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  "But," asked Vaccha persistently, "when one who has this emancipation of mind
(freed from self) dies, where does he go, where is he reborn?
The Buddha replied:
"The word 'reborn' does not fit the case."
"Then he is not reborn?"
"To... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: COMMONALITY
vertical line Posted on Feb.11.2013 @ 09:56AM EDT by frozenaomi
So it seems like poor Leo's Zen Buddhism? Post got kind of hijacked so I thought I'd start a new topic and see if I could shift the dialog over.

Only we've done a pretty good job of hashing out our differences, would it be possible to reframe the dialog on our points of Commonality and start from there? Maybe we'll be able to come up with more interesting arguments and counter arguments than:
1 I believe this
2 You're wrong
3 nuh uh
4 uh huh
5 repeat as necessary
Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email frozenaomi
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Reply from Avisitor
Feb.11.2013
01:04PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Leoj's Zen Buddhism is fine and many of us agree in part with his answer
However, right he may be ... he is still missing something
And this is where we come in .... hahahaha

The Four Noble truths
The Eight Fold path
Three Marks of Existence
Karma
Sitting Zazen

These things are common. The last one being a very important step.
Even if you don't know the others, one should practice Zazen.

Here is the Breathing advice found in the Stories. Books. Media section at
Zenguide.com

BREATHING PRACTICE
Find a place where you are alone and train yourself
in this way:

When you breathe in, experience breathing in.
When you breathe out, be fully conscious that
you are breathing out.
If you cherish and practice this, it will bear great fruit.
Whatever you are doing and wherever you are, you
will find steadiness, calm, and concentration if you
become conscious of your breathing.

From "Majjhima Nikaya" of the Buddha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149829
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Reply from esoteric
Feb.11.2013
05:44PM EDT 
vertical line It didn't appear to me as if Leoj99's post got hijacked. He said,

"
Zen Buddhism..?

As I can see in Zen Forums they talk about Zen or Buddhism. They even say that Zen Buddhism is the practice of Zazen and Zazen is enlightenment.

So whats the big deal about Zen Buddhism...lol

"



If you want to know the big deal about Zen Buddhism, or zazen, or anything, then you must experience it for yourself. He already knows this, because when anyone wants to directly know watermelon, he just tells them to eat watermelon. :-)

So, asking what the big deal is about anything is useless, unless you just want some opinions, agreements, and disagreements. Like,

1 I believe this
2 You're wrong
3 nuh uh
4 uh huh
5 repeat as necessary

Right? :-)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149830
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Reply from esoteric
Feb.11.2013
05:53PM EDT 
vertical line Zazen is the commonality, which is why everyone who practices Zen Buddhism practices zazen. Zazen is not simply sitting, or breathing. It's a very specific way of sitting and breathing, and other things the mind and body does while sitting and breathing.

If one wants to practice zazen, it's a good idea to learn how to sit zazen correctly from a  Zen Buddhist teacher. If a good teacher can't be found, then you can read good instructions on how to sit zazen on this site, in Phillip Kapleau's The Three Pillars of Zen, and other commentaries from masters such as Seung Sahn and Shunryu Suzuki.

Having a teacher who can watch and instruct will help to correct sitting posture and other body/mind activity, to avoid sitting incorrectly in ways that can be contrary to intention.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149831
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Reply from boymonk
Feb.11.2013
08:24PM EDT 
vertical line 1 I believe this
2 You're wrong
3 nuh uh
4 uh huh
5 repeat as necessary
6 Saw some squirrels on the fence this morning. I might just start sing'n to them. hey, it's raining. I guess I'm... singing in the rain, just sing'n in the rain, what a glorious feeling, I'm, happy again...
7 repeat as necessary
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149833
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Reply from so_teh
Feb.11.2013
08:31PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line You have to learn to make Nirvana work through conducting meditation experiments. Once you are well, look, all of life is well. Feel and understand the sacred reality of things. There is nothing to it.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149834
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Reply from leoj99
Feb.12.2013
02:08AM EDT 
vertical line Zen is spontaneous.. you don't ever act from memory.. like memorizing the eight fold paths and four noble truths...

No right or wrong...lol

My topic is hijjacked?... no one answered whats the big deal about Zen Buddhism...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149838
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Reply from leoj99
Feb.12.2013
02:10AM EDT 
vertical line You don't need a teacher for sitting zazen.. just go to a zen website and all the instructions are there... You only need a teacher if you do koan studies...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149839
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Reply from Avisitor
Feb.12.2013
08:24AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "You don't need a teacher for sitting zazen.. just go to a zen website and all the instructions are there... You only need a teacher if you do koan studies...lol "
.........

Nothing can truly replace a person to person instructional meeting.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149844
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Reply from boymonk
Feb.12.2013
11:25AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "You don't need a teacher for sitting zazen.. just go to a zen website and all the instructions are there... You only need a teacher if you do koan studies...lol "
.........

Nothing can truly retrace a person to person sexual meeting.
"
.........

Ain't that the truth!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149848
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Reply from esoteric
Feb.12.2013
06:33PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "You don't need a teacher for sitting zazen.. just go to a zen website and all the instructions are there... You only need a teacher if you do koan studies...lol "
.........

You don't read or pay attention. That's why you need a teacher.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149858
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Reply from Avisitor
Feb.12.2013
08:01PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "You don't need a teacher for sitting zazen.. just go to a zen website and all the instructions are there... You only need a teacher if you do koan studies...lol "
.........

You don't read or pay attention. That's why you need a teacher.
"
.........

Thank you
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149863
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Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.12.2013
10:22PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "You don't need a teacher for sitting zazen.. just go to a zen website and all the instructions are there... You only need a teacher if you do koan studies...lol "
.........

You don't read or pay attention. That's why you need a teacher.
"
.........

Thank you
"
.........

Dear Avisitor , sorry if I am interfering your discussion here . I had asked this question even by email to many master , even many this to Dalai Lama but so far none have answer it . My question is " what makes a person have the desire . the emotion , the reason that he is a teacher ...that he can be a teacher to others ? .........

To me I can find any reason to consider myself a "teacher" to any being ..................

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149868
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Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.12.2013
11:19PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "You don't need a teacher for sitting zazen.. just go to a zen website and all the instructions are there... You only need a teacher if you do koan studies...lol "
.........

You don't read or pay attention. That's why you need a teacher.
"
.........

Thank you
"
.........

Dear Avisitor , sorry if I am interfering your discussion here . I had asked this question even by email to many master , even many this to Dalai Lama but so far none have answer it . My question is " what makes a person have the desire . the emotion , the reason that he is a teacher ...that he can be a teacher to others ? .........

To me I CANT find any reason to consider myself a "teacher" to any being ..................

