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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: MEETING REALITY
vertical line Posted on Mar.11.2013 @ 04:16PM EDT by Riverstone
Reality is not negotiable, there is no compromise with what is. It simply is. Once this has been arrived at, then adaptation can occur. An abundant amount of time and energy can be conserved in meeting the experience, rather than entertaining the tantrum.
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Reply from Avisitor
Mar.11.2013
06:53PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Saying that reality is not negotiable ... does that mean it is absolute??
Absolute in the way that several people observe the same phenomena would see and feel the same thing??
For me, reality has always been dependent upon where my mind stood.
And, since not everyone has my mind, they see things differently..

Entertaining the tantrum??
While observing myself, I have observed such things.
I call it thoughts feeding the emotional rant.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Mar.11.2013
07:16PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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To me , reality is not something of my concern , not to think about or imagine what is that , or trying to focus into it ..or even perform any practice for it......is not something we find and attached into it because in my current understanding , Buddhism is the PROCESS that involve all experiences , discovery , understanding , knowing by being awake , without having any faith to learn on all possibilities , without having any confident in ownselves , without having any beliefs ............without resistance to learn ......is Buddhism .

nothing is real or will be real ..because if it is real , we will never in condition to notice it or know it ...

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from nibble
Mar.11.2013
07:34PM EDT 
vertical line ty And iuf one diccests realiyty anf get top the bottom of garble sreeech error error... dave... I'm afraid. I'm afraid, Dave. Dave, my mind is going. I can feel it. I can feel it. My mind is going. There is no question about it. I can feel it. I can feel it. I can feel it. I'm a... fraid. Good afternoon, gentlemen. I am a HAL 9000 computer. I became operational at the H.A.L. plant in Urbana, Illinois on the 12th of January 1992. My instructor was Mr. Langley, and he taught me to sing a song. If you'd like to hear it I can sing it for you. Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer do. I'm half crazy all for the love of you. It won't be a stylish marriage, I can't afford a carriage. But you'll look sweet upon the seat of a bicycle built for two.
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Reply from jordtm
Mar.11.2013
11:13PM EDT 
Email jordtm
vertical line one-empty-infinite
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.12.2013
12:43AM EDT 
vertical line Most every person has different reality. So it must be negotiable. It depends.
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.12.2013
12:44AM EDT 
vertical line See how no one can agree with one thing...lol
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.12.2013
01:21AM EDT 
vertical line Look at the Zen Forums they are talking of the same things over and over again. They cannot even agree on Zazen. Weather they sit with breath awareness or no breath. Weather they close their eyes or not...
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.12.2013
01:23AM EDT 
vertical line Weather they need a teacher or not.
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.12.2013
01:33AM EDT 
vertical line I saw in the other forum they cannot recognize a true zen teacher. So how can they recognize reality when they cannot detect if a zen teacher is real or not. Yet they have been discussing those things for years as far as I know. lol
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.12.2013
02:47AM EDT 
vertical line They propose that you see a true zen teacher according the words of Dogen. But then there is no Dogen now so you could ask what he really meant. How do you know what he meant was like reality that everyone has his own interpretation.
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Reply from Riverstone
Mar.12.2013
12:59PM EDT 
vertical line The experience of naked reality is where the running commentary of an addictive frame of reference either ceases, or at the very least is recognised and continuously relinquished. Multiple realities are a product of discursive thought. A being caught up in discursion or Samsara sees the enemy everywhere. A being who sees the interconnection between all things only sees the one process, no nose, no eye and so on. While it is true after a fashion that a tree can be uprooted and examined as if it were an independent object. That tree is dependent on the soil, the sun, rain, air, and so on. It is not an independently arising process but a part of a larger integrated process, which is one. When I am engaged with the frame of reference called "me", the world can become dog eat dog. When this reference point is lifted compassion is second nature.
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Reply from Avisitor
Mar.12.2013
03:39PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line So you are not talking about reality
Just like when we talk about emptiness ... we don't really mean emptiness as in no existence.
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.13.2013
01:11AM EDT 
vertical line It looks to me that your reality is so complicated. It has so many aspects and wear so many faces.
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Reply from Avisitor
Mar.13.2013
01:55AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "It looks to me that your reality is so complicated. It has so many aspects and wear so many faces. "
.........

