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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: AUTHENTIC AND GENUINE IN ZEN
vertical line Posted on Nov.08.2012 @ 12:57AM EDT by leoj99
Authentic and Genuine in Zen.

Many Zen texts talks about Authentic and Genuine Teachers of Zen.
And there is also what is called Pure Zen.

Wondering why the emphasis of authentic or genuine Zen teachers?
So if there are authentic and genuine teachers there must non authentic teachers or fake teachers.


On the same reasoning there must be true zen students and fake students.

There is also Pure Zen so there must be unpure zen.

What do  you think?


Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic
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Reply from esoteric
Nov.08.2012
01:07AM EDT 
vertical line The sky is cloudy. Somewhere, the sun shines.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 146268
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Reply from justin
Nov.08.2012
05:02AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line I think ignorance and illusion are very strong (if u allow them to be)
Consequently there are many illusions / delusions in life. All aspects, so yes zen would come under that category.

Haha but even considering illusion is illusion :)
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Reply from starduster
Nov.08.2012
05:07AM EDT 
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I dont think there are fake people in zen, some just cant get as much out of it as others.  Its not their fault.

For instance, a person who is drunk or insane cannot be hypnotised because they cannot concentrate long enough.  But they will become more relaxed, and happy.

Same with zen and meditation, isnt better enough ?

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Reply from esoteric
Nov.08.2012
08:58AM EDT 
vertical line Can you distinguish the cloudy sky from the clear sky?

It's the same with Zen and Zen teachers.

Keep looking. It doesn't matter how far you go, or how high the mountain. The sky is the sky. Keep looking.

When you see the clear sky, and the sun shines brightly, you found the right Zen and the right teacher.
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.09.2012
01:26AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Can you distinguish the cloudy sky from the clear sky?

It's the same with Zen and Zen teachers.

Keep looking. It doesn't matter how far you go, or how high the mountain. The sky is the sky. Keep looking.

When you see the clear sky, and the sun shines brightly, you found the right Zen and the right teacher.
"
.........

Yes Sir!  I salute you for your view. Indeed it is so true. The analogy is perfect and exactly as it is.

If your teacher is not a cleary sky then you have all the bad luck in this world dump on you.
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.09.2012
01:30AM EDT 
vertical line So you need to consider following a teacher very meticulously. It is better not having a teacher at all than having a teacher who lacking of understanding.
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.09.2012
01:32AM EDT 
vertical line It seems there are so much talks now about zen teachers who are lacking of enlightenment experience.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 146324
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Reply from esoteric
Nov.09.2012
01:54AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "It seems there are so much talks now about zen teachers who are lacking of enlightenment experience. "
.........

If you find a teacher who claims he is enlightened, or awakened, or is in any other way special, then run in the other direction as fast as you can.
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.09.2012
02:12AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "It seems there are so much talks now about zen teachers who are lacking of enlightenment experience. "
.........

If you find a teacher who claims he is enlightened, or awakened, or is in any other way special, then run in the other direction as fast as you can.
"
.........

Well even if they don't claim, the fact that they assume to teach, they think they are already enlightened.
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.09.2012
04:08AM EDT 
vertical line If your Zen teacher says there is no need to be done, you are already enlightened, you must run...lol

If your Zen teacher says if you sit zazen you are already enlightened, run...lol

If your Zen teacher say do not seek enlightenment, run...lol
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.09.2012
04:10AM EDT 
vertical line If someone says don't stop your thoughts just watch them rise and fall, run...lol
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Nov.09.2012
04:21AM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
vertical line Quote: "If someone says don't stop your thoughts just watch them rise and fall, run...lol "
.........

You're going to be doing a lot of running Leo, I don't know where you're going to run (to this pure teacher perhaps?) but I hope you have the breath to get there !   lol
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.09.2012
04:26AM EDT 
vertical line I know it seems it is quite impossible to run..lol
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Nov.09.2012
05:04AM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
vertical line Quote: "I know it seems it is quite impossible to run..lol "
.........

Quote: "I know it seems it is quite impossible to run..lol "
.........

You seem to know what you don’t want to hear your teacher say but not what you do want to hear him (or her) say.  You’re a bundle of contradictions. Join the club lol. 

