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  In Tokyo in the Meiji era there lived two prominent teachers of opposite characteristics. One, Unsho, an instructor in Shingon, kept Buddha's precepts scrupulously. He never drank intoxicants, nor did he eat after eleven o'clock in the morning.... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: PATIENCE
vertical line Posted on Oct.18.2012 @ 06:16AM EDT by starduster

One of the things I strive for in myself here is learning patience.

I know of others who are awakened who have come and gone from here because they are criticized by those who are not yet awakened,

people who cant relate to their understanding, but yet who are very sure they know what they are talking about,

why should they bother?  So they dont. 

I think they just go and attend to their own sitting and meditation.

There are others here who are awakened too.  Not all have gone, while others come and go.  The ones who are not awakened are easy to spot.  They are the ones telling me to stay focused and pay attention to becoming awakened, because they dont share the understanding of those who are.  They dont know what they dont have because they dont have it yet.

With knowledge there is no understanding, and with understanding there is no knowledge.

But this is not a sangha or a dojo.  Its a forum, where any and all can express themselves, from wherever they are on their path.  One thing that is always apparent here is that on any path it is easy to see behind, and not so easy to see ahead.


Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.18.2012
06:25AM EDT 
vertical line 52-card pick-up: No-path. No-thing to see. This is the seaing.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 144331
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Reply from starduster
Oct.18.2012
07:05AM EDT 
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When I first came here, looking for other awakened people, a fellow said that to him his satori experience, was like remembering a humburger that he ate 25 years ago.

I was aghast that anyone could have so little regard for such a tremendous experience, and told him that what he must have had was kensho, not satori.

Over time I came to see that he did have the same understanding that I had, he just wasnt as new at it as I was, and so I had to eat crow and apologize.  Afterwards he sent me an email sharing his satori experience and it was very profound.  We became friends.

I didnt see what he was saying because he was further down the road than me.  I couldnt see in him what I did not yet have in myself. 

I like to tell my stories, and I love the Spirit, but my understanding is of nothingness, no-thing-ness, from which anything may come.  For me it is the Spirit, but thats just for me, and maybe some others, but to each their own, from their own Self.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.18.2012
07:18AM EDT 
vertical line Patience is as free [of resentment and irritation] as a i r ...
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Reply from Avisitor
Oct.18.2012
08:21AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Thanks for sharing.
Probably the hardest thing to understand in Zen is that you start from where you are.
Sounds simple but it relates to so many other things.

My experiences have been few
So, I just enjoy my practice ....
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.18.2012
11:10AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

One of the things I strive for in myself here is learning patience.

I know of others who are awakened who have come and gone from here because they are criticized by those who are not yet awakened,

people who cant relate to their understanding, but yet who are very sure they know what they are talking about...

The ones who are not awakened are easy to spot.  They are the ones telling me to stay focused and pay attention to becoming awakened, because they dont share the understanding of those who are.  They dont know what they dont have because they dont have it yet.

When I first came here, looking for other awakened people, a fellow said that to him his satori experience, was like remembering a humburger that he ate 25 years ago.

I was aghast that anyone could have so little regard for such a tremendous experience, and told him that what he must have had was kensho, not satori.

Over time I came to see that he did have the same understanding that I had, he just wasnt as new at it as I was, and so I had to eat crow and apologize.  Afterwards he sent me an email sharing his satori experience and it was very profound.  We became friends.
I didnt see what he was saying because he was further down the road than me.  I couldnt see in him what I did not yet have in myself.

"
.........

The Buddha was awakened. And in his awakening, his coming and going from one place to another could not be controlled or influenced by what anyone said or did, because they were not his master.

All of Buddhism and Zen --- in fact, all that exists --- points to one thing. YOUR MIND.

By checking other people, comparing with yourself, you stay attached to yourself, and particular things about yourself. So you like this person, dislike that person. And you get pride, fulfillment, external validation, or you get anger, disgust, resentment. When you are truly awakened, you see this, and you work to stop it. You see by paying attention.

Paying attention, you look at all of your own attachments and responses. When you are looking for something here, stop and look at yourself, and understand what you are looking for. When you get some emotional response, stop and look at what caused it, and how it is caused in your mind.

I know that you understand "stopping the mind." So, realize that when you go on and on with your ideas and thinking and points of view, and someone comes along and challenges you very strongly, that doesn't mean they don't know what you're talking about. In fact, maybe they already talked about those same things at other times. They could know about it so well, and care about you so much, that they only act to see you become free of those things. Because they know how heavy is the burden.
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Reply from Avisitor
Oct.18.2012
03:44PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line What burden?
Who is the one carrying such a heavy load??
And, where are you going with that load??? ... hahaha
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.18.2012
06:54PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "What burden?
Who is the one carrying such a heavy load??
And, where are you going with that load??? ... hahaha
"
.........

