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  Posted on Jul.28.2009 @ 07:08PM EDT by chontri

Every created thing is like
A dream, an illusion, a bubble,
A dewdrop, a flash of lightning.
View all created things like this.

The Diamond Sutra
translated... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: PRACTICING WITHOUT A TEACHER
vertical line Posted on Sep.24.2012 @ 02:45PM EDT by Laurie

A teacher said that when she first learned about zen, she read books and sat zazen, but until she got involved with a sangha, she was only fantasizing.

I am moving to North Carolina from New York and do not drive, so I will not have access to a sangha (except online) and will not have a teacher. I sit zazen twice a day for thirty minutes each session and I read Dogen. Dogen implies that sitting zazen alone is practice.

Does anyone have any comments about practicing alone?


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Reply from floating_a
Sep.24.2012
03:05PM EDT 
vertical line Hi Laurie

Yes, I think the most important aspect about practice is continuation i.e. continue when it's easy and continue when it's hard.

There will be a lot of advise and advisors on the internet, but take the teachings and Dhamma as your guide, and compassion as the basis of a flowering heart.

Well wishes,
Abu

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Reply from football
Sep.24.2012
03:27PM EDT 
Email football
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Open clouds have limits.

Nothing like starry sky.

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Reply from Riverstone
Sep.24.2012
07:44PM EDT 
vertical line I have heard this consistently said that without a teacher you are not really practicing.

However;

What Zen practices points directly to something that is innately who we are, something natural, and simple.

Yet,

I have seen many who seem to understand that which I just said yet create overly thought out conceptual ideas of what Zen is. I am guilty of this myself. And often while in a class, in meditation, or discussing these things online. I discover these occlusions.

I would say it is not possible to practice Zen Buddhism by yourself as Zen Buddhism is Mahayana and immediately involves practice for more than just yourself. Yet if you look up Zen, you will find there are at minimum five types of Zen described. One type involves practicing on your own and another is practicing without any philosophical basis whatsoever, be it religious or conceptual.

So the teacher who says it is not possible to practice Zen by themselves, is clinging to their own paradigm. Something I find which occurs a bit much in Zen community, they cling to their concepts, as we all do. It is why we try to wake up to see where these clinging are.

If a spiritual path is not innate, if it is not something that would arise on it's own even after the fall of civilization, then i it is a construct. The Zen that can not be practiced by yourself, is a construct. I would allow these teachers to cling to their constructs but i would also advise, they have much to share, and much to help you not get lost in.

Sincerly

R
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Reply from Riverstone
Sep.24.2012
07:52PM EDT 
vertical line by the way

I am not saying I am absolutely correct.

I have great respect for teachers.

I was able to accomplish mental discipline without a teacher, yet I would have benefited greatly had there been one when I made a mistake.

And names are just empty things. Be it Zen, Dzogchen, Mahamudra or what have you, they are only a finger pointing at a moon, they are not the moon,so to speak.
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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.24.2012
10:01PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Hello there,
You are one of many who practice Zazen by themselves.
I like to think of it as something similar to learning how to play a musical instrument.
Some have great talent and only need the instrument to start the learning process.
Then go one to play some great things. Even compose.
Then there are the rest of us who struggle and work hard to get where we are today.
We need a teacher or someone who is further along in their practice to help guide us.
Not all the time but when we are stuck or just need the encouragement to go one with our practice.
I hope you will use this opportunity to talk with the people here. To learn and maybe to help others. Thanks for posting.
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Reply from starduster
Sep.25.2012
06:26AM EDT 
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I dont know, I never had a teacher.  But I did read everything about metaphysics that I could find, and tried a number of different meditation practices, even chanting. 

Transcendental Meditation worked best for me, so I stuck with that.  Still do.

Many religions say that they are the only way.  I never did buy that.  All paths lead to the top of the mountain, so there are many choices available.

If someone is convinced of the efficacy of their method, system, or belief, it is good that it is working for them.  But if they want to insist that others follow their way, and their way only, that is not good.  That is hindrance.

So I would suggest to be open minded to trying many methods of meditation, until you find the one that works best for you.

Dont believe in paths.  Believe there is a mountain top, and you will reach it no matter what path you choose.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.25.2012
06:55AM EDT 
vertical line Hello features. They ask us anything.
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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.25.2012
07:59AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Hi
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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.25.2012
08:43AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Hello features. They ask us anything. "
.........
\Yeah, do you have any down time?? ... haha
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.25.2012
10:05AM EDT 
vertical line On tap tap.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.25.2012
10:07AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Hi

"
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Hi
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Reply from Avisitor
Sep.25.2012
01:20PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Hi

"
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Hi
"
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Heeellllooooo
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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.25.2012
01:29PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Hi

"
.........

Hi
"
.........

Healllloooooww
                      ooooooowwweeerrrrrr
                                          still lowwerrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
                                                                  rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
                                                                              rrrrrrrrrrr
                                                                                  rrrrrr
                                                                                  rrr
                                                                                 r






                                                         r






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       t







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              s


 





                                  
?



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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.25.2012
02:19PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line . wwwooooMMMaaaannnNNnn...
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Reply from floating_a
Sep.25.2012
04:40PM EDT 
vertical line :-)
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Reply from boymonk
Sep.27.2012
09:31PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "by the way

I am not saying I am absolutely correct.
"
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Ah! gooooood to know.
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Reply from leoj99
Sep.29.2012
02:56AM EDT 
vertical line If you learn by yourself you are lucky if you have the understanding in this lifetime. You may need a hundred lifetimes more to make it.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.29.2012
07:21AM EDT 
vertical line LifetimeS? Who told you that? LOL?
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Reply from leoj99
Sep.29.2012
05:59PM EDT 
vertical line Zazen is very easy. You can do zazen without a teacher.
Actually doing zazen you don't need a teacher. Only some instructions from a senior student or the monitor will do. And he will just correct your posture in a few months and thats it. Your good to go.

Zen is like a deep blue sea where there are so many sharks.
If you want to cross it you have the freedom to do many options.
You may cross it riding a ship and no danger is coming. You may cross it with a boat and a little bit of danger.

But if you want to swim then certain you need a guide to protect you from the sharks because you want to wet yourself, you want to immerse yourself in water. You want get wet and challenge the dangers and only a good teacher can put you safe.

