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  The Buddha was talking with Uttara, a young pupil of the bhramin Parasariya:
-Uttara, does Parasariya teach you how to develop your faculties?
-Yes, Master Gotama, he does teach us how to develop our faculties
-How does he do... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: IDENTITY AND KARMA
vertical line Posted on Dec.02.2012 @ 09:38AM EDT by Julito
I would like to ask about  identity.

I know about anatta, there's no individual soul, OK. In non-dualism the "soul" is just "god" but in Buddhism there's no soul.

So, correct me if I'm wrong,  in rebirth a part of our mind goes to a new body in a new land depending of Karma. We are responsible of what we do with our mind and our body during our life so, are we our mind and our body according to Buddhism? Or are they just a part of us?

I can watch my own body and I can watch my own mind, what is the "observer"? Is it me?

Thank you very much for your answers.

Julito




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Reply from QuantumZen
Dec.02.2012
01:05PM EDT 
Email QuantumZen
vertical line Universe is not self aware. As knife doesn't cut itself and light doesn't shine on itself, atman (the one that is everything) doesn't know/perceive itself as neither everyhing there is, nor only thing there is. We are it and yet we are a part of it. As an acorn is everything that is to oak and yet merely a small seed.

We can imagine to have minds, distinct bodies and many other polarized phenomenom (we choose to do it because of social comfort). But there is no we to begin with. You are a drop in the ocean. Which one are you? ;)
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Reply from so_teh
Dec.02.2012
02:08PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Being is & that is that.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 148262
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Reply from leoj99
Dec.02.2012
02:29PM EDT 
vertical line "I can watch my own body and I can watch my own mind, what is the "observer"? Is it me?"

If someone you are or you are not... you still have to find out yourself if it is true or not..
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Reply from leoj99
Dec.02.2012
02:30PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: ""I can watch my own body and I can watch my own mind, what is the "observer"? Is it me?"

If someone you are or you are not... you still have to find out yourself if it is true or not..
"
.........

If someone say you are .....
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Reply from so_teh
Dec.02.2012
02:48PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Look at the motive and look at the person just as one is.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 148268
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Dec.02.2012
04:16PM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
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You say ‘I’ can watch my own body and 'I' can watch my own mind, so who or what is the ‘I’ that is observing or watching?   This is something that each of us has to find out for ourselves in our own experience of meditation.

We can read all the sacred literature and teachings in the world that will tell us what this ‘I’ is and use different words to describe it, among which are ‘self’, ‘God’ ‘ever-present awareness’ ‘ever-present Big mind’ and ‘Buddha nature’ etc. But when it comes down to it, I don’t think it means a great deal until we have realized in our deepest selves what this ‘I’ is that seems to be neither our body, our mind or the thoughts that arise in our mind.

Sorry if you don’t find this answer helpful. As I said, there’s no shortage of books that go into and explain our ‘real self’ or ‘our true nature’ but as I say, it is something that you have to find out for yourself rather than learn from reading what someone else has said or written, however enlightened and self-realized these other people may be and doubtless are or were.

 

 

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Reply from leoj99
Dec.02.2012
05:48PM EDT 
vertical line I think if you find the small "i" or the no "i".. instead of the capital "I" the big "I" you have a direct clue to it..
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Reply from leoj99
Dec.02.2012
05:56PM EDT 
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Odnalezienie siebie (15)
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Reply from Joe Chip
Dec.03.2012
08:48AM EDT 
vertical line The big wheel keeps on turning, rolling on, so mind your toes, they're not yours.
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Reply from Avisitor
Dec.03.2012
09:38AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line impermanence (anicca), suffering (dukkha), non-self (anatta) are the three marks of existence.
Impermanence is change. All things made up of aggregates will change.
Suffering is due to craving and ignorance.
Anatta is non self or no self.

Thinking of reincarnation and no self ?? What is it that reincarnates??
Your body and mind are aggregates so they will go through change and will suffer but there is no self to suffer or change ... hahaha


Are we our mind and our body according to Buddhism? Or are they just a part of us?
No ... we are not our mind nor are we our body ... haha
Those things are aggregates.
Looking into yourself ... you will find emptiness and everything.
Take the time to answer your question yourself.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Dec.03.2012
09:52AM EDT 
vertical line Your aggregate problems arise from your separation of mind and body.
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Reply from Julito
Dec.04.2012
03:37AM EDT 
Email Julito
vertical line Quote: "Universe is not self aware. As knife doesn't cut itself and light doesn't shine on itself, atman (the one that is everything) doesn't know/perceive itself as neither everyhing there is, nor only thing there is. We are it and yet we are a part of it. As an acorn is everything that is to oak and yet merely a small seed.