Thks

CSEe

"
.........
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149869
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Reply from Avisitor
Feb.13.2013
04:11AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "To me I CANT find any reason to consider myself a "teacher" to any being 

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Who said that you were qualified to teach???
This is why you are not able to teach anyone.
You need to have actualized the truth of Buddha's words
And not just have a mental understanding of his words.
This is not a University course that you must know a certain amount of information in order to pass a test.

Please stop thinking you can pass on your knowledge and just eat watermelon ... hahaha
Or just breath the breathe of life ..... hahahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149870
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Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.13.2013
05:18AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "To me I CANT find any reason to consider myself a "teacher" to any being 

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Dear Avisitor I said " I CANT find any reason to consider myself a teacher " un-quote and is funny you said and I quote "Who said that you were qualified to teach???
This is why you are not able to teach anyone."un-quote

"
.........

Dear Avisitor I said " I CANT find any reason to consider myself a teacher " un-quote and is funny you said and I quote "Who said that you were qualified to teach???
This is why you are not able to teach anyone."un-quote

Seems to me you are against me for no reason .......................So tell me my friend what makes a person have reason to consider he knows Buddhism better than others .

To me , we can have teacher is knowledge so we can have a teacher in sport , in education even in sex .....but in my current understanding ...Buddhism is OWN SELF REALIZATION and ACCEPTANCE . So IF NOT EGO , how can a person including Mr Siddharta himself knows how much Osama accepted himself compare to how much Mr Siddharta accept his ownself  and have reason to teach Osama?


Dear Avisitor , you said , I quote " You need to have actualized the truth of Buddha's words
And not just have a mental understanding of his words." Un-quote

YES , that is to me REALIZATION on OWN SELVE ...........BUT  how can you know others experiences ? How do you know your " actualized the truth" is " the truth" and nothing but " the truth "

To me my friend that is only your experiences PART of your learning PROCESS known to me as Buddhism .....is YOURS learning process NOT as a comparison to others , NOT for show , NOT as a referral to others ............and EVEN should never be a referral to your own learning process ............................................

Dear Avisitor , you said I quote "This is not a University course that you must know a certain amount of information in order to pass a test." Un-quote

You should tell it to Dalai Lama because I heard he had a " Doctrate in Buddhism studies"....................


Dear Avisitor , you said I quote " Please stop thinking you can pass on your knowledge and just eat watermelon ... hahaha
Or just breath the breathe of life ..... hahahaha" Un-quote

Is funny why do you seems twisted my words .............I always said Buddhism is beyond knowledge and I never attached to my current understanding .

Thks

CSee
"
.........

"
.........
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149874
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Reply from Avisitor
Feb.13.2013
05:30AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "To me I CANT find any reason to consider myself a "teacher" to any being 

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Dear Avisitor , you said I quote " Please stop thinking you can pass on your knowledge and just eat watermelon ... hahaha
Or just breath the breathe of life ..... hahahaha" Un-quote

Is funny why do you seems twisted my words .............I always said Buddhism is beyond knowledge and I never attached to my current understanding .

Thks

CSee
"
.........


You do so much to defend your beliefs.

You have encounters others and they have all said the same to you.

Why do you think that is so??

It is becasue you are so attached to your beliefs.

Deny all you want ... doesn't change the truth .... hahahha

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149876
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Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.13.2013
06:05AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "To me I CANT find any reason to consider myself a "teacher" to any being 

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Dear Avisitor , you said I quote " Please stop thinking you can pass on your knowledge and just eat watermelon ... hahaha
Or just breath the breathe of life ..... hahahaha" Un-quote

Is funny why do you seems twisted my words .............I always said Buddhism is beyond knowledge and I never attached to my current understanding .

Thks

CSee
"
.........


You do so much to defend your beliefs.

You have encounters others and they have all said the same to you.

Why do you think that is so??

It is becasue you are so attached to your beliefs.

Deny all you want ... doesn't change the truth .... hahahha

"
.........

"
.........

Dear Avisitor , I had explains to you and others perhaps hundreds of time and even thousand if you search in others website in total.

But seems to me you still choose to create " CSEe" in your mind and decorated me as to fit in your desire .

Again , I just want to learn , need to learn .........sincerely what I wish to to learn more and more on Buddhism because I found peace in Buddhism . Buddhism makes me less fear on death and less carry the burden on myself ...................

I just wish by debating I could explore areas that i never been or experience new realization . By debating I advance into greater understanding and with that I could share my understanding with my 13 years old daughter .

As A father , and still a human with emotion as a common father I just hope my daughter could live her life with less fear on death , less suffering on losing love one , less suffering on sickness and old age .

So if my daughter could accept old age , sickness or death and living a life freedom of fear , happy with understanding on Buddhism ..that will be my greatest gift as a father and sorry dear Avisitor , you still think I just having ego to defend my view ........

Dear Avisitor , lets debate and forget the CSEe in your mind because that was never me .

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149880
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Reply from Avisitor
Feb.13.2013
07:30AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "To me I CANT find any reason to consider myself a "teacher" to any being 

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Dear Avisitor , you said I quote " Please stop thinking you can pass on your knowledge and just eat watermelon ... hahaha
Or just breath the breathe of life ..... hahahaha" Un-quote

Is funny why do you seems twisted my words .............I always said Buddhism is beyond knowledge and I never attached to my current understanding .

Thks

CSee
"
.........


You do so much to defend your beliefs.

You have encounters others and they have all said the same to you.

Why do you think that is so??

It is becasue you are so attached to your beliefs.

Deny all you want ... doesn't change the truth .... hahahha

"
.........

"
.........

Dear Avisitor , I had explains to you and others perhaps hundreds of time and even thousand if you search in others website in total.

But seems to me you still choose to create " CSEe" in your mind and decorated me as to fit in your desire .

Again , I just want to learn , need to learn .........sincerely what I wish to to learn more and more on Buddhism because I found peace in Buddhism . Buddhism makes me less fear on death and less carry the burden on myself ...................

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Again you say one thing and then do another. Never true to your own words.
You say you want to debate. But, you only present your side and never try to understand another.
You have come across others who have said the same thing over and over to you.
Yet, you still deny the truth and go on with your own beliefs.
What if anything have you learned from another??
It is only through self examination that you will receive a better understanding of Buddhism and yourself.
Acceptance is not realization. And, realization is not actualization of the truth.

Others have asked you to practice meditation.
This was the Buddha's way ... but you deem yourself better than Buddha.
How can anyone show you more than you already believe yourself to know??

But, be of good cheer for you are not alone ...  hahahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149883
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Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.13.2013
07:56AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "To me I CANT find any reason to consider myself a "teacher" to any being 

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Dear Avisitor , you said I quote " Please stop thinking you can pass on your knowledge and just eat watermelon ... hahaha
Or just breath the breathe of life ..... hahahaha" Un-quote

Is funny why do you seems twisted my words .............I always said Buddhism is beyond knowledge and I never attached to my current understanding .