Riding a boat or ship is like just reading about zen and philosophizing. If you are contented with that its all good..
and doing zazen here and there and bingo.


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Reply from Joe Chip
Sep.30.2012
06:44AM EDT 
vertical line Everything you have heard, everything you have read, returns to your mind as if you were a stone sinking to the bottom of the ocean.

When you know yourself, even the sharks will raise you.
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Reply from esoteric
Sep.30.2012
01:27PM EDT 
vertical line There is no such thing as practicing alone. And...all practice is practicing alone.

So, you know...I just do what I need to do, and pay attention.

The world is my sangha. Although I will admit, there can be some small comfort in hanging out with people who understand what you're doing. Like being a computer geek working with other computer geeks. But it can also be insular. And then there are those Zen masters who can really get in the way.

So, you know...I just do what I need to do, and pay attention.
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Reply from zenmanstan
Sep.30.2012
02:49PM EDT 
Email zenmanstan
vertical line i looked into the ocean at the sharks and said, I'm not afraid anymore.
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Reply from Woodsman
Sep.30.2012
03:09PM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line we heard you
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Reply from *CSEe*
Sep.30.2012
10:18PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Buddhism is about ' Practicing alone" , in your own will , your own journey of your choice in your own world . Is your own process to free you from yourself that never involve any one else , you are always alone . Thats my current understanding.

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from esoteric
Oct.01.2012
12:47AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Buddhism is about ' Practicing alone" , in your own will , your own journey of your choice in your own world . Is your own process to free you from yourself that never involve any one else , you are always alone . Thats my current understanding.

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Then why in the heck are you dragging us into your business??? You just involved other people by talking about it here!  ;-D
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Reply from *CSEe*
Oct.01.2012
02:13AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Buddhism is about ' Practicing alone" , in your own will , your own journey of your choice in your own world . Is your own process to free you from yourself that never involve any one else , you are always alone . Thats my current understanding.

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Then why in the heck are you dragging us into your business??? You just involved other people by talking about it here!  ;-D

"
.........

Then why in the heck are you dragging us into your business??? You just involved other people by talking about it here!  ;-D

If you feel I dragging you ,,,that is perhaps resulted from  your emotion not me . I am just here to learn for my self by seeking debate with others ....my reason is to challenge my opinion for me to move into greater understanding ...thasts my way to learn .

Thks

CSEe
"
.........

"
.........
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Reply from justin
Oct.01.2012
03:00AM EDT 
Email justin
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The lord Buddha continued:

"If any person were to say that the Buddha, in his teachings, has constantly referred to himself, to other selves, to living beings, or to a universal self, what do you think, would that person have understood my meaning?"

Subhuti replied, "No, blessed lord. That person would not have understood the meaning of your teachings. For when you refer to those things, you are not referring to their actual existence, you only use the words as figures of speech, as symbols. Only in that sense can words be used, for conceptions, ideas, limited truths, and spiritual truths have no more reality than have matter or phenomena."

Then the lord Buddha made his meaning even more emphatic by saying:

"Subhuti, when people begin their practice of seeking to attaining total Enlightenment, they ought to see, to perceive, to know, to understand, and to realize that all things and all spiritual truths are no-things, and, therefore, they ought not to conceive within their minds any arbitrary conceptions whatsoever."


If anyone says they are a Diamond Sutra master they havent understood the diamond sutra at all :)

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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.01.2012
09:39AM EDT 
vertical line Ok boss.
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Reply from so_teh
Oct.01.2012
11:19AM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line I'm sitting on the computer, now. As for sitting in Zazen, I've eased into many routine hours in the last several years without a teacher. The cool night seasons are upon us and I tend to spend less time outside and sitting is my balance between rest and motion. Purposeful effort in my practice is turning into spontaneous ritual.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.01.2012
12:08PM EDT 
vertical line I'm sitting on a dirty data cloud, of polluted energy.
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Reply from Avisitor
Oct.01.2012
12:28PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I'm sitting on a dirty data cloud, of polluted energy. "
.........

Crap or get off the grid.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.01.2012
12:31PM EDT 
vertical line It's not up for debate, so go sate with your date, mate.
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.01.2012
04:44PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

Buddhism is about ' Practicing alone" , in your own will , your own journey of your choice in your own world . Is your own process to free you from yourself that never involve any one else , you are always alone . Thats my current understanding.

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Then why in the heck are you dragging us into your business??? You just involved other people by talking about it here!  ;-D

"
.........

Then why in the heck are you dragging us into your business??? You just involved other people by talking about it here!  ;-D

If you feel I dragging you ,,,that is perhaps resulted from  your emotion not me . I am just here to learn for my self by seeking debate with others ....my reason is to challenge my opinion for me to move into greater understanding ...thasts my way to learn .

Thks

CSEe
"
.........

"
.........
"
.........

You misunderstand. Just pointing out that "learn for myself by seeking debate with others" is not "practicing alone." :-)
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.02.2012
06:55AM EDT 
vertical line Rrrrinternet - a doity doity real eatie.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Oct.02.2012
09:52AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

Buddhism is about ' Practicing alone" , in your own will , your own journey of your choice in your own world . Is your own process to free you from yourself that never involve any one else , you are always alone . Thats my current understanding.

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Then why in the heck are you dragging us into your business??? You just involved other people by talking about it here!  ;-D

"
.........

Then why in the heck are you dragging us into your business??? You just involved other people by talking about it here!  ;-D

If you feel I dragging you ,,,that is perhaps resulted from  your emotion not me . I am just here to learn for my self by seeking debate with others ....my reason is to challenge my opinion for me to move into greater understanding ...thasts my way to learn .

Thks

CSEe
"
.........

"
......... "
.........

You misunderstand. Just pointing out that "learn for myself by seeking debate with others" is not "practicing alone." :-)
"

"
.........
"
.........

You misunderstand. Just pointing out that "learn for myself by seeking debate with others" is not "practicing alone." :-)
"

Still is practicing alone provided you understand the purpose of debating .....is always your choice to accept or to choose .........

Thks

CSEe
.........