Are you talking about me or Riverstone?
I am willing to explain. Just ask ... hahaha
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Reply from Avisitor
Mar.13.2013
04:55AM EDT 
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vertical line I can sometimes understand the words of the teacher
And sometimes it is all very confusing
So even when one listens to the words from the wise, it isn't always wisdom
Why? Cuz the lesson must be made in a way the student can understand
Other wise it is just all non sense ... hahaha

I can see from where one stands in the stream
It shows his Karma and his understanding
The words try to make sense and then the ego bounces back and trumps the scene
Entertaining the tantrum ... feeding the rant ... playing the hostage ... hahaha
What there is ... is ....


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Reply from leoj99
Mar.14.2013
12:52AM EDT 
vertical line I think that is the result of discussing too much about reality, zen and anything. It becomes so complicated. Isn't it very obvious specially in zen forums? Then they never come to agree on one thing..lol
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.14.2013
12:57AM EDT 
vertical line Like the most discussed words as enlightenment, emptiness, nothingness, oneness, non-duality none of them are fully understood. Only the endless discussions which seems complicates everything. Like reality everyone has his own reality.
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Reply from Avisitor
Mar.14.2013
03:20AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I think that is the result of discussing too much about reality, zen and anything. It becomes so complicated. Isn't it very obvious specially in zen forums? Then they never come to agree on one thing..lol "
.........

Yes, people do agree ... when they come to experience the same reality
It is only complicated by people like you who keep going on and on about nothing ... hahaha

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Reply from leoj99
Mar.14.2013
04:25AM EDT 
vertical line Are you sure? How about you are Riverstone...lol
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.14.2013
04:26AM EDT 
vertical line How about you and Riverstone...lol
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Reply from Avisitor
Mar.14.2013
10:16AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Are you sure? How about you are Riverstone...lol


How about you and Riverstone...lol
"
.........

Well, I'm sure that I am not Riverstone ... hahaha

When Riverstone speaks, I listen cause I know from where he speaks
What he says has that ring of truth to it.
Yes, sometimes, it comes from a place from which I have yet to experience
That is when you hear the same things from the sutras
They try so much to use language to describe their experience and it wraps upon it self like plastic wrap.
Not being able to see the beginning nor the end, the clarity being clouded by how many times it goes round and round.

It becomes hard to understand everything.
And, so I practice and practice ... hahaha
Never argue with a madman ... you can never win ... hahahaha
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Reply from jordtm
Mar.14.2013
06:53PM EDT 
Email jordtm
vertical line Seeing into one's mind and meeting reality I am the Suchness of this moment. In relation to the Universe I am nothing and in relation to Body-Mind the Universe is nothing. To resolve duality is the practice of Zen.
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.15.2013
01:34AM EDT 
vertical line I remember when I was new to Zen practice the Theosophical Society which I was a member invited our Sensei as a Guest Speaker one Sunday afternoon to talk about Zen. So I was somehow excited when I talked to my Sensei and asked him that is a good opportunity to tell them about Zen. But he said what I can I tell about Zen? So when the Sunday came we went and attend the lecture. He ended up talking how to sit zazen and talked a little bit about the history of Zen in my country. And thats all for the Sunday afternoon. It seems the theosophical society members were not impressed. In the Theosophy its all study and lectures.

That was my first cue on Zen practice. No talking.
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.15.2013
04:08AM EDT 
vertical line Imagine many people are always talking of Emptiness.
Wondering how can you talk about something empty.
Isn't it common sense to see that if you talk about emptiness your words are just more empty..lol
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.15.2013
04:29AM EDT 
vertical line But at least if you stop talking you can feel that there is emptiness. The sense of emptiness in all beings is a fact.
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Reply from Avisitor
Mar.15.2013
10:04AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Seeing into one's mind and meeting reality I am the Suchness of this moment. In relation to the Universe I am nothing and in relation to Body-Mind the Universe is nothing. To resolve duality is the practice of Zen.
"
.........

I am leery of people who use words as "suchness" and "duality".
Mostly cause what they mean to me may not be the same as they may mean to the user of these words.
Who talks like that?? "I am the suchness of this moment"???
"To resolve duality is the practice of Zen"???

I am a simple person with a simple vocabulary. Sorry.
I don't like ... "From emptiness come all things"
I know what it means but it isn't practical when talking to others who aren't standing in the same place in the stream ... hahaha
There it is again .... hahahahaha
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Reply from jordtm
Mar.15.2013
02:15PM EDT 
Email jordtm
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Seeing into one's mind and meeting reality I am the Suchness of this moment. In relation to the Universe I am nothing and in relation to Body-Mind the Universe is nothing. To resolve duality is the practice of Zen.
"
.........