Oh, you found it!

Now give it back, or you won't make it very far.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.19.2012
06:17AM EDT 
vertical line Pseuds' Corner.
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Reply from starduster
Oct.20.2012
01:55AM EDT 
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When you are truly awakened, you see this, and you work to stop it. You see by paying attention. esoteric

-------------------------------------------------------------

This must be one of those *self-diagnoses* of awakening, through *paying attention*.

Its all an illusion, except what you believe in, which is delusion.

The beauty of understanding that is that you can pick your delusions.  Why not ?  Theres no reason not to.  It doesnt matter.  In the case of the Buddha, he chose to teach even though he understood that there is nothing to learn and nothing to teach.  It was what he wanted to be.

And that is the difference.  If you are doing what you think you should do, thats just delusion.  If you are being what you want to be, that is illusion, or delusion within illusion. 

The only thing I believe in is the Spirit.  Thats my chosen delusion, within illusion.  Not a burden, but perhaps a gift to myself from my Self.


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Reply from starduster
Oct.20.2012
02:09AM EDT 
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When you are looking for something here, stop and look at yourself, and understand what you are looking for. When you get some emotional response, stop and look at what caused it, and how it is caused in your mind.  esoteric

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, what concerns me about you, esoteric, is that we usually dislike most in others either  what we have overcome in ourselves, or what we have not yet overcome in ourselves. 

Kinda like people who quit smoking and then become radically anti-smoking, with a vengeance, for instance.

If I have stopped being like you, I sure do want to keep it that way.  

Im just being the me I choose to be, and I want to be sure Im not interferring with other people being who they want to be.  For me its not about doing, paying attention or anything else, its about being. 

If youre not being who you want to be, then how could you ever hope to be happy?  So if youre being who you want to be, go ahead, just stay away from me with the stick you think youre entitled to hit people with, for their own good, of course.

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Reply from esoteric
Oct.20.2012
11:12AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

When you are truly awakened, you see this, and you work to stop it. You see by paying attention. esoteric

-------------------------------------------------------------

This must be one of those *self-diagnoses* of awakening, through *paying attention*.

Its all an illusion, except what you believe in, which is delusion.

The beauty of understanding that is that you can pick your delusions.  Why not ?  Theres no reason not to.  It doesnt matter.  In the case of the Buddha, he chose to teach even though he understood that there is nothing to learn and nothing to teach.  It was what he wanted to be.

And that is the difference.  If you are doing what you think you should do, thats just delusion.  If you are being what you want to be, that is illusion, or delusion within illusion. 

The only thing I believe in is the Spirit.  Thats my chosen delusion, within illusion.  Not a burden, but perhaps a gift to myself from my Self.


"
.........

"...on and on with your ideas and thinking and points of view..."
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.20.2012
11:14AM EDT 
vertical line On and on and on and on and off. So what?
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.20.2012
11:16AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

When you are looking for something here, stop and look at yourself, and understand what you are looking for. When you get some emotional response, stop and look at what caused it, and how it is caused in your mind.  esoteric

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, what concerns me about you, esoteric, is that we usually dislike most in others either  what we have overcome in ourselves, or what we have not yet overcome in ourselves. 

Kinda like people who quit smoking and then become radically anti-smoking, with a vengeance, for instance.

If I have stopped being like you, I sure do want to keep it that way.  

Im just being the me I choose to be, and I want to be sure Im not interferring with other people being who they want to be.  For me its not about doing, paying attention or anything else, its about being. 

If youre not being who you want to be, then how could you ever hope to be happy?  So if youre being who you want to be, go ahead, just stay away from me with the stick you think youre entitled to hit people with, for their own good, of course.

"
.........

I have nothing to do with "wanting to be" something. Go on wanting and choosing if you like. When you get hit with a stick just being what you want and choose, then just be hit with the stick. And when you're angry, just be angry.
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.20.2012
11:18AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "On and on and on and on and off. So what?"
.........

Your so what.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.20.2012
11:20AM EDT 
vertical line Profound.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.20.2012
11:21AM EDT 
vertical line Hey there, man with the big stick. Woof woof.
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.20.2012
11:41AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Hey there, man with the big stick. Woof woof. "
.........

Whose big stick?
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.20.2012
11:42AM EDT 
vertical line That's it - yours.
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.20.2012
12:47PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "That's it - yours."
.........