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Reply from Avisitor
Oct.02.2012
10:50AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Debate is not learning. Debate is arguing your point and repeating yourself until the other guy gives in.
If you want to learn then shut up and read the four noble truths and start a rigorous practice of Zazen with a teacher. No debate. Just follow instructions. No thinking, no fooling. Dogen said practice is the way. Bodhidharma said the way is by study and practice. Not one with out the other.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Oct.02.2012
12:44PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Quote: "Debate is not learning. Debate is arguing your point and repeating yourself until the other guy gives in.
If you want to learn then shut up and read the four noble truths and start a rigorous practice of Zazen with a teacher. No debate. Just follow instructions. No thinking, no fooling. Dogen said practice is the way. Bodhidharma said the way is by study and practice. Not one with out the other.
"
.........

That perhaps is your perception on debating........but as for me , I am fully aware of my intention of debating is always to challenge own opinion and by others opinion / respond I could explore further into my common sense and move into greater understanding ...NEVER have any tiny intention to defend or to  influence others into my thought . I always seek for dis-agreement by others NEVER agreement as I could learn more by dis-agreement . Dear Avisitor , perhaps you are same as hundreds of "teacher" that communicated with me ...just want me to follow you but never interest to debate . Dear Sir , I am sincere to learn even I could be a monk if I could find any common sense of it ..........why until now I cant find any single ' teacher" that willing to debate with me ? Be fair to me.

Thks

CSEe 

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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.02.2012
01:17PM EDT 
vertical line You bought that. You might like ... to pollute each other's inbox.
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Reply from Avisitor
Oct.02.2012
03:56PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Debate is not learning. Debate is arguing your point and repeating yourself until the other guy gives in.
If you want to learn then shut up and read the four noble truths and start a rigorous practice of Zazen with a teacher. No debate. Just follow instructions. No thinking, no fooling. Dogen said practice is the way. Bodhidharma said the way is by study and practice. Not one with out the other.
"
.........

That perhaps is your perception on debating........but as for me , I am fully aware of my intention of debating is always to challenge own opinion and by others opinion / respond I could explore further into my common sense and move into greater understanding ...NEVER have any tiny intention to defend or to  influence others into my thought . I always seek for dis-agreement by others NEVER agreement as I could learn more by dis-agreement . Dear Avisitor , perhaps you are same as hundreds of "teacher" that communicated with me ...just want me to follow you but never interest to debate . Dear Sir , I am sincere to learn even I could be a monk if I could find any common sense of it ..........why until now I cant find any single ' teacher" that willing to debate with me ? Be fair to me.

Thks

CSEe 

"
.........
You don't challenge your own opinion. You keep restating it. You keep repeating your beliefs. You have the choice to stop what you're doing now and go learn the truth of your very nature. Or, you can keep conceptualizing and never know more than the idea of what Buddhism is really about. Experience ... not thoughts. Actions ... not regurgitating your own ideas again and again.

There is nothing left for you but to buy you plot of land where you will rest forever ....
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Reply from *CSEe*
Oct.02.2012
07:42PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Dear Avisitor . you said ...I quote " You don't challenge your own opinion. You keep restating it. You keep repeating your beliefs. You have the choice to stop what you're doing now and go learn the truth of your very nature. Or, you can keep conceptualizing and never know more than the idea of what Buddhism is really about. Experience ... not thoughts. Actions ... not regurgitating your own ideas again and again.

There is nothing left for you but to buy you plot of land where you will rest forever ...." un-quote

Why cant you understand in every discussion whether to share views or to reply others posting , I explore myself . Find it in my self , question my understanding ...thats challenging........Dear Avisitor that is why I always said " in my current understanding"..........you are asking me to follow others without question it .....asking me to give up myself for no reason ......thats funny my friend .So tell me what is your perception of Buddhism ........................I am very sure you have your " faith" on your understanding of Buddhism so why are you avoiding to share with me , debate on it ? I never attached to any of my understanding or have any faith in anything ...even myself . Dear friend , again lets debate .............

Thks

CSEe 

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Reply from Avisitor
Oct.03.2012
04:33AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "

Dear Avisitor . you said ...I quote " You don't challenge your own opinion. You keep restating it. You keep repeating your beliefs. You have the choice to stop what you're doing now and go learn the truth of your very nature. Or, you can keep conceptualizing and never know more than the idea of what Buddhism is really about. Experience ... not thoughts. Actions ... not regurgitating your own ideas again and again.

There is nothing left for you but to buy you plot of land where you will rest forever ...." un-quote

Why cant you understand in every discussion whether to share views or to reply others posting , I explore myself . Find it in my self , question my understanding ...thats challenging........Dear Avisitor that is why I always said " in my current understanding"..........you are asking me to follow others without question it .....asking me to give up myself for no reason ......thats funny my friend .So tell me what is your perception of Buddhism ........................I am very sure you have your " faith" on your understanding of Buddhism so why are you avoiding to share with me , debate on it ? I never attached to any of my understanding or have any faith in anything ...even myself . Dear friend , again lets debate .............

Thks

CSEe 

"
.........

The choice is yours to change your ways and learn the truth of Buddhism.

Here is what I know .. challenge it if you want ... but don't ask for more.
Buddhism is about practice and experiencing the truth for yourself.
No amount of intellectualizing will ever bring about the awakening you seek.
No amount of knowledge will ever bring the freedom from yourself that you desire.
If or when you have practiced enough to have space for the truth then learning about Buddhism will flow naturally.
Understanding Buddhism will come from the experience you have during practice.

That is it. Without practice, understanding Buddhism is like trying to describe how water taste. You can not do it unless the other person has tasted it also. There is no more to Buddhism. Conceptualizing will never bring you to know the taste of water.
Go drink for yourself.

I do not ask you to follow me. I do not ask you to learn from me. All I ask is that you stop regurgitating your non-sense. It does no one any good to hear what has already been spoken a hundred times before.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Oct.03.2012
10:17AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Dear Avisitor , you said " Buddhism is about practice and experiencing the truth for yourself."Un-quote .

Practice ? what kind ? Living the life is the form of practice in Buddhism ...meditation etc is just a tiny little part of it .........What is  Truth dear Avisitor ? How can you know is truth ? By knowledge ? .......in my current opinion ,there is NO truth or FALSE in Buddhism as Buddhism being the process to free the polluted energy is the ONLY truth .......understanding the concept of Buddhism without any attachment on emotions ..with continue exploration to further understanding , accepting all being  is a source of learning to understand own self is Buddhism and in my current understanding is the ONLY TRUTH.

