history principles practice stories, books, media discussion forum organizations resources
zenguide.com logo
 
Friday Dec 19 2014 10:00PM ET
º login º register º email º guestbook º printer friendly
grey dot
  continue...

z
.
e
.
n
menu left history menu spacer principles menu spacer practice menu spacer zen media menu spacer discussion forum menu spacer organization directory menu spacer resources  
login
  DISCUSSION FORUM
» topic list   » start a new topic   » my tracked topics   » view topic
grey dot

horizontal line
→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: ZEN BUDDHISM?
vertical line Posted on Feb.05.2013 @ 12:04AM EDT by leoj99
Zen Buddhism..?

As I can see in Zen Forums they talk about Zen or Buddhism. They even say that Zen Buddhism is the practice of Zazen and Zazen is enlightenment.

So whats the big deal about Zen Buddhism...lol

Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.05.2013
12:11AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

To me CURRENTLY, nothing is "special" or more than others ........thats Buddhism . Whether a serial killer with all his act or Dalai Lama with all his words is ALL SAME and EQUAL source of lesson for all to learn to discover , to know , to accept ownselves .

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149696
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from boymonk
Feb.05.2013
12:39AM EDT 
vertical line Zen has gotten so Zen that it's starting to forget it's Buddhism, so people thought like "Ah, I've got an idea! Let start saying Zen Buddhism instead of just saying Zen, so people will think we're Buddhists. Problem solved!"
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149698
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.05.2013
01:24AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

To me CURRENTLY, nothing is "special" or more than others ........thats Buddhism . Whether a serial killer with all his act or Dalai Lama with all his words is ALL SAME and EQUAL source of lesson for all to learn to discover , to know , to accept ownselves .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Except you made EQUAL special. So you think the Dalai Lama is no different than a serial killer. That is not Buddhism.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149703
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.05.2013
01:27AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Zen has gotten so Zen that it's starting to forget it's Buddhism, so people thought like "Ah, I've got an idea! Let start saying Zen Buddhism instead of just saying Zen, so people will think we're Buddhists. Problem solved!" "
.........

Maybe they just need to read more. Or other people need to read more, so they won't be fooled. At least you know the difference. So it will be okay.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149704
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.05.2013
01:28AM EDT 
vertical line Read, listen, look, understand more.That's what I meant by "read more."
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149705
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.05.2013
02:12AM EDT 
vertical line Zen and Buddhism, and Zen Buddhism, have always had sicknesses of specialty. When Bodhidharma purportedly got to China, there was already a problem of specialty in intellectualizing the sutras.

Even after the spread of Zen throughout the country, Zen got so esoteric, with so many schools that became more and more specialized, that the practice of Zen itself was considered "special" by many, both inside and outside the practice. Just like now.

Really, Zen is very special, and not special at all. The same can be said of just being alive, and being a human being. Very special, and not special at all.

The skillful master has the freedom of being and doing anything that is needed, at any time, and at any place, with no hindrance at all. That's true Freedom. That's why we practice Zen.

(Here's a cool article on the history of esoteric Zen and Buddhist teachings. I'm not sure of the historical accuracy, but it's an interesting read.)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149707
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.05.2013
02:34AM EDT 
vertical line From that article:

"This is also the case in China, for in the period after Zen's division into the five different sects, it is not only in Japan where the real Zen became absent, but everywhere else as well. The people who claim to be of a certain sect today know the right words to say and the proper outward forms of the school, but everywhere the real heart of the matter is lacking.

Most people, when they speak of Zen today, are just engaging in empty talk and word play. Of course this is not the real Zen, for it is just an imitation of how the Zen masters recorded their experiences or made use of the sharp point of spiritual potential to help awaken qualified students. Nevertheless, this is just the shadow of the shadow of the bright light of Chinese Zen which once existed."

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149708
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.05.2013
02:38AM EDT 
vertical line <---- Guilty of that many, many times.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149709
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.05.2013
03:13AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

To me CURRENTLY, nothing is "special" or more than others ........thats Buddhism . Whether a serial killer with all his act or Dalai Lama with all his words is ALL SAME and EQUAL source of lesson for all to learn to discover , to know , to accept ownselves .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Except you made EQUAL special. So you think the Dalai Lama is no different than a serial killer. That is not Buddhism.
"
.........

"
.........

Except you made EQUAL special. So you think the Dalai Lama is no different than a serial killer. That is not Buddhism.
"
.........

Perhaps you are referring to KNOWLEDGE , yes indeed in KNOWLEDGE Dalai Lama is different than the serial killer but in my current understanding of Buddhism he or even Mr Siddharta himself is SAME and EQUAL to any serial killer or Osama . I wish to debate with you further on this if you agree .

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149712
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.05.2013
04:02AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Quote: "Read, listen, look, understand more.That&apos;s what I meant by "read more."
"
.........

To me , if we attached to beliefs or faith on "who we are" or based on " our knowledge' ......we will always be the one we wish to be and entertaining  the self that we created and increased the self that we had .

Buddhism to me is being AWAKE to aware , aware to realize , realize to accept and accept to further aware ..............so if we glued to the knowledge on " who we are" we will always be the one we already known.

Buddhism is the cast-off , cast-off from the one we glued by our own realization NOT by desire ......................acceptance not desire .

So all knowledge via books , listening to thousands of talk or observing trillions of action is just a tiny part of one learning process .

To me , in each second of our life , we are presented with countless source of lesson to discover ourself , is all up to our will to learn and with the acceptance of all being are SAME and equal .

To me CURRENTLY , there are no referral to Buddhism NOR the words of any monks , any text , any scripture or even the true words from siddharta's mouth ........

All are just a source of learning process .

One can read tons of Buddhism books , memorised all the terminologies or practicing any sitting or chantting ...is all part of one learning process to experience , to learn himself .........there is no right path or wrong path , no truth or false ......thats in my current understanding of Buddhism.

Thks

CSee

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149713
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.05.2013
04:40AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Read, listen, look, understand more.That&apos;s what I meant by "read more."
"
.........

To me , if we attached to beliefs or faith on "who we are" or based on " our knowledge' ......we will always be the one we wish to be and entertaining  the self that we created and increased the self that we had .

Buddhism to me is being AWAKE to aware , aware to realize , realize to accept and accept to further aware ..............so if we glued to the knowledge on " who we are" we will always be the one we already known.

Buddhism is the cast-off , cast-off from the one we glued by our own realization NOT by desire ......................acceptance not desire .

So all knowledge via books , listening to thousands of talk or observing trillions of action is just a tiny part of one learning process .

To me , in each second of our life , we are presented with countless source of lesson to discover ourself , is all up to our will to learn and with the acceptance of all being are SAME and equal .

To me CURRENTLY , there are no referral to Buddhism NOR the words of any monks , any text , any scripture or even the true words from siddharta's mouth ........

All are just a source of learning process .

One can read tons of Buddhism books , memorised all the terminologies or practicing any sitting or chantting ...is all part of one learning process to experience , to learn himself .........there is no right path or wrong path , no truth or false ......thats in my current understanding of Buddhism.

Thks

CSee

"
.........

So why do you keep using words?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149715
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.05.2013
06:54AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Read, listen, look, understand more.That&apos;s what I meant by "read more."
"
.........

To me , if we attached to beliefs or faith on "who we are" or based on " our knowledge&apos; ......we will always be the one we wish to be and entertaining  the self that we created and increased the self that we had .

Buddhism to me is being AWAKE to aware , aware to realize , realize to accept and accept to further aware ..............so if we glued to the knowledge on " who we are" we will always be the one we already known.

Buddhism is the cast-off , cast-off from the one we glued by our own realization NOT by desire ......................acceptance not desire .

So all knowledge via books , listening to thousands of talk or observing trillions of action is just a tiny part of one learning process .

To me , in each second of our life , we are presented with countless source of lesson to discover ourself , is all up to our will to learn and with the acceptance of all being are SAME and equal .

To me CURRENTLY , there are no referral to Buddhism NOR the words of any monks , any text , any scripture or even the true words from siddharta&apos;s mouth ........

All are just a source of learning process .

One can read tons of Buddhism books , memorised all the terminologies or practicing any sitting or chantting ...is all part of one learning process to experience , to learn himself .........there is no right path or wrong path , no truth or false ......thats in my current understanding of Buddhism.

Thks

CSee

"
.........

So why do you keep using words?
"
.........

"
.........

So why do you keep using words?
"
.........

Come on my friend .............I think you could understand what I mean .........words is part of knowledge , human knowledge based on human culture . Is one of the way human communicate with each others .............Buddhism is beyond all knowledge , culture . Words / culture / all actions / our daily works / all activities is part of this NATURAL PROCESS known to me as Buddhism . So in my current understanding , all beings , in all its nature or its activities whether dead or alive ...basicly ALL is Buddhism .

So words , knowledge or anything or everything is tiny part in this process . So when we communicate , at work , doing all action whether killing , loving , making love ,watching others making love , stealing , helping others is all in a PROCESS known to me as Buddhism ........

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149716
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.05.2013
07:03AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Read, listen, look, understand more.That&apos;s what I meant by "read more."
"
.........

To me , if we attached to beliefs or faith on "who we are" or based on " our knowledge&apos; ......we will always be the one we wish to be and entertaining  the self that we created and increased the self that we had .

Buddhism to me is being AWAKE to aware , aware to realize , realize to accept and accept to further aware ..............so if we glued to the knowledge on " who we are" we will always be the one we already known.

Buddhism is the cast-off , cast-off from the one we glued by our own realization NOT by desire ......................acceptance not desire .

So all knowledge via books , listening to thousands of talk or observing trillions of action is just a tiny part of one learning process .

To me , in each second of our life , we are presented with countless source of lesson to discover ourself , is all up to our will to learn and with the acceptance of all being are SAME and equal .

To me CURRENTLY , there are no referral to Buddhism NOR the words of any monks , any text , any scripture or even the true words from siddharta&apos;s mouth ........

All are just a source of learning process .

One can read tons of Buddhism books , memorised all the terminologies or practicing any sitting or chantting ...is all part of one learning process to experience , to learn himself .........there is no right path or wrong path , no truth or false ......thats in my current understanding of Buddhism.

Thks

CSee

"
.........

So why do you keep using words?
"
.........

"
.........

So why do you keep using words?
"
.........

Come on my friend .............I think you could understand what I mean .........words is part of knowledge , human knowledge based on human culture . Is one of the way human communicate with each others .............Buddhism is beyond all knowledge , culture . Words / culture / all actions / our daily works / all activities is part of this NATURAL PROCESS known to me as Buddhism . So in my current understanding , all beings , in all its nature or its activities whether dead or alive ...basicly ALL is Buddhism .

So words , knowledge or anything or everything is tiny part in this process . So when we communicate , at work , doing all action whether killing , loving , making love ,watching others making love , stealing , helping others is all in a PROCESS known to me as Buddhism ........

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

It seems this natural process that you call Buddhism, I just call living as a human being. Is there some reason you call it Buddhism?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149717
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.05.2013
07:40AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Read, listen, look, understand more.That&apos;s what I meant by "read more."
"
.........

To me , if we attached to beliefs or faith on "who we are" or based on " our knowledge&apos; ......we will always be the one we wish to be and entertaining  the self that we created and increased the self that we had .

Buddhism to me is being AWAKE to aware , aware to realize , realize to accept and accept to further aware ..............so if we glued to the knowledge on " who we are" we will always be the one we already known.

Buddhism is the cast-off , cast-off from the one we glued by our own realization NOT by desire ......................acceptance not desire .

So all knowledge via books , listening to thousands of talk or observing trillions of action is just a tiny part of one learning process .

To me , in each second of our life , we are presented with countless source of lesson to discover ourself , is all up to our will to learn and with the acceptance of all being are SAME and equal .

To me CURRENTLY , there are no referral to Buddhism NOR the words of any monks , any text , any scripture or even the true words from siddharta&apos;s mouth ........

All are just a source of learning process .

One can read tons of Buddhism books , memorised all the terminologies or practicing any sitting or chantting ...is all part of one learning process to experience , to learn himself .........there is no right path or wrong path , no truth or false ......thats in my current understanding of Buddhism.

Thks

CSee

"
.........

So why do you keep using words?
"
.........

"
.........

So why do you keep using words?
"
.........

Come on my friend .............I think you could understand what I mean .........words is part of knowledge , human knowledge based on human culture . Is one of the way human communicate with each others .............Buddhism is beyond all knowledge , culture . Words / culture / all actions / our daily works / all activities is part of this NATURAL PROCESS known to me as Buddhism . So in my current understanding , all beings , in all its nature or its activities whether dead or alive ...basicly ALL is Buddhism .

So words , knowledge or anything or everything is tiny part in this process . So when we communicate , at work , doing all action whether killing , loving , making love ,watching others making love , stealing , helping others is all in a PROCESS known to me as Buddhism ........

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

It seems this natural process that you call Buddhism, I just call living as a human being. Is there some reason you call it Buddhism?
"
.........

"
.........

It seems this natural process that you call Buddhism, I just call living as a human being. Is there some reason you call it Buddhism?
"
.........

Yes because I realized that I am much more than living as human being ..........human is just a KNOWLEDGE . I am "human being' , living as human being because I of my acceptance on 'who I am" based on my culture , based on the information / the knowledge presented to me  ......Buddhism is NOT limited to exploring human being but is a PROCESS towards emptiness ............  

So living as human being is just a tiny part of Buddhism as in Buddhism even death / birth / survival ...is just part of this process . Buddhism is a PROCESS that I will acept "myself" and eventually freedom from "myself" towards emptiness...so human is just a tiny part .

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149719
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Feb.05.2013
04:07PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

To me CURRENTLY, nothing is "special" or more than others ........thats Buddhism . Whether a serial killer with all his act or Dalai Lama with all his words is ALL SAME and EQUAL source of lesson for all to learn to discover , to know , to accept ownselves .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Except you made EQUAL special. So you think the Dalai Lama is no different than a serial killer. That is not Buddhism.
"
.........

Esoteric is right. CSEe makes the serial killer and the Dalai Lama the same.
They are different. But, CSEe says he can learn from both as if they are the same.
The truth is that what you can learn from a serial killer is different from what you can learn from the Dalai Lama.
Their messages very are different.
But, if one wants to see them as the same ... well, it takes all kinds to make this world.
He has twisted Buddism to mean what he wants it to mean ... much like what happens with religion and the Bible ... mis-interpretation.
Except Buddhism has a very real truth. Something which is verifiable by people who receive and practice the true teachings with the aid of an enlightened master.
This is what keeps Buddhism from being perversed by misconceptions and misinterpretation.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149720
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.05.2013
05:08PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

To me CURRENTLY, nothing is "special" or more than others ........thats Buddhism . Whether a serial killer with all his act or Dalai Lama with all his words is ALL SAME and EQUAL source of lesson for all to learn to discover , to know , to accept ownselves .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Except you made EQUAL special. So you think the Dalai Lama is no different than a serial killer. That is not Buddhism.
"
.........

Esoteric is right. CSEe makes the serial killer and the Dalai Lama the same.
They are different. But, CSEe says he can learn from both as if they are the same.
The truth is that what you can learn from a serial killer is different from what you can learn from the Dalai Lama.
Their messages very are different.
But, if one wants to see them as the same ... well, it takes all kinds to make this world.
He has twisted Buddism to mean what he wants it to mean ... much like what happens with religion and the Bible ... mis-interpretation.
Except Buddhism has a very real truth. Something which is verifiable by people who receive and practice the true teachings with the aid of an enlightened master.
This is what keeps Buddhism from being perversed by misconceptions and misinterpretation.
"
.........

"
.........

Except you made EQUAL special. So you think the Dalai Lama is no different than a serial killer. That is not Buddhism.
"
.........

