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TOPIC: SEEING THINGS AS THEY REALLY ARE. |
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Posted on Nov.19.2012 @ 02:41AM EDT by leoj99
Seeing Things as They Really Are.
How do you see things as they really are? It seems no one is answering in the other forum.
Can we have an answer in this forum?
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Reply from zbishak
Nov.19.2012
05:33AM EDT
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things are just seen as they are
you have nothing to do with it |
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Reply from zbishak
Nov.19.2012
06:08AM EDT
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simply a matter of leaving the self out of it
'selflessness'
what zazen points to |
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Reply from QuantumZen
Nov.19.2012
06:33AM EDT
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If by seeing a chair you see a piece of furniture for sitting, then you are not seeing a chair as it is. It might be it's function, relation to you, association with memories, emotional response. But if you see a chair as just a chair. Just a funny piece of wood. Then a chair is a guitar stand ^^ |
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.19.2012
08:02AM EDT
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It seems you're all being led around by the nose. |
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Reply from Avisitor
Nov.19.2012
04:05PM EDT
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When born, each has a natural filter in place to grasping the world
Other wise, a new born would be the most enlightened being on the planet.
If meditation were just to stop thinking then a hammer to the brain would make you enlightened.
So you want to see things as they really are??
Practice sitting in perfection and realize the truth of your nature.
Those are the words that have been passed on and on ... here and everywhere.
Shikantanza
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147321
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Reply from BlankName
Nov.19.2012
05:54PM EDT
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I just am. |
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Reply from BlankName
Nov.19.2012
06:03PM EDT
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I just am just as I am. |
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Reply from BlankName
Nov.19.2012
06:09PM EDT
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Such is life, 10,000 things, As one is. |
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Reply from BlankName
Nov.19.2012
06:10PM EDT
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That's a rap. |
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147325
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.19.2012
11:28PM EDT
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Quote: "When born, each has a natural filter in place to grasping the world
Other wise, a new born would be the most enlightened being on the planet.
If meditation were just to stop thinking then a hammer to the brain would make you enlightened.
So you want to see things as they really are??
Practice sitting in perfection and realize the truth of your nature.
Those are the words that have been passed on and on ... here and everywhere.
Shikantanza
"
.........
So have you done it? How do you know?
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Reply from Riverstone
Nov.20.2012
01:20AM EDT
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People often see things as they actually are, then they start to interpret what it is they have seen, to color it with previous experience, to construct the past and future of whatever it may be. Meaning is added so that what is seen becomes other than what is. If you can look upon the images of your vision without the discrimination of interpretation, this is seeing it as it is. Yet, by watching the background commentary, interpretation, constructs, theories and concepts, by becoming intimate with them, they loosen, we cling to them less. It is not rid of by willpower, but by looking directly into it, and truly it is not there, the constructs, the shadows, all fall away. It is like watching a cloud and burning a hole through it with your awareness alone. You did not make it happen, it simply did not hold up under a constant gaze, it fell away. "This is what they call a "tree"." It is the most ubsurd thing to suddenly understand that there is no tree, no self to see the tree, no frame of reference to define, cut out, make separate. The color of the tree leaves rest upon the retina of your eye, the singing of its leaves upon the air tickles your ears, the tree is touching you though neither your hand nor body rest upon it and there is no tree, no nose, no eye, no hand to touch. It all simply IS. Yet no one can hand this to you, there are no true words that can capture it because words are the framing of reference over and over again and what we seek is beyond the border, beyond the frame.