Yo u said "No amount of intellectualizing will ever bring about the awakening you seek." un-quote

Yes agreed as knowledge is just a tiny part of it ...Buddhism is all about own will , own journey .


You said " No amount of knowledge will ever bring the freedom from yourself that you desire." un-quote .

In my current understanding of Buddhism , Freedom from self is NOT out of a desire or emotions but is resulted from SELF ACCEPTANCE by OWN REALIZATION.

You said "If or when you have practiced enough to have space for the truth then learning about Buddhism will flow naturally." un-quote

In my current understanding ,Buddhism is NOT created by advance knowledge or practice , even Dalai Lama whom said to be " The holiness" to my understanding in Buddhism is of SAME and EQUAL with any human ....OSAMA or OBAMA . Truth in Buddhism is NOT something we could search or have or accept....truth is THE PROCESS to free from polluted energy ...TRUTH is Buddhism .

You said "Understanding Buddhism will come from the experience you have during practice." un-quote

I currently cant find any common sense to agree with you on this perhaps not now . Understanding Buddhism to me is very easy as Mr Siddharta had introduced to mankind thousand of years ago.....his two words is more than enough to explain Buddhism ...that is " AWAKE and EMPTINESS "  Practice in Buddhism is living in every day life by BEING AWAKE in each moment in life...thats the practice I currently know in Buddhism .

You said " That is it. Without practice, understanding Buddhism is like trying to describe how water taste. You can not do it unless the other person has tasted it also. There is no more to Buddhism. Conceptualizing will never bring you to know the taste of water.
Go drink for yourself." Un-quote .

Yes but Buddhism to me is BEYOND taste the water...is why you have the desire to taste the water ...Buddhism is learning all emotions , desire NOT just experienced it but understand the cause of it ....leading to freedom of it .

You said "

I do not ask you to follow me. I do not ask you to learn from me. All I ask is that you stop regurgitating your non-sense. It does no one any good to hear what has already been spoken a hundred times before.Un-quote .

You always is my teacher Avisitor .........in Buddhism is NOT to pure water into others cup but to understand why you need to pure ...........I will NEVER be that confident to teach anyone including a baby regards to Buddhism ....Sorry if I make you boring but sincerely you makes my day by your interest in chat with me ....if can why cant we debate .....on your understanding against mine .

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from Avisitor
Oct.03.2012
01:18PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line There is no more.
You have all that I know.
It can take you a lifetime to understand or it can be but an instant.

I have work to do and no more time to waste.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Oct.03.2012
07:37PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Quote: "There is no more.
You have all that I know.
It can take you a lifetime to understand or it can be but an instant.

I have work to do and no more time to waste.
"
.........

Same here my friend , I have bills to pay lots of it ........but to me understanding Buddhism is major part of life compare to finding money . Understanding Buddhism will lead to understanding life , self , the purpose of life , what is self and the end of our existant .............is that more important than finding money to fill our desire ?

I am very eager to debate Buddhism becouse I realize that by understand more on Buddhism , one could be less attached to fear , fear on sickness or death ....if I could be free of it ...I could share it with my daughter and that will be the best present from a father ....right now I even fear to go and see a doctor becouse I am still full of polluted energy .............you are always welcome to discuss with me Avisitor any time whenever we free .

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from Avisitor
Oct.04.2012
04:01AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I am very eager to debate Buddhism becouse I realize that by understand more on Buddhism , one could be less attached to fear , fear on sickness or death ....if I could be free of it ...I could share it with my daughter and that will be the best present from a father ....right now I even fear to go and see a doctor becouse I am still full of polluted energy .............you are always welcome to discuss with me Avisitor any time whenever we free .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

You can never have any realization by debate.
You are born with a mind full of preconditions that will not let go its grip.
Unless you practice meditation, you can never provide the conditions for you to find the freedom that you wish for.
There is no need for further discussion.

Go share the rest of your life with your family and friends.
They are all you have left in this world.
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Reply from starduster
Oct.04.2012
04:29AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "I am very eager to debate Buddhism becouse I realize that by understand more on Buddhism , one could be less attached to fear , fear on sickness or death ....if I could be free of it ...I could share it with my daughter and that will be the best present from a father ....right now I even fear to go and see a doctor becouse I am still full of polluted energy .............you are always welcome to discuss with me Avisitor any time whenever we free .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

You can never have any realization by debate.
You are born with a mind full of preconditions that will not let go its grip.
Unless you practice meditation, you can never provide the conditions for you to find the freedom that you wish for.
There is no need for further discussion.

Go share the rest of your life with your family and friends.
They are all you have left in this world.
"
.........

"
.........

You can never have any realization by debate.
You are born with a mind full of preconditions that will not let go its grip.
Unless you practice meditation, you can never provide the conditions for you to find the freedom that you wish for.
There is no need for further discussion.

Go share the rest of your life with your family and friends.
They are all you have left in this world.
"
.........

Koans are designed to wear down the logical mind.

Debating the intangible probably has the same affect.

The intellect is like ice on the pond, nothing can surface until it is melted.

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Reply from Avisitor
Oct.05.2012
08:48AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Koans are designed to wear down the logical mind.

Debating the intangible probably has the same affect.

The intellect is like ice on the pond, nothing can surface until it is melted.

"
.........

Debating increases the thoughts of a logical mind.
Absolutely not the same thing. And not the same effect.
However if he were to debate himself to the point where logic can not go
then he might have a chance to be the master debater ... hahaha
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.05.2012
08:52AM EDT 
vertical line Debate without rancour ... hahaha
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Reply from *CSEe*
Oct.05.2012
12:10PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Dear Avisitor thanks for reply again , you said " You can never have any realization by debate.' Un-quote.

Yes agreed , self realization can never be planned , learned or practice . Self realization is reflection of all the expreciences , knowledge , awareness , emotions , internal , external factor that so effective to push one mind beyond it's acceptance . Knowledge alone cannot be the cause but perhaps can be a factor .......there was a story of a king named Asoka who was always in war ....one day he realized war had caused so many death and his self realization had lead him to major changes ....so before the factor he knew that in war there will be so many death but still he going for war but there was a factor that pushed him above his normal acceptance that lead him to his self realization  ...... 

