history principles practice stories, books, media discussion forum organizations resources
zenguide.com logo
 
Wednesday Jul 30 2014 07:18PM ET
º login º register º email º guestbook º printer friendly
grey dot
  The Zen master Hakuin was praised by his neighbours as one living a pure life. A beautiful Japanese girl whose parents owned a food store lived near him. Suddenly, without any warning, her parents discovered she was with child. This... continue...

z
.
e
.
n
menu left history menu spacer principles menu spacer practice menu spacer zen media menu spacer discussion forum menu spacer organization directory menu spacer resources  
login
  DISCUSSION FORUM
» topic list   » start a new topic   » my tracked topics   » view topic
grey dot

horizontal line
→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: ZEN AND LOGIC
vertical line Posted on Sep.12.2012 @ 08:20PM EDT by Riverstone
Thank goodness logic is only a self imposed limitation.... because the closer I get to Zen the more crystal is my neurosis.....logic would say ...Step AWAY FROM THE ZEN!

Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Sep.12.2012
09:45PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Zen Lab.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142579
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Sep.12.2012
10:02PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line House of Buddha.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142580
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.12.2012
10:04PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Logic is a tool devised by men who want to figure things out.
It has its limitations. And sometimes intuition becomes a better tool.
But, I have seen things go against intuition also.
So, what is a good way to go ...???
I would say keep an open mind and keep the practice.
For the practice has kept me sane in an insane world
or vicesa versa???
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142581
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Sep.12.2012
10:53PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Enlightenment is feeling based.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142583
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.12.2012
11:14PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Enlightenment is feeling based. "
.........

That's what you think.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142586
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.12.2012
11:16PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Enlightenment is feeling based. "
.........

That's what you think.
"
.........
As far as I know, enlightenment isn't what you think
But, more of .. what you are.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142587
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Riverstone
Sep.13.2012
01:00AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Enlightenment is feeling based. "
.........

That's what you think.
"
.........
As far as I know, enlightenment isn't what you think
But, more of .. what you are.
"
.........

Not being enligthened myself...here is my take...

Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Enlightenment is feeling based. "
.........

That's what you think.
"
.........
As far as I know, enlightenment isn't what you think
But, more of .. what you are.
"
.........



I like to think of it like this.  I am sitting under a tree.  The sun is shining through the green canopy above me. All around me is a quilt pattern of leafy green shadow and golden sunlight.  You can imagine that the gold part is the good part of your life, the wonderful moments, the happy moments.  the shadows are the dark moments, the painful moments. The shadow and lightplay do not stay still.  They are in constant motion.  And all together they create a pleasing pattern not too dissimilar to watching the liquid surface of water undulate.  From this vantage there is no judging the pattern, no being caught up in the light or the dark, they are part of one another. 

As lovely as this all sounds, it still sucks when your heart is broken. When I embrace suffering, suffering ceases, it is only the truth.  It is not just suffering, everything ceases.  Joy, love, every form and every imaginable reality, they all cease, it is the nature of our linear perspective.  In the midst of a broken heart it feels eternal, as if it will never end, but that is not true, eventually, it ends.  The end of suffering does not mean, no suffering, it means  you can relax, it is in the nature of all things, that they end, even suffering. 

I am willing to admit this may be an incorrect perspective, but that is what I feel, deep inside me, at this particular moment.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142592
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.13.2012
01:10AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Enlightenment is feeling based. "
.........

That's what you think.
"
.........
As far as I know, enlightenment isn't what you think
But, more of .. what you are.
"
.........

More of what you think.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142594
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.13.2012
01:17AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Enlightenment is feeling based. "
.........

That's what you think.
"
.........
As far as I know, enlightenment isn't what you think
But, more of .. what you are.
"
.........

Not being enligthened myself...here is my take...

Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Enlightenment is feeling based. "
.........

That's what you think.
"
.........
As far as I know, enlightenment isn't what you think
But, more of .. what you are.
"
.........



I like to think of it like this.  I am sitting under a tree.  The sun is shining through the green canopy above me. All around me is a quilt pattern of leafy green shadow and golden sunlight.  You can imagine that the gold part is the good part of your life, the wonderful moments, the happy moments.  the shadows are the dark moments, the painful moments. The shadow and lightplay do not stay still.  They are in constant motion.  And all together they create a pleasing pattern not too dissimilar to watching the liquid surface of water undulate.  From this vantage there is no judging the pattern, no being caught up in the light or the dark, they are part of one another. 

