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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: WHAT IS THIS ?
vertical line Posted on Apr.02.2013 @ 11:30AM EDT by justin
REBIRTH BY THE BUDDHA
"But," asked Vaccha persistently, "when one who has this emancipation of mind
(freed from self) dies, where does he go, where is he reborn?
The Buddha replied:
"The word 'reborn' does not fit the case."
"Then he is not reborn?"
"To say that he is not reborn does not fit the case either. Nor should you say that
he is both reborn and not reborn or, indeed, that he is neither reborn nor not reborn."
"I am totally bewildered, Buddha, and my faith in you has gone."
"Never mind being bewildered. This is a deep and difficult doctrine to understand.
Imagine there is a fire in front of you. You see it burning and know that it can
only burn if it has fuel. And then you see that it has gone out. Now, somebody asks
you, to which quarter has the fire gone - east, west, north, or south? What would you say?
"I would say that such as question does not fit the case, Buddha. For the fire depends on
fuel, and when there is no more fuel, the fire to be said to be out through lack
of nourishment."
"In just the same way, Vaccha, the body in which one can see the truth will die out, like a
fan palm, without any future. But that which is the truth, that which is existence itself,
is there although it is deep and infinitely hard to understand. Like the great ocean,
one cannot fathom it. And so it does not fit the case to say that I will be reborn will
not be reborn."

From Digha Nikaya of the Buddha
Edited by Anne Bancroft

Chon Tri 01/02/2011

zenguide


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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.05.2013
01:00PM EDT 
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vertical line That story is an aid to understanding the three marks of existence
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 150872
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Reply from cinchona
Apr.06.2013
08:56AM EDT 
vertical line a lullaby
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 150893
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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.06.2013
09:26AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "a lullaby"
.........

Then, have you been asleep all your life???
You may have your doubts
You may have your worries
But, the truth is always there for you
The choice has always been yours
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Reply from cinchona
Apr.06.2013
10:02AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "a lullaby"
.........

Then, have you been asleep all your life???
You may have your doubts
You may have your worries
But, the truth is always there for you
The choice has always been yours
"
.........

my words exactly.
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Reply from cinchona
Apr.06.2013
10:16AM EDT 
vertical line my worries are your worries
i just like talking zen
isn't it strange, this oppisite
that we missunderstand.
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Reply from leoj99
Apr.06.2013
06:12PM EDT 
vertical line Don't put fuel to your mind so it won't be thinking like wild fire...lol
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Reply from leoj99
Apr.06.2013
06:14PM EDT 
vertical line For no matter what you think and what you are thinking.. it doesn't affect the ocean, it doesn't affect the truth...
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Reply from nibble
Apr.06.2013
07:06PM EDT 
vertical line Just because I like to disagree with you:)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 150906
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Reply from justin
Apr.07.2013
11:49AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line born and re-born are very small labels to put on the enormity of existence

they are perspectives, created by a small human being thought, they are the flea seeing the ocean in the cup,
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.07.2013
12:15PM EDT 
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Perhaps ' birth" or death is just a tiny part in the process but is never same as what human understood . Perhaps in Buddhism , energy transformed from one form to another as the process leading to emptiness and we are all nothingness therefore death or birth is never part of the emptiness , not part of ourselves either but is part of the process of other being - the body .

The body is never belong to us , never connected to us and it is same and equal as we in their own process into emptiness .........we seems " connected" to them due to our knowledge and human culture but in the concept of Buddhism , death / birth is part of a natural process experienced by other being .....we dies / birth each moment as our emotions changes , so when we change our emotions we actually dead and born with another new self each moment in our lives .................our lives is not depend on the body that experience decay but is our emotions / our desire etc that we known it as ourselves .......

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.07.2013
12:43PM EDT 
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Perhaps in the concept of Buddhism all - regardless human , animal , plant . micro-orgsm , rock , water , pen , computer etc is emptiness as each are in their own process leading towards emptiness back into nothingness ............all beings are existance and regardless living or non-living will under-going a natural process changing form / shape / transformed which human had defined it as " birth" or death .......in Buddhism all being are emptiness , human body or the dirt are all emptiness but the pollutant energy that causes their existance will experience " death" / "birth" , changing shape etc as part of their natural process into emptiness .......we by knowledge known as human WITH body but in Buddhism , we are emptiness and our polluted energy is all our emotions / desire etc that causes our existance ...our " body" NEVER connected or related to us at all therefore death/ birth is part of our body Buddhism process not ours ........but still all happening is teaching us to discover ourselves .....

