Hardship, in forcing us to exercise greater patience and forbearance in daily life, actually makes us stronger and more robust. From the daily experience of hardship comes a greater capacity to accept difficulties without losing our sense of inner calm. Of course, I do not advocate seeking out hardship as a way of life, but merely wish to suggest that, if you relate to it constructively, it can bring greater inner strength and fortitude.

Quote: "Bigmouth Strikes Again "
.........

The Queen is dead ha?

haha..nobody believes that..

gassho

rich harvest

May her blessing

Put that visions in a balloon

leave it to the sky

and stay where it boom

"Written on the horse tab"

Hardship is like any other experiences offer a great lesson to understand own self . in Buddhism all experiences whether hardship or living in the luxury is of SAME and EQUAL that offered a great deal of lesson in own learning process . One could seek to explore , to experience , to understand his desire/emotion in any condition whether in hardship or luxury ..............In Buddhism inner self will always be concurrent with own realization , the more you understand yourself the more calm you will be , the more you free from yourself , free from your desire / emotion the more calm you will be .......and in any condition is the same . The children of Bill Gates is in same & equal condition with the children of a begger in Buddhism as they are in SAME and EQUAL condition to learn , to understand , to explore or experience themselves ....as in Buddhism is always OWN will , OWN journey of OWN Choice in OWN world never caused by others .

Thks

CSEe

I never have any interest in any form of "practice" -meditation etc ...I do not wish to know why but you could share your practice with me .

Thks

CSEe

Dear Avisitor , to me there are countless way , trillions method to Buddhism ...so if I dont find your path suitable with me that is fine with me ........I found that Buddhism is learned by creation of many tradition . Meditation , all the terminology is too-too hard for me .Buddhism is fun , should be fun ...the more I understand buddhism , the more fun I am .

Thks

CSEe

Thanks ........is all part of own learning process .

CSEe

Maybe so, but this site is dedicated to discussion about Zen and Buddhism, including debating them,

so say what you have to say, CSEe, youre in the right place,

and where you are on your path is not where you were or where you will be, its just where you are now.

Dear Avisitor , you said " You're a fool to keep believing that there are trillions ow ways to become AWAKENED.
If that were so then trillions of people would have become AWAKENED. But, they are not."Un-quote

You are right , in Buddhism perhaps is fool of me believing I "own" my body , or "my daughter" is belong to me .............yes I am a fool but by further understanding of Buddhism , I will be more and more becoming nobody NEVER becoming wiser .

in Buddhism , all being exist becouse of attachment on polluted energy as human I exist becouse of my will to exist , my emotions , my desire , my love / compassion to continue to exist .........that is why we exist . Buddhismis a PROCESS to end our existance to be back to the original state before polluted - the emptiness .So even trillions of people awaken still they will continue to exist as long as they have will to exist ...perhaps if all enlighterned being accepted " the self" and free from ownself.....there is no human existant anymore .

You said " And you also will never find the truth. Buddhism is not about debate. There is no secret knowledge. Everything you need to find your true nature, to AWAKEN, satori, Nirvana, is there within your reach. Practice meditation. Even Buddha needed to meditate to become AWAKENED."

Yes in my current opinion emptiness is major part of all being . In human whether a monk or a serial killer still emptiness is major part of them , is just the tiny little polluted energy that makes them believe who they are insead of what are they .

You said "Don't kid yourself and don't put others on false path. You either find your true nature, Buddha nature or you must prepare your casket and plot of land. Death becomes you.
All your opinions and thoughts and knowledge won't save you from the ground.
But, be of good cheer ... you will go thinking that you were right .. no matter what happeneds ... hahahaha" un-quote

Thanks for reminding me again on my casket , come to think of it is not a bad idea to go out and find one ..............dear Avisitor , why cant we debate or perhaps you could recomment me to any" teacher" that willing to debate with me .

Thks

CSEe

Luck is not what I need in Buddhism ....sorry in advance I have tried to explore your understanding but I find no reason to agree with it right now perhaps I will agree with you after I move to greater understanding but NOT now .....Still I wish to debate with anyone on ANY topic and EVERY topic ........regards to Buddhism .

Thks

CSEe

There is no method to becoming awakened, and any path can lead to it.  Buddhism, Christianity, Satanism, or any other religion, all are equal as paths to awakening.

