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  Posted on Aug.08.2009 @ 10:58PM EDT by chontri
What, monks, is the world? The eye and shapes, the ear and sounds,
the nose and smells, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactile objects,
the mind and mental objects - these... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: I CANNOT REALIZE
vertical line Posted on Jan.05.2013 @ 01:51AM EDT by Rokazulu
Many teachers and many teachings state that in fact, no being can "obtain" enlightenment. There is nothing for me to "get" since the "I" that I think I am is a marriage between a futility and an illusion.

So why does this illusion still persist?

Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.05.2013
03:41AM EDT 
vertical line You know I remember when a particular movie came out. There was all this hoopla about the movie. Up and down the nation people were whooping and in awe. When I finally had the chance to see it, I couldn't understand what all the fuss was about. It was certainly a good movie, but nothing extraordinary. Enlightenment can be like this. And even when it is not, even when you have the profound break in paradigm, the shock wears off, and it is rather ordinary. So ordinary that once you have it, and you no longer practice, you can drop out of it completely. Or, even worse than any of this is becoming attached and fearful of its loss which is anathema to it, so that now, it is gone all together and there is a longing and a desire for it to return. Or you never touch it all and you believe it to simply be a fairy tale. Sort of like the stories the pioneers wrote about seeing the grand canyon. Nothing like that exist anywhere else in the world so surely, they were exaggerating. The funny thing is every time you sit down, you are practicing enlightenment. Sometimes it lingers with you off the cushion, but truly if you are watching yourself as you mediate you are practicing enlightenment. The word itself is rather distracting. It sounds like a reward, or an arrival, a graduation or a completion and it is not these things at all. It is a verb, it is a doing, it is an action, it is not a state of being so much. Enlightenment does not fix everything, it simply puts you in the position to rearrange things so that there is a less harmful outcome. Pretty much everything in the precepts are just common sense, they come naturally as a product of practice. Even a person who has experienced enlightenment is not guaranteed anything. Because it must be constantly done. It is really like facing the sun, and then you turn your back on it and then there is not sun and you panic because the sun has gone, and all you have to do is reposition yourself, orient yourself toward the sun again and there it is. Yet, most of us, are comfortable facing away from it. That is where all our little illusions, and the world we have built, is "safe", so to speak. All those little attachments do not survive under the scrutiny of the sun. Even after your first enlightenment experience, you will turn your back on the sun over and over again, because it has become comfortable to hide in the illusions you cling to. The only thing extraordinary about enlightenment, is how clear it becomes, these things you are attached to, continue to be attached to, it is really easy to let them go, but they offer a gift that is just too precious, they support your ego and its limited perspective and the ego is happy for this because it thinks it will die if it does not defend itself. And honestly it is not even there. It is just as real as say a Windows operating system which lets you use the abilities of a computer, but it is only light and ones and zeros. Even a Zen Master can drop the ball, and even the Buddha has dropped the ball, because the non-discriminating practice can cease, even after enligthenment. It is not an absolute permanent state. Sort of like a bird does not remain in the sky at all times it must come down and nest. Or a whale can not remain submerged in the depths forever. Well, anyway, I am free to being wrong, but this has been my experience....language is so limited....
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149103
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.05.2013
03:45AM EDT 
vertical line I am sure Enlightenment is not that complicated...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149104
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Reply from so_teh
Jan.05.2013
04:37PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Illusion means the impossibility to decide if it's real or unreal.

The "I" is not personal it's universal.

Observations, thoughts, memories and consciousness are conditioning.

Enlightenment means to transcend obscurity.

Return to your breath, come into your own and accept things as they are.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149107
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Reply from Avisitor
Jan.05.2013
06:51PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I am sure Enlightenment is not that complicated...lol "
.........

You seem to have many ideas of how everything should be.
Elightenment is the act of an enlightened person.
Sit and practice Zazen
Do it with an honest effort
Bring awareness into a sharp reflection
If and when you see for yourself then you will know
Life is rich with many experiences
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149108
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.05.2013
07:01PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "I am sure Enlightenment is not that complicated...lol "
.........