Thks

CSee
"
.........


You do so much to defend your beliefs.

You have encounters others and they have all said the same to you.

Why do you think that is so??

It is becasue you are so attached to your beliefs.

Deny all you want ... doesn't change the truth .... hahahha

"
.........

"
.........

Dear Avisitor , I had explains to you and others perhaps hundreds of time and even thousand if you search in others website in total.

But seems to me you still choose to create " CSEe" in your mind and decorated me as to fit in your desire .

Again , I just want to learn , need to learn .........sincerely what I wish to to learn more and more on Buddhism because I found peace in Buddhism . Buddhism makes me less fear on death and less carry the burden on myself ...................

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Again you say one thing and then do another. Never true to your own words.
You say you want to debate. But, you only present your side and never try to understand another.
You have come across others who have said the same thing over and over to you.
Yet, you still deny the truth and go on with your own beliefs.
What if anything have you learned from another??
It is only through self examination that you will receive a better understanding of Buddhism and yourself.
Acceptance is not realization. And, realization is not actualization of the truth.

Others have asked you to practice meditation.
This was the Buddha's way ... but you deem yourself better than Buddha.
How can anyone show you more than you already believe yourself to know??

But, be of good cheer for you are not alone ...  hahahaha
"

"
.........

Again you say one thing and then do another. Never true to your own words.
You say you want to debate. But, you only present your side and never try to understand another.
You have come across others who have said the same thing over and over to you.
Yet, you still deny the truth and go on with your own beliefs.
What if anything have you learned from another??
It is only through self examination that you will receive a better understanding of Buddhism and yourself.
Acceptance is not realization. And, realization is not actualization of the truth.

Others have asked you to practice meditation.
This was the Buddha's way ... but you deem yourself better than Buddha.
How can anyone show you more than you already believe yourself to know??

But, be of good cheer for you are not alone ...  hahahaha
"

Dear Avisitor , I can answer you phase by phase , words by words but seems to me you always trying to oppose and avoiding the topic . I choose to invite you to zoom into one topic ...that is to debate with me your understanding of Buddhism against mine ......perhaps this will be a good discussion NOT just for my learning process but to others .....we can go round and round with this but I choose lets your own writing be your source to learn yourself ......let your writing be my learning tools ...........

lets debate ...you are free to start any topics by using simple English words without any terminologies ......just your understanding against mine .

Thks

CSEe
.........

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149885
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Reply from Avisitor
Feb.13.2013
08:18AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "lets debate ...you are free to start any topics by using simple English words without any terminologies ......just your understanding against mine .

Thks

CSEe"
.........


Topic  "Meditation"

Why did Buddha need to meditate if all it takes is acceptance of oneself and realizing we are all same and nothing like dirt on feet??

Or

What is meditation like and what are its benefits?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149886
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Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.13.2013
08:36AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "lets debate ...you are free to start any topics by using simple English words without any terminologies ......just your understanding against mine .

Thks

CSEe"
.........


Topic  "Meditation"

Why did Buddha need to meditate if all it takes is acceptance of oneself and realizing we are all same and nothing like dirt on feet??

Or

What is meditation like and what are its benefits?

"
.........

"
.........

YES ! YES ! Thanks my dear friend ....please forget "what I am" , 'who I was" and lets disccuss .........

I NEVER try to imagine why did Siddharta said to be meditate or how because to me Buddhism is a PROCESS of all beings so each beings whether living or non-living is under a PROCESS of learning to "discover" themselves by their own choices , their own will in their own path .......so Siddharta perhaps chooses "meditation" as his way to discover himself , find reason for his question on himself .....perhaps Osama need to kill as part of his learning process , his method of self discovery ........

In short whatever Siddharta do or what ever his words SHOULD NEVER be a REFERRAL to Buddhism but serves as a learning lesson to all same and equal as any others being ....

YOU need to discover YOU , you need to understand " YOU" and accept " YOURSELF" by your own will ...your own choices .

Self Realization to me is realizing YOU and YOURSELF .......realizing you as "emptiness" and realizing " yourself" as all your emotions / desire / love / compassion that causes your existence ................by such realization I found myself is the cause of my existence , all my suffering/ joy and my realization of Buddhism .

To me , "meditation" is a form of self searching , trying to explore own mind by freeing from own knowledge ...........but thats my own version . Out there many people have many different way of meditation but for me whenever I need to think on business , on family matters etc I drive ...I drive my car for hours and hours ...I found peace by driving into woods .................

Thanks so whats yours reason .

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149887
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Reply from esoteric
Feb.13.2013
09:14AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "To me I CANT find any reason to consider myself a "teacher" to any being 

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Dear Avisitor , you said I quote " Please stop thinking you can pass on your knowledge and just eat watermelon ... hahaha
Or just breath the breathe of life ..... hahahaha" Un-quote

Is funny why do you seems twisted my words .............I always said Buddhism is beyond knowledge and I never attached to my current understanding .

Thks

CSee
"
.........


You do so much to defend your beliefs.

You have encounters others and they have all said the same to you.

Why do you think that is so??

It is becasue you are so attached to your beliefs.

Deny all you want ... doesn't change the truth .... hahahha

"
.........

"
.........

Dear Avisitor , I had explains to you and others perhaps hundreds of time and even thousand if you search in others website in total.

But seems to me you still choose to create " CSEe" in your mind and decorated me as to fit in your desire .

Again , I just want to learn , need to learn .........sincerely what I wish to to learn more and more on Buddhism because I found peace in Buddhism . Buddhism makes me less fear on death and less carry the burden on myself ...................

I just wish by debating I could explore areas that i never been or experience new realization . By debating I advance into greater understanding and with that I could share my understanding with my 13 years old daughter .

As A father , and still a human with emotion as a common father I just hope my daughter could live her life with less fear on death , less suffering on losing love one , less suffering on sickness and old age .

So if my daughter could accept old age , sickness or death and living a life freedom of fear , happy with understanding on Buddhism ..that will be my greatest gift as a father and sorry dear Avisitor , you still think I just having ego to defend my view ........

Dear Avisitor , lets debate and forget the CSEe in your mind because that was never me .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

You are already a blessing to your daughter.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149892
horizontal line
 
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Reply from Avisitor
Feb.13.2013
09:41AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "lets debate ...you are free to start any topics by using simple English words without any terminologies ......just your understanding against mine .

Thks

CSEe"
.........


Topic  "Meditation"

Why did Buddha need to meditate if all it takes is acceptance of oneself and realizing we are all same and nothing like dirt on feet??

Or

What is meditation like and what are its benefits?

"
.........

"
.........