No sticks here.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.20.2012
01:20PM EDT 
vertical line Just the one you left on the other thread.
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.20.2012
02:28PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Just the one you left on the other thread. "
.........

Your stick now.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.20.2012
02:38PM EDT 
vertical line No.
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.20.2012
02:45PM EDT 
vertical line Good, have some pie.
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Reply from starduster
Oct.21.2012
05:30AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

When you are looking for something here, stop and look at yourself, and understand what you are looking for. When you get some emotional response, stop and look at what caused it, and how it is caused in your mind.  esoteric

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, what concerns me about you, esoteric, is that we usually dislike most in others either  what we have overcome in ourselves, or what we have not yet overcome in ourselves. 

Kinda like people who quit smoking and then become radically anti-smoking, with a vengeance, for instance.

If I have stopped being like you, I sure do want to keep it that way.  

Im just being the me I choose to be, and I want to be sure Im not interferring with other people being who they want to be.  For me its not about doing, paying attention or anything else, its about being. 

If youre not being who you want to be, then how could you ever hope to be happy?  So if youre being who you want to be, go ahead, just stay away from me with the stick you think youre entitled to hit people with, for their own good, of course.

"
.........

I have nothing to do with "wanting to be" something. Go on wanting and choosing if you like. When you get hit with a stick just being what you want and choose, then just be hit with the stick. And when you're angry, just be angry.
"
.........

"
.........

I have nothing to do with "wanting to be" something. Go on wanting and choosing if you like. When you get hit with a stick just being what you want and choose, then just be hit with the stick. And when you're angry, just be angry.
"
.........

Im not angry with you, esoteric.  What I feel toward you is disgust.

I think it may be that you remind me of my older brother.  He is always right, insists on being in control, and when he screws up its never his fault. 

We are estranged, and I havent had anything to do with him for years. 

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Reply from football
Oct.21.2012
05:59AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line We should not forget that our words are affect everyone.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 144657
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.21.2012
06:29AM EDT 
vertical line How do you feel?
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Reply from starduster
Oct.21.2012
06:35AM EDT 
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Quote: "We should not forget that our words are affect everyone."
.........

I value honesty above all else.  But you are right, there may be such a thing as being too honest.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.21.2012
06:52AM EDT 
vertical line I'm Not Like Everybody Else
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 144663
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.21.2012
11:01AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

When you are looking for something here, stop and look at yourself, and understand what you are looking for. When you get some emotional response, stop and look at what caused it, and how it is caused in your mind.  esoteric

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, what concerns me about you, esoteric, is that we usually dislike most in others either  what we have overcome in ourselves, or what we have not yet overcome in ourselves. 

Kinda like people who quit smoking and then become radically anti-smoking, with a vengeance, for instance.

If I have stopped being like you, I sure do want to keep it that way.  

Im just being the me I choose to be, and I want to be sure Im not interferring with other people being who they want to be.  For me its not about doing, paying attention or anything else, its about being. 

If youre not being who you want to be, then how could you ever hope to be happy?  So if youre being who you want to be, go ahead, just stay away from me with the stick you think youre entitled to hit people with, for their own good, of course.

"
.........

I have nothing to do with "wanting to be" something. Go on wanting and choosing if you like. When you get hit with a stick just being what you want and choose, then just be hit with the stick. And when you're angry, just be angry.
"
.........

"
.........

I have nothing to do with "wanting to be" something. Go on wanting and choosing if you like. When you get hit with a stick just being what you want and choose, then just be hit with the stick. And when you're angry, just be angry.
"
.........

Im not angry with you, esoteric.  What I feel toward you is disgust.

I think it may be that you remind me of my older brother.  He is always right, insists on being in control, and when he screws up its never his fault. 

We are estranged, and I havent had anything to do with him for years. 

"
.........

Who is insisting on being in control?
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.21.2012
11:02AM EDT 
vertical line Correction: Who is insisting on being in control of you?
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.21.2012
11:28AM EDT 
vertical line No, I was right the first time.
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Reply from starduster
Oct.22.2012
04:14AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

When you are looking for something here, stop and look at yourself, and understand what you are looking for. When you get some emotional response, stop and look at what caused it, and how it is caused in your mind.  esoteric

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, what concerns me about you, esoteric, is that we usually dislike most in others either  what we have overcome in ourselves, or what we have not yet overcome in ourselves. 

Kinda like people who quit smoking and then become radically anti-smoking, with a vengeance, for instance.

If I have stopped being like you, I sure do want to keep it that way.  

Im just being the me I choose to be, and I want to be sure Im not interferring with other people being who they want to be.  For me its not about doing, paying attention or anything else, its about being. 