You said " You are born with a mind full of preconditions that will not let go its grip.
Unless you practice meditation, you can never provide the conditions for you to find the freedom that you wish for.
There is no need for further discussion." Un-quote

Dear Avisitor ......you seems so close to me right now , we just like family ........you understand me since birth ?

Meditation in my current understanding is one of the trillions ways to self discovery ......and in my opinion there are many ways of meditation . One can meditate while walking , driving , sitting under a tree or on top of a tree or even sitting on a toilet bowl ........but in my current understanding before meditate one should free himself from knowledge of ' who they are " , free from any faith , free of believing on himself , accepting all being is of same and equal....therefore only with that level of freedom one could discover " what he is" instead of imagine who should he be .......

You said " Go share the rest of your life with your family and friends.
They are all you have left in this world." Un-quote

That is something I wish to free of not to further attached . Love is suffering my friend ...In buddhism they are never connected or related to me ...they just a being in their own purification process just like you or any human , any living or non-living ........in Buddhism I NEVER have them ,never owned them , even my body is never mind ...the desire to own them , the love for them is part of the polluted energy ......in Buddhism I will free of all desire including the desire to exist.........

and there is no " this world".....is only " own world"...

Thks CSEe

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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.05.2012
01:07PM EDT 
vertical line Wrong.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Oct.05.2012
01:12PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Quote: "Wrong."
.........

So what is the diiference to " right" ?

thks

CSEe

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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.05.2012
01:15PM EDT 
vertical line You're the difference.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Oct.05.2012
01:33PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Quote: "You're the difference. "
.........

I have seen many short word as " &apos" ..what is that means ?

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.05.2012
01:43PM EDT 
vertical line Yeah, that's exactly like the kind of thing it means.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Oct.05.2012
01:51PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Quote: "Yeah, that's exactly like the kind of thing it means."
.........

Please explain Joe , I cant understand the sign.

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from football
Oct.05.2012
04:26PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line He is a master.He dont explain he just does.
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Reply from Avisitor
Oct.05.2012
04:45PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "You're the difference. "

.........

I have seen many short word as " &apos" ..what is that means ?

Thks

CSEe

"
.........
The original text is

You're the difference

Did you notice the apostrophe???
The little thing between the u and r??
That is what "&apos" means.
Some text writers can't handle apostrophes and sub that in it.
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Reply from starduster
Oct.06.2012
05:35AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "You're the difference. "

.........

I have seen many short word as " &apos" ..what is that means ?

Thks

CSEe

"
.........
The original text is

You're the difference

Did you notice the apostrophe???
The little thing between the u and r??
That is what "&apos" means.
Some text writers can't handle apostrophes and sub that in it.
"
.........

"
.........
The original text is

You're the difference

Did you notice the apostrophe???
The little thing between the u and r??
That is what "&apos" means.
Some text writers can't handle apostrophes and sub that in it.
"
.........

Thats why I dont use apostrophes, and for quotes use * instead.

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Reply from Avisitor
Oct.13.2012
09:28AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I have heard this consistently said that without a teacher you are not really practicing.

However;

What Zen practices points directly to something that is innately who we are, something natural, and simple.

Yet,

I have seen many who seem to understand that which I just said yet create overly thought out conceptual ideas of what Zen is. I am guilty of this myself. And often while in a class, in meditation, or discussing these things online. I discover these occlusions.

I would say it is not possible to practice Zen Buddhism by yourself as Zen Buddhism is Mahayana and immediately involves practice for more than just yourself. Yet if you look up Zen, you will find there are at minimum five types of Zen described. One type involves practicing on your own and another is practicing without any philosophical basis whatsoever, be it religious or conceptual.

So the teacher who says it is not possible to practice Zen by themselves, is clinging to their own paradigm. Something I find which occurs a bit much in Zen community, they cling to their concepts, as we all do. It is why we try to wake up to see where these clinging are.

If a spiritual path is not innate, if it is not something that would arise on it's own even after the fall of civilization, then i it is a construct. The Zen that can not be practiced by yourself, is a construct. I would allow these teachers to cling to their constructs but i would also advise, they have much to share, and much to help you not get lost in.

Sincerly

R
"
.........
I agree with much of what you said.
It is a teacher who often leads one to the river.
Then, it is up to one to make the final push to drink the waters.
Later, the crossing will bring you where one wanted to go ...
But, the journey is half the fun ... hahaha
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.13.2012
01:25PM EDT 
vertical line Back where you started.
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Reply from leoj99
Oct.13.2012
03:35PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "I have heard this consistently said that without a teacher you are not really practicing.

However;

What Zen practices points directly to something that is innately who we are, something natural, and simple.

Yet,

I have seen many who seem to understand that which I just said yet create overly thought out conceptual ideas of what Zen is. I am guilty of this myself. And often while in a class, in meditation, or discussing these things online. I discover these occlusions.

I would say it is not possible to practice Zen Buddhism by yourself as Zen Buddhism is Mahayana and immediately involves practice for more than just yourself. Yet if you look up Zen, you will find there are at minimum five types of Zen described. One type involves practicing on your own and another is practicing without any philosophical basis whatsoever, be it religious or conceptual.

So the teacher who says it is not possible to practice Zen by themselves, is clinging to their own paradigm. Something I find which occurs a bit much in Zen community, they cling to their concepts, as we all do. It is why we try to wake up to see where these clinging are.

If a spiritual path is not innate, if it is not something that would arise on it's own even after the fall of civilization, then i it is a construct. The Zen that can not be practiced by yourself, is a construct. I would allow these teachers to cling to their constructs but i would also advise, they have much to share, and much to help you not get lost in.

Sincerly

R
"
.........
I agree with much of what you said.
It is a teacher who often leads one to the river.
Then, it is up to one to make the final push to drink the waters.
Later, the crossing will bring you where one wanted to go ...
But, the journey is half the fun ... hahaha
"
.........

So have you been led to the river yourself...lol
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.13.2012
04:15PM EDT 
vertical line This is the sea.
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Reply from nibble
Oct.13.2012
06:51PM EDT 
vertical line I am a mountain
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Reply from football
Oct.13.2012
07:38PM EDT 
Email football
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try acoustic...

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=1Dr6uTA-QKg

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Reply from Avisitor
Oct.14.2012
10:44AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I agree with much of what you said.
It is a teacher who often leads one to the river.
Then, it is up to one to make the final push to drink the waters.
Later, the crossing will bring you where one wanted to go ...
But, the journey is half the fun ... hahaha
"
.........