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.20.2012
02:36AM EDT
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Quote: "People often see things as they actually are, then they start to interpret what it is they have seen, to color it with previous experience, to construct the past and future of whatever it may be. Meaning is added so that what is seen becomes other than what is. If you can look upon the images of your vision without the discrimination of interpretation, this is seeing it as it is. Yet, by watching the background commentary, interpretation, constructs, theories and concepts, by becoming intimate with them, they loosen, we cling to them less. It is not rid of by willpower, but by looking directly into it, and truly it is not there, the constructs, the shadows, all fall away. It is like watching a cloud and burning a hole through it with your awareness alone. You did not make it happen, it simply did not hold up under a constant gaze, it fell away. "This is what they call a "tree"." It is the most ubsurd thing to suddenly understand that there is no tree, no self to see the tree, no frame of reference to define, cut out, make separate. The color of the tree leaves rest upon the retina of your eye, the singing of its leaves upon the air tickles your ears, the tree is touching you though neither your hand nor body rest upon it and there is no tree, no nose, no eye, no hand to touch. It all simply IS. Yet no one can hand this to you, there are no true words that can capture it because words are the framing of reference over and over again and what we seek is beyond the border, beyond the frame.
"
.........
So what are really trying to say or explain? As you said it it is too complicated to understand by simple minded beings like me.
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Nov.20.2012
07:16AM EDT
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We can't 'see' things as they really are in themselves
because all things are ‘empty’, that is,
they don't exist from their own side, have no inherent existence, sunnyata
and all that. We always see things from some point of view or
other. Even the philosophers and scientists are beginning to figure this
out.
Seeing here of course means with the mind, and not physically
with the eyes.
We only 'see' things as they are’ when we see them from the 'point of
view' of a Buddha or awakened person. To know what that's like, you have
to be enlightened. Good luck with that if you haven’t already done it. :)
It’s a mind-boggling thought that if all phenomena are
empty, then even Nirvana is as well.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.20.2012
07:37AM EDT
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Digested read, digested: |
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147346
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Reply from justin
Nov.20.2012
08:01AM EDT
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You are already the Buddha, and seems u got handle on 'things as Is' |
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147353
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.20.2012
11:40AM EDT
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Quote: "
We can't 'see' things as they really are in themselves
because all things are ‘empty’, that is,
they don't exist from their own side, have no inherent existence, sunnyata
and all that. We always see things from some point of view or
other. Even the philosophers and scientists are beginning to figure this
out.
Seeing here of course means with the mind, and not physically
with the eyes.
We only 'see' things as they are’ when we see them from the 'point of
view' of a Buddha or awakened person. To know what that's like, you have
to be enlightened. Good luck with that if you haven’t already done it. :)
It’s a mind-boggling thought that if all phenomena are
empty, then even Nirvana is as well.
"
.........
I think you are thinking too much...lol
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Nov.20.2012
12:00PM EDT
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Thinking too much? You couldn't be accused of that Leo lol
That's my Western analytical mind rearing its ugly head again.
You asked for an answer and when you got one you say I'm thinking too much.
I can't win.
What's the Eastern answer? by becoming a buddha ? By holding up a flower like the Buddha ? Isn't that what started Zen off in the first place?
I can't hold up a flower on the internet. And you can't hit me over the head with a blunt instrument lol.
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147399
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Reply from floating_a
Nov.20.2012
12:13PM EDT
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Yawn |
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Reply from Avisitor
Nov.20.2012
04:26PM EDT
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Quote: "Quote: "When born, each has a natural filter in place to grasping the world
Other wise, a new born would be the most enlightened being on the planet.
If meditation were just to stop thinking then a hammer to the brain would make you enlightened.
So you want to see things as they really are??
Practice sitting in perfection and realize the truth of your nature.
Those are the words that have been passed on and on ... here and everywhere.
Shikantanza
"
.........
So have you done it? How do you know?
"
.........
Instead of asking me if I've done it, you should be asking yourself when you will do it ... hahaha
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.20.2012
11:30PM EDT
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Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "When born, each has a natural filter in place to grasping the world
Other wise, a new born would be the most enlightened being on the planet.
If meditation were just to stop thinking then a hammer to the brain would make you enlightened.
So you want to see things as they really are??
Practice sitting in perfection and realize the truth of your nature.
Those are the words that have been passed on and on ... here and everywhere.
Shikantanza
"
.........
So have you done it? How do you know?
"
.........
