history principles practice stories, books, media discussion forum organizations resources
zenguide.com logo
 
Friday Dec 19 2014 01:29AM ET
º login º register º email º guestbook º printer friendly
grey dot
  The Buddha once taught the Bhikkhus about the All:

"I will teach you the All. Listen closely. What is the All? It is eye and visible object,
ear and sound, nose and scent, tongue and taste, body and feelings, mind and ideas.
... continue...

z
.
e
.
n
menu left history menu spacer principles menu spacer practice menu spacer zen media menu spacer discussion forum menu spacer organization directory menu spacer resources  
login
  DISCUSSION FORUM
» topic list   » start a new topic   » my tracked topics   » view topic
grey dot

horizontal line
→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: EAST WEST
vertical line Posted on Nov.17.2012 @ 01:32PM EDT by justin
Is there such a thing as eastern zen or western zen?

Is zen a geographically designated and specified truth?

Is zen chained to a particular country or cultural thought paradigm? (if such a thing exists?)

Zen is zen any designation of east west zen is erroneous. And reflects zen pride, zen attachment,zen identifying, personification (only people claim intellectual things).

As soon as we add a prefix zen is not zen it is east-zen, west-zen, these things indicate a mind of decisions and duality.
Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email justin
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Nov.17.2012
01:34PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line The way is not hard just cease to currier opinions.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147153
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Nov.17.2012
01:35PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Cherish
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147154
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.17.2012
01:35PM EDT 
vertical line Don't know, I'm utterly un-American.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147155
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Nov.17.2012
02:25PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line Why dont you ask a Japanese?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147161
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Nov.17.2012
02:33PM EDT 
vertical line Yep.. There is a great difference. The east does not talk.. the west like to talk..and talk and talk..
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147162
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Nov.17.2012
02:35PM EDT 
vertical line And you can find all the books in the west. Plus all the internet websites of Zen...
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147163
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Nov.17.2012
02:37PM EDT 
vertical line The west have all the ideas and concepts. The east has none..
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147164
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Nov.17.2012
02:40PM EDT 
vertical line But Zen came from the East to the West. The None in the east has transformed to something in the mind in the west... ideas and concepts that is why they are expressing it in so many ways and in volumes..
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147165
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Nov.17.2012
02:44PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line

Quote: "The west have all the ideas and concepts. The east has none.. "
.........

Leoj, If you dont mind are you from the east?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147166
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Nov.17.2012
02:49PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "The west have all the ideas and concepts. The east has none.. "
.........

Leoj, If you dont mind are you from the east?

"
.........

Yep I am from the east but not Japan..
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147167
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Nov.17.2012
02:57PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line Okay.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147168
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from jaigon
Nov.17.2012
05:48PM EDT 
Email jaigon
vertical line What about between Chinese and Japanese?  Is there much difference?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147174
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Nov.17.2012
06:50PM EDT 
vertical line It flowered in China as Chan and centuries later bloomed in Japan as Zen... 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147178
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.17.2012
07:30PM EDT 
vertical line The orient is not a geographical east.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147182
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Nov.17.2012
07:50PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line

Quote: "What about between Chinese and Japanese?  Is there much difference? "
.........

Good question.ask a Chinese.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147186
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.17.2012
08:11PM EDT 
vertical line Kosher zen abroad.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147187
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Nov.17.2012
11:45PM EDT 
vertical line Note that Chan flowered in China and Zen bloomed in Japan. It seems to me that they are the traditional Zen. In the West Zen became mystified or maybe called Modern Zen.

So China and Japan are traditional while in the West it is modern Zen.
So there was many published books and became very popular in the internet. So Zen bacame popular maybe a thousand folds.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147206
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Nov.18.2012
01:58AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line

Quote: "Yep.. There is a great difference. The east does not talk.. the west like to talk..and talk and talk.. "
.........

i have been east and they like to talk just same as here.

but this is not my question, i ask about Zen not talking

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147208
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Nov.18.2012
02:00AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line

Quote: "Note that Chan flowered in China and Zen bloomed in Japan. It seems to me that they are the traditional Zen. In the West Zen became mystified or maybe called Modern Zen.

So China and Japan are traditional while in the West it is modern Zen.
So there was many published books and became very popular in the internet. So Zen bacame popular maybe a thousand folds.
"
.........

so you talk and talk but still what is the differance? i not ask about tyradition, i not ask about internet, i not ask about books or popularity, i ask about Zen!!!

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147209
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Nov.18.2012
02:06AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line

truth is truth, if it changes from place to place it is not truth. it is culturally created opinion.

If Zen is Zen it is Zen everywhere or it is nothing anywhere.

Zen is just a word to describe.......................the thing it describes does not change, it is and is.