YES ! YES ! Thanks my dear friend ....please forget "what I am" , 'who I was" and lets disccuss .........

I NEVER try to imagine why did Siddharta said to be meditate or how because to me Buddhism is a PROCESS of all beings so each beings whether living or non-living is under a PROCESS of learning to "discover" themselves by their own choices , their own will in their own path .......so Siddharta perhaps chooses "meditation" as his way to discover himself , find reason for his question on himself .....perhaps Osama need to kill as part of his learning process , his method of self discovery ........

In short whatever Siddharta do or what ever his words SHOULD NEVER be a REFERRAL to Buddhism but serves as a learning lesson to all same and equal as any others being ....

YOU need to discover YOU , you need to understand " YOU" and accept " YOURSELF" by your own will ...your own choices .

Self Realization to me is realizing YOU and YOURSELF .......realizing you as "emptiness" and realizing " yourself" as all your emotions / desire / love / compassion that causes your existence ................by such realization I found myself is the cause of my existence , all my suffering/ joy and my realization of Buddhism .

To me , "meditation" is a form of self searching , trying to explore own mind by freeing from own knowledge ...........but thats my own version . Out there many people have many different way of meditation but for me whenever I need to think on business , on family matters etc I drive ...I drive my car for hours and hours ...I found peace by driving into woods .................

Thanks so whats yours reason .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

There you go again proclaiming your Buddhism is a learning process.
And what do you know of meditation if you have never even tried to meditate??
Now you presume to know things which you have no experience??
You are too much for me to debate.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 149893
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Reply from esoteric
Feb.13.2013
09:56AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Again , I just want to learn , need to learn .........sincerely what I wish to to learn more and more on Buddhism because I found peace in Buddhism . Buddhism makes me less fear on death and less carry the burden on myself ...................

I just wish by debating I could explore areas that i never been or experience new realization . By debating I advance into greater understanding and with that I could share my understanding with my 13 years old daughter .

As A father , and still a human with emotion as a common father I just hope my daughter could live her life with less fear on death , less suffering on losing love one , less suffering on sickness and old age .

So if my daughter could accept old age , sickness or death and living a life freedom of fear , happy with understanding on Buddhism ..that will be my greatest gift as a father and sorry dear Avisitor , you still think I just having ego to defend my view ........


.........

If you would explore areas you've never been or experience new realization, and advance into greater understanding and share that understanding with your daughter, then do this:

Make her smile and laugh as much as you can.
Help her up when she falls.
Console her when she cries.
Encourage her to try again when she fails.
Show her that it's okay to make mistakes, as many as is needed.
Then, teach her to do these things for all other people as well.
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Reply from esoteric
Feb.13.2013
09:57AM EDT 
vertical line Every moment, be present.
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Reply from Avisitor
Feb.13.2013
11:36AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Every moment, be present. "
.........

Good advice
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Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.13.2013
12:02PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Again , I just want to learn , need to learn .........sincerely what I wish to to learn more and more on Buddhism because I found peace in Buddhism . Buddhism makes me less fear on death and less carry the burden on myself ...................

I just wish by debating I could explore areas that i never been or experience new realization . By debating I advance into greater understanding and with that I could share my understanding with my 13 years old daughter .

As A father , and still a human with emotion as a common father I just hope my daughter could live her life with less fear on death , less suffering on losing love one , less suffering on sickness and old age .

So if my daughter could accept old age , sickness or death and living a life freedom of fear , happy with understanding on Buddhism ..that will be my greatest gift as a father and sorry dear Avisitor , you still think I just having ego to defend my view ........


.........

If you would explore areas you've never been or experience new realization, and advance into greater understanding and share that understanding with your daughter, then do this:

Make her smile and laugh as much as you can.
Help her up when she falls.
Console her when she cries.
Encourage her to try again when she fails.
Show her that it's okay to make mistakes, as many as is needed.
Then, teach her to do these things for all other people as well.
"
.........


.........

If you would explore areas you've never been or experience new realization, and advance into greater understanding and share that understanding with your daughter, then do this:

Make her smile and laugh as much as you can.
Help her up when she falls.
Console her when she cries.
Encourage her to try again when she fails.
Show her that it's okay to make mistakes, as many as is needed.
Then, teach her to do these things for all other people as well.
"
.........

I current choose rather differently ;-

I try to discuss her hapiness , her emotions when she smile or laught .

If she falls , I rather share my view on her condition before and after she fall .

When she cries , I choose to share her emotions what makes her sad , the reason why she feel sad , and the self that causes her to feel sad .

I so far never encourage she to do anything even her studies , just share my knowledge , my understanding with her and so far I do not put any pressure on her to do anything ...to me she is always free .

So far I NEVER teach her anything about spiritual just knowledge . yes i teach her on maths , on her school homeworks but in regards to herself I never teach her ..........To me , she will only change on her will and I do not wish she change because of me .

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.13.2013
12:26PM EDT 
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Dear Avisitor , you said I quote " There you go again proclaiming your Buddhism is a learning process." un-quote

Seems to me you are expecting me to say something sueding for you , something similar to your faith ........Dear friend , we are in debate so if you dis-agree you could  find your reason to counter my reason ....you are free to explain why you have different view .....


You said I quote " And what do you know of meditation if you have never even tried to meditate??Now you presume to know things which you have no experience??
Un-quote

There are perhaps thousands method of meditation out there , some practice walking meditation or sitting in a particular possition under a tree or follow certain chanting before meditation ............why are you pointing ONLY to your method of meditation ? I already told you my version of meditation and my common way of finding peace in my mind ......but seems to me is NOT accepted by you . So if I told you I learned certain method from a monk you will accept it ?...............and you keep judge me , be-little my understanding WITHOUT debating it .....lets share your view my friend as I had said many times , you are teacher to me at any time ...................lets share your experiences , what had you learned from meditation , your finding / your realization even your " actualization"....................

Stop live in my life , lets share our understanding shall we .I really hope you could debate more , dont be like others "master" break off with me after a while .

Thks

CSEe

Dear Avisitor , you said , I quote "You are too much for me to debate." un-quote

To me No one will never be too much to debate .......perhaps you had intention / desire / expectation / demand of me .........but as for me I never feel any pressure or problems debating with any people BECAUSE I never HAD any expectation , never had any intention to teach  except to learn , never had any demand ...so I always eager to debate because I always find new awareness , new realization debating with others..........

Dear Avisitor , I see all people , all animal , all non-living is SAME and EQUAL as me and all are learning source so is always excited to discover myself from them

 .....Thks

CSEe

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Reply from frozenaomi
Feb.13.2013
01:50PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: Self Realization to me is realizing YOU and YOURSELF .......realizing you as "emptiness" and realizing " yourself" as all your emotions / desire / love / compassion that causes your existence ................by such realization I found myself is the cause of my existence , all my suffering/ joy and my realization of Buddhism ."
.........

