history principles practice stories, books, media discussion forum organizations resources
zenguide.com logo
 
Thursday Apr 17 2014 06:54AM ET
º login º register º email º guestbook º printer friendly
grey dot
  Once upon a time, in a certain town there was a coffin maker who opened and was running a store where he sold the coffins he made himself to the customers in the neighborhood. The popuplation in the town increased day-by-day.

The... continue...

z
.
e
.
n
menu left history menu spacer principles menu spacer practice menu spacer zen media menu spacer discussion forum menu spacer organization directory menu spacer resources  
login
  DISCUSSION FORUM
» topic list   » start a new topic   » my tracked topics   » view topic
grey dot

horizontal line
→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: PRACTICE
vertical line Posted on Sep.06.2012 @ 08:26AM EDT by Avisitor
When talking about practice, someone chimed in and said that we aren't trying to have moment to moment awareness but we are looking to see into our true nature.
The whole idea about practice is to provide for the right condition for actualization of seeing into our true nature.
So, I wanted to jump back and stomp on him. To say we shouldn't put the horse in front of the cart.
Then, I sat there looking into my own reactions. I made a choice to not say anything.
Looking like the fool for someone else to launch their ideas isn't a new thing.
Defending myself and my ideas is not new. But, making a choice to do otherwise is new.
I'm not sure if I like being like this .. all in control of my emotions.
Damn, why am I like this?

Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email Avisitor
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.06.2012
08:31AM EDT 
vertical line If you can't stand the heat ...
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142127
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from simple
Sep.06.2012
08:36AM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line Well said!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142129
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.06.2012
10:08AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "If you can't stand the heat ...
.........

Well said!"
.........

What heat? I gave the heat up to be in control.
Said, well??

In participating in conversations, it is customary to make more than just snippets.
Comments are welcome ... just not well received ...  haha

Be of good cheer,
Santa must be near???
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142139
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.06.2012
10:42AM EDT 
vertical line Glowball Warning.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142144
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.06.2012
12:23PM EDT 
vertical line A harvest of soup is sown in cabbages by those who make cabbages with their own internal weather system of here-conditioning and the illusion of climate control - OR - Alphabet soup is a vichyssoise of verbiage. Consommé? Don't touch that dial.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142150
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from boymonk
Sep.06.2012
01:10PM EDT 
vertical line You're not. Not in control of your emo's, that is.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142155
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.06.2012
02:22PM EDT 
vertical line Thermal biological regulation effect.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142159
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from sit_teh
Sep.06.2012
02:26PM EDT 
Email sit_teh
vertical line Why else practice if not for the heart. What needs attention most lives in choiceless attention on the heart. Source holds your heart to life. Silently witness that anytime you'd like.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142160
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from sit_teh
Sep.06.2012
02:31PM EDT 
Email sit_teh
vertical line You are [that which is aware] of your thoughts, feelings, body sensations and circumstances in your life.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142161
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.06.2012
02:36PM EDT 
vertical line It's a s h i t business.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142162
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from sit_teh
Sep.06.2012
02:55PM EDT 
Email sit_teh
vertical line I just got off the can.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142163
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Riverstone
Sep.06.2012
03:32PM EDT 
vertical line Yes, the leaning neither for nor against is part and parcel of practice.

As for the horse before the carriage, I believe that is just one way, awareness before insight, insight before awareness, gradual, immediate, within a single life time, over several lifetimes. Each form of Buddhism is different. If you start arguing all of that you are getting caught up in details and lean toward or against in a dualistic fashion. A rather slippery path.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142164
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.06.2012
05:28PM EDT 
vertical line There you stand, doing the other.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142168
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.06.2012
05:50PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Yes, the leaning neither for nor against is part and parcel of practice.

As for the horse before the carriage, I believe that is just one way, awareness before insight, insight before awareness, gradual, immediate, within a single life time, over several lifetimes. Each form of Buddhism is different. If you start arguing all of that you are getting caught up in details and lean toward or against in a dualistic fashion. A rather slippery path.
"
.........
I understand to argue one's opinion is giving into one's emotions .. pride, and what have you
But, how does not arguing .. not give into the dualistic fashion of leaning toward or against??
The path is already slippery .. with or without the leaning
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142169
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from genericzen
Sep.06.2012
11:29PM EDT 
Email genericzen
vertical line hmm ultimately all is illusion, there is only one consciousness, and that consciousness is simply being, everything is zazen, to give way and not defend, or to try to explain oneself further, every path is equal, no higher nor lower, no greater attainment to be find in us or any other, no loss either, when we understand there is really nothing, though how beautiful are the illusions, thats all they can be, love is the only which exists regardless of existence or nonexistence, simply be as you are, there is nothing that can ultimately be arrived at. What is all this zen? nothingness
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142186
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.06.2012
11:55PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "hmm ultimately all is illusion, there is only one consciousness, and that consciousness is simply being, everything is zazen, to give way and not defend, or to try to explain oneself further, every path is equal, no higher nor lower, no greater attainment to be find in us or any other, no loss either, when we understand there is really nothing, though how beautiful are the illusions, thats all they can be, love is the only which exists regardless of existence or nonexistence, simply be as you are, there is nothing that can ultimately be arrived at. What is all this zen? nothingness "
.........
Nothingness can be found at the bottom of a beer bottle or a prescription bottle.
Nothingness is worse when you're alone and you come across two guys intent on taking you away from your money or loved ones.

No matter what you say about life being an illusion ... when you get a knife rammed into your gut, you know what is real. And, as the blood flows and consciousness disappears from your eyes, sure .. it is only an illusion created by your mind and thoughts. You can't use linear concepts and logic to describe that which lies outside your understanding but not out of your experience.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142196
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from genericzen
Sep.07.2012
12:03AM EDT 
Email genericzen
vertical line true but you reveal here where your practice lacks...

is that stuff which you mention ever really going to happen? not to anyone who is truly on the path well enough to know that all is nothingness, who has read the lotus sutra and realizes that Kuan Yin wards off all misfortunes

Namo Kuan Shi Yin Bodhisattva

practice non attachment, don't create such horrid images in the mind, you will find you never truly come across them, for there are truly emptiness only caused by delusion,
and if it does happen, consider it a nonlinear teaching of the Buddha in form of the higher self, it is the most sacred kind of koan, meditate upon it, and even after your experience of it, you will see it too had never really occur fades into nothing and had never been

fill your mind not with worries, there is no zen in this, simply live, do not feign to divine the future or be living some kind of responsible life, respond to each moment, and escape from any overarching system of understand for all of this is only self fulfilling prophecy, nothing more
live in nothing moment to moment, die to everything
if you must remember something
remember just that everyone is the buddha, that all is emptiness
bring up the image of love and have no attachment to senses then it will  be with you always
no matter what perception
all is empty yes, but it will be the compassion your body needs while in this realm
and this is spiritually whole, it doesn't make sense but it is real
until you can please yourself in this way, joyous, without killing the dharma with fears
but letting it grow as much as possible, without thought of past or future
you are not on the true buddha path
but of course, you knew this  already and always, and what is all this but your eternal love shining out in nondual drunkenness, your slurs are beautiful and cry out as the highest blissful truth
i bask in awe though all is unreal, the droplets of love, they are beyond this and that









vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142197
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from genericzen
Sep.07.2012
12:08AM EDT 
Email genericzen
vertical line what we truly have to defend against is not the one stabbing us randomly in the street, but the thought of it arising

this thought simply a waste, for one who lives in zen, there is but this one moment, live to the fullest, let compassion overflow from you, imagine no other being

should death come, it does come, it is the final enlightenment, think not upon it, dont try to predict, just live it, and it happens always

this is not a world of suffering

fill it with thoughts of completeness
all beings are already enlightened
every option is the perfection of wisdom
cease striving

the truth is we all live in this

there are some delusional worlds, where minds imagine themselves to be surrounded by fears and a world of incompletely of problems, where everyone is constantly trying to fix something or someone is always sad, the political world

the only way out for them is to begin growing the dharma of the true unending happiness themselves, soon it connects through even to that realm
and the enlightenment goes on, and on


vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142198
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from genericzen
Sep.07.2012
12:10AM EDT 
Email genericzen
vertical line if it comes it just comes, it is incomprehendible
what does living in fear do but make you poor of the true wealth of lucidity right now?
live in love, everyone around you loves you and is love with all things, as you are
a sudden change may arise
that is sudden nibbana
rainbow body
spontaneous combustion
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142199
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.07.2012
01:23AM EDT 
vertical line Yeah. Or conversely, you could just sit back and enjoy a cup of tea.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142201
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.07.2012
06:26AM EDT 
vertical line Do you mean to say that aVisitor Views this Venue to Vent and Void his Vitriol?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142213
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.07.2012
06:34AM EDT 
vertical line Yay Avisitor, yo practice sho is a reglar jeez and whine pardy.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142217
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.07.2012
06:44AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "what we truly have to defend against is not the one stabbing us randomly in the street, but the thought of it arising

this thought simply a waste, for one who lives in zen, there is but this one moment, live to the fullest, let compassion overflow from you, imagine no other being

Blah, blah, blah
"
.........
This happened  to me when I was 16 years old. Walking home alone from the subway station to my apartment building. Two guys came up to me with a big kitchen knife.

Random thoughts?? What neighborhood did you grow up in? Were you born into a nice neighborhood with white picket fences??

You can preach all you want but the truth of life is that crap happens. Saying it is an illusion doesn't jive with what goes on in this world. Go back to your nice neighborhood or even back to your monastery.

Zen is a practice of Zazen. Nothing more. There are no dogmas or doctrines. Only your notion of the truth of it. Buddhism is where you will find principles and doctrines and sutras and dharmas. Zen only needs one to practice.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142220
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.07.2012
06:48AM EDT 
vertical line Bleeurgh, what a waste.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142222
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.07.2012
06:51AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Do you mean to say that aVisitor Views this Venue to Vent and Void his Vitriol?
.........

Yay Avisitor, yo practice sho is a reglar jeez and whine pardy."
.........

Do you ever put out any more of yourself than a quip or stupid witticism??
You put out a lot of little snippets. But, I haven't seen anything substantial from you.
You seem to hide behind those sound bites and witty comments.
Is there anything of you that survived your youth??

Come tell us about yourself and let us see you.
Are you a real person or have you lost that part of yourself??
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142223
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.07.2012
06:53AM EDT 
vertical line You don't see.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142224
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.07.2012
07:52AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "You don't see. "
.........

Nor do I have ears to hear.

Come sit with me a while so I can feel the bumps on your head ... hahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142233
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.07.2012
07:56AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Bleeurgh, what a waste."
.........
this thought simply a waste, for one who lives in zen, there is but this one moment, live to the fullest, let compassion overflow from you, imagine no other being

Blah, blah, blah

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142235
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.07.2012
07:59AM EDT 
vertical line Whine, whine, whine
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142237
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.07.2012
12:07PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "what we truly have to defend against is not the one stabbing us randomly in the street, but the thought of it arising

this thought simply a waste, for one who lives in zen, there is but this one moment, live to the fullest, let compassion overflow from you, imagine no other being

Blah, blah, blah
"
.........
This happened  to me when I was 16 years old. Walking home alone from the subway station to my apartment building. Two guys came up to me with a big kitchen knife.

Random thoughts?? What neighborhood did you grow up in? Were you born into a nice neighborhood with white picket fences??

You can preach all you want but the truth of life is that crap happens. Saying it is an illusion doesn't jive with what goes on in this world. Go back to your nice neighborhood or even back to your monastery.

Zen is a practice of Zazen. Nothing more. There are no dogmas or doctrines. Only your notion of the truth of it. Buddhism is where you will find principles and doctrines and sutras and dharmas. Zen only needs one to practice.
"
.........

Reducing Zen to the practice of zazen is like reducing life to breathing. Sure, breathing is very important. But eating and crapping also come with the territory, or there won't be a body to breathe after a while.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142245
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.07.2012
12:14PM EDT 
vertical line ^More whine.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142248
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.07.2012
12:37PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "^More whine."
.........

No. Just pointing out what happens when you don't eat or crap. It's not good or bad, it just is. If you want to make whine, go ahead and make whine.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142263
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.07.2012
01:56PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "what we truly have to defend against is not the one stabbing us randomly in the street, but the thought of it arising

this thought simply a waste, for one who lives in zen, there is but this one moment, live to the fullest, let compassion overflow from you, imagine no other being

Blah, blah, blah
"
.........
This happened  to me when I was 16 years old. Walking home alone from the subway station to my apartment building. Two guys came up to me with a big kitchen knife.

Random thoughts?? What neighborhood did you grow up in? Were you born into a nice neighborhood with white picket fences??

You can preach all you want but the truth of life is that crap happens. Saying it is an illusion doesn't jive with what goes on in this world. Go back to your nice neighborhood or even back to your monastery.

Zen is a practice of Zazen. Nothing more. There are no dogmas or doctrines. Only your notion of the truth of it. Buddhism is where you will find principles and doctrines and sutras and dharmas. Zen only needs one to practice.
"
.........

Reducing Zen to the practice of zazen is like reducing life to breathing. Sure, breathing is very important. But eating and crapping also come with the territory, or there won't be a body to breathe after a while.
"
.........
Everything that Zen is  ... comes from the practice of Zazen. Zen is nothing more than the practice of Zazen.
Everything else that Zen is  .. comes from the people who practice Zazen. Zen is nothing more.
There are no doctrines nor are there any dogmas. Nothing to put rules or restrictions on Zen. Only the people who practice Zazen and what erupts forth from such practice.

Life is breathe. And from breathe there is life. With life comes eating and crapping and words and sight and all the other stuff. But, first, life is breathe. Don't confuse the first with the rest.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142278
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.07.2012
01:58PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Whine, whine, whine"
.........
Come sit with me a while so I can feel the bumps on your head ... hahaha

And maybe I'll add a few ... hahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142280
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.07.2012
01:59PM EDT 
vertical line Peek-A-Boo - LQQkit dat - your crap overflow your slippery path. 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142281
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.07.2012
02:58PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "what we truly have to defend against is not the one stabbing us randomly in the street, but the thought of it arising

this thought simply a waste, for one who lives in zen, there is but this one moment, live to the fullest, let compassion overflow from you, imagine no other being

Blah, blah, blah
"
.........
This happened  to me when I was 16 years old. Walking home alone from the subway station to my apartment building. Two guys came up to me with a big kitchen knife.