Instead of asking me if I've done it, you should be asking yourself when you will do it ... hahaha
"
.........
Well I am just verifying if you have done it so that I will know the value of your words...lol
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.21.2012
05:38AM EDT
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What I don't understand is this ... :) |
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Reply from Avisitor
Nov.21.2012
01:05PM EDT
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Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "When born, each has a natural filter in place to grasping the world
Other wise, a new born would be the most enlightened being on the planet.
If meditation were just to stop thinking then a hammer to the brain would make you enlightened.
So you want to see things as they really are??
Practice sitting in perfection and realize the truth of your nature.
Those are the words that have been passed on and on ... here and everywhere.
Shikantanza
"
.........
So have you done it? How do you know?
"
.........
Instead of asking me if I've done it, you should be asking yourself when you will do it ... hahaha
"
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Well I am just verifying if you have done it so that I will know the value of your words...lol
"
.........Th words aren't mine. They are passed down. Interpreted and reinterpreted.
What value they have now is up to you ... hahaha
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Reply from BlankName
Nov.21.2012
04:19PM EDT
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No further questions. |
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.22.2012
12:41AM EDT
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Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "When born, each has a natural filter in place to grasping the world
Other wise, a new born would be the most enlightened being on the planet.
If meditation were just to stop thinking then a hammer to the brain would make you enlightened.
So you want to see things as they really are??
Practice sitting in perfection and realize the truth of your nature.
Those are the words that have been passed on and on ... here and everywhere.
Shikantanza
"
.........
So have you done it? How do you know?
"
.........
Instead of asking me if I've done it, you should be asking yourself when you will do it ... hahaha
"
.........
Well I am just verifying if you have done it so that I will know the value of your words...lol
"
.........Th words aren't mine. They are passed down. Interpreted and reinterpreted.
What value they have now is up to you ... hahaha
"
.........
Ah so that is why they smells so bad...lol
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147510
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Nov.22.2012
06:51AM EDT
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Quote: "What I don't understand is this ... :)
"
.........
Where did I leave the carkeys?
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.23.2012
11:19AM EDT
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I think this is a good one for a start. This is not me obviously...lol
Seeing Things Clearly
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.27.2012
04:31AM EDT
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If you see a rose it is beautiful and it is always beautiful because there is nothing you can't think of a rose.
If you see a beautiful lady it remains beautiful until you know something about her. When you know that she is whore then she becomes ugly and all you can see is that she is a whore. You see her image not the beautiful lady.
In the case of the rose you see it as it really is. But the lady she is beautiful only before you begin to think. When you think you see the whore, the image. That is not seeing what really is.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.27.2012
07:50AM EDT
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I see a rose, she accepts all-comers to her double-D cup of compassion. |
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Reply from justin
Nov.27.2012
08:08AM EDT
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Quote: "If you see a rose it is beautiful and it is always beautiful because there is nothing you can't think of a rose.
If you see a beautiful lady it remains beautiful until you know something about her. When you know that she is whore then she becomes ugly and all you can see is that she is a whore. You see her image not the beautiful lady.
In the case of the rose you see it as it really is. But the lady she is beautiful only before you begin to think. When you think you see the whore, the image. That is not seeing what really is.
"
.........
What about when the rose rots and decays? all ideas of things are mind created.
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.28.2012
01:05AM EDT
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Quote: "Quote: "If you see a rose it is beautiful and it is always beautiful because there is nothing you can't think of a rose.
If you see a beautiful lady it remains beautiful until you know something about her. When you know that she is whore then she becomes ugly and all you can see is that she is a whore. You see her image not the beautiful lady.
In the case of the rose you see it as it really is. But the lady she is beautiful only before you begin to think. When you think you see the whore, the image. That is not seeing what really is.
"
.........
What about when the rose rots and decays? all ideas of things are mind created.
"
.........
That is already an story or part of autobiography of the rose..
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.28.2012
08:06AM EDT
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Driven into heart, the thorn writes in blood.