We can imagine to have minds, distinct bodies and many other polarized phenomenom (we choose to do it because of social comfort). But there is no we to begin with. You are a drop in the ocean. Which one are you? ;)
"
.........

So if Atman isn't self aware,  ilumination isn't like a self awarening, is it?

Thank you all for your answers, btw! Thank you very much :-)
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Reply from leoj99
Dec.04.2012
03:58AM EDT 
vertical line Your identity is your conditioning. What you have learned of what you are. And that identity is your karma, the cause of all your suffering.
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Dec.04.2012
05:55AM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Universe is not self aware. As knife doesn't cut itself and light doesn't shine on itself, atman (the one that is everything) doesn't know/perceive itself as neither everyhing there is, nor only thing there is. We are it and yet we are a part of it. As an acorn is everything that is to oak and yet merely a small seed.

We can imagine to have minds, distinct bodies and many other polarized phenomenom (we choose to do it because of social comfort). But there is no we to begin with. You are a drop in the ocean. Which one are you? ;)
"
.........

So if Atman isn't self aware,  ilumination isn't like a self awarening, is it?

Thank you all for your answers, btw! Thank you very much :-)
"
.........

Depends what you mean by illumination.  It doesn't make sense to say that illumination is not illumination or that self-awakening is not self-awakening - even in Zen. 

And the universe is self aware and conscious and we as human beings can and do become aware that we are aware.  We are a part of the universe, stardust if you like, that has become conscious and self-conscious.  Otherwise it wouldn’t be possible to observe our own thoughts and be aware that these thoughts are not ‘me’, that they arise in consciousness and then vanish out of consciousness.   

 

A knife may not be able to cut itself (unless you break it in two), but consciousness is not exactly the same thing as a knife – a knife is a physical object and consciousness is not a physical object or even a thing at all (despite nonduality and emptiness).   And as such it can think and speculate on the nature of consciousness, that is, on its own nature.  

 

Btw there's no such word as 'self-awarening'.  Self-awareness yes. Self-awakening yes.  'Self-awarening' no. Maybe you're trying to coin a new word or concept. It’s just not clear what it’s supposed to mean. Perhaps ‘becoming self-aware’?


Unfortunately, words need to be used as carefully and accurately as possible in a forum like this because we don't have the facility of expressing ourselves through physical action, gestures or body language here.  Otherwise we're just guessing what someone else is trying to say.

 

Zen has become synonymous with or infamous for accommodating self-contradiction and paradox but there’s a limit. 

 

Typical airy fairy pseudo Zen talk like, for example, ‘the pants you’re wearing and not wearing’ is nonsense.  You’re either wearing a pair of pants or you’re not (unless perhaps they’re around your knees or ankles).  If you don’t believe me, the next time you go to work, go without any pants on and see if there’s anyone who doesn’t notice  you’re not wearing any pants. (And you won’t get round it by wearing a skirt instead.)

 

Zen is also about being real and down to earth and practical and commonsensical.

 

I like talking nonsense myself as must be clear from some if not all of my posts. lol.  However I try to be aware that I am talking nonsense when I’m doing it.  

 

If anyone thinks I am talking nonsense now, please feel free to let me know and I’ll seek to mend the error of my ways.


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Reply from Avisitor
Dec.04.2012
09:24AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Universe is not self aware. As knife doesn't cut itself and light doesn't shine on itself, atman (the one that is everything) doesn't know/perceive itself as neither everyhing there is, nor only thing there is. We are it and yet we are a part of it. As an acorn is everything that is to oak and yet merely a small seed.

We can imagine to have minds, distinct bodies and many other polarized phenomenom (we choose to do it because of social comfort). But there is no we to begin with. You are a drop in the ocean. Which one are you? ;)
"
.........

So if Atman isn't self aware,  ilumination isn't like a self awarening, is it?