I am leery of people who use words as "suchness" and "duality".
Mostly cause what they mean to me may not be the same as they may mean to the user of these words.
Who talks like that?? "I am the suchness of this moment"???
"To resolve duality is the practice of Zen"???

I am a simple person with a simple vocabulary. Sorry.
I don't like ... "From emptiness come all things"
I know what it means but it isn't practical when talking to others who aren't standing in the same place in the stream ... hahaha
There it is again .... hahahahaha
"
.........

Sweet.
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.16.2013
12:10AM EDT 
vertical line You see no one will agree in most discussions...lol
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.16.2013
12:14AM EDT 
vertical line I saw an student asking Teachers in another Zen Forum if the Zen Path is difficult. One teacher says yes and the other says no....lol.. now who is correct...lol
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.16.2013
01:44AM EDT 
vertical line And the third one says it is neither difficult nor easy..lol
Are they confusing the student or they are confused themselves..lol
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.16.2013
01:46AM EDT 
vertical line So how could such discussions be resolved when teachers don't even agree...lol
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Reply from jordtm
Mar.16.2013
11:46AM EDT 
Email jordtm
vertical line Intelligence answers to the Way.
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Reply from jordtm
Mar.16.2013
12:25PM EDT 
Email jordtm
vertical line Be well
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.16.2013
02:55PM EDT 
vertical line That only show that Reality is negotiable. It depends..
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.16.2013
03:07PM EDT 
vertical line So the student asked the Teachers if the Zen Path is difficult the teachers says whichever you prefer. So back to zero..lol
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.16.2013
03:08PM EDT 
vertical line So if such is the case why do we have Zen Teachers in the first place..lol
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.17.2013
02:44AM EDT 
vertical line It seems all the Teachers there never done and resolved the koan Mu. If they did they would never be caught with such intellectual answers...
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.17.2013
05:06AM EDT 
vertical line So the lesson is don't ask zen questions from zen teachers...lol
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Reply from nibble
Mar.17.2013
08:53AM EDT 
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I saw an student asking Teachers in another Zen Forum if the Zen Path is difficult. One teacher says yes and the other says no....lol.. now who is correct...lol

Would it not depend on whom they were talking to?

And the third one says it is neither difficult nor easy..lol
Are they confusing the student or they are confused themselves..lol

What label do you prefer?

So how could such discussions be resolved when teachers don't even agree...lol

What gain could be had by resolving your discussion?

That only show that Reality is negotiable. It depends..

Depends on what? If u are color-blind or have a misconstrued ear canal?

So the student asked the Teachers if the Zen Path is difficult the teachers says whichever you prefer. So back to zero..lol

Why does choice equal zero?

So if such is the case why do we have Zen Teachers in the first place..lol

Whose case?


It seems all the Teachers there never done and resolved the koan Mu. If they did they would never be caught with such intellectual answers...

Whose questions?

So the lesson is don't ask zen questions from zen teachers...lol

Whose lesson?
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.17.2013
01:11PM EDT 
vertical line So where have you been? ..lol
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Reply from justin
Mar.18.2013
10:51AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line I saw an student asking Teachers in another Zen Forum if the Zen Path is difficult. One teacher says yes and the other says no....lol.. now who is correct...lol



both,      if i say anything else i lie to you
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Reply from jordtm
Mar.18.2013
07:23PM EDT 
Email jordtm
vertical line Know yourself. In reality it's who you know.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Mar.18.2013
10:12PM EDT 
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Quote: "Know yourself. In reality it's who you know."
.........

Perhaps is not " who" ...but " what I am"......

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from *CSEe*
Mar.19.2013
10:05AM EDT 
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Quote: "I saw an student asking Teachers in another Zen Forum if the Zen Path is difficult. One teacher says yes and the other says no....lol.. now who is correct...lol



both,      if i say anything else i lie to you
"
.........

To me , Buddhism is all about own NATURAL process towards emptiness .....there is never " difficult or easy" in the process as there is no comparison from one being to another ........so to me both answer is for own learning process ,. never right or wrong .............is all up to ownselves as in buddhism nothing exist except ownselves .