CSEe, I have no capacity to say whether you are right or wrong, and whether or not I agree seems moot, but I do have to say that I hope there are other pathways.  If the price of non-suffering is to surrender love, compassion, joy and hope then I think the cost is too dear for me to be willing to pay. 

Although maybe we are too focused on nonsuffering.  Isn't suffering a part of reality?  Aught we not accept that too?  Would your process still be leading you into oblivion if you weren't running away from suffering? 
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Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.13.2013
02:50PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: Self Realization to me is realizing YOU and YOURSELF .......realizing you as "emptiness" and realizing " yourself" as all your emotions / desire / love / compassion that causes your existence ................by such realization I found myself is the cause of my existence , all my suffering/ joy and my realization of Buddhism ."
.........

CSEe, I have no capacity to say whether you are right or wrong, and whether or not I agree seems moot, but I do have to say that I hope there are other pathways.  If the price of non-suffering is to surrender love, compassion, joy and hope then I think the cost is too dear for me to be willing to pay. 

Although maybe we are too focused on nonsuffering.  Isn't suffering a part of reality?  Aught we not accept that too?  Would your process still be leading you into oblivion if you weren't running away from suffering? 
"
.........

To me currently , there is NO option as buddhism is the only PROCESS ...each being is in this PROCESS not by choice but its natural . Buddhism is NOT avoiding suffering or to surrender any emotions to ascape suffering , Buddhism is to understand , experience , accept all emotions by being awake leading to acceptance of it  and with the acceptance one will be free of such emotion .

So in my current understanding , joy / love / hope is SAME and EQUAL pollutant energy as other emotions ......that one need to learn , understand it , accept it and in time free of it .

Buddhism is NOT about non-suffering or avoiding suffering but with acceptance of ownselves one will be less having emotions , less having love / desire / greed / ego ...in short having " less self"....with a less self , one will be in a condition of lesser burden on self and this condition can be imagined as ' happy".......suffering is a reality IN HUMAN KNOWLEDGE , by human current acceptance , in human culture ......in Buddhism suffering is same energy as love or joy ... the pollutants that causes our existance .

To me , one should free all common knowledge on suffering and see it as an emotions that causes ourselves , causes our joy or hope .

The PROCESS of Buddhism is each being own process releasing own polluted energy back into emptiness ... and each being is in own process that never connected to others so in Buddhism there is NO right or WRONG , No true or false and No good or bad as all will be part of the process .........

Do let me know if I mis-understand your question , please share your view .

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from Avisitor
Feb.13.2013
03:10PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: Self Realization to me is realizing YOU and YOURSELF .......realizing you as "emptiness" and realizing " yourself" as all your emotions / desire / love / compassion that causes your existence ................by such realization I found myself is the cause of my existence , all my suffering/ joy and my realization of Buddhism ."
.........

CSEe, I have no capacity to say whether you are right or wrong, and whether or not I agree seems moot, but I do have to say that I hope there are other pathways.  If the price of non-suffering is to surrender love, compassion, joy and hope then I think the cost is too dear for me to be willing to pay. 

Although maybe we are too focused on nonsuffering.  Isn't suffering a part of reality?  Aught we not accept that too?  Would your process still be leading you into oblivion if you weren't running away from suffering? 
"
.........


In Zen Buddhism, we do no surrender love ... we embrace it
Compassion comes out of us like a spring
Desire doesn't rule us

Please don't be misled.
His ideas about Buddhism aren't completely wrong but they lack true understanding of Buddhism.
Cause only with actualization of enlightenment can he understand what those words he says really means.
What he says is wrong only cause of where his words comes from.
If it came from the experience of seeing his true nature then he would know it was right and not to speak of it as he has.
Saying the magic words doesn't produce the magic. It is the sorcerer who wields the power.


If you wish to debate with him then do so with the understanding that he can only point the way. He is not the way.
You have the ability to see the truth ... to be able to gauge his words.
Trust in yourself and believe in your own experiences.
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Reply from Avisitor
Feb.13.2013
03:16PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "So far I NEVER teach her anything about spiritual just knowledge . yes i teach her on maths , on her school homeworks but in regards to herself I never teach her ..........To me , she will only change on her will and I do not wish she change because of me .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

If not you then who is qualified to help her learn the spiritual???
If she is no different than the dirt on your shoes then hand her over to me and I will teach her the four noble truths and eightfold path ... hahahaha
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Reply from frozenaomi
Feb.13.2013
03:35PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
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“If you wish to debate with him then do so with the understanding that he can only point the way. He is not the way.”

I’m really not looking to debate.  I don’t want to adopt CSEe’s views or for CSEe to adopt mine (whatever those are).  I really only wish to understand where you all are coming from. 

 

In Zen Buddhism, we do no surrender love ... we embrace it
Compassion comes out of us like a spring
Desire doesn't rule us

That is good, but it seems like even Starduster was interested in oblivion.  Can there be love in nothingness?  It worries me.

 

“Buddhism is NOT about non-suffering or avoiding suffering but with acceptance of ownselves one will be less having emotions , less having love / desire / greed / ego ...in short having " less self"....with a less self , one will be in a condition of lesser burden on self and this condition can be imagined as ' happy".......suffering is a reality IN HUMAN KNOWLEDGE , by human current acceptance , in human culture ......in Buddhism suffering is same energy as love or joy ... the pollutants that causes our existence.”

 

I think I understand your distinction about process and between nothing and “ownselves” but still, if the process to developing an understanding of one’s ownself is to lose emotion I don’t understand why you want to pay it.  What value does “ownself” have that it is worth loosing compassion, love, joy and hope? 

Is there no option?  Wouldn’t resisting the process count?  Are some pollutions valuable if their by-products are good?  I can only understand this at the shallowest of level, but if I may be allowed an analogy:  some say the by-product of depression is art - if there is medication to clear up the pollution of depression and it takes away art is the cure more expensive than the disease? 

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Reply from football
Feb.13.2013
03:42PM EDT 
Email football
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Quote: "Buddhism is NOT about non-suffering or avoiding suffering"

The first noble truth is that Life is suffering.

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Reply from football
Feb.13.2013
04:55PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line Today I think I have found my way.Today I have hope.
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Reply from esoteric
Feb.13.2013
06:58PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "

Again , I just want to learn , need to learn .........sincerely what I wish to to learn more and more on Buddhism because I found peace in Buddhism . Buddhism makes me less fear on death and less carry the burden on myself ...................

I just wish by debating I could explore areas that i never been or experience new realization . By debating I advance into greater understanding and with that I could share my understanding with my 13 years old daughter .

As A father , and still a human with emotion as a common father I just hope my daughter could live her life with less fear on death , less suffering on losing love one , less suffering on sickness and old age .