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147966
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.28.2012
08:12AM EDT
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The Deadly Nightshade |
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Reply from justin
Nov.28.2012
10:23AM EDT
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Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "If you see a rose it is beautiful and it is always beautiful because there is nothing you can't think of a rose.
If you see a beautiful lady it remains beautiful until you know something about her. When you know that she is whore then she becomes ugly and all you can see is that she is a whore. You see her image not the beautiful lady.
In the case of the rose you see it as it really is. But the lady she is beautiful only before you begin to think. When you think you see the whore, the image. That is not seeing what really is.
"
.........
What about when the rose rots and decays? all ideas of things are mind created.
"
.........
That is already an story or part of autobiography of the rose..
"
.........
yes and that is what makes it beautiful,
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Reply from justin
Nov.29.2012
01:01AM EDT
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Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "If you see a rose it is beautiful and it is always beautiful because there is nothing you can't think of a rose.
If you see a beautiful lady it remains beautiful until you know something about her. When you know that she is whore then she becomes ugly and all you can see is that she is a whore. You see her image not the beautiful lady.
In the case of the rose you see it as it really is. But the lady she is beautiful only before you begin to think. When you think you see the whore, the image. That is not seeing what really is.
"
.........
What about when the rose rots and decays? all ideas of things are mind created.
"
.........
That is already an story or part of autobiography of the rose..
"
.........
yes and that is what makes it beautiful,
"
.........
if it was allways there as bloom we would take it for granted.
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Reply from starduster
Nov.29.2012
04:29AM EDT
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Quote: "
We can't 'see' things as they really are in themselves because all things are ‘empty’, that is, they don't exist from their own side, have no inherent existence, sunnyata and all that. We always see things from some point of view or other. Even the philosophers and scientists are beginning to figure this out.
Seeing here of course means with the mind, and not physically with the eyes.
We only 'see' things as they are’ when we see them from the 'point of view' of a Buddha or awakened person. To know what that's like, you have to be enlightened. Good luck with that if you haven’t already done it.
--------------------------------
To see things as they really are is to see them as *empty*, and just being what they happen to be being at the moment.
There are only a certain number of different types of atoms (elements). Yet each one is constantly *degrading* into another different kind of atom of that set. So they are not even finite in that, since they all take turns being a different kind of atom of an established set, they are not really different at all. They are a very small community.
So what are they really ? Just energy. The only part of the atom, the nucleus, that can be said to have any body at all is in size relation to the energy field of the atom around it about the same as the football on the 50yd line in relation to the stadium around it.
When we look at all the things around us, they are made of atoms combining with other atoms to make molecules which are temporarily what they are being, while the atoms within them are changing constantly into other kinds of atoms to combine with other atoms, that used to be another kind of atom, to make new molecules to make new things.
The infinite energy field that we are a part of is not even eternal, it only exists in an everchanging Now, since what it was no longer exists, and what it will be, even if predictable, does not exist yet.
That pretty much makes this huge energy field one big IT, beyond description or definition, being just what It is being Now, Things as It is.
That much I can swear to. The part where I experienced this It with a consciousness or awareness of Its own is still speculative. |
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Reply from esoteric
Nov.29.2012
04:34AM EDT
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Energy problem. |
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148022
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Nov.29.2012
05:43AM EDT
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Thanks.
To see things as they are then is not even a synthesis of all possible point of view. |
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.29.2012
07:05AM EDT
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Innocence is seeing things as they are. |
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.30.2012
12:52AM EDT
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Quote: "Quote: "
We can't 'see' things as they really are in themselves because all things are ‘empty’, that is, they don't exist from their own side, have no inherent existence, sunnyata and all that. We always see things from some point of view or other. Even the philosophers and scientists are beginning to figure this out.
Seeing here of course means with the mind, and not physically with the eyes.
We only 'see' things as they are’ when we see them from the 'point of view' of a Buddha or awakened person. To know what that's like, you have to be enlightened. Good luck with that if you haven’t already done it.