My mother meditated all her life and did not become awakened.  My father, a devout Catholic, did not meditate, rejected it altogether vehemently, and yet became awakened just before he died.

It comes from within, and there is no way to cause it to happen.  Work and slave all you will, to no avail.  It will come in its own good time, in this lifetime or another, which matters not at all.

From the top of the mountain you can see that all paths lead there, and none better than another.  Choose the path that is best for you, the most fulfilling, the one that feels right to you inside.  But hold no reverence for the path itself, but only if at all for the mountain top to which it leads.

There is no method to becoming awakened, and any path can lead to it.  Buddhism, Christianity, Satanism, or any other religion, all are equal as paths to awakening.

Dear Starduster  , you said " My mother meditated all her life and did not become awakened.  My father, a devout Catholic, did not meditate, rejected it altogether vehemently, and yet became awakened just before he died.

It comes from within, and there is no way to cause it to happen.  Work and slave all you will, to no avail.  It will come in its own good time, in this lifetime or another, which matters not at all.

From the top of the mountain you can see that all paths lead there, and none better than another.  Choose the path that is best for you, the most fulfilling, the one that feels right to you inside.  But hold no reverence for the path itself, but only if at all for the mountain top to which it leads." Un-quote .

what is awaken ? How can you know if others awaken ? In my current understanding of Buddhism....awaken is means that AWAKE to AWARE .......if you in each moment in your life , awake to aware " what are you" instead of " who you are"......thats is awaken . Awaken is a very basic realization on self ....a factor to spark discovery , a factor to exploration on self , a factor to realize ........is all depend on own self , own will to be awake to aware .....Buddhism is beyond choosing right path , Buiddhism is to explore the desire to choose a path , the desire NEVER the goal .

Thks

CSEe 

Dear Avisitor you said " Any path can lead to it." Un-quote

Yes currently I can easily agree with you on this ....there are countless way of Buddhism.

You said "But, also any path can lead away from it.
The destinations aren't always the same for everyone." un-quote

Sorry , I cant find any reason in my common sense to agree with you right now . In my current understanding , there is ONLY one final destination of all being - final condition of all ,,,and that is EMPTINESS ......all path will end up in emptiness whether long / suffering path or shorter / less suffering way ....

You said "Dualistic thinking but ... there is a right way and there is a wrong way.
The wrong way is going to your desk to try to take a crap and going to the toilet to try to do your work. But, hey, whatever works for you ... hehehe" un-quote

In my current undesranding of Buddhism there will NEVER be right way or wrong way is all part of the learning process . If I do something that I could regret ....I will suffer from regrets ,,,,,,,and I will learn from it but if I do something that I will never regret ,,,I should also learn the reason / the cause of the action and it also be a part of my learning process .................

Thks

CSEe

Some ask how to know if you are awakened, or others are.

Awakening leaves no doubt because there is nothing left to doubt, literally nothing.

We call ourselves awakened, those of us who share this understanding, but we also know that it is as much an illusion as anything else.

Its all an illusion, except that which you believe in, which is delusion.

Dear starduster , you said " Some ask how to know if you are awakened, or others are.Awakening leaves no doubt because there is nothing left to doubt, literally nothing.We call ourselves awakened, those of us who share this understanding, but we also know that it is as much an illusion as anything else.Its all an illusion, except that which you believe in, which is delusion." Un-quote

Perhaps is understanding on meaning of words ...you have your understanding on " awakening" and I had mine .....

To me I am currently using the words " Enlighterned" for a condition of acceptance , a condition without any choice to choose , a condition without any doubt .....awakening is being AWAKE to aware what am I , what is the purpose of my existance , what is me and the end of me. Awakening is  realization on the purpose of our existant , the purpose of our life .....Awakening is NOT illusion by any way .Living life without self exploration , with faith , with desire to defend ownself , with embition to have a great future in life , with desire to have "good" health , wealthy life IS Illusion ......awakening is knowing the purpose of life .

Thks

CSEe

Dear Avisitor , thanks for reply , you said " If you do not see the truth of my statements then you have led a sheltered life." un-quote

To me there is NO truth or FALSE in any statement even that statement from Mr Dalai Lama or Mr Siddharta himself . All statement / words / idea / thought is just an information for own investigation or exploration NEVER to be regarded as truth ... there is No truth or false in any action or words as all is part of the process known to me as Buddhism .

