Quote: "So what do you suppose to accomplice by debating? "
.........

Just for my learning process .

Thks

CSEe

Quote: " their realization perhaps I could understand more .


just realise what it is you would realise.

then ask why, then who is realising.

yes , thats is buddhism but as human I am eager to find out their reasons .

Thks

CSEe
"
.........

Quote: "You are the teacher, your opinions are all over the Internet."
.........

i Never regard myself a " teacher " even to a new born child .

thks

CSEe

Quote: "CSEe comes from another forum. There, he also put up a "debate with teacher" topic.
But, in his topic, he would argue and protect his beliefs rather than learn anything new.
From his postings, I gathered that  .. he believes he knows more than even Buddha.
"
.........

dear Freind , perhaps I never the guy you descriped ......i am just a selfish guy planning for my death ..........I never protect any of my opinion and the reason I wish to debate is to challenge my opinion in view to move from it NEVER to defend it .

I hope you could see that .

Thks

CSEe

Quote: "Yes your opinions are all over and if u want to be my apprentice think again"
.........

I am always a student to you all same as to any animal , plant , micro-organism even to rock or the pen on your table .

why is that so dificult finding a " guru" to debate on Buddhism ?

Thks

CSEe

Quote: "U would need to learn much"

Please debate with me and I am always eager to learn from you .

Thks

CSEe.........

If anyone wish to debate Buddhism with me just for my own learning lesson you are very welcome to email me at fomains@gmail.com

Thks

CSEe

Perhaps I should explain more on myself in order to minimize mis-understanding .

Dear all , the reason and the only reason i wish to debate with any 'master" of Buddhism is SINCERELY to learn from them .........so far they just wanting to teach me with all kind of terminology , methods but NEVER interested to debate with me .

In short they just want me to follow them and I never had a chance to question them . In deed in my 4 years of involvement in internat , I had about 20 'guru" or person claim to be "master" or " teacher" in Buddhism studies communicated with me .....and with great respect I did have the chance to debate with them but SADLY most if not all of them break off with me after a while ...some even show their temper .

i even send email to all Master of buddhism studies that I can reach even " the great Dalai lama" many times but their respond is very disapointing .

All i hope is to debate with others on Buddhism as I am suffering in current awareness ...I need to move , advance into greater realization .

some of you guy perhaps know me from other website and I hope you guys stop having any ill feeling of me ......I am just a father that need to understand death so that i could share it with my daughter so that she will be less fear on death .........thats will be the best present from a father .

Lets be freind and have a great debate on our opinion.

Sincerely

Ee Chuan Seng (CSEe) , Malaysia

Quote: ""I am currently of the opinion that Buddhism CANT be taught by any one [...]for my own learning lesson."

...........

Here's one:
A calf sucks milk at the rate that his mother's heart beats. "
.........

I cant understand what you meant . and what is " apos" meaning .

Thks

CSEe

Dear Avisitor , I am sorry I cant remember whether we have any debate before or I had offended you in any way , if I have I am sorry , you seems to have many ill feeling on me .

Why is that hard for you to understand that I am here to learn ? Why cant you understand that I really have learned from others by debating ? Why cant you try to read my posting , try to understand it before making all baseless accusation ?

Why cant you discuss or debate with me sincerely and stop imagine who I am ?

I am currently of the opinion that Buddhism cant be taught BECAUSE Buddhism is a PROCESS that one understand / accept himself so since awareness of oneself cant be measured or compared therefore Buddhism is IMPOSSIBLE to be taught BUT ONLY be learned .

How can Dalai Lama know how much you understand yourself compare to how much he understand himself .........therefore how can Dalai Lama teach you Buddhism? Show me what makes dalai lama be so confident that he knows buddhism better than you and teach you ...that is what i wish to learn . Can you share your taught ?

Thks

CSEe

Quote: "Looks like you found your debate. Or maybe you didn't. I don't know. Beggars can't be choosers. Besides, if you don't like the answers you get, you can always look somewhere else. You might even show your anger before you go. "
.........

