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  Yamaoka Tesshu, as a young student of Zen, visited one
master after another. He called upon Dokuon of Shokoku.

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: QUESTION
vertical line Posted on Sep.12.2012 @ 05:15PM EDT by zenmanstan
are the nonbelievers like that because of choice or what? for me it was the first half of my life i was christian now i am Buddhist. but my mom was johavah's witness and now she is christian so is it just that for half your life you are one way? or do they have  yet to realize..
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Reply from so_teh
Sep.12.2012
06:09PM EDT 
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vertical line Hmm, well this is my case. I was raised in a Catholic/Liberal/Loving family. I don't know exactly what causes religious conversion and whatnot. For me everything was kind of great, a blessed life. I think I recognized that. It wasn't soon after I opened to skeptical curiosity. Who am I? then entered into my consciousness and all conditioning seemed to be freed. Uh oh! Now what do I do?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142573
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Reply from so_teh
Sep.12.2012
06:25PM EDT 
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vertical line I've gained some ground in the last several years through meditation, health care and family life.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142574
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Reply from Riverstone
Sep.12.2012
08:33PM EDT 
vertical line I was watching that movie The Messenger last night. It is the story of Joan of Arc, but portrayed in such a way, that you are uncertain. Is she divinely inspired? Or is she mad! Whatever the case, her passion, her zeal, her absolute faith (within the movie at least) saved an entire nation and elicited fear from the very church that would eventually venerate her as a saint. Last night after watching that movie, I realized, I am missing that zeal, that feverish compulsion to practice at all times. At one time, I had that, and it cracked open an experience, that I do not now have, so smoothly as I once did.

I think we start off in blind faith, we balance later with logic, and then move back toward a balance between the two. Some people go from one blind faith to another, or to the relinquishment of faith entirely for absolute logic. And even beyond this to complete apathy.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142575
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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.12.2012
11:34PM EDT 
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vertical line The only thing that remains certain is that everything change.
People who have a heavy ego and are not at all spiritual can change
Suffering can make one change. Suffering of ones own making.

So the question is .. is it by choice??
We all make choices.
Is it free will or is it destiny?

You have to know more than I do to answer that one.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142589
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Reply from Riverstone
Sep.13.2012
12:34AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "The only thing that remains certain is that everything change.
People who have a heavy ego and are not at all spiritual can change
Suffering can make one change. Suffering of ones own making.

So the question is .. is it by choice??
We all make choices.
Is it free will or is it destiny?

You have to know more than I do to answer that one.
"
.........

Ready for some crazy metaphysical mumbo jumbo that you are more than welcome to throw out as soon as you hear it?

It is both.

Our perception of linear time makes us think we have a choice.  Yet in truth it is all laid out.  At the same time, the universe is composed of multiple dimensions, alternate past and alternate futures and realities difficult to conceive of.  The point is every choice you could ever make or ever could have made, were made in an alternate universe and that universe exist side by side with the one you are in now, and on and on, into infinity.  it all exist as ONE. Begining and End are one.  So if you ask is it destiny the answer is yes, if you ask is it free will the answer is yes.  There really is nothing to lose and nothing to gain, nothing was ever yours to begin with, nothing was ever lost in the end.  Now thats a whole lot of nice hog-wash, in the end, what really matters, is right here, and right now.  There is that story about a monk traped between two tigers, he is momentarily safe on a vine he clings to and he can move in no direction without dieing, right in front of him is a nice juicy berry.  He reaches out, and savors every bit of it.  I think I have heard some British saying, if you can't move forward or you can't move back its time to sit for a spot of tea. 

Thank you for letting me get all conceptual...;-)


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Reply from zenmanstan
Sep.13.2012
12:56AM EDT 
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vertical line the future is uncertain.

its only laid out like that if you make the wrong choice at all times, destiny is up to you and your dreams if you make the right choice.
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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.13.2012
02:26AM EDT 
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vertical line There is a story of about 30 people on a bus traveling in India. The people are going to see a Guru. They are all very excited. And along the way they near a town which is suppose to have a spiritual celebration. So, the people on the bus are arguing whether to go there or not. Some want to get to the Guru as fast as possible cause the place is so far away. Others want to see this celebration. They asked their leader. The leader says okay we'll drive by to take a quick look. As they drive into town, they see the Guru walk by the bus. They quickly stop the bus and chase down the Guru. When they catch up to him, the Guru says that their lunch has been prepared and ready for them to eat. Lunch for 30 people already set ahead of time by the Guru. Remember this is India. Lunch for 30 strangers is a big deal.

So was it choice or was it fate?? Was it free will that brought them there or was it destiny??
How would the Guru know they would go that way??
I have no idea.
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Reply from starduster
Sep.13.2012
04:34AM EDT 
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Quote: "Quote: "The only thing that remains certain is that everything change.
People who have a heavy ego and are not at all spiritual can change
Suffering can make one change. Suffering of ones own making.

So the question is .. is it by choice??
We all make choices.
Is it free will or is it destiny?

You have to know more than I do to answer that one.
"
.........

Ready for some crazy metaphysical mumbo jumbo that you are more than welcome to throw out as soon as you hear it?

It is both.

Our perception of linear time makes us think we have a choice.  Yet in truth it is all laid out.  At the same time, the universe is composed of multiple dimensions, alternate past and alternate futures and realities difficult to conceive of.  The point is every choice you could ever make or ever could have made, were made in an alternate universe and that universe exist side by side with the one you are in now, and on and on, into infinity.  it all exist as ONE. Begining and End are one.  So if you ask is it destiny the answer is yes, if you ask is it free will the answer is yes.  There really is nothing to lose and nothing to gain, nothing was ever yours to begin with, nothing was ever lost in the end.  Now thats a whole lot of nice hog-wash, in the end, what really matters, is right here, and right now.  There is that story about a monk traped between two tigers, he is momentarily safe on a vine he clings to and he can move in no direction without dieing, right in front of him is a nice juicy berry.  He reaches out, and savors every bit of it.  I think I have heard some British saying, if you can't move forward or you can't move back its time to sit for a spot of tea. 

Thank you for letting me get all conceptual...;-)


"
.........

I share this view of One Time, all time being one time, destiny and free choice coexisting in that every choice you could ever make you have already made.

Janis Joplin said, *Its all one day, man.*

My visionary travels are not always linear.  I have seen the future many times, and then it has come true.  Time travel is possible.  Some say time is like a meandering river, you can go upstream or down, its all there at one time.

When I go into meditation, I not only have no idea of where I will end up, but also when.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142599
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.13.2012
07:36AM EDT 
vertical line There is no free choice. Did you miss it?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142609
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Reply from starduster
Sep.16.2012
06:45AM EDT 
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Quote: "There is no free choice. Did you miss it?"
.........

I see your point.

The alpha is the omega, and the omega is the alpha.

As the One, we make the choices that become our individual destinies.

No, I dont miss 'Free Choice', because I know that deep down

all the choices are mine, yours, ours, theirs, etc.

Mind.

It helps to understand that we all share the same subconscious mind.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142698
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