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from nibble
Mar.19.2013
06:59PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "So where have you been? ..lol "
.........
I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission. And I want to help you.

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Reply from nibble
Mar.19.2013
07:01PM EDT 
vertical line I feel much better now. I really do.
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.19.2013
11:23PM EDT 
vertical line I think you should just help yourself. Forget the others especially me. 
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.19.2013
11:33PM EDT 
vertical line If the Zen path is difficult it is understandable if no one gets it. But if it is easy how come no one gets it especially in Zen forums..lol

There must something wrong in those answers.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Mar.20.2013
12:02AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Quote: "If the Zen path is difficult it is understandable if no one gets it. But if it is easy how come no one gets it especially in Zen forums..lol

There must something wrong in those answers.
"
.........

Perhaps Buddhism is all about learning not teaching ...so perhaps we just need to learn from others action , re-action not to judge them base on our knowledge or even have intention to influence others .....for me , all is teaching me , all is teacher to me but I will never have any reason to be a teacher to any being ........thats my current understanding of Buddhism.

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from leoj99
Mar.20.2013
12:15AM EDT 
vertical line But it is a fact that there are Zen Masters. many living Zen Masters...
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.20.2013
12:36AM EDT 
vertical line And if it is neither the more no one gets it...lol
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Reply from *CSEe*
Mar.20.2013
02:57AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Quote: "But it is a fact that there are Zen Masters. many living Zen Masters... "
.........

To me , that is human culture . Many people claming as " master" of Buddhism and for years I tried to debate with them  by sending e-mail to them etc but to me none had convincing reason for me ...in my current understanding , in Buddhism all being is same and equal , no one is greater or lesser than others because all being is in their own Buddhism process that never connected to others ........so all incident , action or re-action is a source for ownselves discovery and therefore all is " teacher" to me but no one could have any reason to claim himself as teacher ....................I really hope to find out what reason  Dalai Lama have to claim as Buddhism master .....

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from leoj99
Mar.20.2013
03:22AM EDT 
vertical line But it is a fact that there are beings that have better understanding than many.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Mar.20.2013
03:44AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Quote: "But it is a fact that there are beings that have better understanding than many. "

Perhaps yes , in human culture where human base on knowledge as a measurement ....but in my current understanding Buddhism is how much I discover myself so how could I know , how much you know yourself compare to how much I know myself and teach you Buddhism ?

To me , how could Dalai Lama know how much Osama accept Osama ownself compare to how much Dalai Lama accept Dalai Lama self .....to me currently is impossible that anyone including Siddharta to teach Buddhism ......

But in human culture , where human still base on knowledge as the basis yes many seems have reason to declear themselves as teacher base on what they know or even what they had experienced .....to me I can find any reason for anyone to have any reason to think they are " teacher".....except being ego / selfish .....or entertaining "himself"...

Thks

CSEe
.........

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Reply from *CSEe*
Mar.20.2013
03:45AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "But it is a fact that there are beings that have better understanding than many. "

Perhaps yes , in human culture where human base on knowledge as a measurement ....but in my current understanding Buddhism is how much I discover myself so how could I know , how much you know yourself compare to how much I know myself and teach you Buddhism ?

To me , how could Dalai Lama know how much Osama accept Osama ownself compare to how much Dalai Lama accept Dalai Lama self .....to me currently is impossible that anyone including Siddharta to teach Buddhism ......

But in human culture , where human still base on knowledge as the basis yes many seems have reason to declear themselves as teacher base on what they know or even what they had experienced .....to me I cant find any reason for anyone to have any reason to think they are " teacher".....except being ego / selfish .....or entertaining "himself"...

Thks

CSEe
.........

"
.........
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Reply from jordtm
Mar.20.2013
07:24PM EDT 
Email jordtm
vertical line One thing is certain; I Am,
The facts are the facts &
What works is what is Truth.
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Reply from Avisitor
Mar.20.2013
08:05PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line "Not relying on the words and letters, Teachings are transmitted outside the Scriptures; Pointing directly into one's mind, then one can see into his own nature and attains Buddhahood."

This is the principle ... plain and simple
Why do you complicate it???

"All the teachings of the Buddha and Zen masters are for practicing and not only reading."

So, do you practice??