I am here to debate on Buddhism but seems many is more interested in debate about me .....thats is what puzzle me . I had look for all possible source to debate with anyone about Buddhism , even sending email to " Master" of Buddhism but they seems not interested or break away from discussing with me after a while . I do not ' show any anger" since I SO FAR never angry no matter how others wrote about me ........to me that is their choice , their learning process to understand their own emotions .

Thks

CSEe

Quote: "Well since this is a forum that seems much more tolerant than the other zen forums.. we could debate... errr.. discuss .. have a discussion maybe...lol

What do you like to discuss...?
"
.........

Hi , I choose the word " debate" over " discuss" is every time I said I wish to discuss others seems to force me into following their beliefs ...therefore I choose to debate , just to let them prepare I need to ask question ,. I wish to diascuss hopefully with anyone currently ' Teaching" Buddhism in monastry or any Buddhism school or any one commonly accepted as Buddhism Master like Dalai Lama of what makes them believe they could teach others Buddhism .........on what makes them confident to believe they know Buddhism better than others ? I hope you could share your thought .

Thks

CSEe

Quote: "Migrating coconuts. "
.........

Sorry I do not understand you.

Thks

CSEe

Quote: "Cse, every seems to be more interested in debating u, because the only way to learn is to look inward (this is possibly the only thing everyone agrees on) so therefore everyone is directing u inward. Nothing to learn here etc etc.
It is a propensity of people to discuss in this way.

Remember Buddha said 'i will tell u about the all-the all is contained in this body, all senses, all thoughts, all etc etc' u are the all so there no need to look outside u body. So when u ask for debate it suggests u are indeed looking outside u body :)

But if u begin a thread as do any of us, if u word it right it seems maybe a extension of u inner thoughts and would be accepted easier.

Do not stress just ask whatever questions u like and some all will discuss in their own way. And u misread my previous posts they were not aimed personally at u.

We all like to think we know a secret :) (but it the same one the other guy knows haha) "

Dear justin , what I meant was many more interested in discussing me , imagine who I am , putting words into my mouth etc instead of focusing on the topic of discussion .

Thks

CSEe
.........

The great sutra master Dok Sahn was very famous throughout China for his knowledge of the Diamond Sutra. For years he always carried it wherever he went, stopping at temples and lecture halls throughout the country.

One day, he learned that there was a temple in the south where the monks did nothing all day but sit facing the wall and sleep, and they still got enlightenment. "That's crazy," thought Dok Sahn. "They don't understand Buddha's teaching, Buddha's actions, or Buddha's mind. How can they get enlightenment? I'll go hit them, wake them up, and teach them the way of the sutras."

So he walked south several hundred miles. One afternoon he decided to rest for a little while at a small tea house. It was past lunch time and he was very hungry. The owner, an old woman, was honored to have such a great monk stop at her tea house. She bowed to him and said, "Good afternoon, great monk! Where are you coming from?"

"From the north."

"Where are you going?"

"South."

"Why are you going south?"

"I am a Diamond Sutra master," Dok Sahn replied. "At a temple in the south, the monks only sit facing the wall, sleep, and still get enlightenment. That's crazy! So I will go hit them, wake them up, and teach them the Diamond Sutra."

"Oh, that's wonderful!" the woman said. "You are a Diamond Sutra master! Well, I have a question for you. If you answer correctly, your lunch is free. But if you are wrong, I cannot serve you any lunch."

Dok Sahn grew very angry at this. "Shut up! You are speaking to a Diamond Sutra master! My knowlege of it is unparalleled throughout the land! Ask me anything!"

"Good," the woman said. "Now, the Diamond Sutra says, 'Past mind cannot get enlightenment, present mind cannot get enlightenment, and future mind cannot get enlightenment.' So I ask you, with what kind of mind will you eat lunch?"

Dok Sahn's jaw dropped. He stammered but could not answer and his face turned red. He was completely stuck. The old woman said, "You've studied the great Diamond Sutra for ten years! If you cannot answer this question, how will you teach the sleeping monks of the south?"