You must already have an idea in your mind of what an authentic pure Zen teacher is like otherwise you wouldn’t know what you aren’t looking for in a teacher, which you do, if you follow me.  That is, there’s a part of you that already knows. What part of you is that?

All I can say is that one’s teacher should be someone who we feel is further along the path than we are, is more evolved or however you want to phrase it. If we can’t find one, it’s perhaps a sign that we don’t need a teacher. That we should become a teacher ourselves (God forbid)  lol.

Seems no matter what a teacher says, you will run. If he says ‘you are already enlightened’ you’ll run. If he says ‘you must strive to become enlightened’ you will also run. If he says, ‘I am not awakened’  you will also run.  

According to you, even presuming to teach is a sign that he thinks he’s enlightened, therefore he cannot be a genuine teacher. 

Ken Wilber doesn’t say that he’s enlightened but he does talk a lot about what it’s like to be enlightened, which amounts to the same thing lol.

The truth is Leo there are no enlightened teachers ‘out there’ because they’re all already ‘in here’ lol

 


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Reply from zbishak
Nov.09.2012
05:32AM EDT 
Email zbishak
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can zen be taught?

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Reply from starduster
Nov.09.2012
05:33AM EDT 
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Stick to the facts.  If you have had a satori or nirvana experience, just say so.  Hiding it says more about ego, wanting to avoid skepticism or whatever, than just saying so. 

Having had a satori or nirvana experience does not make you a master or teacher.  It should be a prerequisite, but it does not impart any skill or desire in that area.  Im a pratyeka buddha, a lone buddha.  I had no teacher, and I have not desire to teach.  Whether or not you become awakened, although I wish everyone well, is not my problem.

I see lots of teachers, and masters, *out there*, who certainly do claim to be awakened, and I see that they are.  I see some here who claim to be awakened, and I can see that they are not.  They are not lying though.  They truly believe they are awakened, or at least should be having studied and learned more than others, and longer.  

Those who are not awakened have nothing to say about it, yet.

  

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Reply from starduster
Nov.09.2012
05:33AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

can zen be taught?

"
.........

"
.........

Sure, all day long,

but it cant be learned.

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Reply from shayne
Nov.09.2012
05:47AM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line unlearn moogly woogly.

key factor for zen.


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Reply from zbishak
Nov.09.2012
06:06AM EDT 
Email zbishak
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

can zen be taught?

"
.........

"
.........

Sure, all day long,

but it cant be learned.

a fine teaching there don

have you been teaching long?


.........
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Nov.09.2012
06:37AM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
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As they say it takes one to know one. I was trying to say that it's the part of us that is enlightened, our Buddha nature,  that recognizes a true teacher or the best teacher for us.  If I am not ‘saying’ anything here, then you are free to ignore it or to say that I am not saying anything or have no right to say anything.

 

Is there any point in being a piano teacher if no one can ever learn to play piano?  lol.  Then again Zen isn’t like learning to play the piano.  Or is it?

 

We can only recognize the Buddha in someone else through the  Buddha that is in us. If you have to be enlightened to realize that, then I am enlightened too. Lol

It's important to keep this good-humoured. 

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Reply from esoteric
Nov.09.2012
06:43AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Stick to the facts.  If you have had a satori or nirvana experience, just say so.  Hiding it says more about ego, wanting to avoid skepticism or whatever, than just saying so. 

Having had a satori or nirvana experience does not make you a master or teacher.  It should be a prerequisite, but it does not impart any skill or desire in that area.  Im a pratyeka buddha, a lone buddha.  I had no teacher, and I have not desire to teach.  Whether or not you become awakened, although I wish everyone well, is not my problem.

I see lots of teachers, and masters, *out there*, who certainly do claim to be awakened, and I see that they are.  I see some here who claim to be awakened, and I can see that they are not.  They are not lying though.  They truly believe they are awakened, or at least should be having studied and learned more than others, and longer.  

Those who are not awakened have nothing to say about it, yet.

  

"
.........

There is nothing to be said about it, because it is before and beyond saying. What anyone has to say about it are only thoughts about it. If said for someone's benefit, this is like candy or medicine to help that person to see it. If said for "no benefit" or just because someone wants to say it, then that is not it, but rather some desire to be special. Maybe a memory, but not an abiding. A good temple, but no Buddha.

