I dont think there are fake people in zen, some just cant get as much out of it as others.  Its not their fault.

For instance, a person who is drunk or insane cannot be hypnotised because they cannot concentrate long enough.  But they will become more relaxed, and happy.

Same with zen and meditation, isnt better enough ?

Quote: "I know it seems it is quite impossible to run..lol "
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You seem to know what you don’t want to hear your teacher say but not what you do want to hear him (or her) say.  You’re a bundle of contradictions. Join the club lol. 

You must already have an idea in your mind of what an authentic pure Zen teacher is like otherwise you wouldn’t know what you aren’t looking for in a teacher, which you do, if you follow me.  That is, there’s a part of you that already knows. What part of you is that?

All I can say is that one’s teacher should be someone who we feel is further along the path than we are, is more evolved or however you want to phrase it. If we can’t find one, it’s perhaps a sign that we don’t need a teacher. That we should become a teacher ourselves (God forbid)  lol.

Seems no matter what a teacher says, you will run. If he says ‘you are already enlightened’ you’ll run. If he says ‘you must strive to become enlightened’ you will also run. If he says, ‘I am not awakened’  you will also run.  

According to you, even presuming to teach is a sign that he thinks he’s enlightened, therefore he cannot be a genuine teacher. 

Ken Wilber doesn’t say that he’s enlightened but he does talk a lot about what it’s like to be enlightened, which amounts to the same thing lol.

The truth is Leo there are no enlightened teachers ‘out there’ because they’re all already ‘in here’ lol

can zen be taught?

Stick to the facts.  If you have had a satori or nirvana experience, just say so.  Hiding it says more about ego, wanting to avoid skepticism or whatever, than just saying so. 

Having had a satori or nirvana experience does not make you a master or teacher.  It should be a prerequisite, but it does not impart any skill or desire in that area.  Im a pratyeka buddha, a lone buddha.  I had no teacher, and I have not desire to teach.  Whether or not you become awakened, although I wish everyone well, is not my problem.

I see lots of teachers, and masters, *out there*, who certainly do claim to be awakened, and I see that they are.  I see some here who claim to be awakened, and I can see that they are not.  They are not lying though.  They truly believe they are awakened, or at least should be having studied and learned more than others, and longer.  

Those who are not awakened have nothing to say about it, yet.

Sure, all day long,

but it cant be learned.

As they say it takes one to know one. I was trying to say that it's the part of us that is enlightened, our Buddha nature,  that recognizes a true teacher or the best teacher for us.  If I am not ‘saying’ anything here, then you are free to ignore it or to say that I am not saying anything or have no right to say anything.

Is there any point in being a piano teacher if no one can ever learn to play piano?  lol.  Then again Zen isn’t like learning to play the piano.  Or is it?

We can only recognize the Buddha in someone else through the  Buddha that is in us. If you have to be enlightened to realize that, then I am enlightened too. Lol

It's important to keep this good-humoured. 

hello Sam hardy,

it would appear here that both

zen teacher and student

piano teacher and student

just making a lot of noise

goodnight joe

love sleep

tea sees tea.

I really prefer being a shaman.

Animals are so much easier to relate to.

Right. And Zen can't be learned or taughtologized.

Tautology may refer to:

• Tautology (rhetoric), using different words to say the same thing, or a series of self-reinforcing statements that cannot be disproved because they depend on the assumption that they are already correct
• Tautology (logic), a technical notion in formal logic, universal unconditioned truth, always valid
• Tautology (rule of inference), a rule of replacement for logical expressions in some systems of propositional logic

What has been created in satori ?

*Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man that he didnt already have.* (America)

Satori or nirvana is a milestone along a journey of self-discovery.  Its not the end of the road.  There is no end of the road.

Satori is the arrival at Oneness, which seems at the time to be the truth, but beyond that apparent *Truth* lies a greater understanding of *nothingness*, which in itself denies all *Truth*, and beyond that I dont know because I havent gotten further than that yet.

Quote: "Quote: "Arguing isn't a tautology. Neither is dialectic. It's clear though, that you do enjoy arguing, so carry on arguing with your self, by all means.

Looking at self and world may be a tautology, arguably, with or without the so-called guidance of someone, who may or may not understand. Which begs the question: understands who/what?

However, authentic and genuine in Zen, is a tautology."
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Your statement was fine. "Zen can't be learned" was the subject of my response. Not an argument, just a finger pointing back at your fine statement. You understand?
"
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esoteric, youre the one who doesnt understand.

What you do is *know*, that zen is just sitting, that doing zen is all there is to it.

Its working for you, and has made your life better.  So just say, *This is what Im doing and it has made my life better*.  Then you will be right, and not over stepping your bounds.  Then, if and when you attain understanding, you wont have to look back on having been a stupid schmuck.

You fear being wrong, and want to tell everyone else what is right.  Then dont arrive at conclusions.  Leave it open ended.  Give yourself room to grow.

the way of zen is simply a way of self discovery.

one sees for oneself.

the old men of zen simply pointed in the one direction, regardless of the words they used, taught nothing, just pointed for one to see for themselves

"
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You were not paying attention.

"
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You are holding on far too much to things I say, and not paying enough attention to what they mean and how they make you respond.