I think maybe people have misunderstood me, and confuse practice or effort with ZEn. (i can practice many things, and are they all ZEn?)

Is a Rose by any other name as sweet?  of course it is :)

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147210
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Chryseis
Nov.18.2012
02:17AM EDT 
vertical line

Everything is zen unless it is someone saying it is zen,

 if they say it is not zen then it is still zen

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147211
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Nov.18.2012
02:20AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line however that is just an opinion
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147213
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Chryseis
Nov.18.2012
03:04AM EDT 
vertical line however, yes
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147214
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Nov.18.2012
03:18AM EDT 
vertical line Well that is the difference I was explaining. In traditional Zen it indicated with the words... flowered and bloomed... in indicates nature... natural .. is the traditional Zen.

The Mystified Zen however or modern Zen.. it is far from nature. It is rather more on oneness and emptiness which is explained in Zen talks and Zen forums. It short in is in the consciouness, in the mind.

Maybe Zen made a hybrid with psychology.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147216
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Nov.18.2012
04:50AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line Dont come on me too much.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147217
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Sam Hardy
Nov.18.2012
06:37AM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
vertical line Quote: "Yep.. There is a great difference. The east does not talk.. the west like to talk..and talk and talk.. "
.........
It's as simple as that .... the plain unvarnished truth lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147219
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.18.2012
08:50AM EDT 
vertical line In the east, zen originated in the west. And wherever it has travelled, Zen Buddhism has adapted to cultural conditions. In China, Chán Buddhism evolved [flowered], under Daoist conditions, as it adapted to Chinese culture. Before Buddhism arrived in Japan, the Japanese had already begun to import aspects of Chinese culture, i.e. writing and the arts, Confucianism and Daoism. Chán Buddhism was imported into Japan by the ruling class and subsequently adopted by the Samurai. In China, Chán Buddhism was egalitarian; in Japan, Zen became the property of the elite.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147222
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Nov.18.2012
10:18AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line www.youtube.com/watch?v=I00Zw4Danmk
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147226
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Nov.18.2012
10:21AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "however that is just an opinion"
.........

I meant this in reference to my post. Just looking at it now I can see how I was not clear
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147228
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Nov.18.2012
10:41AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Thanks guys for the discussion. But are we talking about zen or are we talking about thoughts of zen. honest question not sarcasm.

Constructed histories maybe human attempts to explain something but the quintessential 'zen' Underneath personal language, culture, environment zen as in understanding of life, of releasing suffering of crushing ignorance. And ideas of self. Are these not universal concepts ? Is there only one way to unlimited paths?
Histories explain human interpretation (coloured by culture and geography) of a way/technique used to discover mind (or whatever way u describe).
I guess I asked the wrong question, I should ask is zen just the idea of a practice or mental sport or is zen something else. Does chopping wood carting water signify the practice as separate from the experience or the experience (of life) as zen in totality?

If practice is separate from experience it would make sense that one region may have a superior practice, if contrastingly it us a totality which encompasses practice any claims of regional superiority are baseless.
Or six of one half dozen of the other.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147229
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.18.2012
11:16AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "The orient is not a geographical east. "
.........

Neither east nor west, your sun rises, gone altogether beyond.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147232
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Nov.18.2012
11:34AM EDT 
vertical line Well in the East I think they are more of the .. Zen is just doing...
while in the West ... Zen is more thinking...they have the .. Universal concepts.. they  start with a concept and their reality follows..

In the East .. universal concepts are dropped.. reality is not a concept.
In short ... Stop thinking... just eat watermelon...

So not thinking in the East... and thinking in the West... that is the great difference.

But Zen is always everything.. including thinking..
But Zen the traditional way is not thinking..

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147233
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Nov.18.2012
11:47AM EDT 
vertical line So if we are talking of Zen practice in the East.. practice is experiencing while in the West practice is more on thoughts.. thinking and conceptualizing...

If you are thinking you are eating a watermelon what will happen?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147234
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from jaigon
Nov.18.2012
11:57AM EDT 
Email jaigon
vertical line I'm am no expert in Zen (still a newbie), but from a purely philisophical point of view the east and west have a different frame of mind.  The west is rational, they like to classify everything, label them, and put them in a nice little box.  To the west everything is empirical and is not valid unless it deductively works.

The east is much more abstract in their thinking and are less rigorous.  The east keeps nature as the squiggly line it is and does not box it and classify it.