So if my daughter could accept old age , sickness or death and living a life freedom of fear , happy with understanding on Buddhism ..that will be my greatest gift as a father and sorry dear Avisitor , you still think I just having ego to defend my view ........


.........

If you would explore areas you've never been or experience new realization, and advance into greater understanding and share that understanding with your daughter, then do this:

Make her smile and laugh as much as you can.
Help her up when she falls.
Console her when she cries.
Encourage her to try again when she fails.
Show her that it's okay to make mistakes, as many as is needed.
Then, teach her to do these things for all other people as well.
"
.........


.........

If you would explore areas you've never been or experience new realization, and advance into greater understanding and share that understanding with your daughter, then do this:

Make her smile and laugh as much as you can.
Help her up when she falls.
Console her when she cries.
Encourage her to try again when she fails.
Show her that it's okay to make mistakes, as many as is needed.
Then, teach her to do these things for all other people as well.
"
.........

I current choose rather differently ;-

I try to discuss her hapiness , her emotions when she smile or laught .

If she falls , I rather share my view on her condition before and after she fall .

When she cries , I choose to share her emotions what makes her sad , the reason why she feel sad , and the self that causes her to feel sad .

I so far never encourage she to do anything even her studies , just share my knowledge , my understanding with her and so far I do not put any pressure on her to do anything ...to me she is always free .

So far I NEVER teach her anything about spiritual just knowledge . yes i teach her on maths , on her school homeworks but in regards to herself I never teach her ..........To me , she will only change on her will and I do not wish she change because of me .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

vertical line Quote: "

Again , I just want to learn , need to learn .........sincerely what I wish to to learn more and more on Buddhism because I found peace in Buddhism . Buddhism makes me less fear on death and less carry the burden on myself ...................

I just wish by debating I could explore areas that i never been or experience new realization . By debating I advance into greater understanding and with that I could share my understanding with my 13 years old daughter .

As A father , and still a human with emotion as a common father I just hope my daughter could live her life with less fear on death , less suffering on losing love one , less suffering on sickness and old age .

So if my daughter could accept old age , sickness or death and living a life freedom of fear , happy with understanding on Buddhism ..that will be my greatest gift as a father and sorry dear Avisitor , you still think I just having ego to defend my view ........


.........

If you would explore areas you've never been or experience new realization, and advance into greater understanding and share that understanding with your daughter, then do this
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Reply from Avisitor
Feb.13.2013
07:54PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "In Zen Buddhism, we do no surrender love ... we embrace it

Compassion comes out of us like a spring
Desire doesn't rule us

That is good, but it seems like even Starduster was interested in oblivion.  Can there be love in nothingness?  It worries me.

  "

.........

You are talking about life and Starduster was talking about after life.
In the Buddhist model of things, people get reincarnated over and over again
It is due to karma. Once someone awakens then one is on another path ...
to stop re-birth and the endless cycle of suffering.
But, talk about life after death will only entangle and create dense jungle ...
Also, no one really knows what death will bring until one goes through it
Just like no one knows what awakening will bring until one goes through it.

Nothingness??
No, emptiness holds the possibility for all things
Nothingness doesn't exist .... hahaha
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Reply from Avisitor
Feb.13.2013
08:03PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line When asked about life after death, the Buddha replied, "... such ideas lead to dense jungles and arid deserts, to entanglements as though caught by thorns. They bring about anger, delusion, and argument and they do not bring about peace, knowledge, or wisdom leading to enlightenment. I do not take up any of these ideas."

It would be a good idea not to worry too much about stuff we can not change
Living in the moment, (I don't mean forgetting the future) one can come to peace.
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Reply from frozenaomi
Feb.13.2013
08:12PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line Yes, that all makes a lot of sense to me. Of corse there is value in poking into the areas I do not understand and stepping back and reanalyzing on the parts that I think I understand, but letting the moment stand and letting compassion dictate action are, to my mind, some of the more beautiful corners of my mental Zen garden scape.

I have read some interesting ideas on the notion and I wonder, what does the concept of emptiness containing everything mean to you?

What does the concept of emptiness being different from nothingness mean to you?
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Reply from Avisitor
Feb.13.2013
08:48PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Yes, that all makes a lot of sense to me. Of corse there is value in poking into the areas I do not understand and stepping back and reanalyzing on the parts that I think I understand, but letting the moment stand and letting compassion dictate action are, to my mind, some of the more beautiful corners of my mental Zen garden scape.

I have read some interesting ideas on the notion and I wonder, what does the concept of emptiness containing everything mean to you?

What does the concept of emptiness being different from nothingness mean to you?
"
.........

Emptiness is letting go of every layer that covers the very root of our existence.
By meditation, we quiet the mind. Like looking into a bucket of disturbed waters, we can not see the moon clearly.
The moon being our true self. When the mind is quiet, the water stills and the moon can be seen.
Our awareness can reflect our true selves
Our true selves holds all possibilities.
Becoming aware and growing from there is the essence of Buddhism.

Nothingness is a state where existence ceases.
A place where there is no possibility for change.
Such a place doesn't exist. Not in my mind.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.13.2013
08:55PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: Self Realization to me is realizing YOU and YOURSELF .......realizing you as "emptiness" and realizing " yourself" as all your emotions / desire / love / compassion that causes your existence ................by such realization I found myself is the cause of my existence , all my suffering/ joy and my realization of Buddhism ."
.........

CSEe, I have no capacity to say whether you are right or wrong, and whether or not I agree seems moot, but I do have to say that I hope there are other pathways.  If the price of non-suffering is to surrender love, compassion, joy and hope then I think the cost is too dear for me to be willing to pay. 

Although maybe we are too focused on nonsuffering.  Isn't suffering a part of reality?  Aught we not accept that too?  Would your process still be leading you into oblivion if you weren't running away from suffering? 
"
.........


In Zen Buddhism, we do no surrender love ... we embrace it
Compassion comes out of us like a spring
Desire doesn't rule us

Please don't be misled.
His ideas about Buddhism aren't completely wrong but they lack true understanding of Buddhism.
Cause only with actualization of enlightenment can he understand what those words he says really means.
What he says is wrong only cause of where his words comes from.
If it came from the experience of seeing his true nature then he would know it was right and not to speak of it as he has.
Saying the magic words doesn't produce the magic. It is the sorcerer who wields the power.


If you wish to debate with him then do so with the understanding that he can only point the way. He is not the way.
You have the ability to see the truth ... to be able to gauge his words.
Trust in yourself and believe in your own experiences.
"
.........

Dear Avisitor , sorry in advance if possible please read your writing again ......perhaps you will find yourself in your own writing .........you seems "know me" perhaps more than me , judge me based on your wish ...dont you think is un-fair to me ?