Random thoughts?? What neighborhood did you grow up in? Were you born into a nice neighborhood with white picket fences??

You can preach all you want but the truth of life is that crap happens. Saying it is an illusion doesn't jive with what goes on in this world. Go back to your nice neighborhood or even back to your monastery.

Zen is a practice of Zazen. Nothing more. There are no dogmas or doctrines. Only your notion of the truth of it. Buddhism is where you will find principles and doctrines and sutras and dharmas. Zen only needs one to practice.
"
.........

Reducing Zen to the practice of zazen is like reducing life to breathing. Sure, breathing is very important. But eating and crapping also come with the territory, or there won't be a body to breathe after a while.
"
.........
Everything that Zen is  ... comes from the practice of Zazen. Zen is nothing more than the practice of Zazen.
Everything else that Zen is  .. comes from the people who practice Zazen. Zen is nothing more.
There are no doctrines nor are there any dogmas. Nothing to put rules or restrictions on Zen. Only the people who practice Zazen and what erupts forth from such practice.

Life is breathe. And from breathe there is life. With life comes eating and crapping and words and sight and all the other stuff. But, first, life is breathe. Don't confuse the first with the rest.
"
.........

You seem to have confused the first with the rest. You have some ideas about life and Zen. Someday, maybe you won't have any more ideas and you'll understand life and Zen. Keep practicing! You're doing a great job! :-)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142285
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.07.2012
03:24PM EDT 
vertical line By the way, I don't understand life and Zen. But I do know eating and not eating; crapping and not crapping; breathing and not breathing; sitting zazen and not sitting zazen. So I eat, and I crap, and I breathe, and I sit zazen, whenever it's necessary to do so. Just keep practicing! We're doing a Great Job!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142286
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.07.2012
03:39PM EDT 
vertical line I have nothing to do with your Great Job.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142288
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from simple
Sep.07.2012
03:41PM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line have a touch of genious
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142289
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from genericzen
Sep.07.2012
04:41PM EDT 
Email genericzen
vertical line sounds like irish witchcraft, still the best knife is no knife
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142297
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from sit_teh
Sep.07.2012
04:59PM EDT 
Email sit_teh
vertical line Em-
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142301
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from sit_teh
Sep.07.2012
05:05PM EDT 
Email sit_teh
vertical line No.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142302
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from sit_teh
Sep.07.2012
05:07PM EDT 
Email sit_teh
vertical line ! Lightbulb
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142303
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from sit_teh
Sep.07.2012
05:15PM EDT 
Email sit_teh
vertical line ! Phonecall
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142304
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from simple
Sep.07.2012
05:20PM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line I have a ticket
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142306
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.07.2012
05:36PM EDT 
vertical line Just [then] had a phone call from my daughter, she bought a train ticket and will arrive tomorrow.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142308
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.07.2012
09:08PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "By the way, I don't understand life and Zen. But I do know eating and not eating; crapping and not crapping; breathing and not breathing; sitting zazen and not sitting zazen. So I eat, and I crap, and I breathe, and I sit zazen, whenever it's necessary to do so. Just keep practicing! We're doing a Great Job! "
.........
Wait a minute, ... eating and not eating is not the same as sitting Zazen and not sitting Zazen.
To eat is to process food and not eating is to not process food.
However, sitting Zazen is sitting meditation and not sitting Zazen is moving meditation.
Zazen encompasses the other times while not sitting.

You eat, crap, (almost forgot the comma) and breathe whenever necessary
But, Zazen is not necessary for life. You don't need Zazen to live.
Zazen can be there with you all the time. You don't need to turn it off.

You fool yourself into thinking you're better off ... you are still lacking the true insight into your own nature.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142310
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.07.2012
10:04PM EDT 
vertical line Oh you fool. Yourself. You are threatened by the fire that is not quenchethed.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142313
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.07.2012
11:58PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "By the way, I don't understand life and Zen. But I do know eating and not eating; crapping and not crapping; breathing and not breathing; sitting zazen and not sitting zazen. So I eat, and I crap, and I breathe, and I sit zazen, whenever it's necessary to do so. Just keep practicing! We're doing a Great Job! "
.........
Wait a minute, ... eating and not eating is not the same as sitting Zazen and not sitting Zazen.
To eat is to process food and not eating is to not process food.
However, sitting Zazen is sitting meditation and not sitting Zazen is moving meditation.
Zazen encompasses the other times while not sitting.

You eat, crap, (almost forgot the comma) and breathe whenever necessary
But, Zazen is not necessary for life. You don't need Zazen to live.
Zazen can be there with you all the time. You don't need to turn it off.

You fool yourself into thinking you're better off ... you are still lacking the true insight into your own nature.
"
.........

Just keep explaining until you get tired of explaining. Then maybe you won't care so much about what is or isn't zazen.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142315
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.08.2012
05:57AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "what we truly have to defend against is not the one stabbing us randomly in the street, but the thought of it arising

this thought simply a waste, for one who lives in zen, there is but this one moment, live to the fullest, let compassion overflow from you, imagine no other being

Blah, blah, blah
"
.........
This happened  to me when I was 16 years old. Walking home alone from the subway station to my apartment building. Two guys came up to me with a big kitchen knife.

Random thoughts?? What neighborhood did you grow up in? Were you born into a nice neighborhood with white picket fences??

You can preach all you want but the truth of life is that crap happens. Saying it is an illusion doesn't jive with what goes on in this world. Go back to your nice neighborhood or even back to your monastery.

Zen is a practice of Zazen. Nothing more. There are no dogmas or doctrines. Only your notion of the truth of it. Buddhism is where you will find principles and doctrines and sutras and dharmas. Zen only needs one to practice.
"
.........

Reducing Zen to the practice of zazen is like reducing life to breathing. Sure, breathing is very important. But eating and crapping also come with the territory, or there won't be a body to breathe after a while.
"
.........
Everything that Zen is  ... comes from the practice of Zazen. Zen is nothing more than the practice of Zazen.
Everything else that Zen is  .. comes from the people who practice Zazen. Zen is nothing more.
There are no doctrines nor are there any dogmas. Nothing to put rules or restrictions on Zen. Only the people who practice Zazen and what erupts forth from such practice.

Life is breathe. And from breathe there is life. With life comes eating and crapping and words and sight and all the other stuff. But, first, life is breathe. Don't confuse the first with the rest.
"
.........

I cant say what Zen is or isnt.  I would say there is only *nothingness*, as Einstein said  *Nothing truly exists except the energy that everything is made of.*

What is that which can be anything ?  Nothing in particular, *nothingness*.  Is that the Truth ?  No.  It is what I believe to be true, but I do not believe there is a Truth.  It is all illusion, except that which you believe in, which is delusion.  So pick your delusions carefully.

