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  On one occasion, the Buddha said to the monks this:
"No other form do I know, O monks, that so persists in obsessing the mind of a man as the form of a woman.
The form of a woman persists in obsessing the mind of a man.

"No... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: FREE WILL
vertical line Posted on Nov.29.2012 @ 09:38AM EDT by QuantumZen
Free will is fundamental to humanity. And yet it is very hard to say why should there such thing. If we were to think about Cartesian determinism (Newton physics and completely automatic universe) we can't imagine a way for free will to occur. If we base our thinking on probabilistic quantum mechanics, then it is still not a free will, but a random will. If there is no free will, then how will bodhisatvas free everyone from suffering? And how can one become Buddha? He either is or not and the answer awaits somewhere further down the path.
Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email QuantumZen
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Reply from Woodsman
Nov.29.2012
10:29AM EDT 
Email Woodsman
vertical line free of the desire to have more, or less
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 148081
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Nov.29.2012
11:05AM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
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So if I decide I want to walk up the high street dressed as a penguin on stilts playing the accordion and singing a Reggae version of “I’ve got a lovely bunch of cocoanuts,”  I had no choice but to do that ?


For me it's a non-problem.

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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.29.2012
11:41AM EDT 
vertical line Brrrr ... It's cold in here. Godda light da fire.
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Reply from Woodsman
Nov.29.2012
11:46AM EDT 
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vertical line hiss wissper stilllsss the what watt wwaaatteerrr erring 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 148099
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.29.2012
11:50AM EDT 
vertical line Ok ... so if freewill is controlled by the ego. Is the ego subject to deterministic ego-death?
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.29.2012
11:53AM EDT 
vertical line I've got to g g g go and feed and water the birds.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.29.2012
11:54AM EDT 
vertical line bye
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Reply from floating_a
Nov.29.2012
05:11PM EDT 
vertical line Hard hard hard
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Reply from starduster
Nov.29.2012
07:26PM EDT 
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God gave me free will, and I willingly gave it back.

That was a long time ago, way back in 1979, even signed it in blood.

Life had been really hard, but changed immediately after that, for the better.

I still consider that contract to be irrevocable.  Thats my belief anyway.

I doubt if anyone on their deathbed has ever celebrated being an aethist.

Queen Victorias last words were, *My kingdom for ten more minutes*.

Osho says that only those who are awakened can consciously cross over into death.

I dont know if thats true, but I do believe that God guided me to awakening, and then gave it to me.  I also believe that when I die I will go home to the Spirit in the Void, and that that is where I belong in the universe, whatever may happen to anyone else.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 148119
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Reply from Avisitor
Nov.29.2012
10:14PM EDT 
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vertical line You are free to determine what you want to do
But, your destiny will remain the same
It is all in how you look at it .... hahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 148123
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Reply from boymonk
Nov.29.2012
10:36PM EDT 
vertical line Free visitor!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 148125
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Reply from QuantumZen
Nov.30.2012
12:40AM EDT 
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vertical line "So be it, if thats what you want"
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 148132
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Reply from leoj99
Nov.30.2012
01:26AM EDT 
vertical line Well as I understand about God giving us free will .. we have free will.. but the next God said is ... follow what I said or else...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 148138
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Nov.30.2012
04:54AM EDT 
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vertical line Quote: ""So be it, if thats what you want""
.........

Exactly. Only it’s what you choose, rather than what you want.

The higher the level of spiritual evolution of a being, the more free will they have.  A completely unawakened person is asleep and so acts mechanically and automatically and not mindfully.  That’s why it’s vitally important to meditate.

Zen is ‘designed’ to train people to act and think and live spontaneously and freely and not mechanically.

            As for the logical argument: If I say ‘I do not have free will’ and it ‘turns out’ I don’t, that means I had no choice but to say that I do not have free will.  If I then say ‘I do have free will’ and it again ‘turns out’ that I do not, that means I had no choice but to say it even though I was convinced that I did in fact have the choice.  Both are effectively ‘no win’ situations, if you like.

            And if I say ‘I do not have free will’ and it ‘turns out’ I do,  that means I do have a real choice but choose instead to say or believe that I do not have free will (which is rather pointless and self-defeating).  If I then say ‘I do have free will’ and it ‘turns out’ that I do, that means I do have a choice to say or believe it, and chose to say it.

            I believe in the fourth and final option because it is the only one that does not lead to absurdity, contradiction and hopelessness. And also because it is the only ‘win’ situation of the four.