Esoteric is right. CSEe makes the serial killer and the Dalai Lama the same.
They are different. But, CSEe says he can learn from both as if they are the same.
The truth is that what you can learn from a serial killer is different from what you can learn from the Dalai Lama.
Their messages very are different.
But, if one wants to see them as the same ... well, it takes all kinds to make this world.
He has twisted Buddism to mean what he wants it to mean ... much like what happens with religion and the Bible ... mis-interpretation.
Except Buddhism has a very real truth. Something which is verifiable by people who receive and practice the true teachings with the aid of an enlightened master.
This is what keeps Buddhism from being perversed by misconceptions and misinterpretation.
"
.........

In my current opinion , Buddhism is a PROCESS of ownself acceptance by own will , in own world . All  happenings from ownself or from others is just a SOURCE of information for own learning process to discover ownself towards freedom from the self .

So whether Dalai Lama or Osama is just a lesson provider for me that teaches me , showing me emotions that I could learn to discover my own .

Is human common culture to distingust "right verses wrong" , "true verses false" or " good verses bad".....and this culture creates knowledge and this knowlegde had became a fact that human live on . Human live in the world of own knowledge and they just cant live beyond this world .....so based on human knowledge on what is right , what should be wrong , what is good and what should be bad ....we had the differences of Dalai Lama and Osama ..............

Human choose to accept differences , human choose to accept "special emotion" . So this culture makes Dalai Lama respectable and Osama became an evil man .........

Since human had a culture to accept differences , we had created a system of living .........In human culture YES , I agree that we NEED a system to control for living together , that system is CIVIL LAW. Each country have a law , a commitment for living together .....same as in family , human had created relationship . But Buddhism is BEYOND all culture ................................we must break this culture to advance and progress .

In Buddhism , I see no different but NOW since I am still full of polluted energy , I still learning to accept this .

So in Buddhism , all being regardless what his action or background , he is of SAME and EQUAL to me or any other beings ....he whether is Dalai Lama or Hilter or Osama is just a source of learning , a teacher to me .

In Buddhism , my journey is to discover myself , accept the self and freedom from the self NOT by desire but by self realization .........

If human cant break the culture ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,we will always be human .

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149721
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.05.2013
05:22PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Buddhism to me currently is a PROCESS to discover ownself ....but if human keep on defending the self over an acceptance of what is right , true , good over wrong , false and bad ...........we will creates more self , more suffering . Buddhism is a PROCESS that will DECREASE "the self" , decrease in all emotions , desire , compassion , love , will , ego , greed etc towards emptiness NOT to further increase the self by ego , knowledge , pride .............................

in my oipinion , due to human culture , due to acceptance of knowledge being the basis of life ....human still cant understand what Siddharta's words by being " AWAKE and EMPTY"...............................instead due to human huge desire , emotions we became more ego , more selfish thinkling that we know , have faith in what we think is right .

Buddhism is THE ONLY  PROCESS that NATURAL to all being whether living or not.......and is not limited to human knowledge .

If human still live on in knowledge , human will always be human...the one that they know NOT the one that they should know...................................we will be recycle in birth / survival/ death and continue this process until we learned and have NO will to continue this cycle........................Buddhism is the PROCESS to end existence , all existence back into nothingness .

Please do debate with me for my own learning process .

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149722
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.05.2013
07:07PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Read, listen, look, understand more.That&apos;s what I meant by "read more."
"
.........

To me , if we attached to beliefs or faith on "who we are" or based on " our knowledge&apos; ......we will always be the one we wish to be and entertaining  the self that we created and increased the self that we had .

Buddhism to me is being AWAKE to aware , aware to realize , realize to accept and accept to further aware ..............so if we glued to the knowledge on " who we are" we will always be the one we already known.

Buddhism is the cast-off , cast-off from the one we glued by our own realization NOT by desire ......................acceptance not desire .

So all knowledge via books , listening to thousands of talk or observing trillions of action is just a tiny part of one learning process .

To me , in each second of our life , we are presented with countless source of lesson to discover ourself , is all up to our will to learn and with the acceptance of all being are SAME and equal .

To me CURRENTLY , there are no referral to Buddhism NOR the words of any monks , any text , any scripture or even the true words from siddharta&apos;s mouth ........

All are just a source of learning process .

One can read tons of Buddhism books , memorised all the terminologies or practicing any sitting or chantting ...is all part of one learning process to experience , to learn himself .........there is no right path or wrong path , no truth or false ......thats in my current understanding of Buddhism.

Thks

CSee

"
.........

So why do you keep using words?
"
.........

"
.........

So why do you keep using words?
"
.........

Come on my friend .............I think you could understand what I mean .........words is part of knowledge , human knowledge based on human culture . Is one of the way human communicate with each others .............Buddhism is beyond all knowledge , culture . Words / culture / all actions / our daily works / all activities is part of this NATURAL PROCESS known to me as Buddhism . So in my current understanding , all beings , in all its nature or its activities whether dead or alive ...basicly ALL is Buddhism .

So words , knowledge or anything or everything is tiny part in this process . So when we communicate , at work , doing all action whether killing , loving , making love ,watching others making love , stealing , helping others is all in a PROCESS known to me as Buddhism ........

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

It seems this natural process that you call Buddhism, I just call living as a human being. Is there some reason you call it Buddhism?
"
.........

"
.........

It seems this natural process that you call Buddhism, I just call living as a human being. Is there some reason you call it Buddhism?
"
.........

Yes because I realized that I am much more than living as human being ..........human is just a KNOWLEDGE . I am "human being' , living as human being because I of my acceptance on 'who I am" based on my culture , based on the information / the knowledge presented to me  ......Buddhism is NOT limited to exploring human being but is a PROCESS towards emptiness ............  

So living as human being is just a tiny part of Buddhism as in Buddhism even death / birth / survival ...is just part of this process . Buddhism is a PROCESS that I will acept "myself" and eventually freedom from "myself" towards emptiness...so human is just a tiny part .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

When you figure out and accept "living as a human being" just as it is, without any "much more than" or "just a tiny part," then you will not have any more need to be free from "self".
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149724
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.05.2013
08:49PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Read, listen, look, understand more.That&apos;s what I meant by "read more."
"
.........

To me , if we attached to beliefs or faith on "who we are" or based on " our knowledge&apos; ......we will always be the one we wish to be and entertaining  the self that we created and increased the self that we had .

Buddhism to me is being AWAKE to aware , aware to realize , realize to accept and accept to further aware ..............so if we glued to the knowledge on " who we are" we will always be the one we already known.

Buddhism is the cast-off , cast-off from the one we glued by our own realization NOT by desire ......................acceptance not desire .

So all knowledge via books , listening to thousands of talk or observing trillions of action is just a tiny part of one learning process .

To me , in each second of our life , we are presented with countless source of lesson to discover ourself , is all up to our will to learn and with the acceptance of all being are SAME and equal .

To me CURRENTLY , there are no referral to Buddhism NOR the words of any monks , any text , any scripture or even the true words from siddharta&apos;s mouth ........

All are just a source of learning process .

One can read tons of Buddhism books , memorised all the terminologies or practicing any sitting or chantting ...is all part of one learning process to experience , to learn himself .........there is no right path or wrong path , no truth or false ......thats in my current understanding of Buddhism.

Thks

CSee

"
.........

So why do you keep using words?
"
.........

"
.........

So why do you keep using words?
"
.........

Come on my friend .............I think you could understand what I mean .........words is part of knowledge , human knowledge based on human culture . Is one of the way human communicate with each others .............Buddhism is beyond all knowledge , culture . Words / culture / all actions / our daily works / all activities is part of this NATURAL PROCESS known to me as Buddhism . So in my current understanding , all beings , in all its nature or its activities whether dead or alive ...basicly ALL is Buddhism .

So words , knowledge or anything or everything is tiny part in this process . So when we communicate , at work , doing all action whether killing , loving , making love ,watching others making love , stealing , helping others is all in a PROCESS known to me as Buddhism ........

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

It seems this natural process that you call Buddhism, I just call living as a human being. Is there some reason you call it Buddhism?
"
.........

"
.........

It seems this natural process that you call Buddhism, I just call living as a human being. Is there some reason you call it Buddhism?
"
.........

Yes because I realized that I am much more than living as human being ..........human is just a KNOWLEDGE . I am "human being&apos; , living as human being because I of my acceptance on &apos;who I am" based on my culture , based on the information / the knowledge presented to me  ......Buddhism is NOT limited to exploring human being but is a PROCESS towards emptiness ............  

So living as human being is just a tiny part of Buddhism as in Buddhism even death / birth / survival ...is just part of this process . Buddhism is a PROCESS that I will acept "myself" and eventually freedom from "myself" towards emptiness...so human is just a tiny part .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

When you figure out and accept "living as a human being" just as it is, without any "much more than" or "just a tiny part," then you will not have any more need to be free from "self".
"
.........

"
.........

When you figure out and accept "living as a human being" just as it is, without any "much more than" or "just a tiny part," then you will not have any more need to be free from "self".
"
.........

The " NEED to be free from self" in Buddhism is NOT resulted from a desire or a wish or goal ....but freedom from ownself is resulted from own realization by being awake . So is NOT my need to be free from myself but is a condition in a PROCESS known to me as Buddhism .

If we accepted " living as human being" .............yes in knowledge we will be human and experiencing our life and lifes with joy and sorrow ...........we will continue this cycle of birth / life/death because of our will to be "living as human".............so if that is your wish , your will - then that is your journey of learning .

Human culture had created more self .........and enjoying this self ..still all this is also part of Buddhism . One are free to travel from LA directly to Houston or take longer journey to Australia back to Houston ..................is all up to own will nothing is right or wrong , as all being NEED to free its polluted energy and as human we NEED to learn to discover ourself ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and all our action , re-action will teach us . All beings is teacher to me but I will never consider myself as teacher even to a new-born child ......as in my current understanding , Buddhism is all about learning from ownself or others NOT to teach others ................

Thks

CSEe 

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149726
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Feb.05.2013
10:35PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "The " NEED to be free from self" in Buddhism is NOT resulted from a desire or a wish or goal ....but freedom from ownself is resulted from own realization by being awake . So is NOT my need to be free from myself but is a condition in a PROCESS known to me as Buddhism .

You say Buddhism is a process. Then, explain the process and give us the stages of change that one must go through to have own realization. And what does being awake mean to you? How does being awake help in your own realization?

If we accepted " living as human being" .............yes in knowledge we will be human and experiencing our life and lifes with joy and sorrow ...........we will continue this cycle of birth / life/death because of our will to be "living as human".............so if that is your wish , your will - then that is your journey of learning .

Human culture had created more self .........and enjoying this self ..still all this is also part of Buddhism . One are free to travel from LA directly to Houston or take longer journey to Australia back to Houston ..................is all up to own will nothing is right or wrong , as all being NEED to free its polluted energy and as human we NEED to learn to discover ourself ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and all our action , re-action will teach us . All beings is teacher to me but I will never consider myself as teacher even to a new-born child ......as in my current understanding , Buddhism is all about learning from ownself or others NOT to teach others ................

If serial killer and Dalai Lama are the same then human culture is also the same to learn Buddhism to have own realization. Why do you blame human culture for creating more self? Sounds to me that you read something and now have made your own interpretation of the words.

Thks

CSEe 

"
.........

You muddle around so much with thoughts of this Buddhism process and everything else. But, what has it changed? What stage of this process are you in?? If you can not tell me this process and what is require to change from one stage to the next then you have not the knowledge to begin ... hahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149727
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.05.2013
10:38PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "
.........

When you figure out and accept "living as a human being" just as it is, without any "much more than" or "just a tiny part," then you will not have any more need to be free from "self".
"
.........

The " NEED to be free from self" in Buddhism is NOT resulted from a desire or a wish or goal ....but freedom from ownself is resulted from own realization by being awake . So is NOT my need to be free from myself but is a condition in a PROCESS known to me as Buddhism .

If we accepted " living as human being" .............yes in knowledge we will be human and experiencing our life and lifes with joy and sorrow ...........we will continue this cycle of birth / life/death because of our will to be "living as human".............so if that is your wish , your will - then that is your journey of learning .

Human culture had created more self .........and enjoying this self ..still all this is also part of Buddhism . One are free to travel from LA directly to Houston or take longer journey to Australia back to Houston ..................is all up to own will nothing is right or wrong , as all being NEED to free its polluted energy and as human we NEED to learn to discover ourself ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and all our action , re-action will teach us . All beings is teacher to me but I will never consider myself as teacher even to a new-born child ......as in my current understanding , Buddhism is all about learning from ownself or others NOT to teach others ................

Thks

CSEe 

"
.........

Where did you learn about this process that you call Buddhism? If you learned it only from your own observation, then you must have observed freedom from your own "self" resulting from your own realization by being awake. But that can't be so, because you have said that you are currently trying to become free from "yourself", and that you want to do that by debating with people on Buddhist websites.

So where did you learn these ideas you have? Because they are not the teachings of Buddhism.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149728
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Feb.06.2013
12:11AM EDT 
vertical line It looks like Zen Buddhism is really a big deal...LOL
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149729
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.06.2013
04:25AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Dear Avisitor , you said " You say Buddhism is a process. Then, explain the process and give us the stages of change that one must go through to have own realization. And what does being awake mean to you? How does being awake help in your own realization?"


Thanks alot Avisitor for this discussion . In my current understanding , Buddhism is NATURAL process of all being regardless their nature so human , animal , plant , micro-orgm , table , dust , rock etc are all in their own process releasing its energy to be empty .

ASs human , this pollted energy is all emotions , desire . compassion , will etc and I will exist and continue to exist as long I still have the desire , the emotion ,the will to exist .

Buddhism is a PROCESS that I will accept myself and eventually freedom from this self .

Realization of this self is caused by ownself and could sparked by an factor but the cause is always ownself ............

Awake to me is understanding on this self on " what we are" not " who are we"..........

In Buddhism , being awake to aware that all being is SAME and EQUAL will put me in a condition to realize " myself" from all sources   

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149730
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.06.2013
04:36AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Dear Avisitor , you said "If serial killer and Dalai Lama are the same then human culture is also the same to learn Buddhism to have own realization. Why do you blame human culture for creating more self? Sounds to me that you read something and now have made your own interpretation of the words. "

In my current understanding of Buddhism , there is NO right or wrong , no true or false or no good or bad in Buddhism ....so human culture , human lifelihood , all action by serial killer or Dalai Lama is PART of own learning process ...part of Buddhism but Buddhism is BEYOND all ..... ..so by human knowledge serial killer is WRONG or BAD but in Buddhism , he is learning and his action is part of his learning process .....

So if a person want to go to London from LA but he travel via India ......that is NOT wrong because that is his choice ..so if the serial killer creating more self , having huge desire and suffer for having that self...thats his choice , his journey by his will in his world ..........but we can learn from him , and his actions teaches us ......

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149731
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.06.2013
04:50AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Dear Avisitor , you said " You muddle around so much with thoughts of this Buddhism process and everything else. But, what has it changed? What stage of this process are you in?? If you can not tell me this process and what is require to change from one stage to the next then you have not the knowledge to begin ... hahaha"

Perhaps is NOT thoughts but perhaps is my realization .what has changed me ? well my friend to me I am progressing in each moment of my journey call life and Buddhism is always about NOW not living in PAST or imagine the future.........so surely I am progressing  with realization , with self awareness each moment .

So I cant tell you I am " what stage" because I am in motion of self discovery and is progressing .

To me Buddhism is NOT something we can write down like writing in a book because our awareness , understanding is ALWAYS subject to change ....

So sir ego makes us stay in one level of awareness , pride makes us defend it ......

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149732
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.06.2013
04:59AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Dear Esoteric , you said " Where did you learn about this process that you call Buddhism? If you learned it only from your own observation, then you must have observed freedom from your own "self" resulting from your own realization by being awake. But that can't be so, because you have said that you are currently trying to become free from "yourself", and that you want to do that by debating with people on Buddhist websites.

So where did you learn these ideas you have? Because they are not the teachings of Buddhism."

Thats my CURRENT undersytanding from my realization resulted from all happenings from ownself or others in my PROCESS known to me as Buddhism.

Dear esoteric , freedom from self is NOT from desire or emotion but from self realization ...I never trying to free me from myself but in Buddhism I will accept myself NATURALLY .......