We " birth" and dies each moment as our emotions changes ..........so death / birth as what we learned from our sociaty is never the same understanding as Buddhism concept ....We are emptiness and ourselves is what cause our existance ....."our" body is also emptiness and its nature cause it existance ...both is never related .

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from cinchona
Apr.08.2013
02:34PM EDT 
vertical line The emptiness is not empty but full of potential.

The mind is imminent they say.

for a detailed description of an instant check out 'Twelve Nidanas'.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.08.2013
07:08PM EDT 
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Dear Cinchona , you said I quote "The emptiness is not empty but full of potential.
The mind is imminent they say.for a detailed description of an instant check out 'Twelve Nidanas'." un-quote

Please explain further in more detail base on your understanding , your reason to accept such realization ......

In my current understanding , Buddhism is a process back into nothingness but still emptiness could also be un-stable condition before nothingness .....emptiness could be polluted back into existance as perhaps happens before........but I cant find any reason to aware that in emptiness is " full of potential" but rather easy to aware that in emptiness is still un-stable condition could be polluted by external energy cause existance ............emptiness is a condition before nothingness , nothing is perhaps a stable condition .

Thks

 CSEe

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Reply from cinchona
Apr.08.2013
09:51PM EDT 
vertical line emptiness is like a rock in your conciousness shift it with your mind.

a cup loses water at the same time it is filled with air.
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Reply from leoj99
Apr.09.2013
01:08AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "That story is an aid to understanding the three marks of existence "
.........

So what are the three marks of existence? Why is it three. If one is lacking what is it?...lol
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.09.2013
01:39AM EDT 
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Quote: "emptiness is like a rock in your conciousness shift it with your mind.

a cup loses water at the same time it is filled with air.
"
.........

Perhaps if I refer to my current knowledge , current mind I have reason to agree with you ...but perhaps on other hand if one still have the knowledge of " the air" understanding the " condition of the air" , accepting the existance of the air ...perhaps that is still not empty , still replace by another desire / emption .

So if you see a cup fill with water , you know that is water , you believe / have faith of the water being fill up the cup ......and when you " empty the cup" if you still attached to your desire to know , to find reason to furfill your knowledge , you will create another faith of believing the cup fill with air ...the fact is you just changing your knowledge but still attached to it .....

Buddhism is a PROCESS leading to emptiness  NOT by knowledge , NOT by faith , NOT by desire but by a process of realization & acceptance ........so let me explain my version of Buddhism with the following example :-

If you see a cup fill with water , in Buddhism you will accept that the water and the cup is SAME and EQUAL that both existance is never connected that the water and the cup is never related ............so when the water flow out from the cup , still both is never related as both are of same and equal process leading to emptiness .......and you learned from both being from their nature ,their existance , thier happening by your awareness .........you will never commit to your knowledge but realize it beyond knowledge , you will realize both nature without being attached to it and such realization will never need any explaination to feed your desire but will contribute / be a factor of your realization .....

I hope you could share your thought .

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from cinchona
Apr.09.2013
06:35AM EDT 
vertical line what's the sound of one hand claping?
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Reply from cinchona
Apr.09.2013
06:38AM EDT 
vertical line A great weight this emptiness has upon you.
Drop it and free yourself.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.09.2013
09:49AM EDT 
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Quote: "what's the sound of one hand claping?"
If you use your knowledge to furfill your desire to know the sound of one hand claping perhaps one could come up with many answer with many reason to support their answer ..............Buddhism in my current view , is not to seek answer to furfill the desire to know or to seek something that we thought we lost ...but is to aware , to realize leading to acceptance and freedom of it ...........so what is the sound of one hand claping ? to me in Buddhism is to learn your action of claping , see you in claping one hand and learn ....learn about your desire on claping one hand , your emotion while claping , your action / re-action while claping , before and after claping and see myself in yourself ...learn without any expectation of the your result on claping one hand , without any intention to judge your action ...just learn ......your action regardless how or what is a great source for me to discover myself .........

Thats is my current understanding on Buddhism and is always ready to change .