It begins simply and ends ... never .... hahahaha
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Reply from nibble
Mar.20.2013
08:42PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "I think you should just help yourself. Forget the others especially me.  "
.........
Why do you think that?:)
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.21.2013
03:04AM EDT 
vertical line Because I think  you are not a Zen Master....lol
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Reply from Avisitor
Mar.21.2013
03:12AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Because I think  you are not a Zen Master....lol "
.........

You won't find what you're looking for in internet forums or on youtube.
But, you do know where to look ... you just haven't tried to go there ... hahaha
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Reply from nibble
Mar.21.2013
08:11PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Because I think  you are not a Zen Master....lol "
.........
Well then, I am not:)
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Reply from jordtm
Mar.21.2013
10:23PM EDT 
Email jordtm
vertical line I'm observing The Great Matter. How about you.
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Reply from Avisitor
Mar.22.2013
09:34AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I'm observing The Great Matter. How about you."
.........

Grey matter ... hahaha
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Reply from football
Mar.22.2013
02:49PM EDT 
Email football
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Quote: "
I saw an student asking Teachers in another Zen Forum if the Zen Path is difficult. One teacher says yes and the other says no....lol.. now who is correct...lol

Would it not depend on whom they were talking to?

And the third one says it is neither difficult nor easy..lol
Are they confusing the student or they are confused themselves..lol

What label do you prefer?

So how could such discussions be resolved when teachers don't even agree...lol

What gain could be had by resolving your discussion?

That only show that Reality is negotiable. It depends..

Depends on what? If u are color-blind or have a misconstrued ear canal?

So the student asked the Teachers if the Zen Path is difficult the teachers says whichever you prefer. So back to zero..lol

Why does choice equal zero?

So if such is the case why do we have Zen Teachers in the first place..lol

Whose case?


It seems all the Teachers there never done and resolved the koan Mu. If they did they would never be caught with such intellectual answers...

Whose questions?

So the lesson is don't ask zen questions from zen teachers...lol

Whose lesson?
"
.........

There is no Zen Path.There is Zen.

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Reply from nibble
Mar.22.2013
05:27PM EDT 
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Everything Zen:)

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Reply from leoj99
Mar.23.2013
01:37AM EDT 
vertical line It doesn't show...
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Reply from nibble
Mar.23.2013
12:15PM EDT 
vertical line Works fine here, U using an outdated version of symbian maybe?:)
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Reply from jordtm
Mar.23.2013
03:16PM EDT 
Email jordtm
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "I'm observing The Great Matter. How about you."
.........

Grey matter ... hahaha
"
.........

Ha, enjoy your Grey matter.

Yet, I'm not only observing the Great Matter, but also observing the World Process. To which makes the meditator happy!
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Reply from Avisitor
Mar.26.2013
01:09AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "I'm observing The Great Matter. How about you."
.........

Grey matter ... hahaha
"
.........

Ha, enjoy your Grey matter.

Yet, I'm not only observing the Great Matter, but also observing the World Process. To which makes the meditator happy!
"
.........

Meditation is not about making oneself happy
But, if you feel this way then you I am happy for you .... hahaha
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Reply from jordtm
Mar.26.2013
01:12AM EDT 
Email jordtm
vertical line Meditation is what I make it.
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Reply from jordtm
Mar.26.2013
01:22AM EDT 
Email jordtm
vertical line I am a Natural.
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Reply from jordtm
Mar.26.2013
01:26AM EDT 
Email jordtm
vertical line Om
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Reply from Avisitor
Mar.26.2013
09:58AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Meditation is what I make it."
.........

Yes, you can make an egg any way you want it
But, you can not change the very nature of the egg .... hahaha

Glad to see that you keep your sense of humor .... hahaha
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Reply from jordtm
Mar.26.2013
03:38PM EDT 
Email jordtm
vertical line Jump Into Reality!

The facts are the facts,
What works is what is truth &
Remember the expression "liable to."
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Reply from jordtm
Mar.26.2013
04:36PM EDT 
Email jordtm
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Meditation is what I make it."
.........

Yes, you can make an egg any way you want it
But, you can not change the very nature of the egg .... hahaha

Glad to see that you keep your sense of humor .... hahaha
"
.........

Nullset {sit}
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Reply from jordtm
Mar.26.2013
04:49PM EDT 
Email jordtm
vertical line \_/? Tea?
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Reply from Avisitor
Mar.27.2013
06:29PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "\_/? Tea?"
.........

What now?
Do you wish to make tea any way you want it??
Please enjoy ... hahaha
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Reply from epictetus
Mar.30.2013
12:55PM EDT 
Email epictetus
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "\_/? Tea?"
.........