            It seems to me that if I say I don’t have free will, then effectively I don’t;  and if I say I do have free will, then effectively I do.  And this changes all the time according to what I say and believe. 

            But saying one moment that one does not have free will and then saying the next moment that one does, is a self-contradiction and totally senseless.  And given that actually believing one moment that one does not have free will and then actually believing the next moment that one does, would be a sign of madness (if it weren’t well-nigh psychologically impossible in any case) : it follows that the only sane, positive and creative option is to believe in free will and to say it.

            For me the only way out of the absurdity and contradiction is to actually believe that I have free will and act and live my life accordingly.

            I’m not sure whether you will have followed my argument which may not be entirely logically coherent lol. But I hope you get the drift.

            It all comes down to a question of belief and how awakened one is.  We can create our own reality.  And I choose to create a reality in which I have free will.

It would be great if this meant I could do anything I want, but it doesn’t.

But there’s no contradiction there.

 


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Reply from leoj99
Nov.30.2012
05:05AM EDT 
vertical line Free will is a belief in religion. There is no mention of free will in Zen.
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Reply from Chryseis
Nov.30.2012
06:33AM EDT 
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There is no either/or when it comes to buddhas, only unrealized buddhas.

That is not to say we are buddhas, or unrealized buddhas for that matter

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Reply from zbishak
Nov.30.2012
06:39AM EDT 
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there is no such thing as freedom

nor a will to be restricted

where there is no prison,  what freedom is there to be sought?

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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.30.2012
06:47AM EDT 
vertical line Freewill is like the idea of an individual separate self - it's illusory. There is no individual separate self; there is no such thing as freewill.
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Reply from Chryseis
Nov.30.2012
08:44AM EDT 
vertical line free will is agreeing with god.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.30.2012
09:10AM EDT 
vertical line You're free to do as you're told.
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Nov.30.2012
10:47AM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
vertical line So I'm telling you to have free will and you're free to have it - or not.

Anyway, none of you can help talking nonsense.

Then again, you're all free to talk nonsense (or not). 

It doesn't make any difference either way.
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Nov.30.2012
11:29AM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
vertical line ## I've got a lovely bunch of cocoanuts ........ ##
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.30.2012
12:11PM EDT 
vertical line How dey hangin'?
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.30.2012
12:12PM EDT 
vertical line Speaking in tongue metaphors expresses the ineffable - also known as:'language-twisting-twisting'.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Nov.30.2012
10:07PM EDT 
vertical line Maid Of Orleans
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 148218
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Reply from leoj99
Dec.01.2012
02:24AM EDT 
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Does Free Will Exist?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 148223
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Reply from football
Dec.01.2012
03:41AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line nagarjuna
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Reply from Joe Chip
Dec.01.2012
07:32AM EDT 
vertical line Comb on over.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 148228
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Dec.01.2012
11:23AM EDT 
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There's no such thing as free will just as there's no such thing as a free lunch.

This is the timeless supreme wisdom.  

More spiritual truths to follow.  Don’t hold your breath.  It’s bad for you.  And don’t hyperventilate either.

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Reply from leoj99
Dec.01.2012
02:54PM EDT 
vertical line I think there is such thing as free lunch sometimes. But free will no. Religion believes that free will is there. Just a freebie... after they say follow God or else you go to hell...lol
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Reply from so_teh
Dec.01.2012
05:41PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line O you're going to die.
O you're going to see.
O you're going to cry.
O let's just have tea.
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Reply from so_teh
Dec.01.2012
06:01PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line O let it be.
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Reply from boymonk
Dec.01.2012
10:53PM EDT 
vertical line I feel like singing.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Dec.02.2012
07:11AM EDT 
vertical line Joan of Arc
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Dec.03.2012
12:36PM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
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As that great Zen master, philosopher and Pope, John-Paul Sartre II said, ‘man is condemned to be free.’ He also said,because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does.’

We have to believe in free will, otherwise we have no responsibility for our own actions. The social and spiritual consequences of this latter belief are highly undesirable for reasons that should be fairly obvious to the majority of rational beings to which I, like most practitioners of Zen,  of course do not belong  eBl.

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Reply from zenmanstan
Dec.04.2012
12:25AM EDT 
Email zenmanstan
vertical line everything is a choice.whether you follow the dharma and live your life or not its your choice, whether freedom comes about or not is based on bravery and caring/humility
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 148324
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