You see , by debating with others , I learned and progress . I learned NOT only from others question , answer but even from my explaination .......

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149733
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Feb.06.2013
06:33AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "

Dear Avisitor , you said " You muddle around so much with thoughts of this Buddhism process and everything else. But, what has it changed? What stage of this process are you in?? If you can not tell me this process and what is require to change from one stage to the next then you have not the knowledge to begin ... hahaha"

Perhaps is NOT thoughts but perhaps is my realization .what has changed me ? well my friend to me I am progressing in each moment of my journey call life and Buddhism is always about NOW not living in PAST or imagine the future.........so surely I am progressing  with realization , with self awareness each moment .

So I cant tell you I am " what stage" because I am in motion of self discovery and is progressing .

To me Buddhism is NOT something we can write down like writing in a book because our awareness , understanding is ALWAYS subject to change ....

So sir ego makes us stay in one level of awareness , pride makes us defend it ......

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

You have given excuses and provided the reason for you not ever making any progress in your process that you call Buddhism.
Understand that you keep repeating yourself and defending your beliefs ... you stay in one level of awareness. (Your words .. not mine)
When given the method for changing your awareness ... to provide strength in your journey, you dismiss and go back to your old ways.
The truth is that your knowledge is based upon itself. Understanding culture and the words. Thought upon thought. Thinking such and such is the process of Buddhism.
It is not the process of Buddhism you hold ... But your own beliefs.
Instead there is the experiential truth which is beyond thought and beyond mental realization.
Your knowledge isn't wrong ... it is just based upon words and holds no truth, no experience, no Buddha nature ... hahahaha
You have ideas but no spirit to hold truth and present it forth.
To move forward you already know that it is toward emptiness.
So why do you hold onto your own beliefs so ardently??
Down them and move forward ... emptiness ... hahahaha

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149734
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.06.2013
08:22AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Dear Avisitor , you said " You muddle around so much with thoughts of this Buddhism process and everything else. But, what has it changed? What stage of this process are you in?? If you can not tell me this process and what is require to change from one stage to the next then you have not the knowledge to begin ... hahaha"

Perhaps is NOT thoughts but perhaps is my realization .what has changed me ? well my friend to me I am progressing in each moment of my journey call life and Buddhism is always about NOW not living in PAST or imagine the future.........so surely I am progressing  with realization , with self awareness each moment .

So I cant tell you I am " what stage" because I am in motion of self discovery and is progressing .

To me Buddhism is NOT something we can write down like writing in a book because our awareness , understanding is ALWAYS subject to change ....

So sir ego makes us stay in one level of awareness , pride makes us defend it ......

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Dear Avisitor , you said, quote "You have given excuses and provided the reason for you not ever making any progress in your process that you call Buddhism.
Understand that you keep repeating yourself and defending your beliefs ... you stay in one level of awareness. (Your words .. not mine)
When given the method for changing your awareness ... to provide strength in your journey, you dismiss and go back to your old ways.

"
.........

Dear Avisitor , you said, quote "You have given excuses and provided the reason for you not ever making any progress in your process that you call Buddhism.
Understand that you keep repeating yourself and defending your beliefs ... you stay in one level of awareness. (Your words .. not mine)
When given the method for changing your awareness ... to provide strength in your journey, you dismiss and go back to your old ways.

" un-quote

Sorry in advance , Its seem to me you are more concern of ME rather than yourself ,=. Buddhism to me is learning from others to discover ownself and I wish we could debate on our views to move into greater realization on ourself ...but seem to me ( again sorry in advance) and I have reason to believe that you seems have intention to influence me to follow you , to teach me or even living in my world , experiencing my suffering , why ? ............To me Buddhism is tp learn from others for own learning process ......so dear Avisitor , is up to you to believe or not ....I NEVER give any excuses to your question , perhaps my answer is NOT expected or fit in your senses .....I am learning as I progress in debating here , but if you ask me to gauge or measure , I cant simply because this is a PROCESS that never stop , always in motion . Just like you had changed from a child , to a boy , to a adult into old person ...your mind changes ...........so how can it be possible for me to explain to you where I was and where I am heading ? Buddhism is about NOW .........This is CSEe 8.11pm Malaysia time ......... 

Buddhism is a PROCESS that I will experience to discover myself , acceptance of myself and freedom of myself so how is that possible I know how much you know yourself ? So that is the reason , I in current opinion Buddhism is IMPOSSIBLE to be taught EVEN by Mr Siddharta himself ......but one could always learn from others .

 
Dear Avisitor , you said quote -" The truth is that your knowledge is based upon itself. Understanding culture and the words. Thought upon thought. Thinking such and such is the process of Buddhism.
It is not the process of Buddhism you hold ... But your own beliefs.
Instead there is the experiential truth which is beyond thought and beyond mental realization." un-quote

Well , you always free to comment ....thanks for sharing your view on me .......


Dear avisitor , you said , quote :Your knowledge isn&apos;t wrong ... it is just based upon words and holds no truth, no experience, no Buddha nature ... hahahaha
You have ideas but no spirit to hold truth and present it forth.
To move forward you already know that it is toward emptiness.
So why do you hold onto your own beliefs so ardently??
Down them and move forward ... emptiness ... hahahaha" un-quote

Dear Avisitor , I really cant understand why in MOST if not all Buddhism website , this is always happening to me .......people always want me to follow them and make so many suggestion upon me ...thanks anyway my friend , I just hope you could focus on the topic and debate with me on the topic ............forget about me okey , lets focus on debating the topic...

Thks - sincerely

CSEe
"
.........

"
.........
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149735
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.06.2013
10:34AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Dear Avisitor , I really cant understand why in MOST if not all Buddhism website , this is always happening to me .......people always want me to follow them and make so many suggestion upon me ...thanks anyway my friend , I just hope you could focus on the topic and debate with me on the topic ............forget about me okey , lets focus on debating the topic...

Thks - sincerely

CSEe
"
.........



The topic is Zen Buddhism. One of the Three Jewels of Buddhism is the Dharma, the teaching (or learning, however you prefer). Buddhism is a teaching of the dharmas as put down by Buddha and his many followers during his life and after his life. The Buddhist dharma has many words, and many ideas, none of them more or less true than others. Relative truth.

Zen is a teaching beyond words - the practices that teach this dharma. Zen also has many teachings, some with words, but it focuses on the teaching without words. The practices vary, but are founded upon zazen, sitting meditation. There are many many kinds of practice. All activity is practice. All being is practice.

So, everything is dharma, everything is teaching, and everything is practice. This is the same thing CSEe says. Everything CSEe says is correct. But the moment you put words to the blue sky, it is not the blue sky and is also incorrect. Like this, CSEe is both correct and incorrect, every moment, with every word. No amount of debate is going to make these words correct. But these words are already correct, and debate is already correct, if you do not hold onto them like a precious jewel.

CSEe, people do not want you to "follow" them. They, like you, are expressing their selves with speech and words, and tell you what they practice, what they would do, and what you can do to learn dharma through practice. You may do those things or not. Either way, understanding comes from these debates and from practice. This is also Zen. No one should turn anyone away, or believe right and wrong, for that reason. We are all on the same path, for that reason. It can be called Buddhism, or it can be called Zen. I just call it living as a human being. Living every day like this is Zen Buddhism.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149736
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.06.2013
11:03AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

The topic is Zen Buddhism. One of the Three Jewels of Buddhism is the Dharma, the teaching (or learning, however you prefer). Buddhism is a teaching of the dharmas as put down by Buddha and his many followers during his life and after his life. The Buddhist dharma has many words, and many ideas, none of them more or less true than others. Relative truth.

Zen is a teaching beyond words - the practices that teach this dharma. Zen also has many teachings, some with words, but it focuses on the teaching without words. The practices vary, but are founded upon zazen, sitting meditation. There are many many kinds of practice. All activity is practice. All being is practice.

Dear esoteric , you said , Quote " So, everything is dharma, everything is teaching, and everything is practice. This is the same thing CSEe says. Everything CSEe says is correct. But the moment you put words to the blue sky, it is not the blue sky and is also incorrect. Like this, CSEe is both correct and incorrect, every moment, with every word. No amount of debate is going to make these words correct. But these words are already correct, and debate is already correct, if you do not hold onto them like a precious jewel." un-quote

For me currently , in the process of Buddhism there is NO correct or wrong as my intention here is to learn ......not to judge others or request being judge ......I never seek for agreement but I of the opinion I could learn more from dis-agreement .

My debate of debate IS NOT to make thing right or correct but its helps me in my process .........


Dear esoteric , you said , quote " CSEe, people do not want you to "follow" them. They, like you, are expressing their selves with speech and words, and tell you what they practice, what they would do, and what you can do to learn dharma through practice. You may do those things or not. Either way, understanding comes from these debates and from practice. This is also Zen. No one should turn anyone away, or believe right and wrong, for that reason. We are all on the same path, for that reason. It can be called Buddhism, or it can be called Zen. I just call it living as a human being. Living every day like this is Zen Buddhism." un-quote

Sorry my friend ......but you were banned from more than 10 Buddhism website , I think you too will have different view ........I think I had enough reason , experiences to believe this ............

Again , I wish to debate with all in Buddhism and I hope you guys can kleave me alone and focus on the topic not me .Sorry .

Sincerely CSEe 

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149737
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.06.2013
11:08AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

The topic is Zen Buddhism. One of the Three Jewels of Buddhism is the Dharma, the teaching (or learning, however you prefer). Buddhism is a teaching of the dharmas as put down by Buddha and his many followers during his life and after his life. The Buddhist dharma has many words, and many ideas, none of them more or less true than others. Relative truth.

Zen is a teaching beyond words - the practices that teach this dharma. Zen also has many teachings, some with words, but it focuses on the teaching without words. The practices vary, but are founded upon zazen, sitting meditation. There are many many kinds of practice. All activity is practice. All being is practice.

Dear esoteric , you said , Quote " So, everything is dharma, everything is teaching, and everything is practice. This is the same thing CSEe says. Everything CSEe says is correct. But the moment you put words to the blue sky, it is not the blue sky and is also incorrect. Like this, CSEe is both correct and incorrect, every moment, with every word. No amount of debate is going to make these words correct. But these words are already correct, and debate is already correct, if you do not hold onto them like a precious jewel." un-quote

For me currently , in the process of Buddhism there is NO correct or wrong as my intention here is to learn ......not to judge others or request being judge ......I never seek for agreement but I of the opinion I could learn more from dis-agreement .

My debate of debate IS NOT to make thing right or correct but its helps me in my process .........


Dear esoteric , you said , quote " CSEe, people do not want you to "follow" them. They, like you, are expressing their selves with speech and words, and tell you what they practice, what they would do, and what you can do to learn dharma through practice. You may do those things or not. Either way, understanding comes from these debates and from practice. This is also Zen. No one should turn anyone away, or believe right and wrong, for that reason. We are all on the same path, for that reason. It can be called Buddhism, or it can be called Zen. I just call it living as a human being. Living every day like this is Zen Buddhism." un-quote

Sorry my friend ......but you were banned from more than 10 Buddhism website , I think you too will have different view ........I think I had enough reason , experiences to believe this ............

Again , I wish to debate with all in Buddhism and I hope you guys can kleave me alone and focus on the topic not me .Sorry .

Sincerely CSEe 

"
.........

Many people have their own rules. If you got banned from some websites, it's because you broke those rules, whether they were written rules or not. So, that too is part of practice, and something to learn from.

Also, responding to you is very much on the topic.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149738
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.06.2013
11:23AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Dear esoteric , you said "Many people have their own rules. If you got banned from some websites, it's because you broke those rules, whether they were written rules or not. So, that too is part of practice, and something to learn from.

Also, responding to you is very much on the topic" un-quote .

Yes I agree there are rules to follow anywhere ...but as I had said after so many experiences I do have reason to believe otherwise .............

To me , in Buddhism is all about learning from others , we do not need to influence them to agree with us or created desire to agree with others ..............so to me is YOU that interest me , that I wish to learn NOT by judging your path , questioning on your beliefs as I do not need to live in your life to u to learn ..........so to me regardless who you are whether you are Dalai Lama or serial killer .....you always my teacher , same and equal as others being , same and equal as Siddharta or any beings .

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149739
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Feb.06.2013
12:17PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "

Dear Avisitor , I really cant understand why in MOST if not all Buddhism website , this is always happening to me .......people always want me to follow them and make so many suggestion upon me ...thanks anyway my friend , I just hope you could focus on the topic and debate with me on the topic ............forget about me okey , lets focus on debating the topic...

Thks - sincerely

CSEe

...........


Follow?? No, you just want Buddhism your way.
I don't care if you follow or not. It is your understanding of Buddhism that is lacking.
Buddhism isn't a process. It is experiencing the truth of your own nature.
When people tell you the truth, you revert back to "in my current understanding" ....
Your current understanding is just words. Buddhism is more than words.
It is truth in actualization. Not realization. It is living truth ... not just understanding words or knowledge.

You want to focus on topic??
This is the topic. What is real Buddhism??
The truth and not just understanding the words.
Actualization and not mental realization.
Emptiness and not empty words.



vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149740
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.06.2013
09:21PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Dear Avisitor , yopu said , I quote :" Follow?? No, you just want Buddhism your way.
I don't care if you follow or not. It is your understanding of Buddhism that is lacking." un-quote

Sorry in advnce , if you read your writing again , you will see yourself in your writing . Perhaps you had a " faith" that cant be challenged or change ...perhaps is you HAD your "faith" on Buddhism that cant be changed . Sorry if I offended you , I normalkly never comment on others emotions but now as human I think is needed to explain my view .

Your "faith" is clearly shown by believing that my understanding of Buddhism is lacking .....you seems comparing my understanding against your faith . Dear friend at any given time , I FULLY ADMIT my understanding of Buddhism is ALWAYS lacking , that is the reason I always said " in my current understanding" and my sincere intention to learn .........my " current understanding" is always subject to change and is changing each moment without being noted . In Buddhism by being AWAKE to aware ...realization will take place and advance into process of acceptance ......one should never have faith or ego to protect own views ................Dear Avisitor , in my current understanding ,Buddhism is a PROCESS take place NATURALLY with or without self realization .....so if one choose lonbger / more suffering path to discover himself , that is his choice / his learning process and nothing is right or wrong .

 
Dear Avisitor , you said , I quote " Buddhism isn't a process. It is experiencing the truth of your own nature."un-quote

I think you had explaining the similar PROCESS known to me as Buddhism ...to me the TRUTH , is NOT FACT but is THE PROCESS on self discovering and this PROCESS is known to me as BUDDHISM . The only truth in my current understanding is BUDDHISM .


DEar Avisitor , you said I quote " When people tell you the truth, you revert back to "in my current understanding" ....un-quote

people tell me 'the truth?...what makes you so sure what you say is the truth? explain to me please .............from my experience in Buddhism website , I learned emotions and make me discover mine such as EGO , PRIDE ......seems to me is common human culture to say own understanding is right or truth and defended it ...perhaps that is the suffering .............

I had learned that in Buddhism NOTHING is right or wrong , no action is GOOD or bad and there is no true or false . If I see a monk carry feeding Siddharta statues with food , I just learned it trying to find the logic of it and it I cant find it in my own logic , I noted his action and move on ...I might not agree with him NOW perhaps in the future when I move into greater realization I will find the logic ......thats Buddhism , is learning from others NOT to judge others based on own understanding .

Dear Avisitor , my " current understanding " is my realization that my understanding is ALWAYS subject to change .........
Your current understanding is just words. Buddhism is more than words.
It is truth in actualization. Not realization. It is living truth ... not just understanding words or knowledge.

Dear Avisitor , you said and I quote " You want to focus on topic??
This is the topic. What is real Buddhism??
The truth and not just understanding the words.
Actualization and not mental realization.
Emptiness and not empty words." un=quote

There is NO " real Buddhism" to me as Buddhism is not a fact or a finding on a fact but is a PROCESS on self discovery ...so all being is in each on process and there are countless of method of Buddhism ....................