"Master, which of us are enlightened."
"Every one of you is enlightened. Until you open your mouth about it."
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.09.2012
06:45AM EDT 
vertical line Shouldn't you be getting ready for work?
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Reply from esoteric
Nov.09.2012
06:49AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Shouldn't you be getting ready for work?"
.........

Oh yes.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.09.2012
06:55AM EDT 
vertical line A symbol of symbolic direction to any dimension beyond, is pointed to only by that which symbolises with it - the Principle recognising/understanding only the Principle.

Like with like
Fire sees fire
Love knows Love
.
.
.
.

Passerby walking
over zen teacup
talking
.... c-r-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-n-c-h-eeeeeeeeeee e e e e.....
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Reply from zbishak
Nov.09.2012
07:36AM EDT 
Email zbishak
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hello Sam hardy,

it would appear here that both

zen teacher and student

piano teacher and student

just making a lot of noise

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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.09.2012
07:39AM EDT 
vertical line Keep the noise down.

There are people trying to sleep in there.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.09.2012
07:46AM EDT 
vertical line Tiptoe through the crock.
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Reply from zbishak
Nov.09.2012
07:53AM EDT 
Email zbishak
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goodnight joe

love sleep

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Reply from football
Nov.09.2012
07:53AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line Quote: "

can zen be taught?

"
.........

"
.........

tea sees tea.

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Reply from starduster
Nov.09.2012
08:15AM EDT 
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I really prefer being a shaman.

Animals are so much easier to relate to.

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Reply from leoj99
Nov.09.2012
11:29AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Stick to the facts.  If you have had a satori or nirvana experience, just say so.  Hiding it says more about ego, wanting to avoid skepticism or whatever, than just saying so. 

Having had a satori or nirvana experience does not make you a master or teacher.  It should be a prerequisite, but it does not impart any skill or desire in that area.  Im a pratyeka buddha, a lone buddha.  I had no teacher, and I have not desire to teach.  Whether or not you become awakened, although I wish everyone well, is not my problem.

I see lots of teachers, and masters, *out there*, who certainly do claim to be awakened, and I see that they are.  I see some here who claim to be awakened, and I can see that they are not.  They are not lying though.  They truly believe they are awakened, or at least should be having studied and learned more than others, and longer.  

Those who are not awakened have nothing to say about it, yet.

  

"
.........

You still have not answered what you have created in you satori?
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Reply from Woodsman
Nov.09.2012
11:35AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line it's always alive and new  within every direction observed 
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.09.2012
11:39AM EDT 
vertical line Well I know that a new zen students cannot tell who is a good teacher. But it is quite easy to do some research. If a Zen Teacher is a Roshi and has produced several Roshis from his students then I guess that is enough proof that he is a good Zen Teacher.

It is true that it takes a thief to recognize a thief especially in Zen Forums...lol
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.09.2012
11:41AM EDT 
vertical line Fact or Fiction; Truth or Lies - you can't distinguish between them.
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.09.2012
11:50AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Fact or Fiction; Truth or Lies - you can't distinguish between them."
.........

Why not.. You mean you cannot distinguish what is fictionslol and what is facts?...lol... what a revelation...lol
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.09.2012
11:51AM EDT 
vertical line 'You' means you.
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Nov.09.2012
12:35PM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
vertical line Quote: "Well I know that a new zen students cannot tell who is a good teacher. But it is quite easy to do some research. If a Zen Teacher is a Roshi and has produced several Roshis from his students then I guess that is enough proof that he is a good Zen Teacher.

"
.....

That brings it back down to basics. Choose a teacher with a good record of success.  Then you will succeed in Zen and go on to great things.  Why didn’t I think of that? I told you you knew the answer yourself.  O well....
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.09.2012
02:22PM EDT 
vertical line Freedom of choice is what you got.
Freedom from choice is what you want.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.09.2012
02:45PM EDT 
vertical line Authentic and genuine in zen is a tautology.
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Nov.09.2012
03:02PM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
vertical line Quote: "Authentic and genuine in zen is a tautology."
.........

Right Joe. 

Right. And Zen can't be learned or taughtologized.

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Reply from esoteric
Nov.09.2012
07:05PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Authentic and genuine in zen is a tautology."
.........