Zazen is not Zen.  It is a method of shutting down, which may allow an understanding of *dependent arising* to come to you.  In and of itself, Zazen is nothing but a relaxation technique.  As such it is very valuable in coping with daily life.  It gives you a chance to take a break, rest, relax, and return with renewed vigor.

If you think you have mastered Zazen, and therefore have mastered Zen, then thats where you are on your path. You cant be wrong until you arrive at a conclusion, and then there is no escaping it.

Its not about finding the Truth, Id say its more about not needing to.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142319
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.08.2012
09:49AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line I tire of explaining the thoughts of others while I still have my own confusing me.
Lets not talk of what Zen is or is not ... there seems to be no consensus here.

I will say that the barrage of quips and sound bites have proven nothing in learning more about Zen. When people talk from their points of view and don't show where they stand, the effectiveness of the conversation is lost in the gentle winds. Yes, it is all hot air ... haha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142326
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.08.2012
10:00AM EDT 
vertical line Esoteric says he's doing a Great Job
Avisitor keeps doing a Big Jobby.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142329
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.08.2012
10:50AM EDT 
vertical line If you want to know soccer, you should learn as much about it as you can first, so you have a clear understanding of what to do. Learn the rules, watch some games, look at a real soccer field, hold a soccer ball, and start practicing how to move that ball around with your feet and body. If you want even more understanding, you might study the history of soccer, and follow the games of the current international soccer teams. Then, when you're ready to really know soccer, go find some people who play and go play it with them.

Likewise, if you want to know Zen, then you should learn as much about it as you can first, so you have a clear understanding of what to do. Learn the rules of different schools of Zen, watch some Zen Buddhist practices, look at a real zendo, experience directly some of the things involved in Zen practice, and start practicing Zen the way some traditions practice Zen. If you want even more understanding, you might study the history of Zen, and follow the dharma teachings of some of the Zen teachers out there. Then, when you're ready to really know Zen, go find some people who practice and go practice with them.

Sitting around and speculating what Zen practice is, or what Zen is, or what it means to sit zazen, or what you think Zen should be....this is as useless as sitting around speculating what soccer is, or what it feels like to play soccer when you've never actually gone out to play it with other people, or what it means to play it, or what soccer should be.

Don't think. Just DO IT.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142336
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.08.2012
10:56AM EDT 
vertical line You DO IT.
I AM IT.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142337
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from simple
Sep.08.2012
10:56AM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line Any arena for that?(my simple mind)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142338
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.08.2012
11:14AM EDT 
vertical line Hmm. I will correct my bad analogy. You can't play "soccer" without going out and playing soccer with other people who agree to play soccer with you. But you can practice Zen without other people who agree to practice Zen with you. But practicing Zen by yourself is different than practicing in an organized Zen sangha.

I don't practice Zen with an organized sangha, although I have done so a couple of times, and probably will again when my schedule allows.

I practice zazen, and other things associated with Zen, by myself. But I also interact with other people every day, in many different ways. And that is all Zen practice as well, even when those other people aren't practicing "Zen". When you really sit zazen, everything sits zazen. When you really practice Zen, everything is Zen practice. But actually, it's just called "living."

If you want to know how to live in the context of "Zen", then read, listen, and interact with as much that is "Zen" as you can. Some good books to read are The Compass of Zen by Master Seung Sahn, The Three Pillars of Zen by Phillip Kapleau, Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind by Shunryu Suzuki, and (if you're feeling up to it) a book of koans like The Blue Cliff Record. Listen to (or read) some dharma talks by Zen masters and teachers. There are a great many of them online. Visit a Zen center or zendo, even if you don't plan on practicing there. If you have any difficulties with any aspect of your practice, talk to someone about it. If no one here on this site gives you a real or meaningful answer...LOOK SOMEWHERE ELSE. There are a lot of people in this world. Someone will give you the answer you need.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142340
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.08.2012
11:15AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "You DO IT.
I AM IT.
"
.........

Meaningless.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142341
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.08.2012
11:18AM EDT 
vertical line Yes you are.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142342
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.08.2012
11:20AM EDT 
vertical line .THAT.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142343
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.08.2012
11:21AM EDT 
vertical line While you're thinking about it, go and look somewhere else.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142344
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.08.2012
11:26AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "While you're thinking about it, go and look somewhere else. "
.........

Would you like some candy, little troll?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142345
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.08.2012
11:28AM EDT 
vertical line You thought so.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142346
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.08.2012
11:30AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "You thought so."
.........

Not really. Chat with you later :-)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142347
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.08.2012
11:32AM EDT 
vertical line Joe Chip's Last Word...in five...four...three...two...
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142348
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from sit_teh
Sep.08.2012
11:36AM EDT 
Email sit_teh
vertical line Who am I? arose in consciousness to free the mind from all conditioning. With it came, not apart but together, practice-realization.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142350
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.08.2012
11:36AM EDT 
vertical line If you need anything, I'll be right outside.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142349
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.08.2012
11:38AM EDT 
vertical line Who aH
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142351
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from simple
Sep.08.2012
11:44AM EDT 
Email simple
vertical line

Today Tomorrow Toyota - This is Toyota's slogan.

Mine is Today Tomorrow After   :)

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142352
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.08.2012
03:40PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "You DO IT.
I AM IT.
"
.........
This isn't a child's game. You can't be it!!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142358
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.08.2012
03:41PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Hmm. I will correct my bad analogy. You can't play "soccer" without going out and playing soccer with other people who agree to play soccer with you. But you can practice Zen without other people who agree to practice Zen with you. But practicing Zen by yourself is different than practicing in an organized Zen sangha.

I don't practice Zen with an organized sangha, although I have done so a couple of times, and probably will again when my schedule allows.

I practice zazen, and other things associated with Zen, by myself. But I also interact with other people every day, in many different ways. And that is all Zen practice as well, even when those other people aren't practicing "Zen". When you really sit zazen, everything sits zazen. When you really practice Zen, everything is Zen practice. But actually, it's just called "living."

If you want to know how to live in the context of "Zen", then read, listen, and interact with as much that is "Zen" as you can. Some good books to read are The Compass of Zen by Master Seung Sahn, The Three Pillars of Zen by Phillip Kapleau, Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind by Shunryu Suzuki, and (if you're feeling up to it) a book of koans like The Blue Cliff Record. Listen to (or read) some dharma talks by Zen masters and teachers. There are a great many of them online. Visit a Zen center or zendo, even if you don't plan on practicing there. If you have any difficulties with any aspect of your practice, talk to someone about it. If no one here on this site gives you a real or meaningful answer...LOOK SOMEWHERE ELSE. There are a lot of people in this world. Someone will give you the answer you need.
"
.........

I quote you  ... "Don't think. Just DO IT."

Hahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142359
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.08.2012
04:05PM EDT 
vertical line Before your quote was, I AM.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142364
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.09.2012
04:50AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Quote: "You DO IT.
I AM IT.
"
.........

Meaningless.
"
.........

In Zen it is said, *The way to do is to be*.

For me, looking back, now I can see that what was missing for me was being loved.  Now I am.

For you, from what you have said, you have had a drive to be right.  Now you are.