What is you version of " actualization" ? ...what or how could anything be " actual"? Buddhism to me currently is a PROCESS in motion ...

what have you experience that is " actual" ?

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149751
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.06.2013
11:21PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

The topic is Zen Buddhism. One of the Three Jewels of Buddhism is the Dharma, the teaching (or learning, however you prefer). Buddhism is a teaching of the dharmas as put down by Buddha and his many followers during his life and after his life. The Buddhist dharma has many words, and many ideas, none of them more or less true than others. Relative truth.

Zen is a teaching beyond words - the practices that teach this dharma. Zen also has many teachings, some with words, but it focuses on the teaching without words. The practices vary, but are founded upon zazen, sitting meditation. There are many many kinds of practice. All activity is practice. All being is practice.


Dear esoteric , you said , Quote " So, everything is dharma, everything is teaching, and everything is practice. This is the same thing CSEe says. Everything CSEe says is correct. But the moment you put words to the blue sky, it is not the blue sky and is also incorrect. Like this, CSEe is both correct and incorrect, every moment, with every word. No amount of debate is going to make these words correct. But these words are already correct, and debate is already correct, if you do not hold onto them like a precious jewel." un-quote

For me currently , in the process of Buddhism there is NO correct or wrong as my intention here is to learn ......not to judge others or request being judge ......I never seek for agreement but I of the opinion I could learn more from dis-agreement .

My debate of debate IS NOT to make thing right or correct but its helps me in my process .........


Dear esoteric , you said , quote " CSEe, people do not want you to "follow" them. They, like you, are expressing their selves with speech and words, and tell you what they practice, what they would do, and what you can do to learn dharma through practice. You may do those things or not. Either way, understanding comes from these debates and from practice. This is also Zen. No one should turn anyone away, or believe right and wrong, for that reason. We are all on the same path, for that reason. It can be called Buddhism, or it can be called Zen. I just call it living as a human being. Living every day like this is Zen Buddhism." un-quote

Sorry my friend ......but you were banned from more than 10 Buddhism website , I think you too will have different view ........I think I had enough reason , experiences to believe this ............

Again , I wish to debate with all in Buddhism and I hope you guys can kleave me alone and focus on the topic not me .Sorry .

Sincerely CSEe 

"
.........

CSEe, I noticed that you did not comment or debate on the first part of my statement above, in bold, which was the part on the topic in this thread...the topic of Zen Buddhism. You didn't have anything to say about that?

You did comment on my words "both correct and incorrect," by saying that there is "no correct or wrong." So, here is a problem in understanding. You understand "no correct or incorrect," but you do not understand "correct and incorrect?"

I will point you to the Heart Sutra, so that you may understand. It says  "form is emptiness, and emptiness is form." Everything is SAME and EQUAL, and completely empty. But it also says that form is form, and emptiness is emptiness. "In emptiness, no form." So when you drink water, you drink water, and not tea. And when empty, there is no water or tea. You see?

I hope that helps your understanding.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149752
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.07.2013
03:06AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Dear esoteric , you said I quote " The topic is Zen Buddhism. One of the Three Jewels of Buddhism is the Dharma, the teaching (or learning, however you prefer). Buddhism is a teaching of the dharmas as put down by Buddha and his many followers during his life and after his life. The Buddhist dharma has many words, and many ideas, none of them more or less true than others. Relative truthZen is a teaching beyond words - the practices that teach this dharma. Zen also has many teachings, some with words, but it focuses on the teaching without words. The practices vary, but are founded upon zazen, sitting meditation. There are many many kinds of practice. All activity is practice. All being is practice.." un-quote

The reason I do not comment on Zen Buddhism is as you had said " there are many ideas , may words " so for me all this words is just an information to me , a source of lesson same as the pen on my table ...........I choose not to comment because there are terminologies involve and we could engagged in a war of knowledge which I choose not to involve ..........Buddhism is beyond knowledge . I notice many people trying to understand Buddhism via terminologies or the " teaching" ......and many involved in learning via changing KNOWLEDGE via their understnding based on " words" said to be from Mr Siddharta .

To me anything or even the true actual words from Mr siddharta mouth is JUST an information to me SAME and EQUAL as any action by any living or nature by any non-living .....

To me Mr Siddharta words is NOT a referral to Buddhism but just served as information / a source of information for us to discover / experience OWN SELF ....

Buddhism is a PROCESS of all being and Mr Siddharta words is just one of the trillions source ................

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149755
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.07.2013
03:24AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Dear esotric , you said , I quote "CSEe, I noticed that you did not comment or debate on the first part of my statement above, in bold, which was the part on the topic in this thread...the topic of Zen Buddhism. You didn't have anything to say about that?

You did comment on my words "both correct and incorrect," by saying that there is "no correct or wrong." So, here is a problem in understanding. You understand "no correct or incorrect," but you do not understand "correct and incorrect?" unquote

In my current understanding of Buddhism NOTHING is correct or in-correct .......but in human culture YES , we do have  the distinction on correct and in-correct .

In Buddhism all action is just part of learning process for all so " correct or in-correct" is never exist........as long as human accepted " correct and in-correct" we will always creates the differences and confined in human culture .....Buddhism is beyond all culture , beyond understanding of " correct or in-correct".........

   

dear esoteric , you said  I quot "I will point you to the Heart Sutra, so that you may understand. It says  "form is emptiness, and emptiness is form." Everything is SAME and EQUAL, and completely empty. But it also says that form is form, and emptiness is emptiness. "In emptiness, no form." So when you drink water, you drink water, and not tea. And when empty, there is no water or tea. You see?

I hope that helps your understanding." un-qute

I am not trying to imagine others person words or trying to explain others words ...but to me from my understanding ..............I am empty and emptiness is in me , myself is the polluted energy that causes my existence and my existence is becoming me and me has becoming a form of existence .......Buddhism is a PROCESS I discover myself and ME ................and me is always nothingness without any attachment or any form.

So Buddhism will lead me to realize " what am I" , accept " what I am" and freedom of myself and I is always nothingness ...

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149756
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Feb.07.2013
05:04AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line I had learned that in Buddhism NOTHING is right or wrong , no action is GOOD or bad and there is no true or false . If I see a monk carry feeding Siddharta statues with food , I just learned it trying to find the logic of it and it I cant find it in my own logic , I noted his action and move on ...I might not agree with him NOW perhaps in the future when I move into greater realization I will find the logic ......thats Buddhism , is learning from others NOT to judge others based on own understanding .

The eightfold path is:

  Right Understanding
  Right Thoughts
  Right Speech
  Right Action
  Right Livelihood
  Right Effort
  Right Mindfulness
  Right Concentration

It is not "wrong" Understanding or wrong thoughts or wrong speech .... etc, etc.
There is a right way and a wrong way.
And it is only when you have had the actualization of enlightenment or true awakening that you can say there is no right or wrong.
Saying it now without the experience of seeing into your own Buddha nature Is ludicrous.

I tell you that your understanding is lacking and you point that back at me ... hahaha
Very good!! ... however, I'm not the one where everyone is trying to tell you to do right.
Where you must change your path.
Follow? No, go your own way. Cause you have not the sense of truth in your words.

Figure this out ... when Joshua had his satori experience, he was asked to verify it by answering the question .. Does a dog have Buddha nature?
His answer was Mu. Mu means No. But, it is true that dogs have Buddha nature.
Why did he answer that way??????? ...... hahahaha

There is more to Buddhism than your current understanding.
Good Luck to you on your "PROCESS??"  .....   hahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149757
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.07.2013
12:15PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Dear Avisitor , you said , I quote " The eightfold path is:

  Right Understanding
  Right Thoughts
  Right Speech
  Right Action
  Right Livelihood
  Right Effort
  Right Mindfulness
  Right Concentration

" un-quote

Dear Avisitor , that is KNOWLEDGE ........even if this words I heard it directly from Mr Siddharta himself , to me it should me serve as information , a source of learning SAME as the action of a killer or a nature of a tree ............Dear Avisitor , sorry in advance I normally not keen to comment on others path but dont you think you are attached to this so call teaching ? .......Is just a knowledge my friend for you to discover it , experience it in you , realize it ......NOT served as a map to your destination ..........



Dear Avisitor , you said , I quote " It is not "wrong" Understanding or wrong thoughts or wrong speech .... etc, etc.
There is a right way and a wrong way.
And it is only when you have had the actualization of enlightenment or true awakening that you can say there is no right or wrong.
Saying it now without the experience of seeing into your own Buddha nature Is ludicrous." un-quote

Thats is your views and I learned ....but in my current understanding ONLY in KNOWLEDGE by HUMAN CULTURE the is right and wrong way and for me currently I can find any logic in Buddhism .

For example ........

Case (a)

John kill Matt for food.

Is John in wrong way to get the food from Matt ? In knowledge , by human culture , by CIVIL LAW of all country - YES . John is WRONG for killing Matt .........and he need to be purnished . Thats HUMAN CULTURE , my friend because human NEED a system for living together and I agreed .

But in my understanding of Buddhism ...John is Not wrong or right because both person NEED to learn to discover own self . So when John moved into greater realization perhaps he will learned from his action and his regrets will cause suffering to him ... he will learned his anger , love , compassion by his own will . As for Matt , his death is NOT cause by John action because death is part of his purification process , he will die no matter what ... so John action is NOT the cause of Matt death but served as a FACTOR of his death .. Matt is NOT the body and the body is NEVER belong to Matt... Matt will continued his journey as long as he still have the will , the desire to live .......as for Matt family , John action is actually provide a learning lesson for them to discover their emotions , love , greed towards Matt and their anger , hate towards John ..So all is part of learning lesson to all .

Ofcause if Matt is my brother , I will surely kill John because I am currently full of pollutant .

 
Dear Avisitor , you said and I quote " I tell you that your understanding is lacking and you point that back at me ... hahaha
Very good!! ... however, I'm not the one where everyone is trying to tell you to do right.
Where you must change your path.
Follow? No, go your own way. Cause you have not the sense of truth in your words.
" un-quote

I am truly sorry my friend if my words offended you but Buddhism is OWN learning process ......to me yes too many people want me to change but they fail to realize that I am changing in each moment in my journey ....perhaps the one that never change is not me .............so dear friend I understand myself , I understand my intention and to me I am not the one living in others world ................I am learning to accept myself and you and the rest is just a source of my learning ......I learned no matter how or what .


Dear Avisitor , you said I quote "Figure this out ... when Joshua had his satori experience, he was asked to verify it by answering the question .. Does a dog have Buddha nature?
His answer was Mu. Mu means No. But, it is true that dogs have Buddha nature.
Why did he answer that way??????? ...... hahahaha" un-quote

In my current understanding and I choose to accept that emptiness is Buddha ......all living - human , animal , plant , micro-orgsm or non-living - dust , rubbish , door , pen , stone etc is all BUDDHA but with attachment of polluted energy that cause their existance ... as for human , this polluted energy is all emortions , desire , will , love etc .........I do not wish to imagine why because is truly un-fair to him .....I prefer debate not imagine on others words .

Dear Avisitor , you said I quote "There is more to Buddhism than your current understanding.
Good Luck to you on your "PROCESS??"  .....   hahaha" un-quote

YES ofcause my friend , Buddhism is endless process so I really hope you could stay on debating with me . Many people after debating with me for a while ... they stopped and break away ..........I really hope you could stay on .....infact I really hope to debate with any "master" of Buddhism FOR MY LEARNING process ..............

Dear my I am 45 years old and I really hope to understand Buddhism as much as I can before I face my casket .........I also really hope I could share my understanding with my 13 years old daughter so that she will find freedom of life , being less fear / sorrow on sickness , old age or death .............

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149761
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.08.2013
03:17AM EDT 
vertical line Zen Buddhism.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149764
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from frozenaomi
Feb.08.2013
01:36PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line So the stone never learned to fly nor the eagle nor the eagle to hold back the ages.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149765
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Feb.08.2013
03:39PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Dust in the wind
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149766
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from nibble
Feb.08.2013
07:02PM EDT 
vertical line Så slutt å være dust:)

Anyway, I am leaving for las Palmas Sunday morning, just me taking a break from this dried up non-zense and life in general. One week all by myself, looking forward to it.

Not long ago I kinda shuddered of the thought of traveling alone, and was originally intended to go to India with an old friend of mine

Then I kinda realized the very real risk of my him getting pissed at me already on the plane for some cryptic reason only he understands (type of friend that spend most of his time software developing, shying human interaction- thou I can be kinda annoying at times:).

Coupled with my strong suspicions of not getting visas in sensible time for travelling made me curiously Google around yesterday morning looking for backup package tour to wherever- with criteria of -available, -warm and -cheap enough to drop if going to India.

At the end of my morning coffee I had grabbed  one of the two last available trips going from my local airport to las Palmas sunday morning.

At the end of the day I learned the fact that offcource our visa`s was delayed due to technical formalities. My friend had been insistent on handling this delicate visa matter himself, directly with the Indian embassy, even thou most of internet and me insisted it was faster using agency.

So I finished work early today to fix emergency pass (since my real pass still resided in some Indian embassy insistent of sending it back as recommended mail not arriving until Monday earliest). Off course ended up running around half the town looking for a photographer to take my stupid picture since the two photo places I knew of had recently moved.

Now I am very ready to be very alone and free from the background noise in my life, maybe visit Africa if I bother, its just 225 euro for an two way airplane ticket to Morocco from there, or maybe just getting drunk at the local bar. Anyway it will be fun, and much cheaper than India (I hope:).

So my point?? Just that I`m going to hot beaches, bikini babes, weird drinks, cheesy music, having no hurry nor any plan or responsibility (or moral:) whatsoever, while U must  grovel in your pain and misery! Probable freezing cold where U are! Ha ha ha



vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149767
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.08.2013
07:08PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Så slutt å være dust:)

Anyway, I am leaving for las Palmas Sunday morning, just me taking a break from this dried up non-zense and life in general. One week all by myself, looking forward to it.

Not long ago I kinda shuddered of the thought of traveling alone, and was originally intended to go to India with an old friend of mine

Then I kinda realized the very real risk of my him getting pissed at me already on the plane for some cryptic reason only he understands (type of friend that spend most of his time software developing, shying human interaction- thou I can be kinda annoying at times:).

Coupled with my strong suspicions of not getting visas in sensible time for travelling made me curiously Google around yesterday morning looking for backup package tour to wherever- with criteria of -available, -warm and -cheap enough to drop if going to India.

At the end of my morning coffee I had grabbed  one of the two last available trips going from my local airport to las Palmas sunday morning.

At the end of the day I learned the fact that offcource our visa`s was delayed due to technical formalities. My friend had been insistent on handling this delicate visa matter himself, directly with the Indian embassy, even thou most of internet and me insisted it was faster using agency.

So I finished work early today to fix emergency pass (since my real pass still resided in some Indian embassy insistent of sending it back as recommended mail not arriving until Monday earliest). Off course ended up running around half the town looking for a photographer to take my stupid picture since the two photo places I knew of had recently moved.

Now I am very ready to be very alone and free from the background noise in my life, maybe visit Africa if I bother, its just 225 euro for an two way airplane ticket to Morocco from there, or maybe just getting drunk at the local bar. Anyway it will be fun, and much cheaper than India (I hope:).

So my point?? Just that I`m going to hot beaches, bikini babes, weird drinks, cheesy music, having no hurry nor any plan or responsibility (or moral:) whatsoever, while U must  grovel in your pain and misery! Probable freezing cold where U are! Ha ha ha



"
.........

Enjoy yourself. And don't forget to...whatever. :-)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149768
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from nibble
Feb.09.2013
07:03AM EDT 
vertical line Thnx, will do:)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149775
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Riverstone
Feb.10.2013
01:06AM EDT 
vertical line There was a recognition a long time ago that "Zen" did not belong to Buddhism alone.  I try, but sometimes forget, to specify that when I am talking about Zen, I mean Zen Buddhism.  Zen Buddhism can really only be learned from a qualified Zen Teacher, it is more a matter of "culture", the culture of Zen Buddhism. Zen however, the quality which arrives when mind and body synchronize, this is something that can happen in archery, sports of any kind, an artist often reaches this synchronized place of mind and body.

