from starduster
Sep.17.2012
06:02AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "You will become a better lover if you practice Zen....lol "
.........

Yes, go down, stay down, become One with it,

and let her feel the bumps on your head.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.17.2012
07:18AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "It's your messed up car door - feel the bumps on it."
.........
I'd rather feel the bumps on your head.
Don't have any?
We can make some and then determine what it means ... hahaha
"
.........

Never mind the va va voom, feel the Carma.
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Reply from zbishak
Sep.17.2012
07:25AM EDT 
Email zbishak
vertical line

hello quantum zen

love only makes sense when one realizes that all is love.

the love that you are fully blooms when its no longer restricted by thoughts and objects of your desire

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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.17.2012
08:50AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "It's your messed up car door - feel the bumps on it."
.........
I'd rather feel the bumps on your head.
Don't have any?
We can make some and then determine what it means ... hahaha
"
.........

Never mind the va va voom, feel the Carma.
"
.........
Never mind the da da doom, feel the Pharma. "
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Reply from starduster
Sep.17.2012
08:59AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

hello quantum zen

love only makes sense when one realizes that all is love.

the love that you are fully blooms when its no longer restricted by thoughts and objects of your desire

"
.........

"
.........

I have experienced boundless love, infinite, beyond my comprehension,

and the love that I have, and feel from, the one of my desire isnt close to that,

but I still want it, for me, and for her, for us.

Of course, I know it is just a small part of the Spirits infinite love,

but as long as that is okay with the Spirit its okay with me too.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.17.2012
09:01AM EDT 
vertical line Simply Karma.
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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.18.2012
05:21AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Simply Karma."
.........
Prove it ... prove it is simply karma.
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Reply from starduster
Sep.18.2012
05:23AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Simply Karma."
.........

The one that reminds me of you in my meditation,

and maybe is you on a subconscious level, or so I think,

referred to it as *poetic justice*.

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Reply from so_teh
Oct.02.2012
06:07PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Hah! Okay, so, I was charged by this chick over the internet for awhile. I cannot describe what it was, call it love or zen. That's what I mean by charged, like charging a cell phone. I don't know, it lasted then I began loosing energy, thinking of all the ways it was a false hope. It was just a funny feeling I got from her, in a good way. Some connection got plugged in on the brain. The whole ordeal i'm not going to discuss but once that neuro transmitting happens, damn it! it's never going to go away or fully be unplugged! Oh well, no regrets...besides no matter how stunning someone is to the shallow pool of fish their bodies are only good for a fright!
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.02.2012
06:14PM EDT 
vertical line I'm about to sit down to supper.
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Reply from so_teh
Oct.02.2012
06:23PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Mmmhm.. I think it was just the spice flowing...Now that the flow is over I feel somewhat empty enough to share.

I also just warmed up some left overs.

Chicken
Mashed Potatoes/Gravy
Stuffing
Roasted Butternut Squash
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.02.2012
06:25PM EDT 
vertical line Bread, cheese, olives and wine to share.
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Reply from so_teh
Oct.02.2012
06:27PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line :)
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Reply from so_teh
Oct.02.2012
10:32PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line The future sings!

24 next year...
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Reply from so_teh
Oct.02.2012
10:38PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Or something...
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Reply from so_teh
Oct.02.2012
10:52PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Say  it aint so. 
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Reply from starduster
Oct.03.2012
05:34AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Hah! Okay, so, I was charged by this chick over the internet for awhile. I cannot describe what it was, call it love or zen. That's what I mean by charged, like charging a cell phone. I don't know, it lasted then I began loosing energy, thinking of all the ways it was a false hope. It was just a funny feeling I got from her, in a good way. Some connection got plugged in on the brain. The whole ordeal i'm not going to discuss but once that neuro transmitting happens, damn it! it's never going to go away or fully be unplugged! Oh well, no regrets...besides no matter how stunning someone is to the shallow pool of fish their bodies are only good for a fright! "
.........

I met a girl here some time ago.  We emailed, then wrote, sent each other pictures.  Even talked about her coming over from Scotland and doing an *immigration marriage*, but my father, a lawyer, counselled me against that saying that in five years I would either lose half my stuff or confess to immigration fraud, whichever I preferred.

Then I shared some photos with her on a Kodak website, and got back a confirmation that my pics had been shared with *David* at her email address.  Evidently David had an account with Kodak too.  How bout that !?

Im not too interested in meeting people online anymore after that fiasco.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.03.2012
06:58AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "The future sings!

24 next year...


"
.........

Great song.
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Reply from football
Oct.03.2012
07:11AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line

Beautiful example of what we wish and what life brings us, starduster.

Life is a compassion of a Barbarian.

now ok...:)

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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.03.2012
07:38AM EDT 
vertical line Interstate


Loose Change
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Reply from Avisitor
Oct.03.2012
07:46AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I met a girl here some time ago.  We emailed, then wrote, sent each other pictures.  Even talked about her coming over from Scotland and doing an *immigration marriage*, but my father, a lawyer, counselled me against that saying that in five years I would either lose half my stuff or confess to immigration fraud, whichever I preferred.

Then I shared some photos with her on a Kodak website, and got back a confirmation that my pics had been shared with *David* at her email address.  Evidently David had an account with Kodak too.  How bout that !?

Im not too interested in meeting people online anymore after that fiasco.

"
.........

Hope things turn out better then next time you meet a woman on line ........ or not?
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Reply from football
Oct.03.2012
07:49AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6ibl6PIKPM

this is my favorite...

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Reply from starduster
Oct.04.2012
05:28AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Beautiful example of what we wish and what life brings us, starduster.

Life is a compassion of a Barbarian.

now ok...:)

"
.........

"
.........

Life is a balance of wanting what you need, and needing what you want,

until you get down to just accepting what you have.

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Reply from so_teh
Oct.06.2012
09:18PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line A little prayer, meditation and conversation goes a long way. (Further than I thought. -_-)
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Reply from so_teh
Oct.06.2012
10:59PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line So, if you are interested in putting love and zen into perspective. Check out "Autobiography of a Yogi" (for Love). And "I Am That" (for Zen). K?
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.07.2012
01:52AM EDT 
vertical line Contrariwise, you could put love and Zen into perspective by looking at them, practicing them, and looking at yourself looking and practicing. :-P
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.07.2012
07:12AM EDT 
vertical line Jesus karma, treely freely.
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