Right Joe. 

Right. And Zen can't be learned or taughtologized.

"
.........

Zen is practicing zazen and interacting with teacher or teachers in looking at self and world through the guidance of someone who understands.

Arguing "can be learned" or "can't be learned" is meaningless without just doing it. Like someone who has never been in the ocean speculating whether it's possible to learn to swim or not. Shut up and dive in! You will never know until you try it.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.09.2012
07:28PM EDT 
vertical line Arguing isn't a tautology. Neither is dialectic. It's clear though, that you do enjoy arguing, so carry on arguing with your self, by all means.

Looking at self and world may be a tautology, arguably, with or without the so-called guidance of someone, who may or may not understand. Which begs the question: understands who/what?

However, authentic and genuine in Zen, is a tautology.
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Reply from esoteric
Nov.09.2012
07:37PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Arguing isn't a tautology. Neither is dialectic. It's clear though, that you do enjoy arguing, so carry on arguing with your self, by all means.

Looking at self and world may be a tautology, arguably, with or without the so-called guidance of someone, who may or may not understand. Which begs the question: understands who/what?

However, authentic and genuine in Zen, is a tautology.
"
.........

Your statement was fine. "Zen can't be learned" was the subject of my response. Not an argument, just a finger pointing back at your fine statement. You understand?
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.10.2012
02:35AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Well I know that a new zen students cannot tell who is a good teacher. But it is quite easy to do some research. If a Zen Teacher is a Roshi and has produced several Roshis from his students then I guess that is enough proof that he is a good Zen Teacher.

"
.....

That brings it back down to basics. Choose a teacher with a good record of success.  Then you will succeed in Zen and go on to great things.  Why didn’t I think of that? I told you you knew the answer yourself.  O well....
"
.........

Of course it is just simple common sense. One that has a line of record with traditional methods of transmission. Then if you still fail to get kensho then at the least you made a good choice.
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.10.2012
02:50AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Authentic and genuine in zen is a tautology."
.........

Tautology may refer to:

  • Tautology (rhetoric), using different words to say the same thing, or a series of self-reinforcing statements that cannot be disproved because they depend on the assumption that they are already correct
  • Tautology (logic), a technical notion in formal logic, universal unconditioned truth, always valid
  • Tautology (rule of inference), a rule of replacement for logical expressions in some systems of propositional logic

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Reply from leoj99
Nov.10.2012
02:54AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Authentic and genuine in zen is a tautology."
.........

Right Joe. 

Right. And Zen can't be learned or taughtologized.

"
.........

Zen can't be learned?.. Why not?
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Reply from starduster
Nov.10.2012
04:39AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Stick to the facts.  If you have had a satori or nirvana experience, just say so.  Hiding it says more about ego, wanting to avoid skepticism or whatever, than just saying so. 

Having had a satori or nirvana experience does not make you a master or teacher.  It should be a prerequisite, but it does not impart any skill or desire in that area.  Im a pratyeka buddha, a lone buddha.  I had no teacher, and I have not desire to teach.  Whether or not you become awakened, although I wish everyone well, is not my problem.

I see lots of teachers, and masters, *out there*, who certainly do claim to be awakened, and I see that they are.  I see some here who claim to be awakened, and I can see that they are not.  They are not lying though.  They truly believe they are awakened, or at least should be having studied and learned more than others, and longer.  

Those who are not awakened have nothing to say about it, yet.

  

"
.........

You still have not answered what you have created in you satori?
"
.........

"
.........

You still have not answered what you have created in you satori?
"
.........

What has been created in satori ?

*Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man that he didnt already have.* (America)

Satori or nirvana is a milestone along a journey of self-discovery.  Its not the end of the road.  There is no end of the road.

Satori is the arrival at Oneness, which seems at the time to be the truth, but beyond that apparent *Truth* lies a greater understanding of *nothingness*, which in itself denies all *Truth*, and beyond that I dont know because I havent gotten further than that yet.

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Reply from starduster
Nov.10.2012
04:47AM EDT 
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Quote: "Quote: "Arguing isn't a tautology. Neither is dialectic. It's clear though, that you do enjoy arguing, so carry on arguing with your self, by all means.

