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  When Gensha Shibi, a Chinese Zen master, and a general were eating cakes together,
the general asked:
- What is it that's used everyday but not known?
The master handed a piece of cake to the general and said:
- Eat this... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: DO YOU NEED A LIVE GURU?
vertical line Posted on Jan.12.2013 @ 09:45PM EDT by leoj99
Do you need a live Guru?

Significance of a Live Guru

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Reply from nibble
Jan.12.2013
09:53PM EDT 
vertical line Nope, got youtube.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149202
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.12.2013
10:57PM EDT 
vertical line This has nothing to do with Zen Buddhism.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149204
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.12.2013
11:59PM EDT 
vertical line Why not?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149207
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.13.2013
02:47AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Why not?

"
.........

First do not think I am in objection to what this teacher is teaching. What I am saying is that he is not teaching Zen Buddhism, and that if you want to learn Zen Buddhism it is from a teacher of Zen Buddhism that you will learn. Do you step into a Catholic Church and assume you can tell a priest, the Vatican, and the congregation that they are doing it wrong? If you do,well then there is no more discussion to be had, you would then be willing to step into someone's home and tell them how to wash their own dishes. I too believe that insight, awareness, the practice of the non-discriminating present moment, is independent of teacher, sang-ha, Buddha and any religion. One can obtain a direct experience without these intermediaries. It is potentially a rough and rocky path with many obstacles. My initial direct experience was within the realm of my own spiritual system. The practice I had was all heart with little to no Dharma, and no teacher. Eventually I encountered an obstacle. And it was necessary for me to find a teacher.

So, yes, I agree with you and this teacher. You do not need a teacher, necessarily. Yet, the aid of a teacher can smooth, and speed up things a bit. A teacher can also inhibit. Yet, you can not learn Zen Buddhism without a teacher. Zen Buddhism is not a generic catch all term despite the modern use of the word Zen in this manner.

The non-discriminating, non-dual perspective that is the practice can be acquired in many ways, you can look at all the forms of Buddhism and many Christian, Hindu, Islamic practices which can induce this experience. Yet the raodmap for each can be drastically different from one another and the vocabulary as well.

If you approach a Zen teacher with a valid approach from another school, using the conceptual language of that school, they will pull your conceptual rug out from under you. Zen has a very specific approach of 'no ground of being'. When you remove this, you are no longer in the realm of Zen, it is now, something else. It is a little paradoxical, as it seems to be ground of being, and it is. It is the ground of being that has no ground of being. Sort of like the axiom; all things are subject to change, except change itself.

Now when you go into other schools they have grand conceptual and metaphorical ways of describing things. Such as your assertion that Duality is a place where there is 'No-Change', in a roundabout way, that is absolutely correct, and, it is not. That is how you get non-duality. Everything changes, yet, in the end there is, no everything, so everything is as it is, especially when you perecieve outside of linear time. Now we are in a highly metaphysical, realm which induces all this thinking, as you are so fond of trying to dismiss, even as you engage it constantly. It is here where Zen shuts down the thought process and says, practice, or do, get away from the grand conceptual construct your ego is enjoying sitting upon. Yet even still it is not this, absolute negation of thought, but sitting in the mind before thought arises, thought will arise, but so will the mind before arising thought. You can not get there by making it happen. I am tempted to say you make the space for it, but that too is intention. It simply happens as a result of practice, and you do not look for it, you do not sit willing it to happen, it just does.

The only way to do it, is to do it, and talk, and write less about it. Honestly, I found that Shambhala has helped my Zen practice...but that is me...



vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149211
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.13.2013
04:25AM EDT 
vertical line Well is it possible to go direct to the point without involving so many things?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149212
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Reply from nibble
Jan.13.2013
11:08AM EDT 
vertical line I liked Riverstone`s post, I Think zen meditation is very much about not getting involved but just observing. Not about trying to stop or change anything, but letting change happen by itself as the natural consequence of awareness.
(For Example: If you in a situation realize you are angry with childish and stupid mindset, then anger and childish stupidness will more often than not reluctantly fade away when you see it.)

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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.13.2013
02:52PM EDT 
vertical line Absolutely yes, Zen is a direct path. It is the seeking for something special which will occlude the actual, so just stop seekng. The simple instructions for zen are enough. After that a teacher can recognise when you are over thinking it and or adding your own spin on things. There is the general instructions for everyone, and then refined instructions which are specidic to each person, because everyone constructs their own unique illusions.