As lovely as this all sounds, it still sucks when your heart is broken. When I embrace suffering, suffering ceases, it is only the truth.  It is not just suffering, everything ceases.  Joy, love, every form and every imaginable reality, they all cease, it is the nature of our linear perspective.  In the midst of a broken heart it feels eternal, as if it will never end, but that is not true, eventually, it ends.  The end of suffering does not mean, no suffering, it means  you can relax, it is in the nature of all things, that they end, even suffering. 

I am willing to admit this may be an incorrect perspective, but that is what I feel, deep inside me, at this particular moment.

"
.........

Yep. I don't know what enlightenment is, but you got that right. Everything changes, and not accepting that causes suffering, which also changes, and causes not suffering. But...who is it that is suffering and not suffering?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142595
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.13.2012
01:56AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I like to think of it like this.  I am sitting under a tree.  The sun is shining through the green canopy above me. All around me is a quilt pattern of leafy green shadow and golden sunlight.  You can imagine that the gold part is the good part of your life, the wonderful moments, the happy moments.  the shadows are the dark moments, the painful moments. The shadow and lightplay do not stay still.  They are in constant motion.  And all together they create a pleasing pattern not too dissimilar to watching the liquid surface of water undulate.  From this vantage there is no judging the pattern, no being caught up in the light or the dark, they are part of one another. 

As lovely as this all sounds, it still sucks when your heart is broken. When I embrace suffering, suffering ceases, it is only the truth.  It is not just suffering, everything ceases.  Joy, love, every form and every imaginable reality, they all cease, it is the nature of our linear perspective.  In the midst of a broken heart it feels eternal, as if it will never end, but that is not true, eventually, it ends.  The end of suffering does not mean, no suffering, it means  you can relax, it is in the nature of all things, that they end, even suffering. 

I am willing to admit this may be an incorrect perspective, but that is what I feel, deep inside me, at this particular moment.

"
.........

Yes, that sounds right. Suffering doesn't end ... as in no more suffering.
Just that with this new perspective, we change our relationship to suffering.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142596
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.13.2012
05:01AM EDT 
vertical line

Sometimes people in meditation, and hypnosis and other trance states for that matter, cry for no apparent reason.

Deep down within us all is a common core.  Call it what you will, I call It the Spirit, because that is the connection It has chosen with me.

All One = alone.  Hardened criminals can only go a few days in the hole, or in solitary, but the Spirit has done it for an eternity.  Still is doing it.  Suffering eternal pain of loneliness and sorrow. 

I have experienced this pain many times, many many times.  It is indescribable, and the worst imaginings of Hell are a blessing by comparison.  It is like being hit in the stomach with a wrecking ball, and swept away into an eternity of darkness.  My best description, and still a blessing by comparison.

Is this true?  Im not the only one who has felt this pain.  I know some others, and have read accounts of it hundred of years old.  It is not the Truth, but at the moment it is true.

Thats the reason for Creation.  Its all illusion, but its better than nothing.  Ignorance is bliss.  The Spirit lives vicariously through us, through what we are able to believe in our ignorance.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142601
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.13.2012
06:23AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Recently while I was meditating, a song popped up. Anyone who has a song stuck in their heads knows how annoying it can be. But, it would be let go and disappear. Later, when I would stop meditating, it came back. I just didn't understand why this song was so persistent.

The song was by Gilbert O'Sullivan called "Alone Again Naturally."

Alone Again Naturally

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142605
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.13.2012
07:27AM EDT 
vertical line ^
^
^
What a huge load of self-imposed s h i t. Thank Aviator.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142606
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.13.2012
08:08AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "^
^
^
What a huge load of self-imposed s h i t. Thank Aviator.
"
.........

You're welcome :-P
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142615
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.13.2012
08:11AM EDT 
vertical line Joekepus. Keep it.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142617
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Sep.13.2012
08:24AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line

Quote: "Recently while I was meditating, a song popped up. Anyone who has a song stuck in their heads knows how annoying it can be. But, it would be let go and disappear. Later, when I would stop meditating, it came back. I just didn't understand why this song was so persistent.

The song was by Gilbert O'Sullivan called "Alone Again Naturally."

Alone Again Naturally

"
.........