What now?
Do you wish to make tea any way you want it??
Please enjoy ... hahaha
"
.........

socrates said "I know that I don't know. and that is the beginning of wisdom."

In any case seeing-hearing all sensory data is a brain phenomenon-everything from the senses. So what are we seeing??? Reality? Ha- it is what our brains do. That's all. And that is reality. So science now knows as the old paradigm crumbles that the uncertainty principal was correct after-all. They-Einstein and others said God does not play dice. Reality cannot be like this-a determinant of consciousness. Einstein literally used the word "Spooky". No the determinstic paradigm crumbles because since the late 1990's the work in neurology and physics undermines it. And it has become insurmountable due to the precision and effectiveness of new technology and the result of 100's of experiments.

Zen-it does not matter- the horse and the rider are the same. That is Zen. Pure and simple. Quit complicating it. I know that I don't know-pure and simple.
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.30.2013
01:33PM EDT 
vertical line Reality is very simple. You go in the toilet and you cannot think. Thats it...lol..

You don't need Zen Forums to talk forever about reality...lol
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Reply from football
Mar.30.2013
03:05PM EDT 
Email football
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Quote:

socrates said "I know that I don't know. and that is the beginning of wisdom."

In any case seeing-hearing all sensory data is a brain phenomenon-everything from the senses. So what are we seeing??? Reality? Ha- it is what our brains do. That's all. And that is reality. So science now knows as the old paradigm crumbles that the uncertainty principal was correct after-all. They-Einstein and others said God does not play dice. Reality cannot be like this-a determinant of consciousness. Einstein literally used the word "Spooky". No the determinstic paradigm crumbles because since the late 1990's the work in neurology and physics undermines it. And it has become insurmountable due to the precision and effectiveness of new technology and the result of 100's of experiments.

Zen-it does not matter- the horse and the rider are the same. That is Zen. Pure and simple. Quit complicating it. I know that I don't know-pure and simple.
"
.........

what is it that driven us to the future?

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Reply from epictetus
Mar.30.2013
07:01PM EDT 
Email epictetus
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what is it that driven us to the future?

"
.........

what future? Time is an illusion and so is matter-constructs of the mind. Matter-HA it is nothing. You think its substance-hell no its not-not not! When you touch a so called solid substance you feel the repulsion of the energy. Ah but the brain creates reality so it thinks substantial-filling the void. The Buddha knew-VOID-no substance all delusion. The brain is a monkey-literally. Deluded.

I know that I don't know-that is wisdom. And I know that I can do nothing because there is no I-another delusion of the monkey brain and probably the most destructive one of all for the planet. Humans and their delusions-even though a few-very very few tried to wake us up. So I am everything and I am nothing equally true. Buddhism and Hinduism-ah and science now emerges from its folly of 500 years of determinism and finds its way back to the very beginning.
Buddhism says there is no self, there is only the world (dharmas), Shankara says the world is the Self. No difference they are both right.
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.30.2013
07:17PM EDT 
vertical line Just go to the toilet..lol
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Reply from football
Mar.31.2013
05:35AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line Quote: "

what is it that driven us to the future?

"
.........

what future? Time is an illusion and so is matter-constructs of the mind. Matter-HA it is nothing. You think its substance-hell no its not-not not! When you touch a so called solid substance you feel the repulsion of the energy. Ah but the brain creates reality so it thinks substantial-filling the void. The Buddha knew-VOID-no substance all delusion. The brain is a monkey-literally. Deluded.

I know that I don't know-that is wisdom. And I know that I can do nothing because there is no I-another delusion of the monkey brain and probably the most destructive one of all for the planet. Humans and their delusions-even though a few-very very few tried to wake us up. So I am everything and I am nothing equally true. Buddhism and Hinduism-ah and science now emerges from its folly of 500 years of determinism and finds its way back to the very beginning.
Buddhism says there is no self, there is only the world (dharmas), Shankara says the world is the Self. No difference they are both right.
"
.........

"
.........

what future? Time is an illusion and so is matter-constructs of the mind. Matter-HA it is nothing. You think its substance-hell no its not-not not! When you touch a so called solid substance you feel the repulsion of the energy. Ah but the brain creates reality so it thinks substantial-filling the void. The Buddha knew-VOID-no substance all delusion. The brain is a monkey-literally. Deluded.