Maybe the Moody Blues were right when they sang, *In the end, you will be what you want to be.*

I think that in order to be right, I must also let others be what they want to be.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142375
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.09.2012
09:59AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Hmm. I will correct my bad analogy. You can't play "soccer" without going out and playing soccer with other people who agree to play soccer with you. But you can practice Zen without other people who agree to practice Zen with you. But practicing Zen by yourself is different than practicing in an organized Zen sangha.

I don't practice Zen with an organized sangha, although I have done so a couple of times, and probably will again when my schedule allows.

I practice zazen, and other things associated with Zen, by myself. But I also interact with other people every day, in many different ways. And that is all Zen practice as well, even when those other people aren't practicing "Zen". When you really sit zazen, everything sits zazen. When you really practice Zen, everything is Zen practice. But actually, it's just called "living."

If you want to know how to live in the context of "Zen", then read, listen, and interact with as much that is "Zen" as you can. Some good books to read are The Compass of Zen by Master Seung Sahn, The Three Pillars of Zen by Phillip Kapleau, Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind by Shunryu Suzuki, and (if you're feeling up to it) a book of koans like The Blue Cliff Record. Listen to (or read) some dharma talks by Zen masters and teachers. There are a great many of them online. Visit a Zen center or zendo, even if you don't plan on practicing there. If you have any difficulties with any aspect of your practice, talk to someone about it. If no one here on this site gives you a real or meaningful answer...LOOK SOMEWHERE ELSE. There are a lot of people in this world. Someone will give you the answer you need.
"
.........

I quote you  ... "Don't think. Just DO IT."

Hahaha
"
.........

I am. :-)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142393
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.09.2012
10:01AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Quote: "You DO IT.
I AM IT.
"
.........

Meaningless.
"
.........

In Zen it is said, *The way to do is to be*.

For me, looking back, now I can see that what was missing for me was being loved.  Now I am.

For you, from what you have said, you have had a drive to be right.  Now you are.

Maybe the Moody Blues were right when they sang, *In the end, you will be what you want to be.*

I think that in order to be right, I must also let others be what they want to be.

"
.........

Good man. Being loved, and being correct. Are they different, or the same? :-)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142394
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.10.2012
08:47AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Quote: "You DO IT.
I AM IT.
"
.........

Meaningless.
"
.........

In Zen it is said, *The way to do is to be*.

For me, looking back, now I can see that what was missing for me was being loved.  Now I am.

For you, from what you have said, you have had a drive to be right.  Now you are.

Maybe the Moody Blues were right when they sang, *In the end, you will be what you want to be.*

I think that in order to be right, I must also let others be what they want to be.

"
.........

Good man. Being loved, and being correct. Are they different, or the same? :-)
"
.........
Neither and both ... in a linear world it can't be.
But, in a human paradox ridden world ... it is just another bumble bee taking flight.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142428
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.10.2012
09:26AM EDT 
vertical line Open a window.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142431
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.10.2012
09:56AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Open a window."
.........

Can you smell it yet??? .... hahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142434
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.10.2012
10:08AM EDT 
vertical line Save the bee.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142441
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Sep.10.2012
10:28AM EDT 
vertical line wasp, under the garbage lid, twas known to be there, so let it stay as only, i to go away
understood me as it in god good
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142445
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.10.2012
12:31PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Through regular aviation technology, the bumble bee can not take flight.
Engineers couldn't understand why?? Cause a bee does fly.
Turns out the understanding of how a bumble bee flies is in the viscosity of the air and the weight of the bee.
Its flight is closer to a fish swimming in water. But, not exactly ... hahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142456
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Sep.10.2012
01:58PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line

Gentle fly

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142460
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.11.2012
04:45AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Quote: "You DO IT.
I AM IT.
"
.........

Meaningless.
"
.........

In Zen it is said, *The way to do is to be*.

For me, looking back, now I can see that what was missing for me was being loved.  Now I am.

For you, from what you have said, you have had a drive to be right.  Now you are.

Maybe the Moody Blues were right when they sang, *In the end, you will be what you want to be.*

I think that in order to be right, I must also let others be what they want to be.

"
.........

Good man. Being loved, and being correct. Are they different, or the same? :-)
"
.........
Neither and both ... in a linear world it can't be.
But, in a human paradox ridden world ... it is just another bumble bee taking flight.
"
.........

"
.........

Good man. Being loved, and being correct. Are they different, or the same? :-)
"
.........
Neither and both ... in a linear world it can't be.
But, in a human paradox ridden world ... it is just another bumble bee taking flight.
"
.........

In meditation, with the Spirit, I have found *being loved* beyond my comprehension.

In Zazen, you have found a way of being *correct* that is right for you.

Real or illusion ?  Who cares ?  Like we are going to live long enough to worry about that.

Meditation has worked again.  We have found what we need within ourselves.  Lets hope others here can do the same.  Some already have, in their own way.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142478
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.11.2012
06:00AM EDT 
vertical line Love is meaningless.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142490
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Sep.11.2012
08:51AM EDT 
vertical line Honor takes less and gives more, on your, list.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142500
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.11.2012
09:05AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Love is meaningless."
.........

He said, confidently, "Money doesnt mean anything to me."

She said, "Of course not, as long as you have it."

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142505
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Sep.11.2012
09:11AM EDT 
vertical line reaching out
for the sun
through the clouds
of unknowing
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142507
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Sep.11.2012
11:01AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line I am right,  you are right, he is right.......but they are not right!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142515
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.11.2012
11:04AM EDT 
vertical line Red is the blues I know.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142517
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Sep.11.2012
11:09AM EDT 
vertical line we are one, are to
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142519
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.11.2012
04:22PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "In meditation, with the Spirit, I have found *being loved* beyond my comprehension.

In Zazen, you have found a way of being *correct* that is right for you.

Real or illusion ?  Who cares ?  Like we are going to live long enough to worry about that.

Meditation has worked again.  We have found what we need within ourselves.  Lets hope others here can do the same.  Some already have, in their own way.

"
.........
Yes, in the long run, what is there that survives us here? Our children? Our words?
Everything changes.

Meditation does work ... when applied with great honest effort. I'm hoping others here will do the same .... hahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142533
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Riverstone
Sep.12.2012
09:00PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Yes, the leaning neither for nor against is part and parcel of practice.

As for the horse before the carriage, I believe that is just one way, awareness before insight, insight before awareness, gradual, immediate, within a single life time, over several lifetimes. Each form of Buddhism is different. If you start arguing all of that you are getting caught up in details and lean toward or against in a dualistic fashion. A rather slippery path.
"
.........
I understand to argue one's opinion is giving into one's emotions .. pride, and what have you
But, how does not arguing .. not give into the dualistic fashion of leaning toward or against??
The path is already slippery .. with or without the leaning
"
.........

You can argue. You can take a position. As long as you own that position as your own at that moment, in that experience, it is not wrong. As long as you are not shoving it down someone else's throat. As a matter of fact if you can really grasp what it is you are grasping, it gives you leverage to let it go, as you listen to another perspective. Technically you are free to do anything so long as you are okay with the consequence. The consequence for telling someone they are wrong is you are somewhat stuck in your perspective. Absolute truth, a 'ground of being', those are the tell tale, are you standing on an absolute truth or a ground of being, or are you standing on what you perceive to be your experience at this time.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142578
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.12.2012
11:12PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Yes, the leaning neither for nor against is part and parcel of practice.