You can use other systems but it is very difficult not to attach a grand conceptual meaning to the process.

Once your teacher has you in the right track you can use your root spiritual tradition to keep you grounded, like Catholicism, Hinduism, and such just don't expect your Sangha or teacher to indulge whatever conceptual system you embrace.
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.13.2013
04:55PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Well is it possible to go direct to the point without involving so many things?

"
.........


I walked away and considered this a bit more. I have concluded that the answer is of course, yes. The problem is I can not advise you on it, it would require an intimate awareness of your chosen frame of reference, that which you go back to for comfort. It is possible for you to ask yourself, so to speak. If you trust your own basic goodness and trust in an inner wisdom which is inherent. This again, for clarification, is not a Zen teaching. Zen alone proved to be an obstacle for me at one point. I should say the, my concept of Zen was the obstacle. Once I combined Shambhala Warrior practice with my Zen practice, the spectre of Zen slipped away, and much of what I learned of Zen fell into place. Yet no one could have done this for me, how could they know? I have been among very wise fellow students who honestly believe they have never achieved anything in all thier years of practice. Not only have they achieved valuable practice, they understand that nothing was gained, rather than dropped. Yet they still seem to be waiting for fireworks.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149216
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.13.2013
05:12PM EDT 
vertical line Mostly the fireworks happpen when you are holding on really tight, some event comes along and shatters what you are clinging to. There is a powerful Ah-Ha! moment. If however you have slowly stopped clinging little by little until you no longer cling there will never be an "ah-ha" moment. Except perhaps in realizing no "ah-ha" moment is due. Do you see now why it is so unique to every individual? It is the same, yet the vehicle you arrived in is diffrent. I began clinging in new ways, so the journey never really reaches an end, one must always practice. Zen was not the means by which my first direct experience occured, yet the teachins of Zen and Shambhala have provided tthe refuge of Dharma.
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.13.2013
10:31PM EDT 
vertical line I think what you need to do is just sit zazen. Just do it. Just aware of the breath. Thats it. Not too much talking about it. 
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Reply from esoteric
Jan.14.2013
05:06AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "I think what you need to do is just sit zazen. Just do it. Just aware of the breath. Thats it. Not too much talking about it.  "
.........

Go right ahead.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149222
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Reply from Avisitor
Jan.14.2013
09:00AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I think what you need to do is just sit zazen. Just do it. Just aware of the breath. Thats it. Not too much talking about it.  "
.........

While that is good advice, you should also understand that Riverstone brings his understanding of Zen to the table.
You should not discard such valuable information without consideration.
Prcatice is improtant .. and so is understanding what you are practicing ... hahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149223
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Reply from so_teh
Jan.14.2013
09:16PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Good family & true friends.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149229
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Reply from boymonk
Jan.14.2013
09:39PM EDT 
vertical line Well, if one doesth needeth a grooruuuueth, one that is alive would be besteth.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149230
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.15.2013
12:56AM EDT 
vertical line Don't put more mud to the muddy waters...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149237
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.15.2013
02:19AM EDT 
vertical line I think if you are enlightened you can talk all you want. But if you are not yet enlightened maybe you can postpone your talking. But as the way it is most people like to talk and talk.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149238
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.15.2013
02:21AM EDT 
vertical line Or if you can't postpone the talk at least minimize it to avoid more damage.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149239
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Reply from boymonk
Jan.15.2013
12:50PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Don't put more sugar into the sweet waters...lol "
.........

Gassho!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149240
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Reply from football
Jan.15.2013
02:15PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line :) .... boymonk my friend Where are you living?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149244
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.15.2013
04:35PM EDT 
vertical line I am not in contention with you. I am trying to demonstrate with words the non - contentious mind. The reason masters discontinue using words, is because it can not be intellectually arrived at, that is all.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149247
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Reply from Sam Hardy
Jan.16.2013
09:51AM EDT 
Email Sam Hardy
vertical line There's a lot to be said for short posts, but I'm not going to say it eBl
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149259
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Reply from boymonk
Jan.16.2013
05:13PM EDT 
vertical line I liv'n on the court, short of sort, full of . . . shift?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149273
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