My favorite person here, Leoj gets all caught up in the "no-thought" idea.  It is this synchronization of mind and body that is this zero point.  Yet even as an artist reaches this spot, he does think, he reaches over and chooses the appropriate colors he may think of lunch, and then, he synchronizes mind and body once again and begins working again. 

Also, many religions teach devices which induce this non-dual, non-discursive state.  Aboriginal dance ceremonies, sensory deprivation techniques, etcetera and so on.  These can be made to serve a multitude of purpose.  Zen Buddhism brings it to the frame work of compassion and wisdom.

ZEN by itself is a human quality, one that we all use.  Most do not even know they are using it.  And often Zen students don't get that they are successfully "doing it", because it has become so conceptualized. 

Down to the letter Zen is a word, like Love is a word, we do not confuse the word Love for Love. 

Also, Zen has escaped even these descriptions. It has been used to promote employment agencies and day spas.  Thus you get Zen vs Zen Buddhism. 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149782
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from nibble
Feb.10.2013
02:19AM EDT 
vertical line ha ha, sitting on the plane (free wifi!), finally on my way to somwhere warm that is neither hell nor purgatory! Anyway, hang in there river, taking a break is much recomanded but do come back please, not to many people here with formal zen training
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149792
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.10.2013
05:13AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "There was a recognition a long time ago that "Zen" did not belong to Buddhism alone.  I try, but sometimes forget, to specify that when I am talking about Zen, I mean Zen Buddhism.  Zen Buddhism can really only be learned from a qualified Zen Teacher, it is more a matter of "culture", the culture of Zen Buddhism. Zen however, the quality which arrives when mind and body synchronize, this is something that can happen in archery, sports of any kind, an artist often reaches this synchronized place of mind and body.

My favorite person here, Leoj gets all caught up in the "no-thought" idea.  It is this synchronization of mind and body that is this zero point.  Yet even as an artist reaches this spot, he does think, he reaches over and chooses the appropriate colors he may think of lunch, and then, he synchronizes mind and body once again and begins working again. 

Also, many religions teach devices which induce this non-dual, non-discursive state.  Aboriginal dance ceremonies, sensory deprivation techniques, etcetera and so on.  These can be made to serve a multitude of purpose.  Zen Buddhism brings it to the frame work of compassion and wisdom.

ZEN by itself is a human quality, one that we all use.  Most do not even know they are using it.  And often Zen students don't get that they are successfully "doing it", because it has become so conceptualized. 

Down to the letter Zen is a word, like Love is a word, we do not confuse the word Love for Love. 

Also, Zen has escaped even these descriptions. It has been used to promote employment agencies and day spas.  Thus you get Zen vs Zen Buddhism. 
"
.........

When we define words, what makes each word distinct from another is its difference from others. You make it sound like the difference with Zen Buddhism is compassion and wisdom, as if other practices of "Zen" (or your ideas of Zen as separate from Buddhism) do not contain wisdom or compassion. Which therefore sounds as if Buddhism is what grants Zen wisdom and compassion. Or discipline. Or safety. Or...what? What exactly is it that differentiates Zen from Zen Buddhism?

I practiced Zen Buddhism formally for a short while. There are many differences that I have seen. Practicing with the guidance of a teacher. Practicing with the specific teaching of Buddhism. Practicing with others under the same Buddhist  teaching, as opposed to alone or with others of different teachings. Rituals of conditioning, like chanting, and bowing, and wearing particular clothing for practice.

Many people say, "Oh, real Zen Buddhism cannot be replaced! There are things you learn in real Zen Buddhism that are not learned anywhere else!" So, here's what practicing Zen as a Zen Buddhist taught me:

Practicing with the guidance of a teacher taught me what it's like to practice with the guidance of a teacher. Practicing with others under the same Buddhist teaching taught me what it's like to practice with others under the same Buddhist teaching. Rituals of conditioning, like chanting, and bowing, and wearing particular clothing for practice, taught me what it is like to practice those things, under those conditions.

I have also practiced Zen in many other ways. Ways that I couldn't practice at a Zen center, with a teacher, or with a sangha. The most important part of Zen, with or  without the Buddhism, is
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149795
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from IZIZIZ
Feb.10.2013
06:19AM EDT 
vertical line

Zen. Zen Buddhism???

????????????????????
A monk asked Nansen, "Is there any Dharma that has not been preached to the people?"
?????
Nansen answered, "There is."
?????????????
"What is the truth that has not been taught?" asked the monk.
???????????????
Nansen said, "It is not mind; it is not Buddha; it is not things."

Mumon's Comment
???????????????????????
At this question, Nansen used up all his treasure and was not a little confused.

Mumon's Verse ??
?????
?????
?????
?????
Talking too much spoils your virtue;
Silence is truly unequaled.
Let the mountains become the sea;
I'll give you no comment.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149796
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from frozenaomi
Feb.10.2013
11:45AM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line Quote: "There was a recognition a long time ago that "Zen" did not belong to Buddhism alone.  I try, but sometimes forget, to specify that when I am talking about Zen, I mean Zen Buddhism.  Zen Buddhism can really only be learned from a qualified Zen Teacher, it is more a matter of "culture", the culture of Zen Buddhism. Zen however, the quality which arrives when mind and body synchronize, this is something that can happen in archery, sports of any kind, an artist often reaches this synchronized place of mind and body.

My favorite person here, Leoj gets all caught up in the "no-thought" idea.  It is this synchronization of mind and body that is this zero point.  Yet even as an artist reaches this spot, he does think, he reaches over and chooses the appropriate colors he may think of lunch, and then, he synchronizes mind and body once again and begins working again. 

Also, many religions teach devices which induce this non-dual, non-discursive state.  Aboriginal dance ceremonies, sensory deprivation techniques, etcetera and so on.  These can be made to serve a multitude of purpose.  Zen Buddhism brings it to the frame work of compassion and wisdom.

ZEN by itself is a human quality, one that we all use.  Most do not even know they are using it.  And often Zen students don't get that they are successfully "doing it", because it has become so conceptualized. 

Down to the letter Zen is a word, like Love is a word, we do not confuse the word Love for Love. 

Also, Zen has escaped even these descriptions. It has been used to promote employment agencies and day spas.  Thus you get Zen vs Zen Buddhism. 
"
.........

Thank you Riverstone.  I really liked that.  Especially, "Down to the letter Zen is a word, like Love is a word, we do not confuse the word Love for Love." 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149799
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Feb.10.2013
01:46PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Zen. Zen Buddhism???

????????????????????
A monk asked Nansen, "Is there any Dharma that has not been preached to the people?"
?????
Nansen answered, "There is."
?????????????
"What is the truth that has not been taught?" asked the monk.
???????????????
Nansen said, "It is not mind; it is not Buddha; it is not things."

Mumon's Comment
???????????????????????
At this question, Nansen used up all his treasure and was not a little confused.

Mumon's Verse ??
?????
?????
?????
?????
Talking too much spoils your virtue;
Silence is truly unequaled.
Let the mountains become the sea;
I'll give you no comment.

"
.........

Yeah... exactly... Stop Thinking...
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149802
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.10.2013
03:19PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Zen. Zen Buddhism???

????????????????????
A monk asked Nansen, "Is there any Dharma that has not been preached to the people?"
?????
Nansen answered, "There is."
?????????????
"What is the truth that has not been taught?" asked the monk.
???????????????
Nansen said, "It is not mind; it is not Buddha; it is not things."

Mumon's Comment
???????????????????????
At this question, Nansen used up all his treasure and was not a little confused.

Mumon's Verse ??
?????
?????
?????
?????
Talking too much spoils your virtue;
Silence is truly unequaled.
Let the mountains become the sea;
I'll give you no comment.

"
.........

Yeah... exactly... Stop Thinking...
"
.........

Stop thinking does not mean stop thinking. Silence does not mean stop talking. Let the mountains become the sea, leave everything unsaid and undone. Let the mountain be a mountain, and the sea be the sea, and words and thoughts flow unhindered like a river from mountains to sea, with no comment.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149805
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.10.2013
03:51PM EDT 
vertical line Too many words. But look, and you'll get the point.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149808
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Feb.10.2013
08:12PM EDT 
vertical line Why so you insists on thinking and talking..lol.. are they of any value?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149811
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.10.2013
09:07PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Just sharing ,to me Buddhism is a PROCESS to discover ownselve of all own emotions / desire / compassion / love / greed / ego etc leading to acceptance of it and freedom of it .................for human from our knowledge by parent , culture , education , from local sociaty etc has created experiences , knowledge , understanding leading to creation of a " self"......this self is the collection of all emotions , desire , love , compassion , knowledge , culture and the attachment of the emotions developed the mind ...............human attached to his mind as the reflection of own emotions and always refering to this mind as a tool for all action / re-action etc ............the refering causes thinking . Thinking is perhaps an action refering to own mind resulted from own emotions / desire / love etc .................

In my current understanding in Buddhism , "thinking" is a process of exploration without the attachment of ownself as a referal but thinking is exploration of all as a learning tools to the discovery of ownself .

So in short we think to discover our own self NOT thinking by own emotions ...........

In human culture , we think to create KNOWLEDGE and we attached to this KNOWLEDGE and act as a basis of our understanding . In my current understanding of Buddhism , we think as part of our PROCESS of learning to understand own emotions , desire , etc leading to acceptance of what we are ............without attachment of any understanding but is a continue process / always in motion into greater realization of own selve....................

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149812
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from zenmanstan
Feb.10.2013
09:15PM EDT 
Email zenmanstan
vertical line

zen is the good and the bad of all everything the totality

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149813
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.10.2013
09:37PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "

zen is the good and the bad of all everything the totality

"
.........

"
.........

To me perhaps Buddhism is a PROCESS freedom of KNOWING the " good" or the " bad" .....the "true" or the "false" and the "right" and "the "wrong".

In human culture , KNOWLEDGE had became a BASIS of all action , re-action , search or exploration . In my current understanding of Buddhism there is no good or bad , no true or false and no right and wrong as all action / re-actions / intention is a learning process of all beings ..............................

 Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149814
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Feb.10.2013
10:11PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "To me perhaps Buddhism is a PROCESS freedom of KNOWING the " good" or the " bad" .....the "true" or the "false" and the "right" and "the "wrong".

In human culture , KNOWLEDGE had became a BASIS of all action , re-action , search or exploration . In my current understanding of Buddhism there is no good or bad , no true or false and no right and wrong as all action / re-actions / intention is a learning process of all beings ..............................

 Thks

CSEe

"
.........

You have said that the good and bad are the same and that a serial killer and Buddha is the same.
Then how can you know the difference??
How can you know good and bad?? No right?? No wrong??
Your daughter is the same as dirt under your feet??
You really don't understand Buddhism ... do you???


Hmmm ... seems like you just say whatever it is that comes to your mind
Like ... "In my current understanding, .... " .... hahahaha

Your process is long and tedious.
Please complete your process and then come enlighten us ... hahahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149815
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.10.2013
10:49PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Dear Avisitor , you asked and I quote " You have said that the good and bad are the same and that a serial killer and Buddha is the same.
Then how can you know the difference??How can you know good and bad?? No right?? No wrong??
" Un-quote

Dear Avisitor , as I had explained to you many times , I know the good or the bad FROM my knowledge as human , but Buddhism to me IS BEYOND knowledge ...Buddhism is  a PROCESS of discovering own selve so all action / re-action is a source of learning to discover own emotions so whether is the action of Osama or the words of Dalai Lama is SAME and EQUAL source of learning to me ........if human attached to their knowledge of what is right , true , good verses wrong , false and bad  as the basis of their path , they will always creates more self , gain knowledge , developed more ego and increased more emotions ............Buddhism is a PROCESS of own selve discovery , decreasing the self leading to emptiness NOT to further increased the self . One is taking longer / more suffering path to emptiness of increased self .

Dear Avisitor , you asked I quote "Your daughter is the same as dirt under your feet?? un-quote

Yes , not just my shoe but even yours .......thats is Buddhism . But currently due to my polluted energy of self and my attachment on myself ...my daughter is my ultimate desire , above all ...........................Buddhism is a PROCESS that I will understand and accept that she NEVER belong to me and I never owned her . She is SAME and EQUAL to all being in her own process of Buddhism that NEVER connected to me .....


Dear Avisitor , you asked I quote "You really don't understand Buddhism ... do you???
" un-quote

Sometime I wonder why do people come here , wanted to "discuss" Buddhism with others , is because THEY think they KNOW Buddhism or want to know Buddhism ?

I am here because I want to learn from all in my PROCESS of knowing , discovering , understanding myself ...this PROCESS is Buddhism .............................

Dear Avisitor , you said I quote "Hmmm ... seems like you just say whatever it is that comes to your mind Like ... "In my current understanding, .... " .... hahahaha" un-quote

YES , because I never attached any faith EVEN to myself .....to me whatever I said NOW is CSEe at  10.36am malaysia time.......so perhaps CSEe will have different view after 10.36am................................that is what I meant by "  in my current understanding"...........but sorry in advance seems to me there are people out there seems to already found their ultimate faith , the ultimate truth, the confimred answer  that will NEVER change on buddhism and even wrote books on their faith ....to me how can it be possible to write down something that is constant changing ? ..............................

Dear Avisitor , you said I quote " Your process is long and tedious.
Please complete your process and then come enlighten us ... hahahaha"un-quote

YES , if you refering to Buddhism . YES is a LONG and SUFFERING process to accept ownselve ...is a long and tedious process to decrease my love , my desire , my emotion for my body , my love for my wife , parent , daughter .....is long and suffering process to accept my love is actually same and equal as all my suffering .........................is LONG and tedious process to accept that I NEVER owned my body and if this body infacted with cancer virus , that is NEVER connected to me .................is long and tedious process for me currently to accept my daughter is SAME and EQUAL with the ant omn your table ....................

WHY ? Because I still attached on myself ........................................the same self that causes my existence ...............Buddhism is a PROCESS freedom of this self and YES is long and suffering ...................

Dear Avisitor , how can I come back if I FREE of myself ? Because if I am free of myself ...I will be EMPTY and there is NOTHING in emptiness .........................Buddhism is a PROCESS leading to NOBODY not to become SOMEBODY .........................

Thks

CSEe


vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149817
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.10.2013
10:57PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Dear Avisitor and all ...I am sincerely wish to learn from debating so I really hope to debate with as many people as possible on each own understanding of buddhism FOR MY OWN LEARNING PROCESS ...

For the record , please only use simple English languange without any terminologies that used in Buddhism ......................I really welcome any master for debate in here or email me as fomains@gmail.com

again my purpose is to learn ...FAST . Time seems running out for me .

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149818
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Feb.11.2013
12:56AM EDT 
vertical line Dear Avisitor.... Stop Thinking...lol

stop thinking
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149819
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Feb.11.2013
01:00AM EDT 
vertical line Dear All... Stop Thinking... just eat watermelon...lol...
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149820
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.11.2013
01:15AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Quote: "Dear All... Stop Thinking... just eat watermelon...lol... "
.........

YES . But still eating watermelon NEED thinking .................I need to think to cut it , take it to the mouth and eat it ...............

If one have desire to stop thinking , one will always attached to the self of avoiding "trhinking"....thinking the way to stop thinking ...one will never free from thinking ...

Buddhism is a PROCESS will decreasing all emotions  leading to end of all desire . end of all emotions  end of all will ....and freedom of the self . Once free from self ...the mind will stop and there will be NO thinking ........as there will be no mind .....just emptiness ............,so in Buddhism " stop thinking" is NEVER resulted from a desire or a wish or a goal but is the condition of acceptance .....realization and in emptiness . 

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149821
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Feb.11.2013
02:22AM EDT 
vertical line Ok of you are all hard headed.. good luck..lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149822
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.11.2013
02:55AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

again my purpose is to learn ...FAST . Time seems running out for me .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Why does time seem to be running out for you?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149823
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.11.2013
02:58AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Ok of you are all hard headed.. good luck..lol "
.........