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.09.2013
10:00AM EDT 
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Dear cinchona , you said ": "A great weight this emptiness has upon you.
Drop it and free yourself.
"" un-quote

Sorry in advance .......I so far do not feel the weight because I never imagine what should be emptiness or even belief with my understanding ...............perhaps you have feel it for me by living in my life .........In Buddhism , I currently learned , all being regardless what is their action is teaching me to discover myself but no one including Siddharta himself could have reason to teach others ...therefore I am happy learning , discovering as myself decreases as I progress ...........so if you not living in others life , awake to aware Buddhism perhaps you will be free of feeling such burden for me ........again sorry in advance .

There was a monk told me the story of a monk pouring tea to a student cup trying to teach the student that the student mind already full cannot be filled anymore ....I was shocked . In my current view ,the teacher should free himself to learn from the student in same manner the student eager to learn from the teacher ....in the story the teacher mind is already full infact he should change himself by learning from the student .

In my current understanding , in Buddhism Osama action is SAME and EQUAL as Dalai Lama words as Osama could learn from Dalai Lama in same manner Dalai Lama could learn from Osama ...both are teachers to me .

Thks

CSEe


.........

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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.09.2013
02:13PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "That story is an aid to understanding the three marks of existence "
.........

So what are the three marks of existence? Why is it three. If one is lacking what is it?...lol
"
.........

The Buddha taught that everything in the physical world, including mental activity and psychological experience, is marked with three characteristics -- impermanence, suffering and egolessness. Thorough examination and awareness of these marks helps us abandon the grasping and clinging that bind us.

That was easily found on the internet. Why ask me when there is a wealth of information out there for you??
You don't need me to teach you the basics of Buddhism.
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Reply from cinchona
Apr.09.2013
08:55PM EDT 
vertical line CSEe, explain to us the purpose of your life using this philosophy.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.09.2013
09:33PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Dear Cinchona , you said ,Quote: "CSEe, explain to us the purpose of your life using this philosophy." Un-quote

First of all , I do not " use" this philosophy but this is my current understanding and part of my reason here is to challenge it for better understanding even to move away from it ............in my current understanding , Buddhism in regards to my existance is a process that I will discover , learn , experience , understand all my emotions , desire , fear , greed , anger ,will , love , compassion etc which all these is " myself" leading to acceptance of it , acceptance of ME being nothingness and free me from myself . So in this understanding , my existance is caused by my will to exist or my emotions..... in short my existance is caused by my self ........and I will continue to exist in life or after life , in death or after death as long as I still attached to my self ...my "life" is perhaps a tiny " time frame" part of my existance as " human" in a lengthy process releasing the myself-polluted energy  towards emptiness . So " my life" is part of such journey and there is no purpose of "life" or " death" as all is part of a process known to me as Buddhism ...........so on the other hand if just to fit in human desire to furfill own curiousity to know ...perhaps you could say that the purpose of life being part of Buddhism is to discover ownself and eventually freedom of all emotions not by desire or wish but by realization and naturally acceptance .......and freedom from it .

Thks CSEe

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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.09.2013
10:17PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Does your current understanding bring you what you seek?
An end to life after life??
What you believe you are ... you are not
It will not continue into your next life or after life
What you are ... you have not brought forth and so you live in your illusions.

You are told by others that you must practice.
You say that in your current understanding that you do not need to
You say that you don't hang onto your current understanding and wish to challenge it
But, your current understanding has not changed despite being thrown out of eight other websites.
You cling to what you believe to be true ... that  is understandable
What Is not understandable is why you have been standing still and not moving forward.
Why don't you do as Buddha asked ... go see the truth for yourself.
Don't believe in others words but verify for yourself the very essence of life
See into your own Buddha nature. So i you need to do Zazen for a little while to see if you can find the truth then why not do it????

Well, Yes, I do know that you have an answer to everything.
It starts off with, "In my current understanding, Buddhism is a process .... "
Hahahahaha ..... I see that you are still in your process .... hahahaha
My best wishes for you. May your process find the success you so deserve ....
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.09.2013
11:13PM EDT 
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Dear Avisitor , you said  "Does your current understanding bring you what you seek?" un-quote

Dear Avisitor , frankly I do not concern how you feel of me but to me you are a great teacher and I really happy you still have interest to discuss with me ...please do continue giving your comment ........

my current understanding is resulted from what I have learned , discovered , experienced , understood from all including you ...is not something I wish to find , or something I planned to seek , or resultd from my imagination .......so in short I do not " seek " what to find but rather found myself ............