It is 5 o'clock.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142618
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Sep.13.2012
09:45AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line feel the rhythm of your heart!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142620
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Sep.13.2012
09:54AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line I sometimes babble out.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142621
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.13.2012
09:54AM EDT 
vertical line lub dub
lub dub
luv dup
luv dup
luv dup
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142622
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Sep.13.2012
10:01AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line

lub dup

lub dup

lup dup

lub dup

lub dup

lub dup

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142623
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.13.2012
10:37AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Recently while I was meditating, a song popped up. Anyone who has a song stuck in their heads knows how annoying it can be. But, it would be let go and disappear. Later, when I would stop meditating, it came back. I just didn't understand why this song was so persistent.

The song was by Gilbert O'Sullivan called "Alone Again Naturally."

Alone Again Naturally

"
.........

Gotta love it !!

As Chontri has pointed out here, sitting and meditation are not the same thing.

In sitting, things that arise are allowed to pass.

In meditation, with or without a subject or purpose, things that arise are explored to find what value they may possess.

Personally, I do both.  I often just sit, to rest and rest and relax, with no focus at all, and at other times go down into an hypnotic or transcendental meditative trance to travel.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142625
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from boymonk
Sep.13.2012
03:39PM EDT 
vertical line The illustrious Riverstone fails to realize that whatever the dualistic opposite of logic is, it is also limited.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142633
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Riverstone
Sep.13.2012
05:51PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "The illustrious Riverstone fails to realize that whatever the dualistic opposite of logic is, it is also limited."
.........


I am not sure how I conveyed that the opposite of logic is not also limited, I mean if you are going to divide logic away by virtue of that act, it now has a limit. None-the less, yes sir, I can easily see that. By the way, I reserve the right to expound a limited perspective as I explore, it is after-all a limitation of conceptual language, which uses a frame of references. I have seen teachers tell students they are wrong "end of discussion". Had the teacher explored, it was not that their student was wrong, it was the language he had to use to convey "it" which initiated the limited personal frame of reference of the teacher. So weather I failed to realize or you failed to lift your personal perspective filter, vice a versa or both, I am not sure of and it is not necessary to explore, except to say, I have a right to my perspective, flawed in your eyes, or not. And to further clarify I am not jumping on you, I am appreciative of your perspective and invite it again, because sometimes, it pops me out of a limitation i am clinging to that I did not see at the time. I personally don't think this is one of those times.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142634
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.13.2012
09:55PM EDT 
vertical line It's always one of those times.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142638
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.13.2012
09:56PM EDT 
vertical line Until it's not.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142639
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from boymonk
Sep.14.2012
02:04AM EDT 
vertical line It's one of those times, trust me on this one.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142642
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Riverstone
Sep.14.2012
02:41AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "It's one of those times, trust me on this one."
.........

;-)

I don't see it.  So if it is one of those times, it sits well within the usual experience of it, namely, "I don't see it". 

I'll tell you why I wrote that, about logic and neurosis.  I have seen some bullyish behavior within the communication style of some "zen practitioners".  I even saw it in someone who I did not like seeing it, because of that person's position.  And with the scandals of leaders and abbots and teachers abusing their power, well, it even amplifies my feeling of being disturbed.  In co-dependant, dysfunctional abusive relationships you are expected to "just know" and "don't ask questions, just do".  I can see how the teachings of zen are "real", yet I am worried, concerned, disturbed, troubled, that because Zen came from a different culture it has not yet adapted to westerners and I think, very much, that it should.  In opressive relationships you get things like the scandals which have rocked Zen Buddhism in America.  I am leery....at this moment...forgive me if this is not very "Zen" but it is my truth at this time.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142643
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.14.2012
07:01AM EDT 
vertical line Don't worry. There is no "Zen" here.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142644
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.14.2012
07:24AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Don't worry. There is no "Zen" here."
.........

There is no anywhere in Zen. 

The moment before time.

Nothingness.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142647
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.14.2012
07:32AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "The illustrious Riverstone fails to realize that whatever the dualistic opposite of logic is, it is also limited."
.........

Logic is limited to duality.  There is no logic in Oneness.

Logic is based on *if this, then that*.  Depends on having at least two parts.

Oneness only has one part, overall, that is to say All, and is not logical.

Koans have no logical solution.  Contemplating them wears down logic,

and then hopefully when logic collapses in on itself one can see Oneness.

is Oneness limited ?

Initself it is nothing, nothing in partifcular, nothingness, not even time or space,

but it is also anythingness, boundless creation, multidimensional, illusion, delusion.

Is the awareness of the One illusion?  Delusion?  Therein lies the rub ....

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142648
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.14.2012
07:37AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Quote: "The illustrious Riverstone fails to realize that whatever the dualistic opposite of logic is, it is also limited."
.........