Looking at self and world may be a tautology, arguably, with or without the so-called guidance of someone, who may or may not understand. Which begs the question: understands who/what?

However, authentic and genuine in Zen, is a tautology.
"
.........

Your statement was fine. "Zen can't be learned" was the subject of my response. Not an argument, just a finger pointing back at your fine statement. You understand?
"
.........

esoteric, youre the one who doesnt understand.

What you do is *know*, that zen is just sitting, that doing zen is all there is to it.

Its working for you, and has made your life better.  So just say, *This is what Im doing and it has made my life better*.  Then you will be right, and not over stepping your bounds.  Then, if and when you attain understanding, you wont have to look back on having been a stupid schmuck.

You fear being wrong, and want to tell everyone else what is right.  Then dont arrive at conclusions.  Leave it open ended.  Give yourself room to grow.

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Reply from zbishak
Nov.10.2012
05:55AM EDT 
Email zbishak
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the way of zen is simply a way of self discovery.

one sees for oneself.

the old men of zen simply pointed in the one direction, regardless of the words they used, taught nothing, just pointed for one to see for themselves

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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.10.2012
06:38AM EDT 
vertical line The l ineage  Ol eo

  Inauthentic
  Zennist
  Whine

The three stigmata of ninety nine
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Reply from esoteric
Nov.10.2012
07:35AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Quote: "Arguing isn't a tautology. Neither is dialectic. It's clear though, that you do enjoy arguing, so carry on arguing with your self, by all means.

Looking at self and world may be a tautology, arguably, with or without the so-called guidance of someone, who may or may not understand. Which begs the question: understands who/what?

However, authentic and genuine in Zen, is a tautology.
"
.........

Your statement was fine. "Zen can't be learned" was the subject of my response. Not an argument, just a finger pointing back at your fine statement. You understand?
"
.........

esoteric, youre the one who doesnt understand.

What you do is *know*, that zen is just sitting, that doing zen is all there is to it.

Its working for you, and has made your life better.  So just say, *This is what Im doing and it has made my life better*.  Then you will be right, and not over stepping your bounds.  Then, if and when you attain understanding, you wont have to look back on having been a stupid schmuck.

You fear being wrong, and want to tell everyone else what is right.  Then dont arrive at conclusions.  Leave it open ended.  Give yourself room to grow.

"
.........

You were not paying attention.

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Reply from shayne
Nov.10.2012
08:45AM EDT 
Email shayne
vertical line the soul dont exist except to ghosties as a attachment to form from the mind and a projection of the mind and from it.

hehe.






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Reply from leoj99
Nov.10.2012
02:46PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "the soul dont exist except to ghosties as a attachment to form from the mind and a projection of the mind and from it.

hehe.






"
.........

If you have a soul then you have a big thing to burn in hell...lol
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Reply from esoteric
Nov.10.2012
05:48PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Quote: "Arguing isn't a tautology. Neither is dialectic. It's clear though, that you do enjoy arguing, so carry on arguing with your self, by all means.

Looking at self and world may be a tautology, arguably, with or without the so-called guidance of someone, who may or may not understand. Which begs the question: understands who/what?

However, authentic and genuine in Zen, is a tautology.
"
.........

Your statement was fine. "Zen can't be learned" was the subject of my response. Not an argument, just a finger pointing back at your fine statement. You understand?
"
.........

esoteric, youre the one who doesnt understand.

What you do is *know*, that zen is just sitting, that doing zen is all there is to it.

Its working for you, and has made your life better.  So just say, *This is what Im doing and it has made my life better*.  Then you will be right, and not over stepping your bounds.  Then, if and when you attain understanding, you wont have to look back on having been a stupid schmuck.

You fear being wrong, and want to tell everyone else what is right.  Then dont arrive at conclusions.  Leave it open ended.  Give yourself room to grow.

"
.........

You are holding on far too much to things I say, and not paying enough attention to what they mean and how they make you respond.

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Reply from esoteric
Nov.10.2012
05:56PM EDT 
vertical line "Why?" is a good question to keep asking, every moment. Like a child keeps asking his parent "Why?"

A parent who gets irritated is no parent at all. A good parent answers every "why" to the best of his ability. If he doesn't know, he says he doesn't know, but he can learn and teach the child where to look for the answer.
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