--------------------------------
To see things as they really are is to see them as *empty*, and just being what they happen to be being at the moment.
There are only a certain number of different types of atoms (elements). Yet each one is constantly *degrading* into another different kind of atom of that set. So they are not even finite in that, since they all take turns being a different kind of atom of an established set, they are not really different at all. They are a very small community.
So what are they really ? Just energy. The only part of the atom, the nucleus, that can be said to have any body at all is in size relation to the energy field of the atom around it about the same as the football on the 50yd line in relation to the stadium around it.
When we look at all the things around us, they are made of atoms combining with other atoms to make molecules which are temporarily what they are being, while the atoms within them are changing constantly into other kinds of atoms to combine with other atoms, that used to be another kind of atom, to make new molecules to make new things.
The infinite energy field that we are a part of is not even eternal, it only exists in an everchanging Now, since what it was no longer exists, and what it will be, even if predictable, does not exist yet.
That pretty much makes this huge energy field one big IT, beyond description or definition, being just what It is being Now, Things as It is.
That much I can swear to. The part where I experienced this It with a consciousness or awareness of Its own is still speculative. "
.........
You can easily test a wall if it is empty. You can ram your car on the wall and find out right away if it is empty.
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Reply from BlankName
Nov.30.2012
01:07AM EDT
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Quote: "Driven into heart, the thorn writes in blood.
"
.........
The Secret of Laughing |
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Reply from justin
Nov.30.2012
01:21AM EDT
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Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "
We can't 'see' things as they really are in themselves because all things are ‘empty’, that is, they don't exist from their own side, have no inherent existence, sunnyata and all that. We always see things from some point of view or other. Even the philosophers and scientists are beginning to figure this out.
Seeing here of course means with the mind, and not physically with the eyes.
We only 'see' things as they are’ when we see them from the 'point of view' of a Buddha or awakened person. To know what that's like, you have to be enlightened. Good luck with that if you haven’t already done it.
--------------------------------
To see things as they really are is to see them as *empty*, and just being what they happen to be being at the moment.
There are only a certain number of different types of atoms (elements). Yet each one is constantly *degrading* into another different kind of atom of that set. So they are not even finite in that, since they all take turns being a different kind of atom of an established set, they are not really different at all. They are a very small community.
So what are they really ? Just energy. The only part of the atom, the nucleus, that can be said to have any body at all is in size relation to the energy field of the atom around it about the same as the football on the 50yd line in relation to the stadium around it.
When we look at all the things around us, they are made of atoms combining with other atoms to make molecules which are temporarily what they are being, while the atoms within them are changing constantly into other kinds of atoms to combine with other atoms, that used to be another kind of atom, to make new molecules to make new things.
The infinite energy field that we are a part of is not even eternal, it only exists in an everchanging Now, since what it was no longer exists, and what it will be, even if predictable, does not exist yet.
That pretty much makes this huge energy field one big IT, beyond description or definition, being just what It is being Now, Things as It is.
That much I can swear to. The part where I experienced this It with a consciousness or awareness of Its own is still speculative. "
.........
You can easily test a wall if it is empty. You can ram your car on the wall and find out right away if it is empty.
"
.........
He is saying empty of self, not empty (not nillism) this means every thing is connected to everything else and nothing stands alone as a thing. (try descrbe to me who leo is without referance to any other concept of thing, not leo the father, Leo the man, Leo the brother,Leo the worker, Leo the citizen, Leo the Zen follower, Leo the etc.....l
Take away all this duality and describe who you are.
I do not know what it is i am i dont even know if i a a i. the best i can do is understand (if vagely that at this point i write on the computer and hear the traffic and see people) but i do not even know if these things are real ??
haha the wall will only bother you if you consider your 'life' to be separate to everything else. and to be a value in of itself. If i have no self how can i loose it? and here is the big question, if i die now what happens ? and is it really important of itself?