Therefore when something abstract comes to the west, westerners attack it like a scientific problem and NEED to understand it at a rational level before anything is undertaken.  The west therefore wants to understand Zen, Bhuddism, Yoga, or what-have-you, at an intellectual level before they embark on the journey.  We feel uncomfortable just jumping in
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147235
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Nov.18.2012
01:23PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "I'm am no expert in Zen (still a newbie), but from a purely philisophical point of view the east and west have a different frame of mind.  The west is rational, they like to classify everything, label them, and put them in a nice little box.  To the west everything is empirical and is not valid unless it deductively works.

The east is much more abstract in their thinking and are less rigorous.  The east keeps nature as the squiggly line it is and does not box it and classify it.

Therefore when something abstract comes to the west, westerners attack it like a scientific problem and NEED to understand it at a rational level before anything is undertaken.  The west therefore wants to understand Zen, Bhuddism, Yoga, or what-have-you, at an intellectual level before they embark on the journey.  We feel uncomfortable just jumping in
"
.........

That is a very good understanding, Sir..
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147236
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Sam Hardy
Nov.18.2012
02:01PM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
vertical line

Whatever happened to non-duality?

A very good understanding of cultural conditioning.

Zen knows no East or West.

At the deepest level, there’s no eastern mind. There’s no western mind.

There are just deluded minds, and enlightened minds.

No mind means no mind, not no eastern mind or no western mind.

Perceived differences between East and West are nothing more than the result of cultural conditioning.

 

These are truths; not my truths and not my opinions.  Sorry. But it has to be said.

Then again, maybe I'm just a typical example of the western mind.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147237
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Sam Hardy
Nov.18.2012
02:14PM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
vertical line Or the eastern mind or a deluded mind.  

There, I got in before you lol.

Keep thinking dual, Leo.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147238
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Nov.18.2012
07:16PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Or the eastern mind or a deluded mind.  

There, I got in before you lol.

Keep thinking dual, Leo.
"
.........

So could you please explain non-duality Mr. Sam Hardy.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147247
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Nov.18.2012
07:39PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Whatever happened to non-duality?

A very good understanding of cultural conditioning.

Zen knows no East or West.

At the deepest level, there’s no eastern mind. There’s no western mind.

There are just deluded minds, and enlightened minds.

No mind means no mind, not no eastern mind or no western mind.

Perceived differences between East and West are nothing more than the result of cultural conditioning.

 

These are truths; not my truths and not my opinions.  Sorry. But it has to be said.

Then again, maybe I'm just a typical example of the western mind.

"
.........

Ideally Zen is exactly what you said.. But it is more politically correct to say East and West...
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147248
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Nov.18.2012
11:48PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Or the eastern mind or a deluded mind.  

There, I got in before you lol.

Keep thinking dual, Leo.


"
.........

So could you please explain non-duality Mr. Sam Hardy.
"
.........

I think he just did :)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147259
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Nov.18.2012
11:52PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Pc, politically correct is a product of culture, each culture decides what is politically correct to them.

These are ideas of zen, created thoughts superfluous to knowing.

This duality is complicated eh

Whatever happened to non-duality?


A very good understanding of cultural conditioning.





Zen knows no East or West.





At the deepest level, there’s no eastern mind. There’s no western
mind.





There are just deluded minds, and
enlightened minds.





No mind means no mind, not no eastern
mind or no western mind.





Perceived differences between East
and West are nothing more than the result of cultural conditioning.





 





These are truths; not my truths and
not my opinions.  Sorry. But it has to be
said.





Then again, maybe I'm just a typical example of the western mind.

"
.........

Ideally Zen is exactly what you said.. But it is more politically correct to say East and West...
"
.........
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147260
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Nov.18.2012
11:55PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line I meant to say, politically correct is a product of a cultural shared belief. My pc may be very different to another's.

They are still thoughts on zen, created ideas to explain what needs no explanation, apart from experience.

This duality us complicated if u make it so.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147261
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Chryseis
Nov.19.2012
02:59AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "Quote: "however that is just an opinion"
.........

I meant this in reference to my post. Just looking at it now I can see how I was not clear
"
.........

oh I see, yes this was not clear, I assumed that you had your nose out of joint due to the hint of arrogance in my response

..carry on

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147267
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Chryseis
Nov.19.2012
03:08AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "I meant to say, politically correct is a product of a cultural shared belief. My pc may be very different to another's.

They are still thoughts on zen, created ideas to explain what needs no explanation, apart from experience.

This duality us complicated if u make it so.
"
.........

Just because your pc is a bit unusual, it doesn't mean you can't have an opinion, unless that is, a guy's brain power is actually proportional to the size of their pc.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147268
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Nov.19.2012
07:02AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line I mean the idea of pc is not constant, it changes with time and culture.