You seem to have many ideas of how everything should be.
Elightenment is the act of an enlightened person.
Sit and practice Zazen
Do it with an honest effort
Bring awareness into a sharp reflection
If and when you see for yourself then you will know
Life is rich with many experiences
"
.........

How come all you know is sit and practice zazen. You can just eat watermelon and drink beer...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149109
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.05.2013
07:02PM EDT 
vertical line I suspect someone told  you that and you just mimic it everytime..lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149110
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Reply from Avisitor
Jan.05.2013
07:24PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "I am sure Enlightenment is not that complicated...lol "
.........

You seem to have many ideas of how everything should be.
Elightenment is the act of an enlightened person.
Sit and practice Zazen
Do it with an honest effort
Bring awareness into a sharp reflection
If and when you see for yourself then you will know
Life is rich with many experiences
"
.........

How come all you know is sit and practice zazen. You can just eat watermelon and drink beer...lol
"
.........

The practice of sitting and being awareness is enlightenment
It is the act of an enlightened person
One can not practice and develop enlightenment
cause that is not the way this works
But, being in the setting of enlightenment gives you more of a chance to find what it is you seek.

When you sit and practice, you seek for the truth inside of yourself.
When you eat watermelon and drink beer, you loo for other things outside of yourself.
You will never find the truth you seek outside of yourself.
Everyone says that it is illusions.

You have made your choice a long time ago.
That is why you are here.
That is why you fight for your truths instead of learning.
Criticize me all you like.
I won't  .... hahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149112
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.05.2013
08:05PM EDT 
vertical line I think you said something else but you did not admit that you heard it from someone else.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149119
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Reply from Avisitor
Jan.05.2013
08:17PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I think you said something else but you did not admit that you heard it from someone else. "
.........

This search for enlightenment has been going on for centuries.
Whatever has been said here has been said over and over again.
There is nothing new. Everything I have said ... has been said before.
Please continue with the criticism. It will get you exactly no where ... hahaha

What is there .. has always been there
No thing for you to see
Sit and practice Zazen
That is all you need to do

Hear it on the grapevine .... hahahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149120
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.05.2013
09:53PM EDT 
vertical line Haven't anyone heard of enlightenment stories of Great Zen Masters?

One was sweeping in the garden and a pebble flew and hit a bamboo... Toookkk.. and thats it... he got it and laugh.

Waaahhhh... and there he got it... and laugh..

So is that not simple enough...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149124
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Reply from Rokazulu
Jan.06.2013
08:06AM EDT 
vertical line I feel you guys are talking a bunch of nonsense, but nonsense that is pointing to something. Something that I always miss by every time I read a koan.

There is no mind, no buddha, no realization... so please use this thread to help the questioner.

What can be done to realize, if "I" can't make any efforts to realize.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149128
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Reply from Avisitor
Jan.06.2013
09:22AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Haven't anyone heard of enlightenment stories of Great Zen Masters?

One was sweeping in the garden and a pebble flew and hit a bamboo... Toookkk.. and thats it... he got it and laugh.

Waaahhhh... and there he got it... and laugh..

So is that not simple enough...lol
"
.........

What was last told was simple ... what came before was not ... hahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149129
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Reply from Avisitor
Jan.06.2013
09:30AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I feel you guys are talking a bunch of nonsense, but nonsense that is pointing to something. Something that I always miss by every time I read a koan.

There is no mind, no buddha, no realization... so please use this thread to help the questioner.

What can be done to realize, if "I" can't make any efforts to realize.
"
.........


The I doesn't exist when it comes to realizing the shift in paradigm.
If you sit in practice then you will become the awareness
Awareness in sharp focus can reflect all things
Then when it is right, you can step out of your own and see yourself

Dogen said that when we sit in practice, we sit as the Buddha sat
It is an act of an enlightened being ... practice it.

This is from a previous post  by Riverstone ...

Is Zen, a practice without thinking??