And lol the dead do not suffer,
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Reply from Chryseis
Nov.30.2012
07:24AM EDT
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Quote: "I see a rose, she accepts all-comers to her double-D cup of compassion. "
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is this still about watermelons |
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.30.2012
07:25AM EDT
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What? |
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.30.2012
07:36AM EDT
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It's about the Magna Mater. |
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Reply from Chryseis
Nov.30.2012
08:24AM EDT
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magna mater, DD cups, watermelons...ah fer chrissakes, you still looking for yo mama
that reminds me, where is zenis cool.... zenisss...yoohoo |
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.30.2012
08:27AM EDT
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I just write poetry, for my sake. Boohoo ... |
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Reply from Chryseis
Nov.30.2012
08:34AM EDT
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oh diddums, "I'm just a poor humble poet...IS THAT COOL OR WHAT!!...i am s'cool, i am s'cool, I am s'coo-l-oo-l-ool, I am s'cool" |
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.30.2012
08:34AM EDT
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Alas, alack. |
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.30.2012
08:35AM EDT
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Wow. Who said that?
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Reply from Chryseis
Nov.30.2012
08:47AM EDT
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I read it between the lines |
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.30.2012
08:48AM EDT
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Cynics are way cool, they don't see things as they really are. |
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Reply from Chryseis
Nov.30.2012
08:50AM EDT
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back tracking |
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.30.2012
08:52AM EDT
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The universal servant serves every name. |
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Reply from Chryseis
Nov.30.2012
09:03AM EDT
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token comment |
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.30.2012
09:07AM EDT
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...tling |
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Reply from leoj99
Dec.01.2012
03:03AM EDT
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The Art Of Listening |
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Reply from Joe Chip
Dec.01.2012
07:28AM EDT
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Free the comb-over. |
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Reply from zbishak
Dec.01.2012
07:38AM EDT
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simply , just don't apply a value judgment, .....good...bad....right or wrong, and they will be as they are
then you will not need to have to get enlightened to see them as they are.
like the old men of zen have said just don't form opinions |
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Reply from leoj99
Dec.01.2012
02:57PM EDT
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Quote: "
simply , just don't apply a value judgment, .....good...bad....right or wrong, and they will be as they are
then you will not need to have to get enlightened to see them as they are.
like the old men of zen have said just don't form opinions "
.........
In short, don't think.. no thinking.. isn't it?
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Reply from zbishak
Dec.01.2012
04:53PM EDT
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if an enlightened man is in a room full of people wanting to ask him questions,
as he is not separate from them,
is thinking absent from the whole |
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Reply from boymonk
Dec.01.2012
10:54PM EDT
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You can't handle seeing things as they are...
...
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...
....
See, told ya. :)
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Reply from leoj99
Dec.05.2012
02:20AM EDT
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If you see things with your eyes then you see them as they are.
If you see things through your mind then you are not seeing the real thing.
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Reply from zbishak
Dec.05.2012
04:08AM EDT
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the eye only sees itself
and it has'nt got an eye |
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Dec.05.2012
07:24AM EDT
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Quote: "If you see things with your eyes then you see them as they are.
If you see things through your mind then you are not seeing the real thing.
"
....
I feel perfectly confident in saying that neither of these two 'gems of wisdom' would get very high on the list of the greatest, most profound and insightful Buddhist quotes down the ages - or would get in it at all. :)
Perhaps you could try again.
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Reply from leoj99
Dec.05.2012
11:28AM EDT
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Quote: "Quote: "If you see things with your eyes then you see them as they are.
If you see things through your mind then you are not seeing the real thing.
"
....
I feel perfectly confident in saying that neither of these two 'gems of wisdom' would get very high on the list of the greatest, most profound and insightful Buddhist quotes down the ages - or would get in it at all. :)
Perhaps you could try again.
"
.........
Well isn't the gems are in those places where most people always ignored to look. Otherwise most people would have found it.
Most people looked and always like the gems of wisdom and the greatest and profound and insightful words in the universe.
They have always been searching for it. But look at the results.