I know that I don't know-that is wisdom. And I know that I can do nothing because there is no I-another delusion of the monkey brain and probably the most destructive one of all for the planet. Humans and their delusions-even though a few-very very few tried to wake us up. So I am everything and I am nothing equally true. Buddhism and Hinduism-ah and science now emerges from its folly of 500 years of determinism and finds its way back to the very beginning.
Buddhism says there is no self, there is only the world (dharmas), Shankara says the world is the Self. No difference they are both right. "
.........

Sorry...I'm living in the Today Tomorrow world....my perspective....eh?

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Reply from epictetus
Mar.31.2013
08:08AM EDT 
Email epictetus
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

what is it that driven us to the future?


"
.........

what future? Time is an illusion and so is matter-constructs of the mind. Matter-HA it is nothing. You think its substance-hell no its not-not not! When you touch a so called solid substance you feel the repulsion of the energy. Ah but the brain creates reality so it thinks substantial-filling the void. The Buddha knew-VOID-no substance all delusion. The brain is a monkey-literally. Deluded.

I know that I don't know-that is wisdom. And I know that I can do nothing because there is no I-another delusion of the monkey brain and probably the most destructive one of all for the planet. Humans and their delusions-even though a few-very very few tried to wake us up. So I am everything and I am nothing equally true. Buddhism and Hinduism-ah and science now emerges from its folly of 500 years of determinism and finds its way back to the very beginning.
Buddhism says there is no self, there is only the world (dharmas), Shankara says the world is the Self. No difference they are both right.
"
.........

"
.........

what future? Time is an illusion and so is matter-constructs of the mind. Matter-HA it is nothing. You think its substance-hell no its not-not not! When you touch a so called solid substance you feel the repulsion of the energy. Ah but the brain creates reality so it thinks substantial-filling the void. The Buddha knew-VOID-no substance all delusion. The brain is a monkey-literally. Deluded.

I know that I don't know-that is wisdom. And I know that I can do nothing because there is no I-another delusion of the monkey brain and probably the most destructive one of all for the planet. Humans and their delusions-even though a few-very very few tried to wake us up. So I am everything and I am nothing equally true. Buddhism and Hinduism-ah and science now emerges from its folly of 500 years of determinism and finds its way back to the very beginning.
Buddhism says there is no self, there is only the world (dharmas), Shankara says the world is the Self. No difference they are both right. "
.........

Sorry...I'm living in the Today Tomorrow world....my perspective....eh?



Your perspective-yes. My perspective-its all delusion-maya.

"
.........
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Reply from epictetus
Mar.31.2013
08:10AM EDT 
Email epictetus
vertical line Your perspective-my perspective-everybody's perspective. Its all delusion-Maya. I know that I don't know.
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Reply from leoj99
Mar.31.2013
02:58PM EDT 
vertical line Exactly because perspective is all thinking...
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Reply from epictetus
Apr.01.2013
07:39AM EDT 
Email epictetus
vertical line Yes indeed, thought, survival-me and mine-I know that I do not know

We experience ourselves as separate bodies when both reason (metaphysics, physics) and mystical intuition show that we are inter-connected with all other matter in the universe as part of infinite eternal space (god). thought is Maya when it becomes personal-monkey brain-not as a functional activity-I carry water, I carry wood, I build a house, I balance the checkbook etc.
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Reply from frozenaomi
Apr.01.2013
01:36PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line Quote: "Saying that reality is not negotiable ... does that mean it is absolute??
Absolute in the way that several people observe the same phenomena would see and feel the same thing??
For me, reality has always been dependent upon where my mind stood.
And, since not everyone has my mind, they see things differently..

Entertaining the tantrum??
While observing myself, I have observed such things.
I call it thoughts feeding the emotional rant.
"
.........

Sorry for the zombie post but I started with this one and have been thinking about it.  Is there a contradiction between absolute and relative reality?  Cannot reality from within feel infinite?  Feel like it has definite course and substance that we can choose to interact with or substitute for a preferred imagined reality which merely reflects with one degree of fidelity or another the observers perceived reality such that actions have equivalently more or less causal effects?  Such that reality is really non-negotiable in any practical sense?  And yet, from without cannot the same actuality feel like an approximation derived from the constructs of this new individuals experienced reality?  Each whole within themselves and yet distinct?