So have you been led to the river yourself...lol
"
.........

I extend an open hand to you.

Do you flinch like I would smack you?
Or do you hold out your hand?

Understand that your mind has already made up .. it's influence to see my hand as something it is not. When you understand, you will eat when you are hungry and sleep when you are tired.
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Reply from palelotus
Oct.14.2012
02:13PM EDT 
vertical line I've got to say, I agree with the idea of debating as a way to further ones knowledge. Though there is a fine line between debating for the sake of learning, and debating for the sake of being, "right."

After all, there are many paths leading to the peak. Just because you cannot see past the thick brush doesn't mean it won't also lead to the same peak.
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.14.2012
04:29PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "I've got to say, I agree with the idea of debating as a way to further ones knowledge. Though there is a fine line between debating for the sake of learning, and debating for the sake of being, "right."

After all, there are many paths leading to the peak. Just because you cannot see past the thick brush doesn't mean it won't also lead to the same peak.
"
.........

What peak?
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.14.2012
04:30PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "I agree with much of what you said.
It is a teacher who often leads one to the river.
Then, it is up to one to make the final push to drink the waters.
Later, the crossing will bring you where one wanted to go ...
But, the journey is half the fun ... hahaha
"
.........

So have you been led to the river yourself...lol
"
.........

I extend an open hand to you.

Do you flinch like I would smack you?
Or do you hold out your hand?

Understand that your mind has already made up .. it's influence to see my hand as something it is not. When you understand, you will eat when you are hungry and sleep when you are tired.
"
.........

What hand?
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Reply from palelotus
Oct.14.2012
04:42PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "I've got to say, I agree with the idea of debating as a way to further ones knowledge. Though there is a fine line between debating for the sake of learning, and debating for the sake of being, "right."

After all, there are many paths leading to the peak. Just because you cannot see past the thick brush doesn't mean it won't also lead to the same peak.
"
.........

What peak?
"
.........

Any peak.
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.14.2012
04:46PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "I've got to say, I agree with the idea of debating as a way to further ones knowledge. Though there is a fine line between debating for the sake of learning, and debating for the sake of being, "right."

After all, there are many paths leading to the peak. Just because you cannot see past the thick brush doesn't mean it won't also lead to the same peak.
"
.........

What peak?
"
.........

Any peak.
"
.........

Peak of what?
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Reply from Avisitor
Oct.14.2012
05:03PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I've got to say, I agree with the idea of debating as a way to further ones knowledge. Though there is a fine line between debating for the sake of learning, and debating for the sake of being, "right."

After all, there are many paths leading to the peak. Just because you cannot see past the thick brush doesn't mean it won't also lead to the same peak.
"
.........
Or the bush can hide a precipice.
Thanks for the words of encouragement.
I don't believe anyone here is debating to just be right.
But, each person speaks from where they are in their practice or path.
Right or wrong, it is where we are ... hahaha
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Reply from starduster
Oct.15.2012
04:51AM EDT 
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Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "I've got to say, I agree with the idea of debating as a way to further ones knowledge. Though there is a fine line between debating for the sake of learning, and debating for the sake of being, "right."

After all, there are many paths leading to the peak. Just because you cannot see past the thick brush doesn't mean it won't also lead to the same peak.
"
.........

What peak?
"
.........

Any peak.
"
.........

Peak of what?

.........

Your own peak.  You havent seen it yet so you cant relate.

Its a stupid mind game to make people qualify everything they say.

Like *spoon banging*.  Children in high chairs bang their spoons as one of their first causitive events.  Theyve found out they can *make* a noise.  Then when adults get irritated thats even more causitive, so they bang their spoons even louder.

Maybe a short detour into a study of psychology might help, thumb sucker.  Go sit at the childrens table. 

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Reply from palelotus
Oct.15.2012
05:43AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "I've got to say, I agree with the idea of debating as a way to further ones knowledge. Though there is a fine line between debating for the sake of learning, and debating for the sake of being, "right."

After all, there are many paths leading to the peak. Just because you cannot see past the thick brush doesn't mean it won't also lead to the same peak.
"
.........
Or the bush can hide a precipice.
Thanks for the words of encouragement.
I don't believe anyone here is debating to just be right.
But, each person speaks from where they are in their practice or path.
Right or wrong, it is where we are ... hahaha
"
.........

Haha, very well put. But that's why you take your chosen path as vigilantly as possible and always been open to take other paths. I sure wouldn't want to run head first over a cliff. xD

Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "I've got to say, I agree with the idea of debating as a way to further ones knowledge. Though there is a fine line between debating for the sake of learning, and debating for the sake of being, "right."

After all, there are many paths leading to the peak. Just because you cannot see past the thick brush doesn't mean it won't also lead to the same peak.
"
.........

What peak?
"
.........

Any peak.
"
.........

Peak of what?
"
.........

Personally, for me it's the peak of mindfulness. I suppose it's different for everybody.
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Reply from palelotus
Oct.15.2012
05:44AM EDT 
vertical line Whoops, I messed up with the quote. It's way too late!
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.15.2012
08:56AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "I've got to say, I agree with the idea of debating as a way to further ones knowledge. Though there is a fine line between debating for the sake of learning, and debating for the sake of being, "right."

After all, there are many paths leading to the peak. Just because you cannot see past the thick brush doesn't mean it won't also lead to the same peak.
"
.........

What peak?
"
.........

Any peak.
"
.........

Peak of what?

.........

Your own peak.  You havent seen it yet so you cant relate.

Its a stupid mind game to make people qualify everything they say.

Like *spoon banging*.  Children in high chairs bang their spoons as one of their first causitive events.  Theyve found out they can *make* a noise.  Then when adults get irritated thats even more causitive, so they bang their spoons even louder.

Maybe a short detour into a study of psychology might help, thumb sucker.  Go sit at the childrens table. 

"
.........

Starduster's tantrum.
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.15.2012
08:58AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "I've got to say, I agree with the idea of debating as a way to further ones knowledge. Though there is a fine line between debating for the sake of learning, and debating for the sake of being, "right."

After all, there are many paths leading to the peak. Just because you cannot see past the thick brush doesn't mean it won't also lead to the same peak.
"
.........
Or the bush can hide a precipice.
Thanks for the words of encouragement.
I don't believe anyone here is debating to just be right.
But, each person speaks from where they are in their practice or path.
Right or wrong, it is where we are ... hahaha
"
.........