Quote: "Mr Dalai Lama or Mr Siddharta didn't debate with anyone about Buddhism.

See? They know more about Buddhism than you do, and they're teaching you. You're just refusing to learn.
"
.........

in Buddhism I am current of the opinion I can learn from all not just Dalai Lama ...even from a pen on my table but i wish to find out whats makes anyone believe that they understand Buddhism more than others .

Thks

CSEe

You see is all about you in Buddhism ...how you like to learn , your will to learn , your reasons to learn ....You are COMPARING the nature of a pen and Dalai Lama based on your KNOWLEDGE ..........you are accepting that as a fact or a faith ....thats you and thats your journey , your choice .

In My current understanding , the attachment on knowledge makes you believe the right and the wrong ......creates yourself . Buddhism is beyond knowledge , Buddhism is all about YOU never others so is all up to you what to learn or how to learn ....Buddhism is only a concept that you can learn from all sources regardless their nature , their lifelihood to understand your self NOT THEM . So whats is the different between Dalai lama or a pen ............? Both are just a being in their own process of purification that never connected to you , both a a being offering so much information , factor for you to understand yourself but if you attached to your knowledge , thats will limits your exploration to seek to understand yourself . Only with an acceptance of all being is SAME and EQUAL , we will be free to learn from all .

Thks

CSEe
.........

Quote: "So...who understands more about Buddhism? The pen, or the Dalai Lama? "
.........

I do not know my friend becouse I do not know how a nature of a pen in its process to be empty compare to Dalai Lama in his journey to free from himself -leading to emptiness . Both are in a process to free its polluted energy as the pen its polluted energy perhaps is the nature and Dalai Lama polluted energy perhaps is " himself" that is all his emotions , desire , will etc .

In my current understanding , Buddhism is NEVER about comparing one being to another being as all being is in their own speed , their own method , changing forms , in their own purification process to free all its polluted energy in a process I am currently known it as BUDDHISM .

In my current understanding of Buddhism ,Dalai Lama exist perhaps due to his emotions / his will to exist and he will continue to exist as long as he still attached to his emotions / will to exist ...his will / emotions is the cause of his existance , As the pen .....its nature is a polluted energy and still will in a same process to free its polluted energy to be empty ..........Buddhism is a process that all being release it polluted energy towards emptiness - the original state before existance .

Thks

CSEe

Quote: "Buddhism is a system. Of thought. De bate ... ... ... .. . NOW!!!"
.........

I am currently cant find any common sense of your opinion ...but thought still is tiny part of Buddhism . To say Buddhism is a system of thought to me is not in my current common sense as thought is resulted from " self"....a collection of all our desire , compassion , emotions , love , greed etc ......in short is still a reflection of a confused mind .........A thought , to have choices to think , to have / creates idea based on knowledge / experiences etc is a tiny process in Buddhism that is part of the own self exploration / realization .

Thks

CSEe

Quote: "All of you waste your time trying to teach this CSEe character anything.
He strongly believes only he is right and no one can change his mind.
He is like the man who comes to have tea with the great Zen master.
His mind is too full and the master continues to pour tea into his cup to make him understand. Zen Buddhism is about empty mind.

Take if you will ... CSEe puts up a topic of "DEBATE WITH TEACHER IN BUDDHISM"
Then he says he is trying to learn. No one who is trying to learn is here to debate.
Debate means to argue for your point of opinion .. not to learn.
Everything you say ... he will answer with "in my opinion, ..."
He is here to teacher you what he knows and not the other way around.

The best thing anyone can do for him is to tell him to practice Zazen and stop all this talk or debate. Because, all he is doing is becoming the master-debater  ....  hahaha
"
.........

Dear Avisitor , I do not understand the reason why you continue to make so many baseless accusation against me .......I had explained many time to you and others I wish to learn and for me by debating I can learn more . Many people perhaps including you just want me to follow their path and trying to teach me ......