I am NOT here to influence anyone or introduce myself ......I am here to learn and I said it again I am here to learn..........So dear Avisitor why cant you debate with me in a friendly possitive manner with hope to learn from each other ? Stop focusing on " who I am" ...just focus on the topic NOT me ..you are very welcome to share your views against my understanding why dont you ? ..........

Sorry if my writing seems rude , I have no intention to up-set you .

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from Avisitor
Feb.13.2013
08:55PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line As for poking into areas we do not understand ....
There is a tale about a village of the blind.
One day they heard that a king from another village would use elephants to take over their village.
Never having had or knowing about an elephant, they went in search
Three blind men were sent out to find what an elephant was like.
One said it was like a big tube and very strong
the secondr said it was no more than a big flap of skin
The third said it was but a small braid of hair
Each touched upon the elephant but not one knew what it truly was.
Good luck in your endeavors.
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Reply from Avisitor
Feb.13.2013
09:00PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Dear Avisitor , sorry in advance if possible please read your writing again ......perhaps you will find yourself in your own writing .........you seems "know me" perhaps more than me , judge me based on your wish ...dont you think is un-fair to me ?

I am NOT here to influence anyone or introduce myself ......I am here to learn and I said it again I am here to learn..........So dear Avisitor why cant you debate with me in a friendly possitive manner with hope to learn from each other ? Stop focusing on " who I am" ...just focus on the topic NOT me ..you are very welcome to share your views against my understanding why dont you ? ..........

Sorry if my writing seems rude , I have no intention to up-set you .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Like you know more than Buddha himself??
I judge you upon your words and actions here.
Fair or not, that is what I see and what I have said.
You seem to be upset cause you think I misjudge you??
Truth is that you see yourself different than your actions and words portray you.
When you read others reflection of you then you don't like it.
Realize this ... this is part of the process of Buddhism ... learn and grow from it .... hahahaha

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Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.13.2013
09:03PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "So far I NEVER teach her anything about spiritual just knowledge . yes i teach her on maths , on her school homeworks but in regards to herself I never teach her ..........To me , she will only change on her will and I do not wish she change because of me .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

If not you then who is qualified to help her learn the spiritual???
If she is no different than the dirt on your shoes then hand her over to me and I will teach her the four noble truths and eightfold path ... hahahaha
"
.........

"
.........

If not you then who is qualified to help her learn the spiritual???
If she is no different than the dirt on your shoes then hand her over to me and I will teach her the four noble truths and eightfold path ... hahahaha
"
.........

Perhaps thats the reason of human existence ....human suffering because they creates more and more "special love" , they creates "relationship" in their lifes , creates ownership .........many think that a father HAVE the right to influence his daughter in her spiritual search.........influence her into religion , creates beliefs etc .......I think she had understood that all being is her teacher ...NOT just you my friend ......

Since you eager to teach , why dont you "teach" me by debating with me , NOT for show but truely for my learning lesson .

You seems refer this so call " four noble truths and eightfold path" as your referal to Buddhism , so why cant you share your own understanding of that "teaching" with me ?

Dear Avisitor , lets debate shall we ..................

Thks

CSEe 

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Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.13.2013
09:34PM EDT 
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Dear frozenaomi , you said I quote " I think I understand your distinction about process and between nothing and “ownselves” but still, if the process to developing an understanding of one’s ownself is to lose emotion I don’t understand why you want to pay it.  What value does “ownself” have that it is worth loosing compassion, love, joy and hope?  " un-quote

The PROCESS of Buddhism in my current understanding is NOT resulted from desire or wishes ...so this PROCESS is not " to developing an understanding of oneself is to lose emotions"......but the emotion WILL BE DECREASED naturally without any desire ...............is the natural process of all beings not just human but all livuing and non-living . Buddhism is a process of all being releasing its polluted energy into nothingness ................I do not know how or scientific explaination but currently this is the best reason for all my question / search .

In Buddhism one will understanding NO distinction of happy verses sorrow , no good verses bad , no right verses wrong and no true verses false .......so in Buddhism one will understanding and accept that compassion / love / hope / joy is all same as sadness / greed / anger etc ......all emotions is polluted energy causing our existence .............................

Dear frozenaomi , you said I quote " Is there no option?  Wouldn’t resisting the process count?" Un-quote

All action /re-action is just part of this process ....one could take shorter / easier / less suffering journey perhaps like " any "kind / good person" in our sociaty or to take more suffering / longer journey perhaps like a serial killer .........all being is free to accept Buddhism , against it but NATURALLY it will all be part of the process .......

Dear frozenaomi , you said I quote "   Are some pollutions valuable if their by-products are good?  I can only understand this at the shallowest of level, but if I may be allowed an analogy:  some say the by-product of depression is art - if there is medication to clear up the pollution of depression and it takes away art is the cure more expensive than the disease?  " Un-quote

In knowledge , by human culture  YES there are distinction of good or bad , but in my current understanding there is no distinction on good or bad . Is Dalai Lama good compare to Osama ? Is Osama bad compare to Siddharta ? ..........In my current understanding of Buddhism all of them are SAME and EQUAL as Dalai Lama words could show Osama of hmself and Osama is teaching Dalai Lama by his action...and all of them is great teacher to me .

If you have desire to "help" does this make you a good person ? In human culture YES , in Buddhism you need to understand your desire , emotion on your action whether " good" or " bad" ....and nothing you could help or do good or bad to others and vice versa .......

If you still understand the comparison ...you still need to learn it . Buddhism will free you from knowing any comparison .........

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.13.2013
09:51PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Buddhism is NOT about non-suffering or avoiding suffering"

The first noble truth is that Life is suffering.

"
.........

"
.........

YES , that is in human culture by human acceptance ...............life is truely suffering but life is NOT you and you are NOT " the life".............................life is the road , you are the driver ....life is suffering because "self" is polluted energy ......that causes the existence of life .........so is your choice to be the road or be the driver

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.13.2013
10:23PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Dear Avisitor , you said I quote " Like you know more than Buddha himself??
I judge you upon your words and actions here.
Fair or not, that is what I see and what I have said.
You seem to be upset cause you think I misjudge you??
Truth is that you see yourself different than your actions and words portray you.
When you read others reflection of you then you don't like it.
Realize this ... this is part of the process of Buddhism ... learn and grow from it .... hahahaha" Un-quote

YES you are right , NOT just part of my learning process even yours ..........to me you should forget marking me , erase me in your mind , see me as CSEe not the one you created ........I never have any ill feeling on you but you keep on marking me as you wish ...yes you have all right to do it , as this is your learning process but this is a Buddhism discussion website ...therefore you should focusing on the topic not personal attack on me , is not fair to all even to yourself .........