Have they found it?
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Reply from leoj99
Dec.05.2012
11:52AM EDT
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Most people have figured out in their mind everything about God.
But they have not seen God with their own eyes. They have not touched God.
Very few people have seen God with their own eyes. They have touched and touching God. But they have to drop all what they have figured out in their minds about God.
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Reply from BlankName
Dec.05.2012
03:18PM EDT
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A mystery called 'God.'
Manifestation is like 'this is because that is.'
And a Common Source 'darkness within darkness'
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Reply from leoj99
Dec.06.2012
11:16AM EDT
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Quote: "A mystery called 'God.'
Manifestation is like 'this is because that is.'
And a Common Source 'darkness within darkness'
"
.........
So how come God is a mystery when everyone know about God. Everyone is always taking about God. Everyone is thinking about God.
They love God. They defend God too. If someone says something against God they even give their life for God. So how come it is a mystery?
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.30.2013
11:49PM EDT
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God is a mystery? |
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Reply from *CSEe*
Mar.31.2013
06:31AM EDT
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Quote: "God is a mystery? "
In my current understanding of Buddhism nothing is related / connected to ownselves so the existance of other being is not going to determine our process but can be a factor of our realization . So God whether exist or not is never my concern as all being is a source for my own realization not more than that .
Thks
CSEe |
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Reply from epictetus
Mar.31.2013
08:52AM EDT
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Quote: "Quote: "If you see a rose it is beautiful and it is always beautiful because there is nothing you can't think of a rose.
If you see a beautiful lady it remains beautiful until you know something about her. When you know that she is whore then she becomes ugly and all you can see is that she is a whore. You see her image not the beautiful lady.
In the case of the rose you see it as it really is. But the lady she is beautiful only before you begin to think. When you think you see the whore, the image. That is not seeing what really is.
"
.........
What about when the rose rots and decays? all ideas of things are mind created.
"
.........
we are almost there-good. now ask what is seeing? Because we do not "see" anything. The Mind creates reality or should I say re-creates it. |
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.31.2013
02:29PM EDT
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I don't think you will watch a rose until it decays...lol |
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.31.2013
02:42PM EDT
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Just watch and see... don't think.. |
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Reply from frozenaomi
Apr.01.2013
12:56PM EDT
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Why is a rose moving into decay any less interesting? Why is a woman only as attractive as the social values placed on her career? i.e. why should a beautiful whore be ugly? The rose is what it is whole or rotten the woman is who she is virgin or slutty. Wouldn't greater ascribed values constitute thinking? Or, more interestingly, isn't the simple state of existence the only relevant criteria for beauty?
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Reply from leoj99
Apr.01.2013
03:29PM EDT
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Because a rose decaying happens only in your mind. Like a beautiful lady becoming ugly happens only in your mind. |
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Reply from frozenaomi
Apr.01.2013
03:48PM EDT
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Quote: "Because a rose decaying happens only in your mind. Like a beautiful lady becoming ugly happens only in your mind. "
.........
I'm sorry. Now I'm even more confused. Roses don't decay? All roses that have ever existed exist still? Won't the ground eventually be depleted of the things it takes to make a rose? Has that already happened and all the roses I have ever seen red white and yellow were all infact the same rose and I just forgot the colour inbetween viewings? I thought roses lived, died, and then decayed so that their components parts were distributed until reabsorbed to make new living organism like the next generation of roses? If this doesn't happen then I am trapped even more deeply in my delusions than I had thought.
You also said "...If you see a beautiful lady it remains beautiful until you know something about her. When you know that she is whore then she becomes ugly and all you can see is that she is a whore. You see her image not the beautiful lady. ..." Perhaps I misinternalized your words. When you said she becomes ugly you meant that she only becomes ugly in the mind of the one that believes she is a whore? But that in reality, whore or not, she retains her physical identity as beautiful? Does it work the other way? Does a woman who is physically ugly, or at least, possesses none of the physical attributes that the example society de jour considers beautiful maintain the physical status of ugly what ever good internal qualities the observer ascribes to her?