If youre not being who you want to be, then how could you ever hope to be happy?  So if youre being who you want to be, go ahead, just stay away from me with the stick you think youre entitled to hit people with, for their own good, of course.

"
.........

I have nothing to do with "wanting to be" something. Go on wanting and choosing if you like. When you get hit with a stick just being what you want and choose, then just be hit with the stick. And when you're angry, just be angry.
"
.........

"
.........

I have nothing to do with "wanting to be" something. Go on wanting and choosing if you like. When you get hit with a stick just being what you want and choose, then just be hit with the stick. And when you're angry, just be angry.
"
.........

Im not angry with you, esoteric.  What I feel toward you is disgust.

I think it may be that you remind me of my older brother.  He is always right, insists on being in control, and when he screws up its never his fault. 

We are estranged, and I havent had anything to do with him for years. 

"
.........

Who is insisting on being in control?
"
.........

"
.........

Who is insisting on being in control?
"
.........

Got this from Spiritual Awakenings Fb page:

*The pain and damage we encounter from our past has a tendency to creep up in the present, especially when we are in the midst of new relationships and situations in life. This is ours souls way of giving us another chance to make peace with our past and truly give us a new start to life. If you feel your old damage creeping up today, affirm to yourself, “I am safe and at peace and step fully into today knowing that I will always be ok.*
I do believe that what I have felt for you is in memory of the things I endured from my older brother.  I will have to see how that insight changes things. 
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.22.2012
05:56AM EDT 
vertical line Ambience.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 144783
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.22.2012
08:53AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

When you are looking for something here, stop and look at yourself, and understand what you are looking for. When you get some emotional response, stop and look at what caused it, and how it is caused in your mind.  esoteric

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, what concerns me about you, esoteric, is that we usually dislike most in others either  what we have overcome in ourselves, or what we have not yet overcome in ourselves. 

Kinda like people who quit smoking and then become radically anti-smoking, with a vengeance, for instance.

If I have stopped being like you, I sure do want to keep it that way.  

Im just being the me I choose to be, and I want to be sure Im not interferring with other people being who they want to be.  For me its not about doing, paying attention or anything else, its about being. 

If youre not being who you want to be, then how could you ever hope to be happy?  So if youre being who you want to be, go ahead, just stay away from me with the stick you think youre entitled to hit people with, for their own good, of course.

"
.........

I have nothing to do with "wanting to be" something. Go on wanting and choosing if you like. When you get hit with a stick just being what you want and choose, then just be hit with the stick. And when you're angry, just be angry.
"
.........

"
.........

I have nothing to do with "wanting to be" something. Go on wanting and choosing if you like. When you get hit with a stick just being what you want and choose, then just be hit with the stick. And when you're angry, just be angry.
"
.........

Im not angry with you, esoteric.  What I feel toward you is disgust.

I think it may be that you remind me of my older brother.  He is always right, insists on being in control, and when he screws up its never his fault. 

We are estranged, and I havent had anything to do with him for years. 

"
.........

Who is insisting on being in control?
"
.........

"
.........

Who is insisting on being in control?
"
.........

Got this from Spiritual Awakenings Fb page:

*The pain and damage we encounter from our past has a tendency to creep up in the present, especially when we are in the midst of new relationships and situations in life. This is ours souls way of giving us another chance to make peace with our past and truly give us a new start to life. If you feel your old damage creeping up today, affirm to yourself, “I am safe and at peace and step fully into today knowing that I will always be ok.*
I do believe that what I have felt for you is in memory of the things I endured from my older brother.  I will have to see how that insight changes things. 
"
.........

Good man.

Everything is going to be okay. We're all in it together.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Oct.23.2012
06:38AM EDT 
vertical line Yes, you're all in mental agitation together.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 144827
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Reply from esoteric
Oct.23.2012
08:42AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Yes, you're all in mental agitation together. "
.........

Nah. Spin cycle. With fabric softener.
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Reply from starduster
Oct.23.2012
08:51AM EDT 
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Quote: "Yes, you're all in mental agitation together. "
.........

Not anymore. 

Im no longer displacing what I still feel toward mom and my brother toward esoteric, and hopefully not ever again toward anyone else either.

Looking back, I can see that has been a problem.

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Reply from esoteric
Oct.23.2012
09:09AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Yes, you're all in mental agitation together. "
.........

Not anymore. 

Im no longer displacing what I still feel toward mom and my brother toward esoteric, and hopefully not ever again toward anyone else either.

Looking back, I can see that has been a problem.

"
.........

Glad to be of some help to you, Don. :-)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 144847
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