As for the horse before the carriage, I believe that is just one way, awareness before insight, insight before awareness, gradual, immediate, within a single life time, over several lifetimes. Each form of Buddhism is different. If you start arguing all of that you are getting caught up in details and lean toward or against in a dualistic fashion. A rather slippery path.
"
.........
I understand to argue one's opinion is giving into one's emotions .. pride, and what have you
But, how does not arguing .. not give into the dualistic fashion of leaning toward or against??
The path is already slippery .. with or without the leaning
"
.........

You can argue. You can take a position. As long as you own that position as your own at that moment, in that experience, it is not wrong. As long as you are not shoving it down someone else's throat. As a matter of fact if you can really grasp what it is you are grasping, it gives you leverage to let it go, as you listen to another perspective. Technically you are free to do anything so long as you are okay with the consequence. The consequence for telling someone they are wrong is you are somewhat stuck in your perspective. Absolute truth, a 'ground of being', those are the tell tale, are you standing on an absolute truth or a ground of being, or are you standing on what you perceive to be your experience at this time.
"
.........

If you take a position, you have no choice but to own it. So just let it go before you take it. Then there's no problem, because there's no position to cause a problem.

Technically, you are free to do anything whether or not you are okay with the consequences. And if there are consequences, then you are not free at all.

Some people can tell you you're wrong and not be stuck in their perspective, because they have no perspective to be stuck in. Because they are not standing on anything, don't own anything, and don't grasp anything. Oh, where is the leverage?!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142585
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.13.2012
05:22AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Yes, the leaning neither for nor against is part and parcel of practice.

As for the horse before the carriage, I believe that is just one way, awareness before insight, insight before awareness, gradual, immediate, within a single life time, over several lifetimes. Each form of Buddhism is different. If you start arguing all of that you are getting caught up in details and lean toward or against in a dualistic fashion. A rather slippery path.
"
.........
I understand to argue one's opinion is giving into one's emotions .. pride, and what have you
But, how does not arguing .. not give into the dualistic fashion of leaning toward or against??
The path is already slippery .. with or without the leaning
"
.........

You can argue. You can take a position. As long as you own that position as your own at that moment, in that experience, it is not wrong. As long as you are not shoving it down someone else's throat. As a matter of fact if you can really grasp what it is you are grasping, it gives you leverage to let it go, as you listen to another perspective. Technically you are free to do anything so long as you are okay with the consequence. The consequence for telling someone they are wrong is you are somewhat stuck in your perspective. Absolute truth, a 'ground of being', those are the tell tale, are you standing on an absolute truth or a ground of being, or are you standing on what you perceive to be your experience at this time.
"
.........

If you take a position, you have no choice but to own it. So just let it go before you take it. Then there's no problem, because there's no position to cause a problem.

Technically, you are free to do anything whether or not you are okay with the consequences. And if there are consequences, then you are not free at all.

Some people can tell you you're wrong and not be stuck in their perspective, because they have no perspective to be stuck in. Because they are not standing on anything, don't own anything, and don't grasp anything. Oh, where is the leverage?!
"
.........

I first came to this forum after becoming awakened and looking for other awakened people.

A guy here told me that satori for him was like remembering a sandwich he ate 25 years ago.  I was aghast that anyone could think of satori as anything short of the most signal experience ever, and told he must have had kensho.  Later he shared his satori experience and it was most profound.  I had to apologize.

I was wrong, grounded in my perspective at that time.  There is no *end all, be all*, there is no Truth.  Eventually I came to realize that what I experienced in satori, or nirvana, is true for me, at least, but is not The Truth in general.  I think now that the Truth is so elusive because there isnt one universal Truth that applies to everyone.

I think now that it is a journey of Self discovery, between you and You.  Finding yourself, within Your Self.  Its an inside job.

He doesnt post here much anymore.  Seems he gets put down every time he says something, because it doesnt fit with the preconceived notions of others.  I recall on one occasion he coined the phrase, *the moment before time*, and people jumped all over him.  Personally I loved it, and still use it sometimes too.

I will be glad to help anyone in their quest, as long as it is their quest.  I have my own to worry about.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142602
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.13.2012
07:39AM EDT 
vertical line Jesus. What has meditation ever done to you?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142610
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from sit_teh
Sep.14.2012
03:32PM EDT 
Email sit_teh
vertical line Just The Immediate.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142665
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Sep.14.2012
08:37PM EDT 
vertical line Jester stands out in a courtroom of fools, as being king.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142671
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Riverstone
Sep.15.2012
03:40PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Yes, the leaning neither for nor against is part and parcel of practice.

As for the horse before the carriage, I believe that is just one way, awareness before insight, insight before awareness, gradual, immediate, within a single life time, over several lifetimes. Each form of Buddhism is different. If you start arguing all of that you are getting caught up in details and lean toward or against in a dualistic fashion. A rather slippery path.
"
.........
I understand to argue one's opinion is giving into one's emotions .. pride, and what have you
But, how does not arguing .. not give into the dualistic fashion of leaning toward or against??
The path is already slippery .. with or without the leaning
"
.........

You can argue. You can take a position. As long as you own that position as your own at that moment, in that experience, it is not wrong. As long as you are not shoving it down someone else's throat. As a matter of fact if you can really grasp what it is you are grasping, it gives you leverage to let it go, as you listen to another perspective. Technically you are free to do anything so long as you are okay with the consequence. The consequence for telling someone they are wrong is you are somewhat stuck in your perspective. Absolute truth, a 'ground of being', those are the tell tale, are you standing on an absolute truth or a ground of being, or are you standing on what you perceive to be your experience at this time.
"
.........

If you take a position, you have no choice but to own it. So just let it go before you take it. Then there's no problem, because there's no position to cause a problem.

Technically, you are free to do anything whether or not you are okay with the consequences. And if there are consequences, then you are not free at all.

Some people can tell you you're wrong and not be stuck in their perspective, because they have no perspective to be stuck in. Because they are not standing on anything, don't own anything, and don't grasp anything. Oh, where is the leverage?!
"
.........


I first came to this forum after becoming awakened and looking for other awakened people.


A guy here told me that satori for him was like remembering a sandwich he ate 25 years ago.  I was aghast that anyone could think of satori as anything short of the most signal experience ever, and told he must have had kensho.  Later he shared his satori experience and it was most profound.  I had to apologize.


I was wrong, grounded in my perspective at that time.  There is no *end all, be all*, there is no Truth.  Eventually I came to realize that what I experienced in satori, or nirvana, is true for me, at least, but is not The Truth in general.  I think now that the Truth is so elusive because there isnt one universal Truth that applies to everyone.


I think now that it is a journey of Self discovery, between you and You.  Finding yourself, within Your Self.  Its an inside job.