Dear Mr. Hard Head. You were so busy stopping thinking, you also stopped looking.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149824
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.11.2013
04:22AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

again my purpose is to learn ...FAST . Time seems running out for me .


Thks


CSEe

"
.........

Why does time seem to be running out for you?
"
.........
Because death can happens any moments
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149825
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.11.2013
04:35AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

again my purpose is to learn ...FAST . Time seems running out for me .


Thks


CSEe

"
.........

Why does time seem to be running out for you?
"
.........
Because death can happens any moments
"
.........

And then what?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149826
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.11.2013
05:31AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

again my purpose is to learn ...FAST . Time seems running out for me .


Thks


CSEe

"
.........

Why does time seem to be running out for you?
"
.........
Because death can happens any moments "
.........

And then what?
"

"
.........

Why does time seem to be running out for you?
"
.........
Because death can happens any moments
"
.........

And then what?
"

I am still learning my friend ...learning to accept death so I need to learn to face my casket ..........in Buddhism, I found peace and my fear on death had decreased .....the more i debate with others , the more I learned to discover myself , the more I found peace ........I feel less fear .....that is why I hope to debate with all , is to learn . I accept that death can happens any moment , casket is for the dead not for the old.

My understanding of Buddhism is never stay infact I always chakllkenge it , question it and progress from it ........

Thks

CSEe  

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149827
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Feb.11.2013
08:54AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Dear Avisitor.... Stop Thinking...lol

stop thinking
"
.........

When and for how long??
And when I do stop thinking then what am I to expect ... hahahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149828
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Feb.12.2013
02:00AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

again my purpose is to learn ...FAST . Time seems running out for me .


Thks


CSEe

"
.........

Why does time seem to be running out for you?
"
.........
Because death can happens any moments "
.........

And then what?
"

"
.........

Why does time seem to be running out for you?
"
.........
Because death can happens any moments
"
.........

And then what?
"

I am still learning my friend ...learning to accept death so I need to learn to face my casket ..........in Buddhism, I found peace and my fear on death had decreased .....the more i debate with others , the more I learned to discover myself , the more I found peace ........I feel less fear .....that is why I hope to debate with all , is to learn . I accept that death can happens any moment , casket is for the dead not for the old.

My understanding of Buddhism is never stay infact I always chakllkenge it , question it and progress from it ........

Thks

CSEe  

"
.........

That is why you are afraid of death because you are thinking about it. Stop thinking and where is death...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149837
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from IZIZIZ
Feb.12.2013
06:39AM EDT 
vertical line

Talking too much spoils your virtue;

Meaning:


Silence is truly unequaled.

Meaning:


Let the mountains become the sea;

Meaning:


I'll give you no comment.

Meaning:

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149841
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.12.2013
08:49AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

again my purpose is to learn ...FAST . Time seems running out for me .


Thks


CSEe

"
.........

Why does time seem to be running out for you?
"
.........
Because death can happens any moments "
.........

And then what?
"

"
.........

Why does time seem to be running out for you?
"
.........
Because death can happens any moments
"
.........

And then what?
"

I am still learning my friend ...learning to accept death so I need to learn to face my casket ..........in Buddhism, I found peace and my fear on death had decreased .....the more i debate with others , the more I learned to discover myself , the more I found peace ........I feel less fear .....that is why I hope to debate with all , is to learn . I accept that death can happens any moment , casket is for the dead not for the old.

My understanding of Buddhism is never stay infact I always chakllkenge it , question it and progress from it ........

Thks

CSEe  

"
.........

That is why you are afraid of death because you are thinking about it. Stop thinking and where is death...lol
"
.........

"
.........

That is why you are afraid of death because you are thinking about it. Stop thinking and where is death...lol
"
.........

realizing it , my friend .........is already beyond thinking .

thks

csee

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149845
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.12.2013
06:29PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

again my purpose is to learn ...FAST . Time seems running out for me .


Thks


CSEe

"
.........

Why does time seem to be running out for you?
"
.........
Because death can happens any moments "
.........

And then what?
"

"
.........

Why does time seem to be running out for you?
"
.........
Because death can happens any moments
"
.........

And then what?
"

I am still learning my friend ...learning to accept death so I need to learn to face my casket ..........in Buddhism, I found peace and my fear on death had decreased .....the more i debate with others , the more I learned to discover myself , the more I found peace ........I feel less fear .....that is why I hope to debate with all , is to learn . I accept that death can happens any moment , casket is for the dead not for the old.

My understanding of Buddhism is never stay infact I always chakllkenge it , question it and progress from it ........

Thks

CSEe  

"
.........

That is why you are afraid of death because you are thinking about it. Stop thinking and where is death...lol
"
.........

My best friend died in December, leaving a widow, and many sad friends and family.

Another good friend died two weeks ago, with a heart attack at 40.

My grandmother died on Friday.

There it is, without thinking about it.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149857
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Feb.12.2013
08:05PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line When one is hungry, one eats
When one is tired, one rests
When one's friends or family dies, one is sad

If you cut us ... do we not bleed??
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149864
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.12.2013
09:46PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

again my purpose is to learn ...FAST . Time seems running out for me .


Thks


CSEe

"
.........

Why does time seem to be running out for you?
"
.........
Because death can happens any moments "
.........

And then what?
"

"
.........

Why does time seem to be running out for you?
"
.........
Because death can happens any moments
"
.........

And then what?
"

I am still learning my friend ...learning to accept death so I need to learn to face my casket ..........in Buddhism, I found peace and my fear on death had decreased .....the more i debate with others , the more I learned to discover myself , the more I found peace ........I feel less fear .....that is why I hope to debate with all , is to learn . I accept that death can happens any moment , casket is for the dead not for the old.

My understanding of Buddhism is never stay infact I always chakllkenge it , question it and progress from it ........

Thks

CSEe  

"
.........

That is why you are afraid of death because you are thinking about it. Stop thinking and where is death...lol
"
.........

My best friend died in December, leaving a widow, and many sad friends and family.

Another good friend died two weeks ago, with a heart attack at 40.

My grandmother died on Friday.

There it is, without thinking about it.
"
.........

"
.........

That is why you are afraid of death because you are thinking about it. Stop thinking and where is death...lol
"
.........

My best friend died in December, leaving a widow, and many sad friends and family.

Another good friend died two weeks ago, with a heart attack at 40.

My grandmother died on Friday.

There it is, without thinking about it.
"
.........

dear esoteric , sorry in advance you seems not just thinking of it but remembered it .....YES your story is common for every one , every where . My friend lost 5 members in his family , both his parent , his brother & sister and  his grand mom in a car accident leaving he alone in this world .......

YES this is suffering . Lost of love one is suffering to all but perhaps Buddhism is the best answer to all questions ...................is no a issue whether to think or not to think about suffering but rather learning from it . It sound very easy but infact it seems impossible to achieve .

In Buddhism , NOTHING is belong to me even my body and each being is in their own purification process leading to emptiness ....so death / birth / survival is just part of the process .........death is not the end and life is not the begining . So all happenings is a source for all to learn , to discover own emotions ....

In Buddhism , by understanding & acceptance more and more of our selves , we will decrease of all emotions . We will having LESS attached to desire , less love , less compassion , less fear , less greed , less ego etc ...so by less having emotions , we will decrease "ourselves" and with a decreased self , we will experience less burden , less attachment and such condition perhaps is easily mis-taken as "happy" .

With " less self" we will see no different , we will have no special love , we will see our family same and equal as other being .....we will treat all being with same and equal emotions / desire ................................

With less self , we will have lesser burden ....and the more we into Buddhism , the lesser our burden on self and this will lead to a condition of " no self" . A condition of no desire , no emotion and even no will to exist .

We will be nothing without any emotions or any will ...........we will end our existance be in emptiness .....Thats my current understanding of Buddhism . Do challenge it , debate it for my own learning process .

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149866
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.12.2013
10:10PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Quote: "When one is hungry, one eats
When one is tired, one rests
When one&apos;s friends or family dies, one is sad

If you cut us ... do we not bleed??
"
.........

YES thats COMMON human knowledge , common human culture .....commom human acceptance .

But if human glued to this understanding , we will always find joy on sex , find sorrow on death ..........human will always be human , the one they know and wishing to be the own they already known.

Buddhism , in my current understanding is the answer to all our question on our journey ............. the answer to all reasons.........BUT if we always attached to our beliefs ...always attached to our reasons even having a FAITH without challenge it......we will always in our circle of our own knowledge .......... 

One should be FREE of any faith , FREE of any known knowledge , FREE of having attachment on ownselves ......see ourselves no different than others , see others no different than ownselves to learn from all ................in human , Buddhism is a PROCESS that involves all learning , all discovering , all experiences , understanding BY being AWAKE , by OWN realization leading to acceptance on ourself and emptiness ............................

So in short , knowledge is NOT the basis or referral to Buddhism but rather continue finding the knowledge , continue changing by the knowledge , continue learning new knowledge with the emotions free from own selves / own ego ...........is a PROCESS perhaps decriped by Mr Siddharta .Please continue to debate this .

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149867
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Feb.13.2013
04:34AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "

My friend lost 5 members in his family , both his parent , his brother & sister and  his grand mom in a car accident leaving he alone in this world .......

YES this is suffering . Lost of love one is suffering to all but perhaps Buddhism is the best answer to all questions ...................is no a issue whether to think or not to think about suffering but rather learning from it . It sound very easy but infact it seems impossible to achieve .

Thks

CSEe"

.........

No, no, no ... losing a loved one is not suffering. That is pain or heartache.
It is the clinging to loved ones and the way things were before that is suffering.
A toothache is pain. Suffering is the attachment to the time when there was no pain.
It is not an easy thing to see or understand.
But, tis all goes back to the four noble truths and the eightfold path.
Please go back and learn it again.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149871
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.13.2013
04:54AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

My friend lost 5 members in his family , both his parent , his brother & sister and  his grand mom in a car accident leaving he alone in this world .......

YES this is suffering . Lost of love one is suffering to all but perhaps Buddhism is the best answer to all questions ...................is no a issue whether to think or not to think about suffering but rather learning from it . It sound very easy but infact it seems impossible to achieve .

Thks

CSEe"

.........

No, no, no ... losing a loved one is not suffering. That is pain or heartache.
It is the clinging to loved ones and the way things were before that is suffering.
A toothache is pain. Suffering is the attachment to the time when there was no pain.
It is not an easy thing to see or understand.
But, tis all goes back to the four noble truths and the eightfold path.
Please go back and learn it again.
"
.........

.........

No, no, no ... losing a loved one is not suffering. That is pain or heartache.
It is the clinging to loved ones and the way things were before that is suffering.
A toothache is pain. Suffering is the attachment to the time when there was no pain.
It is not an easy thing to see or understand.
But, tis all goes back to the four noble truths and the eightfold path.
Please go back and learn it again.
"
.........

Dear Avisitor , thanks you for your interest in discussing with me . Whether one "suffer" before or after losing their loved one or experience "pain or heartache or sorrow or sadness or any condition makes them feel un-easy / dis-comfort and suffer" to me still because of ONE REASON and that reason is "OWN SELVE"..........We suffer because of ourselves , our emotions of desire / greed / love / compassion etc ...........so as long as we still attached to this emotion and have it in ourselves ...we will experience joy / sadness and suffering as in knowledge is refer to the condition of one feel sadness ..............

To me there is no "loved one" in Buddhism ...as all beings is of SAME and EQUAL and nothing is belong to me . So nothing is mine ....having a "self" is suffering because that self is the cause of my existence and all the joy / suffering ...

Buddhism is a PROCESS leading to " no self" ...the "emptiness" .

Dear Avisitor , sorry in advance is common happens to me that many "master" asked me to "go back and study" but until now they seems reluctant to debate with me .....they cant even explained to me why they are so confident declare themselves as "teacher"...........Dear Avisitor why dont you use your understanding on whatsoever "teaching" and have a possitive mind and debate with me ............I am always open for change and you could debate with me here or email me at fomains@gmail.com

You seems very knowledgable in Buddhism and perhaps even having a faith in your understanding so what stop you debate with me ? You can make use all your knowledge even "guidance" from your teachers and debate with me ................to me this debate is NOT a competition but is sincerely a learning process .

You are always my teacher same as others so share with me , debate with me my friend ..........

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149872
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Feb.13.2013
05:07AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "...

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Sorry, but you have had others tell you the same.
Why would I be any different???? ..... hahahaha

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149873
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.13.2013
05:26AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "...

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Sorry, but you have had others tell you the same.
Why would I be any different???? ..... hahahaha

"
.........

"
.........

Sorry, but you have had others tell you the same.
Why would I be any different???? ..... hahahaha

"
.........

Perhaps because you consider yourself as others , perhaps you live in others life , perhaps you became others , perhaps you will always be the one lived in others life ........................perhaps that is the reason of your existence .

Buddhism is a PROCESS you will see yourself by your will in your own world ..........Buddhism is a PROCESS that you will "live " in your own life , be in your own "life", know your "own existence".....free you from yourself .

so in short YOU have to BE YOU , FREE YOU by YOUR WILL in YOUR WORLD .

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149875
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Feb.13.2013
05:33AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "...

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

You have been told to go learn the four noble truths and the eightfold path.
These are the basics. Why do you resist so much??
In your current understanding, no one .. not even Buddha himself could teach you aboiut Buddhism .... hahahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149877
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.13.2013
05:51AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "...

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Dear Avisitor you said I quote "You have been told to go learn the four noble truths and the eightfold path.
These are the basics. Why do you resist so much??" un-quote
.........

"
.........

Dear Avisitor you said I quote "You have been told to go learn the four noble truths and the eightfold path.
These are the basics. Why do you resist so much??" un-quote
.........

Dear Sir , if hundreds of people told you to cut off your nose do you cut it ? Or if you visit a country where they kill other tribe just for a minor mis-understanding ...do you just follow them ? Or if you joins a group of people that takes drug , do you also take drug ?????

I NEVER resist ...and why cant you even consider to think perhaps I already know or have my understanding that fit in the about said teachings ? Why dont you use you understanding on the above said text and debate with me .....? What I hope is debate and you are FREE to use and of our knowledge , experiences or even your teacher .

Dear Avisitor , you said I quote " In your current understanding, no one .. not even Buddha himself could teach you aboiut Buddhism .... hahahaha" un-quote

Sorry in advance , you seems never read my writing but choose to create me in your mind . Let me explain again . In my current understanding , NO ONE including Mr Siddharta can teach Buddhism because Buddhism is about own realization of ownselve so is IMPOSSIBLE Mr Siddharta knows how much I accepted myself compare to how much he accepted himself ......Buddhism is a PROCESS that cant be gauge or measure ........BUT I always said Buddhism is all about LEARNING not TEACHING so I could learn Buddhism from all being even from the rubbish . In Buddhism even the dirt under your feed is a teacher to me but even Siddharta could never have the reason to consider himself as a teacher even to a dead leaf ................

I am prepare to explain more if needed , please feel free to debate .

Thks

CSEe
"

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149878
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Feb.13.2013
06:03AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Dear Avisitor you said I quote "You have been told to go learn the four noble truths and the eightfold path.

These are the basics. Why do you resist so much??" un-quote
........


Dear Avisitor you said I quote "You have been told to go learn the four noble truths and the eightfold path.
These are the basics. Why do you resist so much??" un-quote
.........

Dear Sir ,I NEVER resist ...and why cant you even consider to think perhaps I already know or have my understanding that fit in the about said teachings ? Why dont you use you understanding on the above said text and debate with me .....? What I hope is debate and you are FREE to use and of our knowledge , experiences or even your teacher .

Thks

CSEe
"

.........


You still defend your beliefs and deny the truth.

There is no debate when there is no common ground for debate.

Please go back and learn again the truth of Buddhism.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149879
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.13.2013
06:28AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Dear Avisitor you said I quote "You have been told to go learn the four noble truths and the eightfold path.

These are the basics. Why do you resist so much??" un-quote
........