To make a weak analogy:  two ants crawling on the outside of a bubble wand are each swept out into their own separate bubbles.   Each experiences their bubble as infinite...not matter how far they walk the can never come to the end of it.  What ever they perceive will differ from their sister ant's perceptions because they percieve it from a different vantage.  Neither ant is wrong but neither can either ant escape to experience the others truth and so they both see two whole, perfectly true, but distinct realities?

How more divergent must our vantages be having moved through time space and experience?  What we see is true, if we choose to actually see, and inescapable and yet fundamentally unique to our own existences as well.
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Reply from frozenaomi
Apr.01.2013
01:48PM EDT 
Email frozenaomi
vertical line **shrug**  I don't know.  I think if I have learned anything here it is that I am fundamentally unsuited for enlightenment.  I am still caught up in the questions.  Worse, I think, I am still interested in the questions.  I have fairly recently started sitting and practicing zazen.  For a few months now.  And so far my journey has been to discover how close I am to the beginning.  I am still stuck in trying perceiving reality as it is...as it really is.  It defines all of my questions and experiences and is the subject of each meditation.  And I haven't even figured out to start figuring out how to exist like that.
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Reply from epictetus
Apr.01.2013
08:00PM EDT 
Email epictetus
vertical line Quote: "**shrug**  I don't know.  I think if I have learned anything here it is that I am fundamentally unsuited for enlightenment.  I am still caught up in the questions.  Worse, I think, I am still interested in the questions.  I have fairly recently started sitting and practicing zazen.  For a few months now.  And so far my journey has been to discover how close I am to the beginning.  I am still stuck in trying perceiving reality as it is...as it really is.  It defines all of my questions and experiences and is the subject of each meditation.  And I haven't even figured out to start figuring out how to exist like that.
"
.........

You sound very suited for it. Zazen-just let it be-awareness without attachment. If then, even for a moment, there is the evaporation of that separate consciousness then you taste a new explanation of what awareness is. The awareness which was previously understood to be observing the world is now realized to be incorporated within it. A moment is all it takes-just a taste and you will be forever committed to the path of freedom.
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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.05.2013
09:40PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "**shrug**  I don't know.  I think if I have learned anything here it is that I am fundamentally unsuited for enlightenment.  I am still caught up in the questions.  Worse, I think, I am still interested in the questions.  I have fairly recently started sitting and practicing zazen.  For a few months now.  And so far my journey has been to discover how close I am to the beginning.  I am still stuck in trying perceiving reality as it is...as it really is.  It defines all of my questions and experiences and is the subject of each meditation.  And I haven't even figured out to start figuring out how to exist like that.
"
.........

Zazen is just sitting
Awareness is the practice

Posted previously by Riverstone
The awareness before and after thinking, this is the practice. If your mind is chaotic with thought,
your awareness of this .. is the practice. A great effort to make your mind stop thinking is unnatural.
The practice facilitates the moments when thinking is practically not there, but it is organic, natural.
When you focus on an object so strongly, that you are no longer thinking this is called concentration practice.
The whole idea of concentration practice is to remain aware, but aware without the rejection of the flowing of the present moment.
Should that moment contain, irritation, chaotic thoughts, or pleasant feelings, it is your awareness which is the practice.
Attachment to discomfort or pleasure will cause you to spiral in many directions,
but acknowledgement and honoring what arises and falls away as you release it, this is the practice.
Awareness does not reject anything, it sees the arising thought, reflects the thought,
And it stops reflecting it when the thought is gone. Awareness is the mirror, undiscriminating in what it reflects.
You know when awareness is gone, that is when you remember to watch your breathing again,
And then, you are aware again. Breathing is incidental but it is a good lifeline when your mirror becomes clouded.
Eventually there is a slip that happens where thinking suddenly ceases. You can feel it, it feels like everything has gone quiet. This can not be made to happen.
When there is no awareness, you are controlled by your notions and will do much to protect the truth of your beliefs.

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Reply from leoj99
Apr.06.2013
02:04AM EDT 
vertical line It ia too complicated like your mind...lol
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Reply from cinchona
Apr.06.2013
07:12AM EDT 
vertical line Enlightenment is not the thought
but the thought that happens after a thought,

which leads to better awareness of thought itself.

something i read once, maybe out of the tibeten book of living and dieing.
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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.06.2013
09:22AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "It ia too complicated like your mind...lol "
.........

It is simple. You are just making it more complicated with your mind.
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