He doesnt post here much anymore.  Seems he gets put down every time he says something, because it doesnt fit with the preconceived notions of others.  I recall on one occasion he coined the phrase, *the moment before time*, and people jumped all over him.  Personally I loved it, and still use it sometimes too.


I will be glad to help anyone in their quest, as long as it is their quest.  I have my own to worry about.

"
.........

If we stood in a circle each of us with a camera, we faced the center of the circle and photographed our perspective. Every single picture would be different, some will contain elements of others, and some will contain elements unique to that perspective. Yet each is a valid representation of that room, at that time, from which ever perspective it was taken. Every argument begins when someone claims, their photograph is the only true photograph, all others are invalid.

Inherently the photograph does not record the full story no matter how accurate it is as a reproduction, it is a reproduction. So that if you have this experience, it is futile to share it because all that remains are your words, which are a reproduction.

Eventually, you begin to stop talking about it, hopefully. It can become another barrier, the memory of this 'experience'. Until I can consciously will that perspective, it will always be a memory. And if you can consciously will it, you know, not to say anything more on the subject. The insight is for you, it feeds your life, it fulfills you, and with these effects it naturally serves others. Not because you expound what is true,but because it is manifest in everything you do or do not do, everything you say, or do not say. The "experience" for a moment slipped over into my life and I lived it for some time. It was not a full realization, but I was left with a profound respect for the perspective of others, and to not interfere with their path except in the most passive ways. (I slip a lot.)

Truthfully I can not will, nor stabalise that experience in the way I could before. So what I am saying now, is based on memory, it is flawed. I am learning to stop talking about it, but, it is not easy. My linear mind desires to know what the non-linear mind experiences. If you have had the non-linear experience, the linear mind does know, it simply can not accurately capture it for someone else. Even Buddha chose not to directly talk about it, he started with the way the linear mind speaks, he used logic, in the form of the four Noble Truths. I have heard the Lavatmansaka Sutra describes it well, but you can't get it from reading it.

Imagine a cave man with a flashlight. If he does not stop marveling at the light, he will never use it for a practical purpose.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142684
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.15.2012
07:03PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "
If we stood in a circle each of us with a camera, we faced the center of the circle and photographed our perspective. Every single picture would be different, some will contain elements of others, and some will contain elements unique to that perspective. Yet each is a valid representation of that room, at that time, from which ever perspective it was taken. Every argument begins when someone claims, their photograph is the only true photograph, all others are invalid.

Inherently the photograph does not record the full story no matter how accurate it is as a reproduction, it is a reproduction. So that if you have this experience, it is futile to share it because all that remains are your words, which are a reproduction.

"
.............

Different photographs, same camera.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142685
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.15.2012
08:52PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "If we stood in a circle each of us with a camera, we faced the center of the circle and photographed our perspective. Every single picture would be different, some will contain elements of others, and some will contain elements unique to that perspective. Yet each is a valid representation of that room, at that time, from which ever perspective it was taken. Every argument begins when someone claims, their photograph is the only true photograph, all others are invalid.

Inherently the photograph does not record the full story no matter how accurate it is as a reproduction, it is a reproduction. So that if you have this experience, it is futile to share it because all that remains are your words, which are a reproduction.

Eventually, you begin to stop talking about it, hopefully. It can become another barrier, the memory of this 'experience'. Until I can consciously will that perspective, it will always be a memory. And if you can consciously will it, you know, not to say anything more on the subject. The insight is for you, it feeds your life, it fulfills you, and with these effects it naturally serves others. Not because you expound what is true,but because it is manifest in everything you do or do not do, everything you say, or do not say. The "experience" for a moment slipped over into my life and I lived it for some time. It was not a full realization, but I was left with a profound respect for the perspective of others, and to not interfere with their path except in the most passive ways. (I slip a lot.)

Truthfully I can not will, nor stabalise that experience in the way I could before. So what I am saying now, is based on memory, it is flawed. I am learning to stop talking about it, but, it is not easy. My linear mind desires to know what the non-linear mind experiences. If you have had the non-linear experience, the linear mind does know, it simply can not accurately capture it for someone else. Even Buddha chose not to directly talk about it, he started with the way the linear mind speaks, he used logic, in the form of the four Noble Truths. I have heard the Lavatmansaka Sutra describes it well, but you can't get it from reading it.

Imagine a cave man with a flashlight. If he does not stop marveling at the light, he will never use it for a practical purpose.
"
.........
There is only one fault in that argument.
There are some out there who are just plain wrong in their views.
In others word, they have a faulty camera or the damn thing is pointing at themselves instead of the room.

Otherwise, it sounds perfectly logical. (no insult intended).
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142688
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Riverstone
Sep.15.2012
10:00PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "If we stood in a circle each of us with a camera, we faced the center of the circle and photographed our perspective. Every single picture would be different, some will contain elements of others, and some will contain elements unique to that perspective. Yet each is a valid representation of that room, at that time, from which ever perspective it was taken. Every argument begins when someone claims, their photograph is the only true photograph, all others are invalid.

Inherently the photograph does not record the full story no matter how accurate it is as a reproduction, it is a reproduction. So that if you have this experience, it is futile to share it because all that remains are your words, which are a reproduction.

Eventually, you begin to stop talking about it, hopefully. It can become another barrier, the memory of this 'experience'. Until I can consciously will that perspective, it will always be a memory. And if you can consciously will it, you know, not to say anything more on the subject. The insight is for you, it feeds your life, it fulfills you, and with these effects it naturally serves others. Not because you expound what is true,but because it is manifest in everything you do or do not do, everything you say, or do not say. The "experience" for a moment slipped over into my life and I lived it for some time. It was not a full realization, but I was left with a profound respect for the perspective of others, and to not interfere with their path except in the most passive ways. (I slip a lot.)

Truthfully I can not will, nor stabalise that experience in the way I could before. So what I am saying now, is based on memory, it is flawed. I am learning to stop talking about it, but, it is not easy. My linear mind desires to know what the non-linear mind experiences. If you have had the non-linear experience, the linear mind does know, it simply can not accurately capture it for someone else. Even Buddha chose not to directly talk about it, he started with the way the linear mind speaks, he used logic, in the form of the four Noble Truths. I have heard the Lavatmansaka Sutra describes it well, but you can't get it from reading it.

Imagine a cave man with a flashlight. If he does not stop marveling at the light, he will never use it for a practical purpose.
"
.........
There is only one fault in that argument.
There are some out there who are just plain wrong in their views.
In others word, they have a faulty camera or the damn thing is pointing at themselves instead of the room.

Otherwise, it sounds perfectly logical. (no insult intended).
"
............

not at all....I get a little too wordy ...oh well ;-)


You see, you laid your image next to mine and it amplified, expanded the view. If someone had distorted image of the same room, a finger in front of the lens, a lens flare, color distortion. It could be aligned with the surrounding images to bring it into clarity. Yet when the holder of the distorted image demands it is the only real image, there could be trouble. And, yet again, some lenses reveal truths that other lenses do not. Lenses which can see infrared, ultraviolet, heat, air patterns. Many people can consciously alter their lens. When you go to a movie usually you are required to suspend your disbelief in order to enter the world of the movie. I saw an uncommon image, what helped was how beneficial or not was its effect on my When I look deeply into my distorted images, they either amplify understanding in some way or they lead astray.