Haha, very well put. But that's why you take your chosen path as vigilantly as possible and always been open to take other paths. I sure wouldn't want to run head first over a cliff. xD


.........

There is only one path. Watch your step.
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.15.2012
09:01AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "I've got to say, I agree with the idea of debating as a way to further ones knowledge. Though there is a fine line between debating for the sake of learning, and debating for the sake of being, "right."

After all, there are many paths leading to the peak. Just because you cannot see past the thick brush doesn't mean it won't also lead to the same peak.
"
.........

What peak?
"
.........

Any peak.
"
.........

Peak of what?
"
.........

Personally, for me it's the peak of mindfulness. I suppose it's different for everybody.
"
.........

Only one path to that peak, too. Watch your step.
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Reply from football
Oct.15.2012
09:28AM EDT 
Email football
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Quote: "There is only one path. Watch your step"
.........

Wrong.

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Reply from football
Oct.15.2012
09:29AM EDT 
Email football
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Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "I've got to say, I agree with the idea of debating as a way to further ones knowledge. Though there is a fine line between debating for the sake of learning, and debating for the sake of being, "right."

After all, there are many paths leading to the peak. Just because you cannot see past the thick brush doesn't mean it won't also lead to the same peak.
"
.........

What peak?
"
.........

Any peak.
"
.........

Peak of what?
"
.........

Personally, for me it's the peak of mindfulness. I suppose it's different for everybody.
"
.........

Only one path to that peak, too. Watch your step.
"
.........

Right.

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Reply from palelotus
Oct.15.2012
02:36PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "I've got to say, I agree with the idea of debating as a way to further ones knowledge. Though there is a fine line between debating for the sake of learning, and debating for the sake of being, "right."

After all, there are many paths leading to the peak. Just because you cannot see past the thick brush doesn't mean it won't also lead to the same peak.
"
.........
Or the bush can hide a precipice.
Thanks for the words of encouragement.
I don't believe anyone here is debating to just be right.
But, each person speaks from where they are in their practice or path.
Right or wrong, it is where we are ... hahaha
"
.........

Haha, very well put. But that's why you take your chosen path as vigilantly as possible and always been open to take other paths. I sure wouldn't want to run head first over a cliff. xD


.........

There is only one path. Watch your step.
"
.........

What is the only path?
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Reply from nibble
Oct.15.2012
05:17PM EDT 
vertical line cultivating mindfulness?
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.15.2012
10:38PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "I've got to say, I agree with the idea of debating as a way to further ones knowledge. Though there is a fine line between debating for the sake of learning, and debating for the sake of being, "right."

After all, there are many paths leading to the peak. Just because you cannot see past the thick brush doesn't mean it won't also lead to the same peak.
"
.........
Or the bush can hide a precipice.
Thanks for the words of encouragement.
I don't believe anyone here is debating to just be right.
But, each person speaks from where they are in their practice or path.
Right or wrong, it is where we are ... hahaha
"
.........

Haha, very well put. But that's why you take your chosen path as vigilantly as possible and always been open to take other paths. I sure wouldn't want to run head first over a cliff. xD


.........

There is only one path. Watch your step.
"
.........

What is the only path?
"
.........

Are your eyes open?
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Reply from starduster
Oct.16.2012
05:25AM EDT 
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Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "I've got to say, I agree with the idea of debating as a way to further ones knowledge. Though there is a fine line between debating for the sake of learning, and debating for the sake of being, "right."

After all, there are many paths leading to the peak. Just because you cannot see past the thick brush doesn't mean it won't also lead to the same peak.
"
.........
Or the bush can hide a precipice.
Thanks for the words of encouragement.
I don't believe anyone here is debating to just be right.
But, each person speaks from where they are in their practice or path.
Right or wrong, it is where we are ... hahaha
"
.........

Haha, very well put. But that's why you take your chosen path as vigilantly as possible and always been open to take other paths. I sure wouldn't want to run head first over a cliff. xD


.........

There is only one path. Watch your step.
"
.........

What is the only path?
"
.........

Are your eyes open?
"
.........

Must be Christianity, since Jesus said he was the Truth, the light, and the way, and that no one could get to the kingdom of Heaven without him.  Why then would anyone believe that any other path could lead to righteousness ??

I left the Christian Church at 14, in 1968, and didnt become awakened until 1990, after changing paths I dont know how many times along the way.  Then I could see that they are all good paths, including Christianity.

There is only one path, one true path, for you, and that is whichever you choose.  You just have to trust your own inner Self to get you where you are going, which is what You, your Self, decided in the first place.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.16.2012
07:51AM EDT 
vertical line The way, the truth and the life.

When you have transcended the difference between perceiver and perception.
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Reply from football
Oct.16.2012
09:01AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line Finally, you have found your place (position)(location) , Joe.
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Reply from Chryseis
Oct.17.2012
08:11AM EDT 
vertical line dissonant harmonies
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.17.2012
08:48AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "I've got to say, I agree with the idea of debating as a way to further ones knowledge. Though there is a fine line between debating for the sake of learning, and debating for the sake of being, "right."

After all, there are many paths leading to the peak. Just because you cannot see past the thick brush doesn't mean it won't also lead to the same peak.
"
.........
Or the bush can hide a precipice.
Thanks for the words of encouragement.
I don't believe anyone here is debating to just be right.
But, each person speaks from where they are in their practice or path.
Right or wrong, it is where we are ... hahaha
"
.........

Haha, very well put. But that's why you take your chosen path as vigilantly as possible and always been open to take other paths. I sure wouldn't want to run head first over a cliff. xD


.........

There is only one path. Watch your step.
"
.........

What is the only path?
"
.........

Are your eyes open?
"
.........

Must be Christianity, since Jesus said he was the Truth, the light, and the way, and that no one could get to the kingdom of Heaven without him.  Why then would anyone believe that any other path could lead to righteousness ??

I left the Christian Church at 14, in 1968, and didnt become awakened until 1990, after changing paths I dont know how many times along the way.  Then I could see that they are all good paths, including Christianity.

There is only one path, one true path, for you, and that is whichever you choose.  You just have to trust your own inner Self to get you where you are going, which is what You, your Self, decided in the first place.