You said quote "
An end to life after life??
What you believe you are ... you are not
It will not continue into your next life or after life
What you are ... you have not brought forth and so you live in your illusions." un-quote

Interesting , do you care to debate further explaining ?

Dear Avisitor , you said " You are told by others that you must practice.
You say that in your current understanding that you do not need to
You say that you don't hang onto your current understanding and wish to challenge it
But, your current understanding has not changed despite being thrown out of eight other websites.
You cling to what you believe to be true ... that  is understandable
What Is not understandable is why you have been standing still and not moving forward.
Why don't you do as Buddha asked ... go see the truth for yourself.
Don't believe in others words but verify for yourself the very essence of life
See into your own Buddha nature. So i you need to do Zazen for a little while to see if you can find the truth then why not do it????Un-quote

If you read your writing , you will see much of yourself in what you claim to be me ...that is not me but you . Indeed I am changing each moment in my life and without being notice it ............perhaps if you focus on certain issue , if you notice I still have not change , that is not because I refuse to change but because I have not realized any new awareness ....that is why I hope to debate ........

Why so many people have intention to teach me ? I will learn anyway so you do not have to creates emotion just to teach me .....many feel dissapointed even angry if they feel they fail to teach me ...the fact is that I have learned and each moment is changing without noticed even by me . ...so dear sir , dont worry of me lets focus on topic and debate ...........

 
Dear Avisitor , you said Well, Yes, I do know that you have an answer to everything.
It starts off with, "In my current understanding, Buddhism is a process .... "
Hahahahaha ..... I see that you are still in your process .... hahahaha
My best wishes for you. May your process find the success you so deserve ....
"Un-quote

In my current understanding all are still in the process - Buddhism including Siddharta and Buddhism is beyond answering question or questing answer ...Buddhism is learn from question , the emotion on question , the desire while answering and the reason of the answer............so dear sir , sorry in avance I do not have the answer , just learning from the answer or question......as Buddhism is ony involve learning never teacher . If you are a teacher you perhaps think you have all the answer , but I am never a teacher regards to Buddhism ..so I just learnig .......

Thks

CSEe  
.........

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Reply from cinchona
Apr.10.2013
04:47AM EDT 
vertical line CSEe, you say we learn from good and bad as equal,
what is it we learn?
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.10.2013
05:53AM EDT 
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Dear cinchona , you said " Quote: "CSEe, you say we learn from good and bad as equal,
what is it we learn?
"Un-quote

Dear Cinchona , remember when you ask me what sound if clap one hand ? In my current understanding of Buddhism , is not to expect what kind of sound , or to imagine the sound but to learn from the whole process of clapping ...........so if you already base on your knowledge , the differences of " good and bad" will be more and more clear , more and more apparent ...and you will be more and more faith on what is good and what should be bad .......and as you proceed in this path which knowledge is used as basis , you will became the knowledge itself ...you will never find you but always in circle of questing / answering to gain more knowledge .

Being awake of Buddhism , in my current understanding will reduce the journey , reduce the suffering resulted from own confusion and less suffering . Perhaps if you could come out from the box , seeing Buddhism beyond knowledge ...there is all the answer and question ...you will see beyond good and bad .....you will perhaps learn all happening is in a process of which beyond all our knowledge , a process that have no differences , no good or bad , no true or false and no right or wrong as all beings , all happening , all existance is in own process , releasing its polluted energy causing their existance towards emptiness ......you will learn YOU and YOURSELF ....because nothing is out there except you and yourself........all your suffering , joy , existance is cause my yourself  ........Buddhism in short is all about discovering yourself and you NOT others ......

Thks

CSEe 

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Reply from cinchona
Apr.10.2013
05:57AM EDT 
vertical line is that so?
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Reply from cinchona
Apr.10.2013
06:16AM EDT 
vertical line why stop there?
there is plenty more nothing.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.10.2013
06:49AM EDT 
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Quote: "why stop there?
there is plenty more nothing.
"
.........

Never stop ...Buddhism is a process that never stopped ...........whether there is "plenty more nothing" or not ............ is not my concern .................just learning and awake to aware ...