I am perfectly willing to be wrong.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142691
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.16.2012
05:48AM EDT 
vertical line

I dont know of anything greater than to *know thyself*.

I dont know of anything more devastating either.

Walking death.  No wonder so many just die....

Yet, what else is there to do ?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142694
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.16.2012
10:13AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I am perfectly willing to be wrong."
.........
Not saying you are wrong.
Only saying that it was incomplete.

Sorry for my interruptions.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142706
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.16.2012
10:57AM EDT 
vertical line (Remember), you're only as smart as the idiot you plagiarise.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142712
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.16.2012
09:26PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "(Remember), you're only as smart as the idiot you plagiarise. "
.........
Yes, (Remember), you're only as smart as the idiot you plagiarize.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142730
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Sep.16.2012
11:25PM EDT 
vertical line Practice is your daily living. Zazen is only a tool to help help live your practice.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142733
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Riverstone
Sep.17.2012
05:36AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Practice is your daily living. Zazen is only a tool to help help live your practice.

"
.........

yes Leoj... keep it simple...
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142741
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.17.2012
05:57AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Quote: "Practice is your daily living. Zazen is only a tool to help help live your practice.

"
.........

yes Leoj... keep it simple...
"
.........

As Osho said, *Eventually, your whole life becomes a meditation.*

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142742
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.17.2012
08:11AM EDT 
vertical line And as inept.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142749
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.17.2012
08:48AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "And as inept."
.........
Yes, "And as inept."
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142752
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.17.2012
08:53AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Quote: "And as inept."
.........
Yes, "And as inept."
"
.........

I can see how one can live ineptly, although Im sure thats relative.

But how can meditation be done ineptly?

It is what it is, and it aint what it aint,

You get what you get, and you dont what you dont.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142754
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.17.2012
09:00AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "(Remember), you're only as smart as the idiot you plagiarise. "
.........
Yes, (Remember), you're only as smart as the idiot you plagiarize.
"
.........
And as inept.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142756
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.17.2012
10:00AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "(Remember), you're only as smart as the idiot you plagiarise. "
.........
Yes, (Remember), you're only as smart as the idiot you plagiarize.
"
.........
And as inept.
"
.........
Yes, "And as inept."
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142759
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.17.2012
10:06AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I can see how one can live ineptly, although Im sure thats relative.

But how can meditation be done ineptly?

It is what it is, and it aint what it aint,

You get what you get, and you dont what you dont.

"
.........

There was this very topic in another forum. That meditation is done and can not be done wrong. It is what it is. But, I know from efforts that it can be done in such a way as to keep one stuck in a rut. Don't know how else to say it. And only with great honest efforts can one get out of such a rut.

Maybe I'm complicating it more than necessary. It is just that I know the effort is important to the practice. Right effort gives right practice which leads us further along the eightfold path.

Argh, crap, now I'm starting to sound like esoteric. Where is my soup?? Please ....
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142760
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.17.2012
10:50AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "I can see how one can live ineptly, although Im sure thats relative.

But how can meditation be done ineptly?

It is what it is, and it aint what it aint,

You get what you get, and you dont what you dont.

"
.........

There was this very topic in another forum. That meditation is done and can not be done wrong. It is what it is. But, I know from efforts that it can be done in such a way as to keep one stuck in a rut. Don't know how else to say it. And only with great honest efforts can one get out of such a rut.

Maybe I'm complicating it more than necessary. It is just that I know the effort is important to the practice. Right effort gives right practice which leads us further along the eightfold path.

Argh, crap, now I'm starting to sound like esoteric. Where is my soup?? Please ....
"
.........

"
.........

There was this very topic in another forum. That meditation is done and can not be done wrong. It is what it is. But, I know from efforts that it can be done in such a way as to keep one stuck in a rut. Don't know how else to say it. And only with great honest efforts can one get out of such a rut.

Maybe I'm complicating it more than necessary. It is just that I know the effort is important to the practice. Right effort gives right practice which leads us further along the eightfold path.

Argh, crap, now I'm starting to sound like esoteric. Where is my soup?? Please ....
"
.........

Effort seems to be the key word here.

I remember in my early days of TM, I would have a profound experience and then try to have another right away.  But it wouldnt come.  Then when I gave up trying, another profound experience would happen, and I would try again.

It wasnt until I gave up trying altogether that things began to happen regularly in my meditation, which came as a surprise to me because everytime I had a profound experience I thought it was going to be a while before I had another.

Im slow, but I figured out that trying only stops up the drain, so to speak.  Its an ego thing I suppose.  If you want to call the tune, you have to pay the piper. 

Letting go may be another way of saying *humility*.  The greater part of you is within, the subconscious is superior to the conscious.  Until you give in to it, the likelihood is that it will have little use for your effort.

In hypnosis, when questioned, the subconscious often refers to the conscious in the 3rd person, as actors do when talking about a character they have played. 

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142762
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.17.2012
11:48AM EDT 
vertical line Jesus inept. In another forum.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142763
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.18.2012
05:20AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Jesus inept. In another forum."
.........

If what I have *seen* is true, Jesus thought that if he came to Earth and proved to people that God exists, then they would have to live their lives accordingly.  They would have to accept God in their lives, and live for God.

Maybe he overestimated the self-determination of the masses.  He thought they would follow him.  They didnt know what to think, until their leaders told them what to think.  He attracted the attention of the leaders of the church and government, and they felt threatened. 

The leaders of the Church asked the Roman government to kill him, since the trial of the church did not allow for such an outcome.  Pontius Pilate very cleverly, in a brilliant political move, got the people themselves to sentence Jesus to death by giving them a choice between a war hero, Barabas, and one whom many thought to be a charletan, Jesus.  They probably thought that if Jesus was real he didnt need their help, and if not then Barabas was the right choice.  They were more motivated to save Barabas.

I believe in Jesus because of what I have seen of and experienced with him in my meditative travels.  I dont doubt that he is son of Jehovah, King of the Angels.  And I dont doubt that he is coming back to recon with mankind with a Heavenly Hoard of tens of thousands of tens of thousands of  pissed off Angels either.  Killing the messenger was not a good idea.  When the sky went dark as night in mid afternoon, that was not a good omen. 

I dont know when, but Im sure thats going to happen sometime because we talked about it in a vision one time many years ago.  I dont think anyone else should believe my visions, but I do.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142781
horizontal line
 
Back To Topic List   Go to Top of Page

 



SUPPORT ZENGUIDE.COM
If you are planning on purchasing any product from amazon.com, you can help us out by using the search box to the right or by clicking on this link to begin shopping.


Purchase posters, art prints, media (music CD & DVD)

buy this CALLIGRAPHY SCROLL, SERENITY
by George Caso
Puchase this Item
More Art Prints & Media
Zen & Buddhism books
 
 
d
.
i
.
s
.
c
.
u
.
s
.
s
.
i
.
o
.
n
.

.
f
.
o
.
r
.
u
.
m
.
Copyright © 1999 - 2014 zenguide.com - All rights reserved. °