Opinions are illusion, they are ideas (created thoughts on what is)

All thoughts (Concrete ideas on things, this is this this is that.) are opinions. Static decisions on a dynamic situation. Life
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147273
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.19.2012
08:00AM EDT 
vertical line I'm a Mac.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147274
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.19.2012
08:05AM EDT 
vertical line And Zen is non-PC, north and south.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147276
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Sam Hardy
Nov.20.2012
10:34AM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
vertical line I think it's unhelpful and unproductive to dwell too much on the perceived differences in mentality between East and West.

There's doubtless something in it but the differences are not inherent.

I daresay Western cultural conditioning might in some cases put more obstacles in the way of understanding and practising Zen.

I wouldn't idealize the 'Eastern mind'. If the Eastern mind was enlightened, there wouldn't be any wars, violence or unrest there.  But there is.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147377
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.20.2012
11:06AM EDT 
vertical line People are people.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147380
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Nov.20.2012
11:15AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "I think it's unhelpful and unproductive to dwell too much on the perceived differences in mentality between East and West.

There's doubtless something in it but the differences are not inherent.

I daresay Western cultural conditioning might in some cases put more obstacles in the way of understanding and practising Zen.

I wouldn't idealize the 'Eastern mind'. If the Eastern mind was enlightened, there wouldn't be any wars, violence or unrest there.  But there is.
"
.........

I think we are just talking about Zen practitioners in the East and the West. Not the whole people in general.

I agree to what you are saying.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147383
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Nov.20.2012
11:46AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line U hit the nail on the head there Leo, zen practitioners are people, and people are deluded. But zen has no hooks to hang any description upon.people are deluded and think chained zen is free.

Paradoxically, everything is zen if only we see,
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147394
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Nov.20.2012
11:40PM EDT 
vertical line Well technically we are just talking about conditions of Zen practice in the East and West.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147432
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Nov.21.2012
04:28AM EDT 
vertical line

Eugene Herrigel is usually credited as the first to bring awareness of Eastern Religion to the west in the 40s.

The Beatles brought back Transcendental Meditation in the 60s, which they popularized, and which some of us still practice.

Carlos Casteneda is not taken as a non-fiction writer anymore, but is thought to have written, or plagerized, to congeal a story line from a number of practices, including Zen Buddhism.  He was undoubtedly a good researcher.  One criticism of him is that while he wrote of attending an Indian Peyote session, a Mitote, he was at the time of the session checked into the university library reading materials about Mitote practices of Native Americans.  Read it as fiction, knowing that, and you can get a lot out of it.

Shunyro Suzuki is creditied with opening the first Zen Center in the US, in Southern California, of course.

Osho moved his Ashram from India to the US, but after taking over a town in Oregon, and poisioning a local salad bar for politcal purposes, the leaders of his group were arrested and he was deported. 

Over time, the list of *awakened* authors and speakers in the West has grown too large and exhaustive to address specifically.  The world is full of Buddhas, as it should be.

East has long since met West on the path of righteousness. 

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147442
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.21.2012
05:33AM EDT 
vertical line Like I said, I went west and got deported east.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147454
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.21.2012
09:08AM EDT 
vertical line California Uber Alles.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147464
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Nov.21.2012
09:15AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "Like I said, I went west and got deported east."
.........

maybe you dodged a bullet there eh
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147465
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.21.2012
09:30AM EDT 
vertical line Maybe. Maybe I dodged a few zen fascists.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147467
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Nov.21.2012
09:46AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Like I said, I went west and got deported east."
.........

So how com your name is still Joe Chip... hahaha..
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147473
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.21.2012
09:50AM EDT 
vertical line How com? Dot com. hahahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147474
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Nov.21.2012
11:00AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line that comment is craps, :) 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147497
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from starduster
Nov.22.2012
03:41AM EDT 
vertical line

Quote: "California Uber Alles."
.........

Not lately.

The socially based economy has proved it real worth.

Hopefully good intentions are worth something, because thats all they have left.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147523
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Nov.22.2012
01:20PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "How com? Dot com. hahahaha"
.........

I knew you would laugh like the Buddha... hahaha..
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 147600
horizontal line
 
Back To Topic List   Go to Top of Page

 



SUPPORT ZENGUIDE.COM
If you are planning on purchasing any product from amazon.com, you can help us out by using the search box to the right or by clicking on this link to begin shopping.


Purchase posters, art prints, media (music CD & DVD)

buy this BUDDHA, PHAN, THAILAND
by Mark Standen
Puchase this Item
More Art Prints & Media
Zen & Buddhism books
 
 
d
.
i
.
s
.
c
.
u
.
s
.
s
.
i
.
o
.
n
.

.
f
.
o
.
r
.
u
.
m
.
Copyright © 1999 - 2014 zenguide.com - All rights reserved. °