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from cinchona
Apr.10.2013
07:49AM EDT 
vertical line and aware to act.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.10.2013
08:49AM EDT 
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Quote: "and aware to act."

That will be base on knowledge , human culture but in Buddhism , aware to realize , realize to accept , accept to further aware ...is a process till no emotions to aware .........or will to exist ....

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from cinchona
Apr.10.2013
10:18AM EDT 
vertical line Right thought, brings Right action, brings Right awareness
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.10.2013
10:54AM EDT 
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Quote: "Right thought, brings Right action, brings Right awareness
"
.........

Yes in human culture based on knowledge as a referral that is so true ..............but in my current understanding of Buddhism , if you confined your awareness based on your desire on what is right or what should be wrong .....you will always be human , progressing to be a better human by knowledge and will be the best of human as your wish ...you will always be you with yourself , you perhaps will always had yourselves in you and will experience a much-much more longer / more suffering journey into emptiness .

" right" or " wrong" in Buddhism perhaps is not from desire , not from knowledge or practice but from realization ..........so if you realized yourselves / accepting yourselves awake to aware Buddhism , you will never resist Buddhism and just flow with it into emptiness ,.....but in my current understanding if you used your knowledge as the basis of your awareness , you will creates more knowledge , increased more emotions and as yourself increases , your resistance to Buddhism will also increased and you will experience more suffering resulted from your increased attachement on yourself............... 

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.10.2013
08:39PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Right thought, brings Right action, brings Right awareness
"
.........

Yes in human culture based on knowledge as a referral that is so true ..............but in my current understanding of Buddhism , if you confined your awareness based on your desire on what is right or what should be wrong .....you will always be human , progressing to be a better human by knowledge and will be the best of human as your wish ...you will always be you with yourself , you perhaps will always had yourselves in you and will experience a much-much more longer / more suffering journey into emptiness .

Is this not what you are presently doing?? You have based your awareness on your desire to learn Buddhism?? And so, you will always be human ..... hahahahaha



" right" or " wrong" in Buddhism perhaps is not from desire , not from knowledge or practice but from realization ..........so if you realized yourselves / accepting yourselves awake to aware Buddhism , you will never resist Buddhism and just flow with it into emptiness ,.....but in my current understanding if you used your knowledge as the basis of your awareness , you will creates more knowledge , increased more emotions and as yourself increases , your resistance to Buddhism will also increased and you will experience more suffering resulted from your increased attachement on yourself............... 

Thks

CSEe


Realization?? ... Really?? And what makes yor realization different from ordinary realization which keeps you human???  If you do not examine what you have presented then you are no better off than when you started this path of Buddhism. Excuse me, for you, "this process known as Buddhism to you ... in your current understanding .... hahahahaha



"
.........
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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.10.2013
08:58PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Interesting , do you care to debate further explaining ?

Zen Buddhism is not a debate.
But, you refuse to understand this.

.......

hahahaha
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.10.2013
09:41PM EDT 
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Quote: "Interesting , do you care to debate further explaining ?

Zen Buddhism is not a debate.
But, you refuse to understand this.

.......

hahahaha
"
.........

Perharp " Zen Buddhism" by your understanding is not a debate ...but I am hoping to debate with you , Avisitor ..........your understanding of Buddhism .You are human same as me and why cant we talk , discuss Buddhism like we could discuss sport / sex / hobby ?.......why you have to refer to your " faith" to act ? ..........................I never " refuse to understand" but I really cant find reason why you avoiding debate with me......for me we are in internet and debate perhaps is the best way to learn same as in classroom , the more you ask , the more you know .........lets debate shall we ...

Thks

CSEe.

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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.10.2013
10:32PM EDT 
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DearAvisitor , you said "Realization?? ... Really?? And what makes yor realization different from ordinary realization which keeps you human???  If you do not examine what you have presented then you are no better off than when you started this path of Buddhism. Excuse me, for you, "this process known as Buddhism to you ... in your current understanding .... hahahahaha
" un-quote

Do you have two different realization ? How ? ...........in Buddhism realization is you realize your own emotions / desire / ego/love/compassion/ fear / greed etc not your knowledge on other being ......so is knowing your ownself so how could you have 2 difference realization if not lieing to your ownself or covering your own shortcoming ?........Yes all happening is investigated / examine but BEFORE you could do it you MUST be AWAKE to aware and accept all being is of SAME and EQUAL ..that even a dirt is your master . If you only see Dalai Lama is your master and the killer is your "student" you will always be you , the one you choose to be and will be the one you wish to be ............so Buddhism is beyond human knowledge / beyond human culture , if you always choose what to believe , you will always carry yourself in you . .......