Dear Avisitor you said I quote "You have been told to go learn the four noble truths and the eightfold path.
These are the basics. Why do you resist so much??" un-quote
.........

Dear Sir ,I NEVER resist ...and why cant you even consider to think perhaps I already know or have my understanding that fit in the about said teachings ? Why dont you use you understanding on the above said text and debate with me .....? What I hope is debate and you are FREE to use and of our knowledge , experiences or even your teacher .

Thks

CSEe
"

.........


Dear Avisitor , you said I quote "You still defend your beliefs and deny the truth." Un-quote

Please read your own writing ...again and again perhaps you will realize that the one that never change , defend the beliefs is you , sorry if my writing offended you . I found out that in Buddhism website one thing is so apparent to me is EGO . Many members seems to defend their faith , proud of their knowledge on Buddhism terminologies / teaching and having intention to teach others with their so call knowledge .........many declared themselves as master just because they live a life as a monk or having knowledge on the so call " Buddha's teaching"........ Many people claiming others as stuburn or defended thier views but they fail to realize that perhaps they are the one that fail to change ..........

Dear friend , again you are always my teacher same as Osama same as Siddharta same as the ant on my table now ....................I wish to learn by debating , thats my way .

Dear Avisitor , you said I quote " There is no debate when there is no common ground for debate.Please go back and learn again the truth of Buddhism." Un-quote

Sorry in advance , this is a common reason why people break away from me perhaps because they think they fail to make me agree with their view .............I found out that in many Buddhism website , many members seems seeking agreement from others to their understanding ................................to me we MUST debate because there will never be a common ground in Buddhism as you are in your jopurney and I in mine . Both of us are NEVER in a same , identical state or condition just like we having a face but never the same .................why are you searching for a common ground to debate ? Why cant you choose a topic and share our views ? Debate is NOT  for competition or for show but for learning ......................

Thks

CSEe

Dear Avisitor , you said I quote "You still defend your beliefs and deny the truth." Un-quote

Please read your own writing ...again and again perhaps you will realize that the one that never change , defend the beliefs is you , sorry if my writing offended you . I found out that in Buddhism website one thing is so apparent to me is EGO . Many members seems to defend their faith , proud of their knowledge on Buddhism terminologies / teaching and having intention to teach others with their so call knowledge .........many declared themselves as master just because they live a life as a monk or having knowledge on the so call " Buddha's teaching"........ Many people claiming others as stuburn or defended thier views but they fail to realize that perhaps they are the one that fail to change ..........

Dear friend , again you are always my teacher same as Osama same as Siddharta same as the ant on my table now ....................I wish to learn by debating , thats my way .

Dear Avisitor , you said I quote " There is no debate when there is no common ground for debate.Please go back and learn again the truth of Buddhism." Un-quote

Sorry in advance , this is a common reason why people break away from me perhaps because they think they fail to make me agree with their view .............I found out that in many Buddhism website , many members seems seeking agreement from others to their understanding ................................to me we MUST debate because there will never be a common ground in Buddhism as you are in your jopurney and I in mine . Both of us are NEVER in a same , identical state or condition just like we having a face but never the same .................why are you searching for a common ground to debate ? Why cant you choose a topic and share our views ? Debate is NOT  for competition or for show but for learning ......................

Thks

CSEe

"
.........
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149881
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Feb.13.2013
07:23AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Sorry in advance , this is a common reason why people break away from me perhaps because they think they fail to make me agree with their view

Thks

CSEe

"
.........


You still don't understand. Debate requires common ground.
Since you insist upon your own version of Buddhism then there is no debate.
To debate upon Buddhism then you must have something that is agreed upon first.
Some basics. Since you believe yourself better than Buddha himself then,
How can anyone debate you???

Please let it go and go back to basics.
Learn the four noble truths and the eightfold path.
Otherwise, all you do is confuse an already difficult topic.
When you know and understand the basics then there is room for discussion.
For now, take the time to think before you answer again.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149882
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.13.2013
07:46AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Sorry in advance , this is a common reason why people break away from me perhaps because they think they fail to make me agree with their view

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Dear Avisitor , you said , I quote " You still don&apos;t understand. Debate requires common ground." Un-quote

"
.........


Dear Avisitor , you said , I quote " You still don&apos;t understand. Debate requires common ground." Un-quote

YES to me our " common ground" is Buddhism , I am not asking you to debate with me on sport , do I ?


Dear Avisitort , you said I quote " Since you insist upon your own version of Buddhism then there is no debate." Un-quote

WHY CANT YOU UNDERSTAND ! I do NOT  had or attached to my version on Buddhism , I had explained to you and others hundreds of time ..............I am always READY to change ..............


Dear Avisitor , you said I quote " To debate upon Buddhism then you must have something that is agreed upon first.
Some basics. Since you believe yourself better than Buddha himself then,
How can anyone debate you???' Un-quote

To me , the only agreement is we both agree to discuss our understanding on Buddhism ....not sport , not sex , not culture not politics ........so what agreement you need ? We are discussing NOT trying to find agreement here ..............I could learn whether we agree or not .............If I do not agree with you now this does not means that I will NEVER agree with you in the future ...perhaps one day after I moved into greater realization I do agree with you ...but you will always be a teacher to me no matter how .Dear Avisitor , please STOP twists my words , I always said all being even dirt is my teacher many-many time but you seems twisted my words by saying I believe myself better than Siddharta ......I cant understand why there are so many people always purposely twisted my words in Buddhism website and surprisingly never happens to me in porn website .............

Dear Avisitor , you said I quote "Please let it go and go back to basics.
Learn the four noble truths and the eightfold path.
Otherwise, all you do is confuse an already difficult topic.
When you know and understand the basics then there is room for discussion.
For now, take the time to think before you answer again.
"Un-quote

"Un-quote

You sound like a person claimed to be 'master" of Buddhism . So since you so attached to this " noble truths' or " eightfold path"...lets debate words by words ......

Why dont you start a phase and lets share your own understanding of that phase and my understanding from the phase ................? and please do not judge me before the court.........lets put me into your court and decide . Let me have a fair trial..........Please start .
.........

Thks

CSEe 

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149884
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.13.2013
09:08AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

again my purpose is to learn ...FAST . Time seems running out for me .


Thks


CSEe

"
.........

Why does time seem to be running out for you?
"
.........
Because death can happens any moments "
.........

And then what?
"

"
.........

Why does time seem to be running out for you?
"
.........
Because death can happens any moments
"
.........

And then what?
"

I am still learning my friend ...learning to accept death so I need to learn to face my casket ..........in Buddhism, I found peace and my fear on death had decreased .....the more i debate with others , the more I learned to discover myself , the more I found peace ........I feel less fear .....that is why I hope to debate with all , is to learn . I accept that death can happens any moment , casket is for the dead not for the old.

My understanding of Buddhism is never stay infact I always chakllkenge it , question it and progress from it ........

Thks

CSEe  

"
.........

That is why you are afraid of death because you are thinking about it. Stop thinking and where is death...lol
"
.........

My best friend died in December, leaving a widow, and many sad friends and family.

Another good friend died two weeks ago, with a heart attack at 40.

My grandmother died on Friday.

There it is, without thinking about it.
"
.........

You all seemed to miss the point. It wasn't my sadness or suffering that bore any question or explanation. And neither thinking or remembering.

Many sad friends and family, for all of these people who died recently. They are not memory or thinking. Just people, some sad, some not. Some suffering, some not. When I talk to them, I talk to them. This is it, thinking or not.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149891
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Feb.13.2013
09:46AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Each person sees what they want to see ... hahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149894
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Feb.14.2013
12:02AM EDT 
vertical line I think Avisitor and CSEe are a good match in talking and talking...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149933
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Feb.14.2013
09:06AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I think Avisitor and CSEe are a good match in talking and talking...lol "
.........

You read too much into it ...
But then again ... you are Leoj ... hahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149938
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.14.2013
10:28AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Dear esoteric , you said "You all seemed to miss the point. It wasn't my sadness or suffering that bore any question or explanation. And neither thinking or remembering." Un-quote

Sorry if I mis-understand you , perhaps you could explain further .

Dear esoteric , you said I quote " Many sad friends and family, for all of these people who died recently. They are not memory or thinking. Just people, some sad, some not. Some suffering, some not. When I talk to them, I talk to them. This is it, thinking or not." un-quote

If I am not mis-taken , you seem able to accept yourself to a point that you almost freedom on self .....if that is the case , wow.......you can be a great source of lesson for me . To me currently , I still accepted " special emotion' for my family , my body compare to others ...so when I talk to them is with emotion that can lead to think .....perhaps you could share more on your realization .

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149940
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.14.2013
02:58PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Dear esoteric , you said "You all seemed to miss the point. It wasn't my sadness or suffering that bore any question or explanation. And neither thinking or remembering." Un-quote

Sorry if I mis-understand you , perhaps you could explain further .

Dear esoteric , you said I quote " Many sad friends and family, for all of these people who died recently. They are not memory or thinking. Just people, some sad, some not. Some suffering, some not. When I talk to them, I talk to them. This is it, thinking or not." un-quote

If I am not mis-taken , you seem able to accept yourself to a point that you almost freedom on self .....if that is the case , wow.......you can be a great source of lesson for me . To me currently , I still accepted " special emotion' for my family , my body compare to others ...so when I talk to them is with emotion that can lead to think .....perhaps you could share more on your realization .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

When I feel something, I feel something. When I talk about it, I talk about it. When I think about it, I think about it. I love my friends and grandmother who died. When they died, I felt their loss and grieved. Others grieved also. Sometimes there's grieving together, and sometimes there's acceptance and strength to give space for others' grieving. Feeling is not necessarily suffering, if feelings are understood and accepted.

"Feeling is unavoidable. Suffering is optional."

Also, I am me, the dead friends and grandmother are the dead friends and grandmother, and the grieving friends and family are friends and family.

I love my friends and family, I have special love for special people, like my mother and my daughters. "Special" means that I love my mother as my mother, I love my daughters as my daughters. I love you as a human being whom I know only by your words here. Love for each one here is also special.

Thinking "special emotion" and "my body as compared to others" doesn't enter into it. Emotion is there, and then it's not. Feel and accept that.
Emotion is special each time, for each event or person. Feel and accept that.
You are who feels, sees, thinks, and accepts. Accept that.
The world is your seeing and feeling. Accept that.

So, you accept yourself, you accept the world, you accept that this is one thing, and that this is not one thing. Eyes, mind, and heart wide open.

Pay attention, and accept. What is this? What are you? This is freedom.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149942
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from nibble
Feb.14.2013
04:33PM EDT 
vertical line mmhh..:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqIIW7nxBgc
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149943
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.14.2013
05:04PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "mmhh..:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqIIW7nxBgc
"
.........

Better than India? :-D
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149944
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from boymonk
Feb.14.2013
06:04PM EDT 
vertical line rAdiCal frEeDom.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149947
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.14.2013
09:13PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Dear esoteric , you said I quote " When I feel something, I feel something. When I talk about it, I talk about it. When I think about it, I think about it. I love my friends and grandmother who died. When they died, I felt their loss and grieved. Others grieved also. Sometimes there's grieving together, and sometimes there's acceptance and strength to give space for others' grieving. Feeling is not necessarily suffering, if feelings are understood and accepted.

"Feeling is unavoidable. Suffering is optional."

Also, I am me, the dead friends and grandmother are the dead friends and grandmother, and the grieving friends and family are friends and family."un-quote

Yes , I agreed , thats human knowledge . I love my father and treat him as father but when he dies I accepted his condition being a dead man , a dead father and still love him as dead father ..........he was 79 years old and is expected ....and is easier for me to accept but I could not imagine if this happens to my daughter ...............I am still learning .

Dear esoteric , you said I quote " I love my friends and family, I have special love for special people, like my mother and my daughters. "Special" means that I love my mother as my mother, I love my daughters as my daughters. I love you as a human being whom I know only by your words here. Love for each one here is also special.
"un-quote

Yes , that too is in human culture by human knowledge . Human use knowledge as basis in their life . If 13 years old girl dies in India , I am sad for 5 minuts and my life move on , if this happens to my daughter I will suffer forever ....thats because in human culture , base on human knowledge we created RELATIONSHIP.........human creates OWNERSHIP due to its polluted energy known as desire , greed , pride and entertained his emotions by compassion , love , joy ..............

Buddhism is understanding beyond all culture .....in my current understanding of Buddhism , there is NO relationship , NO ownership as NOTHING is owned by me  NOR my daughter , my family , my materials belonging even my body ..............all being is of SAME and EQUAL......Buddhism PERHAPS will lead me into understanding / accepting my emotions and accepting my daughter is the same 13 years old girl all over the world , same as any animal , plant even the dirt under my shoes .................


Dear esoteric , you said I quote " Thinking "special emotion" and "my body as compared to others" doesn't enter into it. Emotion is there, and then it's not. Feel and accept that.
Emotion is special each time, for each event or person. Feel and accept that.
You are who feels, sees, thinks, and accepts. Accept that.
The world is your seeing and feeling. Accept that."Un-quote

PERHAPS Buddhism is much beyond just accepting that ..........Buddhism will lead one into knowing NO different , accepting NO special emotions leading to no emotions ....into emptiness a condition free of all .



Dear easoteric , you said I quote " So, you accept yourself, you accept the world, you accept that this is one thing, and that this is not one thing. Eyes, mind, and heart wide open.

Pay attention, and accept. What is this? What are you? This is freedom."Un-quote

Yes , FREEDOM is part of Buddhism ......each being is free in all condition . As human we being isolated by our own emotions , understanding the concept of Buddjhism will free human into freedom from ownselves .........because that self is the cause of existence ....................BUT in my current understanding , Buddhism is much beyond just accepting what we are , accepting the condition we in but Buddhism is a PROCESS FREE me from myself......................

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149950
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.15.2013
02:52AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Dear esoteric , you said I quote " When I feel something, I feel something. When I talk about it, I talk about it. When I think about it, I think about it. I love my friends and grandmother who died. When they died, I felt their loss and grieved. Others grieved also. Sometimes there's grieving together, and sometimes there's acceptance and strength to give space for others' grieving. Feeling is not necessarily suffering, if feelings are understood and accepted.

"Feeling is unavoidable. Suffering is optional."

Also, I am me, the dead friends and grandmother are the dead friends and grandmother, and the grieving friends and family are friends and family."un-quote

Yes , I agreed , thats human knowledge . I love my father and treat him as father but when he dies I accepted his condition being a dead man , a dead father and still love him as dead father ..........he was 79 years old and is expected ....and is easier for me to accept but I could not imagine if this happens to my daughter ...............I am still learning .

Dear esoteric , you said I quote " I love my friends and family, I have special love for special people, like my mother and my daughters. "Special" means that I love my mother as my mother, I love my daughters as my daughters. I love you as a human being whom I know only by your words here. Love for each one here is also special.
"un-quote

Yes , that too is in human culture by human knowledge . Human use knowledge as basis in their life . If 13 years old girl dies in India , I am sad for 5 minuts and my life move on , if this happens to my daughter I will suffer forever ....thats because in human culture , base on human knowledge we created RELATIONSHIP.........human creates OWNERSHIP due to its polluted energy known as desire , greed , pride and entertained his emotions by compassion , love , joy ..............

Buddhism is understanding beyond all culture .....in my current understanding of Buddhism , there is NO relationship , NO ownership as NOTHING is owned by me  NOR my daughter , my family , my materials belonging even my body ..............all being is of SAME and EQUAL......Buddhism PERHAPS will lead me into understanding / accepting my emotions and accepting my daughter is the same 13 years old girl all over the world , same as any animal , plant even the dirt under my shoes .................


Dear esoteric , you said I quote " Thinking "special emotion" and "my body as compared to others" doesn't enter into it. Emotion is there, and then it's not. Feel and accept that.
Emotion is special each time, for each event or person. Feel and accept that.
You are who feels, sees, thinks, and accepts. Accept that.
The world is your seeing and feeling. Accept that."Un-quote

PERHAPS Buddhism is much beyond just accepting that ..........Buddhism will lead one into knowing NO different , accepting NO special emotions leading to no emotions ....into emptiness a condition free of all .