The awareness before and after thinking, this is the practice. If your mind is chaotic with thought,
your awareness of this .. is the practice. A great effort to make your mind stop thinking is unnatural.
The practice facilitates the moments when thinking is practically not there, but it is organic, natural.
When you focus on an object so strongly, that you are no longer thinking this is called concentration practice.
The whole idea of concentration practice is to remain aware, but aware without the rejection of the flowing of the present moment.
Should that moment contain, irritation, chaotic thoughts, or pleasant feelings, it is your awareness which is the practice.
Attachment to discomfort or pleasure will cause you to spiral in many directions,
but acknowledgement and honoring what arises and falls away as you release it, this is the practice.
When your awareness is strong enough you will begin to see your karmic impulses and instead of running with them, you let them go.
When there is no awareness, you are controlled by your notions and will do much to protect the truth of your beliefs.


Awareness does not reject anything, it sees the arising thought, reflects the thought,
And it stops reflecting it when the thought is gone. Awareness is the mirror, undiscriminating in what it reflects.
You know when awareness is gone, that is when you remember to watch your breathing again,
And then, you are aware again. Breathing is incidental but it is a good lifeline when your mirror becomes clouded.
The mirror will reflect, emotion, thoughts, dreams, and everything else that comes and goes.
Eventually there is a slip that happens where thinking suddenly ceases. You can feel it, it feels like everything has gone quiet,
Even as it has not. This can not be made to happen, but there is something in the embrace of every thought,
Every fluttering and distracting imagining, and then letting it go as it arises, as you embrace it.
Eventually the well of your pent up mental animations, runs dry, and you are pure here, pure now, pure being.
And then you start thinking again. You can wash dishes being the pure act of washing dishes. You can walk to the bus stop,
Being the pure experience of walking to the bus stop, and what thoughts arise, arise and fall away as part of the experience.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149130
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Reply from football
Jan.06.2013
10:16AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line

Quote: "I feel you guys are talking a bunch of nonsense, but nonsense that is pointing to something. Something that I always miss by every time I read a koan.

There is no mind, no buddha, no realization... so please use this thread to help the questioner.

What can be done to realize, if "I" can't make any efforts to realize.
"
.........

You're asking from hard places.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149131
horizontal line
 
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Reply from nibble
Jan.06.2013
05:23PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "You know I remember when a particular movie came out. There was all this hoopla about the movie. Up and down the nation people were whooping and in awe. When I finally had the chance to see it, I couldn't understand what all the fuss was about. It was certainly a good movie, but nothing extraordinary. Enlightenment can be like this. And even when it is not, even when you have the profound break in paradigm, the shock wears off, and it is rather ordinary. So ordinary that once you have it, and you no longer practice, you can drop out of it completely. Or, even worse than any of this is becoming attached and fearful of its loss which is anathema to it, so that now, it is gone all together and there is a longing and a desire for it to return. Or you never touch it all and you believe it to simply be a fairy tale. Sort of like the stories the pioneers wrote about seeing the grand canyon. Nothing like that exist anywhere else in the world so surely, they were exaggerating. The funny thing is every time you sit down, you are practicing enlightenment. Sometimes it lingers with you off the cushion, but truly if you are watching yourself as you mediate you are practicing enlightenment. The word itself is rather distracting. It sounds like a reward, or an arrival, a graduation or a completion and it is not these things at all. It is a verb, it is a doing, it is an action, it is not a state of being so much. Enlightenment does not fix everything, it simply puts you in the position to rearrange things so that there is a less harmful outcome. Pretty much everything in the precepts are just common sense, they come naturally as a product of practice. Even a person who has experienced enlightenment is not guaranteed anything. Because it must be constantly done. It is really like facing the sun, and then you turn your back on it and then there is not sun and you panic because the sun has gone, and all you have to do is reposition yourself, orient yourself toward the sun again and there it is. Yet, most of us, are comfortable facing away from it. That is where all our little illusions, and the world we have built, is "safe", so to speak. All those little attachments do not survive under the scrutiny of the sun. Even after your first enlightenment experience, you will turn your back on the sun over and over again, because it has become comfortable to hide in the illusions you cling to. The only thing extraordinary about enlightenment, is how clear it becomes, these things you are attached to, continue to be attached to, it is really easy to let them go, but they offer a gift that is just too precious, they support your

                                           
<-;;:++++++++++:_//
   //()     
  ///7+++<-
 //[ ]  
 (/7(/77/)