There is no realization to be human except CONFUSION / EGO / EMOTIONS/ GREED that I had and is suffering for me to have it ...Buddhism is a process that will free me from myself . I am still very far from accepting " myself" and if I have accept it , there will be no special emotion ....I will have same emotion for a virus with my daughter , have same emotion for all...apparently now I cant because I still full of pollutant ...therefore I am here to learn and progress into greater realization / acceptance .

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from cinchona
Apr.11.2013
03:38AM EDT 
vertical line in zen nothing hides,
it is only when one looks for zen that it appears hidden.
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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.11.2013
08:06PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line It is not realization.
It is experiencing the truth of your very nature.

When we practice sitting as the Buddha sat, we sit in perfection as the Buddha sat
We experience our true nature.

Bows and walks away
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 150975
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.11.2013
10:35PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Dear Avisitor , sorry in advance I do not have any intention to be confrontational against  you but just hope to challange my own by learning from yours .

You said " It is not realization.
It is experiencing the truth of your very nature" Un-quote

What is " the truth" ? and what cause you to have reason to believe your nature ? You see my friend , in my current understanding what ever you might experience , might feel , might discover is your own process of your self realization and is part of your learning process to discover yourself and you ......but whatever you might experience or found is just a tiny part of yourself realization as you still very much have desire , emotions that prove that you still very much attached to yourself ..........so if you think even have faith that you by your experience / discovery is the truth or is your true nature ...you are actually stopped progressing by trying to resisting your Buddhism , trying to against the natural process .......why ? Because you stopped and have faith in your belief . When you stopped .....believing that you had found the truth or your true nature , you are actually creates more emotions / more self and this is taking longer journey / more suffering journey into nothingness ............In my current understanding , the moment we " belief" , we have created emotions that is causing us taking longer journey in to emptiness ........because ourselves increased and that is like " swimming against the current" still you are flowing into the sea because you still in the river ....if you " swimming against the current , you are suffering ......but by being awake if you flow with the current , you will be less suffering ..........

Dear Avisitor , you said "When we practice sitting as the Buddha sat, we sit in perfection as the Buddha sat
We experience our true nature.Bows and walks away" un-quote

Dear Avisitor , tell me before you sit , you had already had " belief" how is " Buddha" sit 2500 years ago , you already had faith what to find .......and that is creating more emotions - you had increased yourself ...but Buddhism concept is decreasing the self ...you indeed " swimming against the current" ......and if you "found "something.....you will creates more " faith" , more self and this will lead to more suffering .............in my current understanding in Buddhism , each moment of our journey , we free from attachment on our knowledge / emotions and accepting all being is SAME and EQUAL ...that even a dirt is our master only at that level of acceptance we could realize ourselves and progress ...............I really hope to debate with you for my learning lesson ....

Thks CSEe
 

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Reply from leoj99
Apr.12.2013
12:21AM EDT 
vertical line Wondering what you are talking or arguing about that needs too much talks... Is it important?...lol.. 
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Reply from leoj99
Apr.12.2013
04:10AM EDT 
vertical line Ah you are arguing on what is the truth..lol
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Reply from cinchona
Apr.12.2013
04:25AM EDT 
vertical line THE NIGHT
SPILLING STARS
INTO THE BAY.

once again.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.12.2013
05:22AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Quote: "THE NIGHT
SPILLING STARS
INTO THE BAY.

once again.
"
.........

Dear cinchona  , if possible please explain .......

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from cinchona
Apr.12.2013
06:20AM EDT 
vertical line that, my friend, is where all the ideas and concepts of the world go.
into the bay.

"Quiessence" come to know it as your best friend.


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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.12.2013
09:16AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Quote: "that, my friend, is where all the ideas and concepts of the world go.
into the bay.

"Quiessence" come to know it as your best friend.


"

sorry my friend , I still do not have any clue what you meant .........