I am not sure how I conveyed that the opposite of logic is not also limited, I mean if you are going to divide logic away by virtue of that act, it now has a limit. None-the less, yes sir, I can easily see that. By the way, I reserve the right to expound a limited perspective as I explore, it is after-all a limitation of conceptual language, which uses a frame of references. I have seen teachers tell students they are wrong "end of discussion". Had the teacher explored, it was not that their student was wrong, it was the language he had to use to convey "it" which initiated the limited personal frame of reference of the teacher. So weather I failed to realize or you failed to lift your personal perspective filter, vice a versa or both, I am not sure of and it is not necessary to explore, except to say, I have a right to my perspective, flawed in your eyes, or not. And to further clarify I am not jumping on you, I am appreciative of your perspective and invite it again, because sometimes, it pops me out of a limitation i am clinging to that I did not see at the time. I personally don't think this is one of those times.
"
.........

I reserve the right to expound a limited perspective as I explore, it is after-all a limitation of conceptual language, which uses a frame of references.

-------------------------------

Keep doing that.  I enjoy your writings.  Dont let anyone run you off. 

The purpose of a forum is the exchange of divergent views.

If we all had the same views and opinions, there would be no forum,

just a bunch of automatons with nothing better to do than post their non-ideas.

Actually, I guess we have our share of those too.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142649
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.14.2012
08:07AM EDT 
vertical line Yeah, they're bullet-proof.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142650
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.14.2012
08:38AM EDT 
vertical line Non-ideas are ideas, is a bullet-proof idea.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142652
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from boymonk
Sep.14.2012
12:03PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "It's one of those times, trust me on this one."
.........

;-)

I don't see it.  So if it is one of those times, it sits well within the usual experience of it, namely, "I don't see it". 

I'll tell you why I wrote that, about logic and neurosis.  I have seen some bullyish behavior within the communication style of some "zen practitioners".  I even saw it in someone who I did not like seeing it, because of that person's position.  And with the scandals of leaders and abbots and teachers abusing their power, well, it even amplifies my feeling of being disturbed.  In co-dependant, dysfunctional abusive relationships you are expected to "just know" and "don't ask questions, just do".  I can see how the teachings of zen are "real", yet I am worried, concerned, disturbed, troubled, that because Zen came from a different culture it has not yet adapted to westerners and I think, very much, that it should.  In opressive relationships you get things like the scandals which have rocked Zen Buddhism in America.  I am leery....at this moment...forgive me if this is not very "Zen" but it is my truth at this time.
"
.........

Don't be so shamed. There's nothing to be ashamed about. Shame is ALL EGO.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142656
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.14.2012
12:56PM EDT 
vertical line Been digging weeds today in a sou'westerly.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142659
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Sep.14.2012
01:29PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Got a large assortment of free homemade cookies for giving loads of free tomatoes away last night at work. And became a friend to someone I was seen as an enemy to.

Playing my guitar and singing again, and am going to give a personal concert, and reconnect former lives again.  It's happening, each breath is sacred. I feel a new song!

                                              Take what I can give to help you live beside my joy
                                                 free to live outside the pain turn away from suffering

                                                          I sit and stare off into space and give to all of human race
                                                             I live to give love to live more with less
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142660
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Sep.14.2012
01:31PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line              Just saw the light, the sun within your eyes, as in mine not surprised we are here       again, again, again my friend.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142661
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Sep.15.2012
08:26AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line

Quote: "Don't worry. There is no "Zen" here."
.........

Look closer.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142677
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Woodsman
Sep.15.2012
09:40AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line No thing, just being, being beginning.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142680
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Sep.16.2012
11:31AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line You guys are making the Truths (which I know)  - Wrong and the Wrongs(which I know)  - Right one by one. Seems we can not begin before disprove the believes that we know. I now understand the middle way more clear and begin to understand How big is the Buddha! 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142713
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.16.2012
01:02PM EDT 
vertical line It's a vast and endless ocean. Don't think about it. Just keep swimming.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142716
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.16.2012
01:30PM EDT 
vertical line Raining rest.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142718
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Sep.16.2012
02:34PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line

Quote: "It's a vast and endless ocean. Don't think about it. Just keep swimming. "
.........

(I want to scribble something) middle way is the way of love.all should practice one day.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142719
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from boymonk
Sep.16.2012
03:36PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "It's a vast and endless ocean. Don't think about it. Just keep primping. "
.........

Uh, alright.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142728
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Sep.16.2012
03:56PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "It's a vast and endless ocean. Don't think about it. Just keep primping. "
.........