Dear easoteric , you said I quote " So, you accept yourself, you accept the world, you accept that this is one thing, and that this is not one thing. Eyes, mind, and heart wide open.

Pay attention, and accept. What is this? What are you? This is freedom."Un-quote

Yes , FREEDOM is part of Buddhism ......each being is free in all condition . As human we being isolated by our own emotions , understanding the concept of Buddjhism will free human into freedom from ownselves .........because that self is the cause of existence ....................BUT in my current understanding , Buddhism is much beyond just accepting what we are , accepting the condition we in but Buddhism is a PROCESS FREE me from myself......................

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

You imagine that Buddhism will do a lot of things.

Big difference between imagining Buddhism, and accepting what is.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149952
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.15.2013
03:11AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "BUT in my current understanding , Buddhism is much beyond just accepting what we are , accepting the condition we in but Buddhism is a PROCESS FREE me from myself......................

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Much of what you call "Buddhism" is a denial of what is. You want no differentiation, no emotion, no distinction, no this, no that, no world, no YOU.

Denial is denial. Acceptance is acceptance.

If you haven't accepted what you are, and you still see some unacceptable condition that you're in, then you're not qualified to say what lies beyond that, even if you imagine it with some important name like Buddhism or Tao.

If you want "free from yourself", then practice paying attention and accept what is.

This is why we sit zazen. This is Zen.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149953
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.15.2013
03:55AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Dear esoteric , you said I quote " When I feel something, I feel something. When I talk about it, I talk about it. When I think about it, I think about it. I love my friends and grandmother who died. When they died, I felt their loss and grieved. Others grieved also. Sometimes there&apos;s grieving together, and sometimes there&apos;s acceptance and strength to give space for others&apos; grieving. Feeling is not necessarily suffering, if feelings are understood and accepted.

"Feeling is unavoidable. Suffering is optional."

Also, I am me, the dead friends and grandmother are the dead friends and grandmother, and the grieving friends and family are friends and family."un-quote

Yes , I agreed , thats human knowledge . I love my father and treat him as father but when he dies I accepted his condition being a dead man , a dead father and still love him as dead father ..........he was 79 years old and is expected ....and is easier for me to accept but I could not imagine if this happens to my daughter ...............I am still learning .

Dear esoteric , you said I quote " I love my friends and family, I have special love for special people, like my mother and my daughters. "Special" means that I love my mother as my mother, I love my daughters as my daughters. I love you as a human being whom I know only by your words here. Love for each one here is also special.
"un-quote

Yes , that too is in human culture by human knowledge . Human use knowledge as basis in their life . If 13 years old girl dies in India , I am sad for 5 minuts and my life move on , if this happens to my daughter I will suffer forever ....thats because in human culture , base on human knowledge we created RELATIONSHIP.........human creates OWNERSHIP due to its polluted energy known as desire , greed , pride and entertained his emotions by compassion , love , joy ..............

Buddhism is understanding beyond all culture .....in my current understanding of Buddhism , there is NO relationship , NO ownership as NOTHING is owned by me  NOR my daughter , my family , my materials belonging even my body ..............all being is of SAME and EQUAL......Buddhism PERHAPS will lead me into understanding / accepting my emotions and accepting my daughter is the same 13 years old girl all over the world , same as any animal , plant even the dirt under my shoes .................


Dear esoteric , you said I quote " Thinking "special emotion" and "my body as compared to others" doesn&apos;t enter into it. Emotion is there, and then it&apos;s not. Feel and accept that.
Emotion is special each time, for each event or person. Feel and accept that.
You are who feels, sees, thinks, and accepts. Accept that.
The world is your seeing and feeling. Accept that."Un-quote

PERHAPS Buddhism is much beyond just accepting that ..........Buddhism will lead one into knowing NO different , accepting NO special emotions leading to no emotions ....into emptiness a condition free of all .



Dear easoteric , you said I quote " So, you accept yourself, you accept the world, you accept that this is one thing, and that this is not one thing. Eyes, mind, and heart wide open.

Pay attention, and accept. What is this? What are you? This is freedom."Un-quote

Yes , FREEDOM is part of Buddhism ......each being is free in all condition . As human we being isolated by our own emotions , understanding the concept of Buddjhism will free human into freedom from ownselves .........because that self is the cause of existence ....................BUT in my current understanding , Buddhism is much beyond just accepting what we are , accepting the condition we in but Buddhism is a PROCESS FREE me from myself......................

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

You imagine that Buddhism will do a lot of things.

Big difference between imagining Buddhism, and accepting what is.
"
.........

"
.........

You imagine that Buddhism will do a lot of things.

Big difference between imagining Buddhism, and accepting what is.
"
.........

Dear esoteric , I am awake to aware that I never "imagine" Buddhism and in my current understanding Buddhism NEVER "do" anything FOR any beings.......is a NATURAL process not by choice , not by force ............

Sorry in advance , from my experiences discussing with hundreds of people if not thousands on net , by emails or by direct conversation ...I have reason to say that many people whom claiming themselves as " Master" or " teacher"...mostly are monks seems to decorated Buddhism as their wish and confidently teaching them to others ...many just follow just because they are monks and in human knowledge / culture accepted as " Master"......perhaps by common sense or logic and fair to say these people is imagining Buddhism...........

Accepting Buddhism to me is almost impossible as long as one is still attached to "the self" ............to me if I accepted Buddhism, I accepted nothing belong to me therefore if 'my body' infected with cancer and in the process of rotting , I will never feel sad or suffer ........if I accepted Buddhism , my daughter is same and equal with the dirt on my table ................so dear sir , do you know anyone who had accepted Buddhism ? Is Dalai Lama accepted Buddhism already ?.............

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149955
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.15.2013
04:21AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Dear esoteric , I hope you do not mis-understand me , I really enjoy debating with you or anyone because by debating I learned fast .......you said , I quote " Much of what you call "Buddhism" is a denial of what is. You want no differentiation, no emotion, no distinction, no this, no that, no world, no YOU. Denial is denial. Acceptance is acceptance" Un-quote

I call it Buddhism because of my realization from the words " awake and emptiness" linked to Buddhism said to be introduced by Mr Siddharta .......so to me anyone have their own reason based on their understanding on Buddhism .......so even now there are many traditions / many ways how Buddhism being practice .............

So dear esoteric ....I have my understanding on Buddhism but since you claim as " denial" what is yours my friend .....? What is Buddhism to you ?

I never want anything , never expect anything in Buddhism . As I have said is my current understanding .

Dear esoteric , you said I quote " If you haven't accepted what you are, and you still see some unacceptable condition that you're in, then you're not qualified to say what lies beyond that, even if you imagine it with some important name like Buddhism or Tao." un-quote

YES as I have explained I havent accepted myself because if I had I will accepted nothing belong to me nor my daughter even my body ................

Dear esoteric , you said I quote " If you want "free from yourself", then practice paying attention and accept what is. This is why we sit zazen. This is Zen." Un-quote

In my current understanding , Buddhism is NOT by choice or wish ...so freeing ownselve as in Buddhism is NEVER resulted by desire or affected by any practice by is always caused by own realization .........by being awake to awake .

You can practice all kind of meditation , all kind of practice still all is part of your learning lesson by your own will , your own journey in your world to discover your ownselve .....................so whether you do is never right or wrong as all will be part of your process to accept yourselves.................

So you can sitting meditation if you feel that that is your way , or you could drinking in the bar with many girls sitting with you playing hide and seek ...........is all same and equal great learning source .......is your choice , nothing will be right or must be wrong , thats Buddhism to me currently.

Thks

CSEe 

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149956
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.15.2013
09:21AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

In my current understanding , Buddhism is NOT by choice or wish ....

.......is your choice , nothing will be right or must be wrong , thats Buddhism to me currently.

Thks

CSEe 

"
.........

You have everything you need already. :-)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149959
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.15.2013
11:04AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

In my current understanding , Buddhism is NOT by choice or wish ....

.......is your choice , nothing will be right or must be wrong , thats Buddhism to me currently.

Thks

CSEe 

"
.........

You have everything you need already. :-) "
.........

"
.........

You have everything you need already. :-)
"
.........

No my friend , materially there are lots of thing i need but it seems not much important for me after realizing death can happens as I writing now .........and in term of spiritually I do not know what I need , never expect what to need or imagine what should my needs ................as for right now , debating with you seems the best "need" .........better than a great sex........i could not say better than a million dollors because I never had that much money before ..............

dear esoteric , perhaps I find meditation in a particular way as descriped by you is perhaps one of the trillions way into self realization ...I had tried a few meditation but I realized that self realization can not be planned  ...you just cant plan to know yourself by following your method of your choice ......

if you go to TESCO you will find things you already expect to find , if you go into deep jungle , you expects animal , trees  can even expect to see Tarzan , even if you find a TESCO in the deep jungle you still will somehow find your answer to statisfy your desire.....WHY ? Because you are searching for something and by searching for something , you will find reason to satisfy your desire to know ......Buddhism is NOT something YOU FIND , NOT something resulted from your search ...NOT resulted from your practice........but is the PROCESS you IN regardless what you do ....... ...... self realization is something you cant expect to find .......so to me , practicing certain method to explore ownself is same as finding who we wish to find .....what we hope to be .

Sorry my friend currently I do not share same logic with you to know myself by meditation ..........perhaps one day after I moved into greater realization I will find reason and agree with you .

Currently I agree with Mr Siddharta words being "awake".........awake as I realize currently carry a huge meaning of freedom of any attachment on knowledge . Freedom from "knowing" who  I am , freedom of attachment of any human knowledge / culture / acceptance ..........this had lead me to realize " what I am" and Buddhism perhaps will lead me to accept MYSELF and free ME from myself ..........

Currently my dear friend debating with you , observing action / re-action or nature of any beings is to me much more logic compare to meditate.................

Sorry my friend currently not for me and I declined to discuss  further as any action even meditation is also part of the process known to me as Buddhism................

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149961
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Feb.15.2013
09:55PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Sorry my friend currently I do not share same logic with you to know myself by meditation ..........perhaps one day after I moved into greater realization I will find reason and agree with you .


..........


It isn't with reason that one becomes awakened.
It sometimes requires a loud noise or even a shove in the right place .... hahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149966
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.15.2013
11:28PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Quote: "Sorry my friend currently I do not share same logic with you to know myself by meditation ..........perhaps one day after I moved into greater realization I will find reason and agree with you .


..........


It isn&apos;t with reason that one becomes awakened.
It sometimes requires a loud noise or even a shove in the right place .... hahaha
"
.........

YES agreed my friend......self realization even self acceptance could accur even in sex.........but perhaps not resulted by a desire or a plan or reflection of an expectation .......perhaps if you hit me with "a shovel from behind" , I will feel the pain as expected by you ...but if you told me that you will hit me with a shovel from front ...I will be prepared and perhaps I will not feel or have the emotion as expected by you ..................but if I have the knowledge that you will hit me any time , I will be prepared and I will always suffering by preparing myself for you .............I will be spending my whole life expecting for your action which may or may not accur ........THATS COMMON HUMAN CULTURE .

in Buddhism , I learned I always free and I could learned on whatever your action without any expectation of your action or imagine your action .........in Buddhism , I learned that you regardless any of your action can never hurt me or bring joy to me ........the cause of all my joy , my suffering is myself ....

In Buddhism , I learned you are always a source of learning for me therefore your action is never true or false , never right or wrong or good or bad ...all is a great learning lesson for me to discover myself .

 All beings is providing lesson to me and without any expectation on what should I learn.......I will discover myself .........the one which I never planned to know , the one that I never imagined to me but the one that I will release............

In Buddhism, I learned and as I move on myself seems decreasing ( NOT on all emotion- I still greatly attached to desire on sex , money and the love for my daughter )........I am learning my friend ................so "hit" me my friend without any shovel , without any desire ...I will always " thank you" in my emotion .

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149967
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.15.2013
11:41PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

In Buddhism, I learned and as I move on myself seems decreasing ( NOT on all emotion- I still greatly attached to desire on sex , money and the love for my daughter )........I am learning my friend ................so "hit" me my friend without any shovel , without any desire ...I will always " thank you" in my emotion .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Good man.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149968
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Feb.16.2013
12:01AM EDT 
vertical line BHADDEKARRATA-GATHA  (poem on THE BEST WAY TO LIVE INDEPENDENTLY)

Do not go after the past,
Do not lose yourself in the future.
For the past no longer exists,
And the future is not yet here.
By looking deeply at things just as they are,
In this moment, here and now,
The seeker lives calmly and freely.
You should be attentive today,
For waiting until tomorrow is too late.
Death can come and take us by surprise -
How can we gainsay it?
The one who knows
How to live attentively
Night and day
Is the one who knows
The best way to be independent.

-- Buddha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149969
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Feb.16.2013
02:15AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "BHADDEKARRATA-GATHA  (poem on THE BEST WAY TO LIVE INDEPENDENTLY)

Do not go after the past,
Do not lose yourself in the future.
For the past no longer exists,
And the future is not yet here.
By looking deeply at things just as they are,
In this moment, here and now,
The seeker lives calmly and freely.
You should be attentive today,
For waiting until tomorrow is too late.
Death can come and take us by surprise -
How can we gainsay it?
The one who knows
How to live attentively
Night and day
Is the one who knows
The best way to be independent.

-- Buddha
"
.........

Yeah you can only go to the past thinking ... your memory... and go to the future by thinking.. speculating.....
You can never think of the present moment...

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149971
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.16.2013
03:28AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Dear leoj99 , you said " Yeah you can only go to the past thinking ... your memory... and go to the future by thinking.. speculating.....
You can never think of the present moment..." Un-quote

To my current understanding , "thinking " perhaps is part of exploration of "mind" that is the reflection of " the self".....Buddhism to me is not whether " to think" or " not to think"..." OR " what should be thinking"...but thinking as part of exploration of ownselves ...thinking of exploring own emotions , own desire in a process to discover , to know , to understand , to experience ownselve.......

In current human knowledge , we commonly think in a affort to understand others , to discover how thing works , to discover and find out the answer to questions .............and used the result of the thinking as knowledge ...knowledge bacame the basis of human lifes ...............

In Buddhism , we think as own selves exploration and in this PROCESS time is never exist ...no past no future .....only in present moment .........

Our emotions such as desire , hope , love , greed , ego lead us to think for the past or the future ...but by being awake , there is no past or future ......................

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149973
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Feb.16.2013
04:07AM EDT 
vertical line That is we most are always missing because they think they can think of the answer... they think they can find what is missing by thinking..

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149974
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Feb.16.2013
04:45AM EDT 
vertical line we = why... lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149975
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from nibble
Feb.27.2013
09:00AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "mmhh..:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqIIW7nxBgc
"
.........

Better than India? :-D
"
.........
Yes. Got a call from him I originally was to travel with informing a friend of ours died today (one of two friends allready at goa), not one of my closest friends, but I really liked him, a truly good chap, . .
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 150223
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from jordtm
Feb.28.2013
12:05AM EDT 
Email jordtm
vertical line I suppose my Zen happened to be the fulfillment of my paradox. At the moment beyond consciousness I desired to understand my experience. The experience occurs before the subject, I observe the subject thereafter, call it "meditation", and then make it my own. :)


vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 150230
horizontal line
 
Back To Topic List   Go to Top of Page

 



SUPPORT ZENGUIDE.COM
If you are planning on purchasing any product from amazon.com, you can help us out by using the search box to the right or by clicking on this link to begin shopping.


Purchase posters, art prints, media (music CD & DVD)

buy this BUDDHA, MAE CHAN, THAILAND
by Mark Standen
Puchase this Item
More Art Prints & Media
Zen & Buddhism books
 
 
d
.
i
.
s
.
c
.
u
.
s
.
s
.
i
.
o
.
n
.

.
f
.
o
.
r
.
u
.
m
.
Copyright © 1999 - 2014 zenguide.com - All rights reserved. °