"
.........

Path to what?
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.17.2012
10:01AM EDT 
vertical line To the collage of events.
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Reply from Avisitor
Oct.17.2012
03:51PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line To the college of events
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Reply from coedabgf
Oct.17.2012
06:34PM EDT 
Email coedabgf
vertical line where does love come from?

coeda.
son of the LIVING TRUTH (THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE)
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.17.2012
08:01PM EDT 
vertical line I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life.
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.17.2012
08:18PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "where does love come from?

coeda.
son of the LIVING TRUTH (THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE)
"
.........

Where do you come from?
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Reply from so_teh
Oct.17.2012
08:48PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line The summer has gone, the fall has ended, the winter has thawed, the spring has sprung, the abyss has cleared, I am the way the truth the life, this is because, that is.
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.17.2012
09:44PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "The summer has gone, the fall has ended, the winter has thawed, the spring has sprung, the abyss has cleared, I am the way the truth the life, this is because, that is."
.........

I got a job offer today. And I'm looking for a house with roommates. How are you doing, sit_teh?
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.18.2012
06:47AM EDT 
vertical line Animal, mineral, physical, spiritual - I'm the [one] room, board and 3 meals a day you need.
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Reply from Avisitor
Oct.18.2012
08:22AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "where does love come from?

coeda.
son of the LIVING TRUTH (THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE)
"
.........
Look with in yourself and you will see where it all comes from ... hahaha
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Reply from leoj99
Oct.19.2012
02:16AM EDT 
vertical line Well it is hard enough to get kensho with a teacher, how much more if you are practicing alone.... sooner or later you may even get bored with zazen.

I have not heard one who experienced kensho by practicing alone...
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.19.2012
06:11AM EDT 
vertical line Possibly because they don't talk to people like you about zen, zazen and stuff.
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Reply from Avisitor
Oct.19.2012
03:24PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Well it is hard enough to get kensho with a teacher, how much more if you are practicing alone.... sooner or later you may even get bored with zazen.

I have not heard one who experienced kensho by practicing alone...
"
.........
And who would tell you??
Especially if they practice alone??

But, you have heard of at least one ... his name Gotama ... Buddha ... hahaha
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.19.2012
08:48PM EDT 
vertical line Kensho, satori, awakening, and enlightenment cannot be self-diagnosed. If someone tells you they have attained these things, then they haven't.
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Reply from starduster
Oct.20.2012
12:47AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote:   Path to what?

Kensho, satori, awakening, and enlightenment cannot be self-diagnosed. If someone tells you they have attained these things, then they havent.
.........

Dont you think you should wait until you have attained something before you tell other people what to think about these things ?

Or are you saying that you have, in which case how does this square with your own advice ? 

So, by your own statement, youre eithe talking out of your ass about things you dont understand, or you are self-diagnosing your own enlightenment.  Which is it ?

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Reply from starduster
Oct.20.2012
12:59AM EDT 
vertical line

Awakening is not a matter of pride.  Its not an achievement, which is why the term *attainment* is commonly used.

Some say it is a gift, or a blessing.  If so, can you give a gift to yourself ?  I suppose so, in a manner of speaking, although not technically.

Self-diagnosis ?  Doesnt much matter.  Awakening leaves no doubt because there is nothing left to doubt, absolutely nothing.  And whether anyone else believes you are awakened or not is relatively meaningless, except perhaps to them.

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Reply from esoteric
Oct.20.2012
11:07AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote:   Path to what?

Kensho, satori, awakening, and enlightenment cannot be self-diagnosed. If someone tells you they have attained these things, then they havent.
.........

Dont you think you should wait until you have attained something before you tell other people what to think about these things ?

Or are you saying that you have, in which case how does this square with your own advice ? 

So, by your own statement, youre eithe talking out of your ass about things you dont understand, or you are self-diagnosing your own enlightenment.  Which is it ?

"
.........

Have a cup of coffee, Don.
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.20.2012
11:09AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Awakening is not a matter of pride.  Its not an achievement, which is why the term *attainment* is commonly used.

Some say it is a gift, or a blessing.  If so, can you give a gift to yourself ?  I suppose so, in a manner of speaking, although not technically.

Self-diagnosis ?  Doesnt much matter.  Awakening leaves no doubt because there is nothing left to doubt, absolutely nothing.  And whether anyone else believes you are awakened or not is relatively meaningless, except perhaps to them.

"
.........

Awakening just means "not asleep any more." It's nothing special. It happens to most people in the world every day.

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Reply from leoj99
Oct.20.2012
03:39PM EDT 
vertical line So how come no one is getting enlightened...lol
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Reply from leoj99
Oct.20.2012
03:41PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Awakening is not a matter of pride.  Its not an achievement, which is why the term *attainment* is commonly used.

Some say it is a gift, or a blessing.  If so, can you give a gift to yourself ?  I suppose so, in a manner of speaking, although not technically.

Self-diagnosis ?  Doesnt much matter.  Awakening leaves no doubt because there is nothing left to doubt, absolutely nothing.  And whether anyone else believes you are awakened or not is relatively meaningless, except perhaps to them.

"
.........

Awakening just means "not asleep any more." It's nothing special. It happens to most people in the world every day.
"

You mean you are already enlightened? How? ..lol
.........

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Reply from esoteric
Oct.20.2012
04:21PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

Awakening is not a matter of pride.  Its not an achievement, which is why the term *attainment* is commonly used.

Some say it is a gift, or a blessing.  If so, can you give a gift to yourself ?  I suppose so, in a manner of speaking, although not technically.

Self-diagnosis ?  Doesnt much matter.  Awakening leaves no doubt because there is nothing left to doubt, absolutely nothing.  And whether anyone else believes you are awakened or not is relatively meaningless, except perhaps to them.

"
.........

Awakening just means "not asleep any more." It's nothing special. It happens to most people in the world every day.
"

You mean you are already enlightened? How? ..lol
.........

"

.........

I don't know what you mean. My words just say what they say.
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Reply from justin
Oct.21.2012
03:52AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "So how come no one is getting enlightened...lol "
.........

cause it only exists in your mind
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.21.2012
07:32AM EDT 
vertical line You don't know I should wake up and read this.
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Reply from football
Oct.21.2012
07:44AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line :)
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