Uh, alright.
"
.........

Muddy waters.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142729
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Sep.16.2012
11:26PM EDT 
vertical line Zen is also logic but logic is not Zen.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142734
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from boymonk
Sep.17.2012
01:14AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "It's a vast and endless ocean. Don't think about it. Just keep primping. "
.........

Uh, alright.
"
.........

Muddy fathers.
"
.........

Huh?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142739
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.17.2012
10:07AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Zen is also logic but logic is not Zen. "
.........

You keep that up and I;m going to bust  a gut laughing ...hahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142761
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.17.2012
11:49AM EDT 
vertical line Put rid... hahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142764
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.18.2012
04:58AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Zen is also logic but logic is not Zen. "
.........

Logic makes sense of the subject matter at hand, if this then that.  It is always dualistic because in order for one thing to follow another there must be at least two things.

Zen is not dualistic, but it makes sense of everything, including nothing, or anything, all at once, as One.  It is whatever it is being, all at once, in one moment, Things as It is.

Dependent arising, or as I prefer to call it, interdependent arising.  It is all at once, but if you look at individual parts they are dependent on one another.  Like parts of your body depend on one another, like your blood depends on veins and arteries, and a heart to pump it through them, etc.  But its all just one body.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142779
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from boymonk
Sep.18.2012
09:51PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Zen is also logic but logic is not Zen. "
.........

You keep that up and I'm going to bust a gut clapping ...hahaha
"
.........

Waite, you clap with your... nevermind!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142808
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Sep.19.2012
02:58AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Zen is also logic but logic is not Zen. "
.........

Logic makes sense of the subject matter at hand, if this then that.  It is always dualistic because in order for one thing to follow another there must be at least two things.

Zen is not dualistic, but it makes sense of everything, including nothing, or anything, all at once, as One.  It is whatever it is being, all at once, in one moment, Things as It is.

Dependent arising, or as I prefer to call it, interdependent arising.  It is all at once, but if you look at individual parts they are dependent on one another.  Like parts of your body depend on one another, like your blood depends on veins and arteries, and a heart to pump it through them, etc.  But its all just one body.

Exactly Zen is everything including logic but logic cannot be everything like Zen.




"
.........
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142820
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.19.2012
04:34AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Zen is also logic but logic is not Zen. "
.........

Logic makes sense of the subject matter at hand, if this then that.  It is always dualistic because in order for one thing to follow another there must be at least two things.

Zen is not dualistic, but it makes sense of everything, including nothing, or anything, all at once, as One.  It is whatever it is being, all at once, in one moment, Things as It is.

Dependent arising, or as I prefer to call it, interdependent arising.  It is all at once, but if you look at individual parts they are dependent on one another.  Like parts of your body depend on one another, like your blood depends on veins and arteries, and a heart to pump it through them, etc.  But its all just one body.

Exactly Zen is everything including logic but logic cannot be everything like Zen.




"
.........
"
.........

Logic is limited to duality.  There is no logic in Oneness.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142821
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.20.2012
06:24AM EDT 
vertical line Oneness is your idea of unity, manifest in Duality.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142859
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.20.2012
08:57AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Oneness is your idea of unity, manifest in Duality."
.........

Oneness is my memory of nothing in existence but a single awareness, with no thought, recollection, or knowledge within Itself of it ever having been any other way.

Then witnessing my own creation, and being there with It, in It, as myself, consciously, but in a formless genderless spiritual state, like the Spirit Itself.

And then witnessing the creation of countless *planes of existence*, including this one, as seen through the Spirit Itself, whom I was in, and marvelling that the Spirit was in control of every last detail of every one of them, since it was creating them.

I came away from that experience with an understanding of Oneness, and that creation is an ongoing thing, never past tense, as all time is created at one time.  And thus I coined this paradigm:

Time is a canvas, stretched across a framework of space, upon which God paints with the brushes and pigments of cause and effect.

Like an artist before a canvas, God sees all of it at one time, and can change any of it at will simply by scraping part of it away and painting over it.  Or can toss the whole thing and start all over again with a fresh canvas. 

God can create anything imaginable.  The only thing God cant do is stop being God, alone, in the Void.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142867
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.20.2012
09:16AM EDT 
vertical line Your prayer to the darkness beyond light.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142868
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.20.2012
10:43AM EDT 
vertical line My prayer is to keep the Spirit company, in the Void, forever, so that It will never be alone again.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142872
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from nibble
Sep.20.2012
04:36PM EDT 
vertical line

Ok.., like, are you like totally sure you are ready for this? If we are talking about the same spirit then I at least knows it is love since it totally

cannot be the looks you're after since she like is not amongst the most prettiest of spirits, brrhh wadda skank,  but whatever is between you two!