I kind like the stuff above mny artistic expression of a snowman running some futuristic lasergun


ego and its limited perspective and the ego is happy for this because it thinks it will die if it does not defend itself. And honestly it is not even there. It is just as real as say a Windows operating system which lets you use the abilities of a computer, but it is only light and ones and zeros. Even a Zen Master can drop the ball, and even the Buddha has dropped the ball, because the non-discriminating practice can cease, even after enligthenment. It is not an absolute permanent state. Sort of like a bird does not remain in the sky at all times it must come down and nest. Or a whale can not remain submerged in the depths forever. Well, anyway, I am free to being wrong, but this has been my experience....language is so limited....
"
.........
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149132
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.06.2013
06:55PM EDT 
vertical line Suppose if you don't sit. Where is the I...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149134
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Jan.06.2013
07:37PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "I feel you guys are talking a bunch of nonsense, but nonsense that is pointing to something. Something that I always miss by every time I read a koan.

There is no mind, no buddha, no realization... so please use this thread to help the questioner.

What can be done to realize, if "I" can't make any efforts to realize.
"
.........


The I doesn't exist when it comes to realizing the shift in paradigm.
If you sit in practice then you will become the awareness
Awareness in sharp focus can reflect all things
Then when it is right, you can step out of your own and see yourself

Dogen said that when we sit in practice, we sit as the Buddha sat
It is an act of an enlightened being ... practice it.

This is from a previous post  by Riverstone ...

Is Zen, a practice without thinking??


The awareness before and after thinking, this is the practice. If your mind is chaotic with thought,
your awareness of this .. is the practice. A great effort to make your mind stop thinking is unnatural.
The practice facilitates the moments when thinking is practically not there, but it is organic, natural.
When you focus on an object so strongly, that you are no longer thinking this is called concentration practice.
The whole idea of concentration practice is to remain aware, but aware without the rejection of the flowing of the present moment.
Should that moment contain, irritation, chaotic thoughts, or pleasant feelings, it is your awareness which is the practice.
Attachment to discomfort or pleasure will cause you to spiral in many directions,
but acknowledgement and honoring what arises and falls away as you release it, this is the practice.
When your awareness is strong enough you will begin to see your karmic impulses and instead of running with them, you let them go.
When there is no awareness, you are controlled by your notions and will do much to protect the truth of your beliefs.


Awareness does not reject anything, it sees the arising thought, reflects the thought,
And it stops reflecting it when the thought is gone. Awareness is the mirror, undiscriminating in what it reflects.
You know when awareness is gone, that is when you remember to watch your breathing again,
And then, you are aware again. Breathing is incidental but it is a good lifeline when your mirror becomes clouded.
The mirror will reflect, emotion, thoughts, dreams, and everything else that comes and goes.
Eventually there is a slip that happens where thinking suddenly ceases. You can feel it, it feels like everything has gone quiet,
Even as it has not. This can not be made to happen, but there is something in the embrace of every thought,
Every fluttering and distracting imagining, and then letting it go as it arises, as you embrace it.
Eventually the well of your pent up mental animations, runs dry, and you are pure here, pure now, pure being.
And then you start thinking again. You can wash dishes being the pure act of washing dishes. You can walk to the bus stop,
Being the pure experience of walking to the bus stop, and what thoughts arise, arise and fall away as part of the experience.

"
.........

I think that is too complicated man. Just follow the instructions on how to sit and follow your breath. If you lose count you go back to the breath. Thats it. lol  Here just follow this and bingo. just do it.

Zen Meditation Instructions

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149135
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Reply from justin
Jan.07.2013
11:36AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "I feel you guys are talking a bunch of nonsense, but nonsense that is pointing to something. Something that I always miss by every time I read a koan.

There is no mind, no buddha, no realization... so please use this thread to help the questioner.

What can be done to realize, if "I" can't make any efforts to realize.
"
.........

sit has it, watch your breaths and relax. the great contraction of relaxation :)

and trust.....no.... know the masters have spoken truth.

Enjoy your practice for practice and have no object on your mind (for you are absolutely correct there is no mind no Buddhas no realisation) and u will be the buddha, but most of all do not believe me!!!!!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149139
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