Thank you all for your answers, btw! Thank you very much :-)
"
.........
No, illumination isn't like self awakening.
You can illuminate concepts to the point of clarity, conciseness
But, you can not illuminate self awareness ... you can only be self awareness, self awakening.
Practice more and these things will illuminate themselves ... hahaha

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Reply from leoj99
Dec.04.2012
11:32AM EDT 
vertical line I can see that it seems you are very clever. Illumination is there is light or you can see the light. If you can see the light I think that is the same as being aware or even awakening. Consciousness is nothing but your conditioning. So once you see this conditioning there is illumination, awareness, awakening... 
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Reply from Avisitor
Dec.04.2012
04:01PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I can see that it seems you are very clever. Illumination is there is light or you can see the light. If you can see the light I think that is the same as being aware or even awakening. Consciousness is nothing but your conditioning. So once you see this conditioning there is illumination, awareness, awakening...  "
.........

Illumination and awareness are not the same.
Don't confuse the two ... hahaha
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Reply from so_teh
Dec.04.2012
07:39PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "I can see that it seems you are very clever. Illumination is there is light or you can see the light. If you can see the light I think that is the same as being aware or even awakening. Consciousness is nothing but your conditioning. So once you see this conditioning there is illumination, awareness, awakening... 

"
.........

Illumination and awareness are not the same.
Don't confuse the two ... hahaha
"
.........

I see 'that is that.'
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Reply from leoj99
Dec.05.2012
12:38AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "I can see that it seems you are very clever. Illumination is there is light or you can see the light. If you can see the light I think that is the same as being aware or even awakening. Consciousness is nothing but your conditioning. So once you see this conditioning there is illumination, awareness, awakening...  "
.........

Illumination and awareness are not the same.
Don't confuse the two ... hahaha
"
.........
So can you please enlighten us why it is not the same...?
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Dec.05.2012
06:17AM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
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Do not follow the ideas of others, but learn to listen to the voice within yourself.  Dogen

Great advice but could be dangerous is you're a schizophrenic.

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Reply from Sam Hardy
Dec.05.2012
06:41AM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
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‘If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.’ (currently at the no. 5 spot in the Squidoo Proverbs and sayings chart).

Either way is spirit.  What do we have to worry about?

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Reply from Sam Hardy
Dec.05.2012
06:43AM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
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Correction: 

Great advice but could be dangerous if you're a schizophrenic.
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Dec.05.2012
10:14AM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "I can see that it seems you are very clever. Illumination is there is light or you can see the light. If you can see the light I think that is the same as being aware or even awakening. Consciousness is nothing but your conditioning. So once you see this conditioning there is illumination, awareness, awakening... 

"
.........


Whether you see that it seems or it seems that you see,

It’s ‘all one’ what you think you see in me. :)

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Reply from Avisitor
Dec.05.2012
10:40AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "I can see that it seems you are very clever. Illumination is there is light or you can see the light. If you can see the light I think that is the same as being aware or even awakening. Consciousness is nothing but your conditioning. So once you see this conditioning there is illumination, awareness, awakening...  "
.........

Illumination and awareness are not the same.
Don't confuse the two ... hahaha
"
.........
So can you please enlighten us why it is not the same...?
"
.........

When I was growing up, my older brother would tell me things and I would ask why.
His answer would always be "that's for me to know and for you to find out".
I would always be pissed at that. Later, I understood the meaning and would still wonder why I had to wait.
Being impatient and wanting everything now ... a lesson is learned in the meanwhile.
So, my answer to you ... even if you can not accept it ... is ... that's for me to know and for you to find out .... hahaha
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Reply from leoj99
Dec.05.2012
11:20AM EDT 
vertical line So since you don't want to enlighten us I always think they are the same.
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Dec.05.2012
12:36PM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
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Consciousness is nothing but your conditioning.

Anyone who can make a statement like that has already gone way beyond enlightenment.

If it weren’t so profoundly spiritually and cognitively, and even experientially, mistaken, not to mention incomprehensible, it might almost make me angry.  lol.

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Reply from so_teh
Dec.05.2012
03:26PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Truly an Unconditioning
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Reply from so_teh
Dec.05.2012
03:37PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line The root has come before the flower, always. That being the unconditioning (experience) comes before the enlightenment (subject).
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Reply from so_teh
Dec.05.2012
03:44PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Health
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Reply from leoj99
Dec.06.2012
12:26AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Consciousness is nothing but your conditioning.

Anyone who can make a statement like that has already gone way beyond enlightenment.

If it weren’t so profoundly spiritually and cognitively, and even experientially, mistaken, not to mention incomprehensible, it might almost make me angry.  lol.

"
.........

So what do you think?

Like the statement  ... the universe is conscious or the universal consciousness.. how did people know that there is universal consciousness...?
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