You said "There are those out there who would kill you just cause you looked at them the wrong way.Do you believe that is the right path? Un-quote

In knowledge , by human culture we were made to understand what is right and what is wrong . Yes by common knowledge that guy who kill me is wrong ....in my current understanding of Buddhism , the action of the guy is NEVER right or WRONG as all his action is part of his learning lesson and my learning process . The killer no matter whether he enjoy killing me or not at time of his action will move into greater understanding of himself .....so when he advance into greater understanding , he will regretted his action on me and his regret will cause suffering to him . His regret will be part of his learning process to understand his emotions ..........same as me or all my loved one , his action to me will provide a great learning lesson for all my family members / love one to understand their own compassion , love ......therefore in Buddhism there is NO action is right or wrong as all action is part of learning process for all .

You said "There is right and wrong. You just don't want to see it .. cause it disagrees with your precious ideas about Buddhism." un-quote

Dear Avisitor , sometime we could learn alot by reading our own writing ....why dont you read your own writing on me .............and try to understand me . I have said too many time I NEVER defend my ideas of Buddhism in any possible way ...I always challenge it for better understanding .

you said "So on something as simple as this we can not agree then there is no discussion.Please go your own way. I don't have time to waste.
" un-quote

Dear Avisitor , sorry in advance in any discussion or debate I never have any intention , wish , hope to influence others or to get others agree with me .......I prefer dis-agreement becouse I could learn more . I hope you not mad at me as I always regard you as a great source to learn ................

Thks

CSEe

I dont have to understand awakening.  I only have to recall the experience of being  *nothingness*. 

From that I have understanding of awakening, as do others whom I know and have talked about it.

If Ive got it wrong, then theyve got it wrong too, because we are on the same page with It, right or wrong.  We dont really care if we are right or wrong.  Its what we have.

"
.........

Still dreaming, remembering an experience. You stopped caring, that's why you got stuck. Until you get hit with a stick, and then you get pissed off. "Hey, stop that! I don't want to know that I'm wrong, so shut up and leave me to my dream of being awakened!"

Yeah, youre right, esoteric, and all the awakened people are wrong.

At the parade ground, on graduation day from boot camp, a mother was heard to say, *Oh look, everyone of those boys is out of step except my Johnny !!*

esoteric, your mother must be very proud !!

Dear Starduster , you said "I dont have to understand awakening.  I only have to recall the experience of being  *nothingness*.  From that I have understanding of awakening, as do others whom I know and have talked about it.If Ive got it wrong, then theyve got it wrong too, because we are on the same page with It, right or wrong.  We dont really care if we are right or wrong.  Its what we have." Un-quote .

I wish to learn how you do that , experience of being "nothingness".....without being awake . In my current understanding " nothingness" is NOT resulted from experience or emotions but is a reflection of acceptance ......one will be in nothingness is he feel no desire , no compassion , no emotions , freedom from self ...nothingness to be is enlightened ...a state of no choices , a condition of freedom from any emotions ..........

Awakening is resulted from own self realization NOT from knowledge .....awakening is being awake to aware , aware to realize , realize to accept and accept to further aware .......

Thks

CSEe

Dear Avisitor , you said " So, where does self realization come from???
Think about it for a while.
It doesn't come from knowledge.
Then where would it come from?" Un-quote

In my CURRENT opinion , self realization is a flection / a collection of all one desire , emotions , compassion , love , knowledge , will etc that sparked by a factor whether internally from him or outter source .

It was never depend on knowledge alone but a total "self" and sparked by a factor . Self realization is always caused by own self being awake to aware ...........is how you see yourself from outside yourself .......not like seeing you in the mirror but accidently found you outside your window ...........self realization is not resulted from planning , or desire or practice but a wake up call NOT from own alarm but from the noises outside the room ...............

Just like when I sleep at night and is 4am in the early morning , suddently I heard a voices ...........which I never plan or expected but it happens and I experience it ..........

Perhaps you could open up your closet and you will be surprise finding your old shirts or the new one you forgoten .................

All being is full of EMPTINESS but with tiny bit of polluted energy attached to it , self realization is realising it other than the normal which normally known .