To me Buddhism is all about the will to learn and you can rest assured that I sincerely have that . I have a very strong will to learn from you or anyone even anything but my learning process is limited by others refusing to answer my question or debate on each other opinion .

Many "teacher" just telling me stuffs , putting their idea to me but refuse to be challenged . Dear Sir even in Afganistan or China we have freedom to speech or expression but I cant find it in Buddhism website .

I just wish to debate with any people declare himself as "teacher" or " Master" in Buddhism and wish to understand what makes them feel they are "master" to others .....as simply as that . Indeed a few "master" had debate with me but most if not all of them end up with showing anger to me...WHY?

Dear Avisitor, lets learn.....

Thks

CSEe

I had wrote to him many time but I never think he will read it as he is a very busy man .

Thks

CSEe
.........

Dear sir , Buddhism is all about own self never others but all being is of SAME and EQUAL with me , I am same as any human , any animal , any plant , any micro-organism or any non-living -rock , water , rubbish etc . Only with that level of acceptance I can learn emptiness / my self from all . Freedom from knowledge is important in order to learn ...freedom from ownself is Buddhism 

Thks

CSEe
.........

Quote: ""Hi , I am currently of the opinion that Buddhism CANT be taught by any one including Mr Dalai Lama or Mr Siddharta himself as awareness of oneself cannot be compared or measured but I really cant understand what makes some human believe that they knows Buddhism better than other and teaching Buddhism . I really wish to seek , to understand their insight of what makes them so confident in Buddhism . If I could explore their insight , their realization perhaps I could understand more .
I am eager to debate with any Master that currently teaching Buddhism for my own learning process .
Thks
CSEe"

What would you like to know, my son?
"
.........

Too much but in this threat I wish to ask any people who is currently teaching Buddhism in any school / monastry ......what makes them confident to teach others Buddhism .

In my current understanding , Buddhism is all about how much we know ourselves , accepting ourselves leading to free us from ourselves .......since awareness of one person is IMPOSSIBLE to compare / measure thaerefore Buddhism is IMPOSSIBLE to be taught but could only be learned .

So dear Sir , please share your thought .

Thks

CSEe

ah well, there' s your problem right there,

common sense will keep you from burning the house down when you fry some eggs,

but when it comes to understanding buddhism you have to love, and common sense won't quite get you there

love is not common sense

in response to this

In my current understanding , in Buddhism all my emotions whether love / compassion or desire / greed is ALL polluted energy that attached to me . Buddhism is NOT practicing love or compassion but freedom from all emotions including love or compassion .

Thks

CSEe
.........

I am amused when walking in a public garden to see the little placards that are set next to the different species of flowers, including latin names, places of origin, etc.

Like any of that matters. 

If the flower smells good to you, and is pretty, then it is good, for you.  Someone else, maybe not.

Same with religions and philosophies.  It doesnt matter if Mass is in latin or some other language, if it makes you feel good, if you get something out of it.

I dont know about Buddhism, but Zen is often classified as an *experiential philosophy*.  Argue with that if you like, but if the experience of Zen is good for you then it is good.

(I remember in the Navy, a Chief in my office had a placard saying *Navy Chief* next to his desk.  I took the liberty of adding a latin sounding classification under that:  USNusPithecanthropus.  He never even noticed.)

I can always depend on an envigorating argument with you, esoteric, because it is your nature to argue for the sake of arguing.

Aside from having read some writings of the Buddha, I probably dont know that much about Buddhism, since I am not a Buddhist.  That has not been my path.  Transcendental Meditation is my religion and has been my path since 1974, daily, to present. 

It is just going into meditation and seeing what comes to you, not rejecting anything, or rejecting everything, but seeing what It has in store for you,  I did not see TM as a religion before awakening.  Before that I would have said I was an Agnostic.

Zen is enigmatic.  Buddhism you can study and learn.  If someone says they understand Zen, that I can relate to, but if they say they know Zen, that is a contradiction in itself.

With understanding there is no knowledge,

and with knowledge there is no understanding.