Just remember it`s a reason she has been lonely so long and use condoms! And it`s kinda a totally sloppy spirit, just look at the halfass job she did with this planet to get what I mean, but hey, it`s your eternity, it is not my job to determine what you're gonna do the next 3787589378458 trillion years+ but  good luck, ok?:)

(no, I do not really wanna know what you REally mean when you speak of the "spirit" but you're going to tell me anyway so just come òn and get it done with:))

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142874
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from nibble
Sep.20.2012
05:29PM EDT 
vertical line Like it sounds booring Starduster, sorry but I can not help it. Hanging out in some void with some lonely spirit entety whatever forever,
like, had it at least been like -but first- I have been promised an excistense where I become total dictator over the earth, and then another excistense as a 1000 ton prehistoric dinosaure beeing swept forward trough some freakish time loop ending up in the centre of modern day tokyo before topping of with an excistensde as an artificial intelligence robot set out to kill all humans or something
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142875
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.21.2012
04:57AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Ok.., like, are you like totally sure you are ready for this? If we are talking about the same spirit then I at least knows it is love since it totally

cannot be the looks you're after since she like is not amongst the most prettiest of spirits, brrhh wadda skank,  but whatever is between you two!

Just remember it`s a reason she has been lonely so long and use condoms! And it`s kinda a totally sloppy spirit, just look at the halfass job she did with this planet to get what I mean, but hey, it`s your eternity, it is not my job to determine what you're gonna do the next 3787589378458 trillion years+ but  good luck, ok?:)

(no, I do not really wanna know what you REally mean when you speak of the "spirit" but you're going to tell me anyway so just come òn and get it done with:))

"
.........

"
.........

Not to worry, nibble, just so happens I have a nine inch dick. 

Of course, the strap is a bit awkward and gets in the way sometimes, but ....

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142876
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.21.2012
05:01AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Like it sounds booring Starduster, sorry but I can not help it. Hanging out in some void with some lonely spirit entety whatever forever,
like, had it at least been like -but first- I have been promised an excistense where I become total dictator over the earth, and then another excistense as a 1000 ton prehistoric dinosaure beeing swept forward trough some freakish time loop ending up in the centre of modern day tokyo before topping of with an excistensde as an artificial intelligence robot set out to kill all humans or something
"
.........

True love is never boring, its all consuming.

There have been times when I have had to get up from my meditation and walk around, fillings my lungs with air, just to convince myself I havent died and gone to heaven.

Some say God is Love.  Maybe they have felt that too. 

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142877
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from nibble
Sep.21.2012
08:40AM EDT 
vertical line As long as you keep ur sense of humor it`s good for me:)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142879
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.22.2012
07:00AM EDT 
vertical line Whoooo ... let it go ... and the prayer ... to the light of the darkness glittering, beyond one and oneness.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142894
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Sep.23.2012
09:07AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Whoooo ... let it go ... and the prayer ... to the light of the darkness glittering, beyond one and oneness."
.........

What is real, the dark screen or the image projected upon it ?

Both.

It is whatever It is being, dark or light.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142934
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.23.2012
09:43AM EDT 
vertical line Fogging the free mirror.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 142936
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Aug.01.2013
12:21PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line A beautiful young woman open her hands and a butterfly spreads its wings and starts it flight upward towards the sky.
As it floats so gently up, a bird comes swooping down and grabs the butterfly in it beak.
The bird lands and rips the wings off the butterfly and proceeds to devour it.

Yes, set your ideas free and the forum will have at it ... hahahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 153926
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Aug.01.2013
02:45PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line In thought...
...not caught in thought

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 153931
horizontal line
 
Back To Topic List   Go to Top of Page

 



SUPPORT ZENGUIDE.COM
If you are planning on purchasing any product from amazon.com, you can help us out by using the search box to the right or by clicking on this link to begin shopping.


Purchase posters, art prints, media (music CD & DVD)

buy this MEIJI SHRINE
by Andre Kertesz
Puchase this Item
More Art Prints & Media
Zen & Buddhism books
 
 
d
.
i
.
s
.
c
.
u
.
s
.
s
.
i
.
o
.
n
.

.
f
.
o
.
r
.
u
.
m
.
Copyright © 1999 - 2014 zenguide.com - All rights reserved. °