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Reply from leoj99
Apr.02.2013
04:24AM EDT
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Don't take it personally... dude...lol |
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Reply from frozenaomi
Apr.02.2013
06:17AM EDT
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Ah. Now you remind me of Joe Chip. You both are very wise and I am always impressed how you can answer questions with non sequiturs. Unfortunately, I am not nearly as smart as you two and so I seldom understand. And all i wish to do is understand. Can't you use plainer words in pity of me? |
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Reply from justin
Apr.02.2013
10:52AM EDT
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Quote: "Ah. Now you remind me of Joe Chip. You both are very wise and I am always impressed how you can answer questions with non sequiturs. Unfortunately, I am not nearly as smart as you two and so I seldom understand. And all i wish to do is understand. Can't you use plainer words in pity of me?"
.........
roses decay, but to think about and discuss it is not roses decaying
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Reply from leoj99
Apr.02.2013
11:18PM EDT
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Only in your mind where a fesh rose can be beautiful then even in an instantly it decays... you see a beautiful rose and the mind in an instant sees the rose decaying which in actual fact or reality it never happens..
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Reply from frozenaomi
Apr.02.2013
11:49PM EDT
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I believe that Justin says, that real roses decay but that we can only talk about and imagine approximations, and this seems to make sense to me. Is this a fair reading of what you intended Justin? As such these words and ideas have only the attributes that we ascribe to them in the moment that we ascribe them but not the identity of the thing they describe. The painted rose resembles the flower but will never shrivel into a seedpod and perpetuate the line of roses will it?
It reminds me of the paradox of the page Plato points out in the Phaedrus. In a dialogue you can ask questions and elicit points of clarification but an oration is static one word following another changed only by the speakers intonation and text is more static still. The wildflowers of neverland shall bloom in precisely the same way as master Berry says they will about the native village because they aren't really followers but only a written approximation, right?
But isn't that markedly different from what you are saying here? You say, "the mind in an instant sees the rose decaying which in actual fact or reality it never happens." but isn't that exactly the tip off that neverland is an illusion? Its intransience? But you say are saying that reality is static aren't you? That the roses will never decay? That every rose that ever was still exists exactly as it was? And so I remain so confused and unsure of which side of the stary sky we really are. Is the truth that reality then is like the words on the page? That reality is like thoughts? That the flowers will in actual fact or reality never decay? Are the seasons the illusion, the process of life death an obfuscation? That which we experience subordinated under that which we speak of?
This position of yours surprises me greatly it seems so antithetical to your other ideas. I'm sorry, I do not understand how to braid them together? Maybe if you explain a little more I will understand better.
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Reply from leoj99
Apr.02.2013
11:57PM EDT
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A rose decaying in your mind is just an illusion. Anything in the mind is just an illusion. |
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Reply from leoj99
Apr.03.2013
01:44AM EDT
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How can a rose decay in your mind? A rose will wither maybe after three days by its own accord even if no one is thinking of it.. |
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Reply from justin
Apr.03.2013
03:10AM EDT
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I believe that Justin says, that real roses decay but that we can
only talk about and imagine approximations, and this seems to make
sense to me. Is this a fair reading of what you intended Justin? As
such these words and ideas have only the attributes that we ascribe to
them in the moment that we ascribe them but not the identity of the
thing they describe. The painted rose resembles the flower but will
never shrivel into a seedpod and perpetuate the line of roses will it?
yep
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Reply from justin
Apr.03.2013
03:17AM EDT
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so the rose is an illusion of mind but...................
A rose will wither maybe after three days by its own accord even if no one is thinking of it..
which is it illusion created by mind or ignored by mind ?
this riddle is easy to solve, go outside and grab a thorny rose by the thorny part and then tell me what was it that punctured your skin, ?
or smell the rose and tell me what is it that smells, better yet who smelt the smell ?
mountains are mountains rivers are rivers,
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