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from esoteric
Feb.13.2013
10:43PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: Self Realization to me is realizing YOU and YOURSELF .......realizing you as "emptiness" and realizing " yourself" as all your emotions / desire / love / compassion that causes your existence ................by such realization I found myself is the cause of my existence , all my suffering/ joy and my realization of Buddhism ."
.........

CSEe, I have no capacity to say whether you are right or wrong, and whether or not I agree seems moot, but I do have to say that I hope there are other pathways.  If the price of non-suffering is to surrender love, compassion, joy and hope then I think the cost is too dear for me to be willing to pay. 

Although maybe we are too focused on nonsuffering.  Isn't suffering a part of reality?  Aught we not accept that too?  Would your process still be leading you into oblivion if you weren't running away from suffering? 
"
.........


In Zen Buddhism, we do no surrender love ... we embrace it
Compassion comes out of us like a spring
Desire doesn't rule us

Please don't be misled.
His ideas about Buddhism aren't completely wrong but they lack true understanding of Buddhism.
Cause only with actualization of enlightenment can he understand what those words he says really means.
What he says is wrong only cause of where his words comes from.
If it came from the experience of seeing his true nature then he would know it was right and not to speak of it as he has.
Saying the magic words doesn't produce the magic. It is the sorcerer who wields the power.


If you wish to debate with him then do so with the understanding that he can only point the way. He is not the way.
You have the ability to see the truth ... to be able to gauge his words.
Trust in yourself and believe in your own experiences.
"
.........

Dear Avisitor , sorry in advance if possible please read your writing again ......perhaps you will find yourself in your own writing .........you seems "know me" perhaps more than me , judge me based on your wish ...dont you think is un-fair to me ?

I am NOT here to influence anyone or introduce myself ......I am here to learn and I said it again I am here to learn..........So dear Avisitor why cant you debate with me in a friendly possitive manner with hope to learn from each other ? Stop focusing on " who I am" ...just focus on the topic NOT me ..you are very welcome to share your views against my understanding why dont you ? ..........

Sorry if my writing seems rude , I have no intention to up-set you .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Dear CSEe, there is no topic apart from who you are and what you are. No Buddhism or debate beyond that.

Sincerely wishing you well.

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Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.13.2013
10:48PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Dear Avisitor , you said I quote " Emptiness is letting go of every layer that covers the very root of our existence." un-quote

Buddhism perhaps is the process freedom of " every layers that covers the very roots of our existence"........emptiness is the condition freedom of all exostence .


Dear Avisitor , you said I quote " By meditation, we quiet the mind. Like looking into a bucket of disturbed waters, we can not see the moon clearly.
The moon being our true self. When the mind is quiet, the water stills and the moon can be seen.
Our awareness can reflect our true selves
Our true selves holds all possibilities.
Becoming aware and growing from there is the essence of Buddhism." Un-quote

Just sharing , I hope you do not mind I share my view on this . To me , I medition to explore any possibilities of the un-known .......therefore I will explore beyond common knowledge ...so if one have desire to quiet the mind , to accept the knowledge of the water , condition of the disturning effects and expect to see the moon after its clear .....one will always know what they already known..............realization is not by desire , by wishes or plan but by being awake to aware , aware to realize ...........if one plan to stills the mind , the mind will always be stills as resulted by a desire and reflects on the views on expectation .........

Buddhism is a PROCESS not happens during meditation but is in each moment in our journey ......................during eating , walking , watching TV , having sex , watching others having sex , drinking in bar with wife or wifes...sitting on toilet bowl etc........



Dear Avisitor , you said I quote " Nothingness is a state where existence ceases.
A place where there is no possibility for change.
Such a place doesn't exist. Not in my mind." un-quote

Yes I agreed nothingness is a condition free of any pollutants ...and is YOU , is always YOU . Nothingness is of all being -all living or non-living is nothingness but with attachment of some polluted energy that causes its existence ...for human that polluted energy is the self of all emotions / will / desire / love / compassion etc ...........

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from *CSEe*
Feb.13.2013
10:51PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: Self Realization to me is realizing YOU and YOURSELF .......realizing you as "emptiness" and realizing " yourself" as all your emotions / desire / love / compassion that causes your existence ................by such realization I found myself is the cause of my existence , all my suffering/ joy and my realization of Buddhism ."
.........

CSEe, I have no capacity to say whether you are right or wrong, and whether or not I agree seems moot, but I do have to say that I hope there are other pathways.  If the price of non-suffering is to surrender love, compassion, joy and hope then I think the cost is too dear for me to be willing to pay. 

Although maybe we are too focused on nonsuffering.  Isn't suffering a part of reality?  Aught we not accept that too?  Would your process still be leading you into oblivion if you weren't running away from suffering? 
"
.........


In Zen Buddhism, we do no surrender love ... we embrace it
Compassion comes out of us like a spring
Desire doesn't rule us

Please don't be misled.
His ideas about Buddhism aren't completely wrong but they lack true understanding of Buddhism.
Cause only with actualization of enlightenment can he understand what those words he says really means.
What he says is wrong only cause of where his words comes from.
If it came from the experience of seeing his true nature then he would know it was right and not to speak of it as he has.
Saying the magic words doesn't produce the magic. It is the sorcerer who wields the power.


If you wish to debate with him then do so with the understanding that he can only point the way. He is not the way.
You have the ability to see the truth ... to be able to gauge his words.
Trust in yourself and believe in your own experiences.
"
.........

Dear Avisitor , sorry in advance if possible please read your writing again ......perhaps you will find yourself in your own writing .........you seems "know me" perhaps more than me , judge me based on your wish ...dont you think is un-fair to me ?

I am NOT here to influence anyone or introduce myself ......I am here to learn and I said it again I am here to learn..........So dear Avisitor why cant you debate with me in a friendly possitive manner with hope to learn from each other ? Stop focusing on " who I am" ...just focus on the topic NOT me ..you are very welcome to share your views against my understanding why dont you ? ..........

Sorry if my writing seems rude , I have no intention to up-set you .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Dear CSEe, there is no topic apart from who you are and what you are. No Buddhism or debate beyond that.

Sincerely wishing you well.
"
.........

"
.........

Dear CSEe, there is no topic apart from who you are and what you are. No Buddhism or debate beyond that.

Sincerely wishing you well.
"
.........

What I meant was , listen to the song NOT looking at the singer .........

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from so_teh
Feb.13.2013
11:34PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Go through void, then throw this void out. Help others through this.
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Reply from leoj99
Feb.13.2013
11:53PM EDT 
vertical line There more you talk the more you miss... Zen is silence.. don't talk...lol
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Reply from Avisitor
Feb.14.2013
09:12AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "There more you talk the more you miss... Zen is silence.. don't talk...lol "
.........

Good advice ... maybe ytou should heed your own advice??? ... hahaha
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