You said " Certainly not debate cause that would only be more knowledge.
Where??Un-quote

As for me in internat the best option to further understand Buddhism is by debating .......Dear friend what else can we do except reading , learning text , thinking on the content ...gainning more knowledge ............by debating we could find the old shirt we had forgoten , the self that we never know , the long lost brother .....by debating we will force to explore the areas that we never been or dare not to go .....by debating we allow ourself to experience anger , ego , pride , love , desire .......by debating we could counter check our opinion ,.........by debating we will be more than ourself ..........

You said "Much like the question .. where did you come from before you were born??
Figure it out." Un-quote

Before CSEe , in my current understanding is a polluted energy of desire to exist , I exist becouse there is a will , a desire to exist and due to this desire , emotions I will always exist .......and continue to exist . In my current understanding ( not yet ready to accept ) there is no death , no birth in Buddhism as all the organ , the material form known as body is NEVER attached to me ...they just like others living or non-living same as me existed due to their polluted energy and same as me they are in their own purification process to free its polluted energy to be empty ...........and is not " figure it out".......but rather is resulted from self realization .

Thks

CSEe

Dear esoteric , you said Quote: "You keep saying "in my current understanding," but apparently what you really mean is "the ideas that I got from reading and talking to people."Un-quote

YES , what is my current understanding is always a collection of all my knowledge , experience , by all my action , by taliking to others , by debating with others ......that fit in my own common sense ......is NEVER own by me but is mine for only a paticular time .......is also will be yours as soon as it fit in in your common sense...but I never defended it ........but always challenge it and move into greater realization ........

You said " You're missing the whole point. Understanding does not come from reading, talking, debating, thinking, or reasoning. That's where IDEAS come from. But understanding Buddhism has nothing to do with ideas. In fact, ideas get in the way of direct insight and understanding. That is the point of practicing Zen." Un-quote

Have you read my posting ? Idea is a tiny part of self realization ..is the defending the idea is limiting self discovery ........

You said ' So, you are interested in purification. And yet, you haven't spoken at all about what you do to purify yourself or the world. Do you practice the Eightfold Path? Have you taken any vows? Do you practice meditation for purifying the mind?
" Un-quote

Buddhism is a PROCESS to purify for all being regardless living or non-living ........ so the whole PROCESS is to purify own self and all kind of meditation , teaching , understanding ...is just a tiny bit of the whole process ...........

I know you dont know anything about being awakened, because you have accused *awakened people* of thinking they are *special*, when really they are *separated, different, and isolated*.

Thats okay.  Its reflective of where you are on your path.  And if you dont know your ass from a hole in the ground, then you cant be expected to know much about either asses or holes in the ground.

You shouldnt be so judgemental about people that you admittedly know nothing about.  We dont think we are special.  We dont think we are important.  Its arguable to say we even exist.  The one thing we all seem to have in common is a great love for that which is the *nothingness*, the indefinable, the abstact One, to the extent that any of us that I know would readily give our lives, or even our existence, for It without question.

One old Zen Master put it as, *There are those who serve, and there are fools*. 

Good point.  I dont know any awakened Zen Masters, or at least none that I know of.  Im not a Buddhist, and would not claim to be a Zen Master either.  I would say Im a pratyeka buddha, but that is not necessarily in any classification, per se.  Thats just someone who became awakened without a teacher.

Lets see, one of the people to whom I refer is myself, from Transcendental Meditation:  another is Christian;  and a couple more are Hindu. 

Another point that would be well taken from you, inferentially, would be that in the Hindu texts Ive seen, not everyone who becomes awakened experiences Oneness as a personage.  Only some do.  So my reference would be to those who also have experienced themSelf as a Self, and how they feel about this One Self after having experienced it and returning to their normal consciousness.

I dont recall who said the thing about serving or being a fool.  Its from something I read long ago and regrettably do not recall the source.

I did not say there was anything separate about me, or even could be, that was part of the accusation of esoteric about so called awakened people being special, etc.  I would say again, we dont think we are special, we know we are not.

Others may think being awakened is special, because they expect to be when they attain it.  To them I would say, good luck with that.

Quote: ""I love God. It's people I don't like." "
.........

You have no idea what Ive been talking about,

yet you are quick to judge, and presume to *help*.

Take the log out of your own eye,

before taking the splinter out of mine. (I think thats from the Bible.)

What am I talking about ?

I am the splinter.