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Reply from cinchona
Apr.12.2013
10:22AM EDT 
vertical line niether do i really.

it's just a beautiful picture for your meditation
as is life.

you are not to look at the words as "form" so much but the "energy".
one way which might suit you is, imagine the night as the nothingingness and the stars as being all of human activity, knowledge or thought shining down on to the "bay" which is like our collective conciousness existing in everything as equal, by which it is reflected back out into the night, then it is here we as the "stars" experience it again, and once again shining our thoughts and ideas back on to the "bay" of the collective conciousness and repeating the process over and over every instant.
that's just one way, as you meditate on it you will notice your own understanding come up with many different ideas on it.

Quiessence is chi study it for yourself.

hope this helps

regards.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.12.2013
10:59AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Quote: "niether do i really.

it's just a beautiful picture for your meditation
as is life.

you are not to look at the words as "form" so much but the "energy".
one way which might suit you is, imagine the night as the nothingingness and the stars as being all of human activity, knowledge or thought shining down on to the "bay" which is like our collective conciousness existing in everything as equal, by which it is reflected back out into the night, then it is here we as the "stars" experience it again, and once again shining our thoughts and ideas back on to the "bay" of the collective conciousness and repeating the process over and over every instant.
that's just one way, as you meditate on it you will notice your own understanding come up with many different ideas on it.

Quiessence is chi study it for yourself.

hope this helps

regards.
"

I cant say I understand you but perhaps is just like a mirror looking back on yourself......without any expectation , we learnt . I sometimes seeing all thing without any " different" and with that I feel that I am "living"in every moment ..........but still I have special emotions ........thats is my suffering and part of the reason I am here learning from you .

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.12.2013
12:16PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line As some would say, stop all your thinking .... hahahaha
When you continue to want to understand with this mind, you lose what it is you seek.
So, even with the intent to stop thinking, you don't cross the wide river in a single step.
You slip and fall in the puddle beneath your feet.


Believing Buddhism is a natural process .... makes it so
Thus, this process will never end and will continue forever
No end and no way out. The cycle of life and death and rebirth continue forever.


You know the way
You know the path
I will meet you there .... hahahaha
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Reply from cinchona
Apr.12.2013
09:35PM EDT 
vertical line a mirror of infinite directions and instantaneous reflections.
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Reply from cinchona
Apr.12.2013
09:48PM EDT 
vertical line i personally choose not to view my emotions as suffering, but as vital tools for your own enlightenment, they are to be reasoned with, sure if your suffering with your emotions than they become suffering, but if you can learn from them then they are very useful tools.


ALL THAT YOU ARE IS A RESULT OF WHAT YOU HAVE THOUGHT
THE MIND IS EVERYTHING
WHAT YOU THINK YOU BECOME

Buddha.
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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.12.2013
10:25PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "a mirror of infinite directions and instantaneous reflections.
"
.........

When you find emptiness, is there a mirror to reflect upon??

ALL THAT YOU ARE ...  IS A RESULT OF WHAT YOU HAVE THOUGHT
THE MIND IS EVERYTHING
WHAT YOU THINK ... YOU BECOME



Now, is there a mirror???

Hahahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 150996
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Reply from cinchona
Apr.12.2013
10:32PM EDT 
vertical line Can one truly come to understand that which is infinite?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 150998
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Reply from cinchona
Apr.13.2013
04:01AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "niether do i really.

it's just a beautiful picture for your meditation
as is life.

you are not to look at the words as "form" so much but the "energy".
one way which might suit you is, imagine the night as the nothingingness and the stars as being all of human activity, knowledge or thought shining down on to the "bay" which is like our collective conciousness existing in everything as equal, by which it is reflected back out into the night, then it is here we as the "stars" experience it again, and once again shining our thoughts and ideas back on to the "bay" of the collective conciousness and repeating the process over and over every instant.
that's just one way, as you meditate on it you will notice your own understanding come up with many different ideas on it.

Quiessence is chi study it for yourself.

hope this helps

regards.
"


I cant say I understand you but perhaps is just like a mirror looking back on yourself......without any expectation , we learnt . I sometimes seeing all thing without any " different" and with that I feel that I am "living"in every moment ..........but still I have special emotions ........thats is my suffering and part of the reason I am here learning from you .


Thks


CSEe

"
.........

The other thing that might be worth taking note of is the fact that no matter what thoughts or opinions shine down on to the bay, the bay of conciousness it does not bother or fuss it simply shines back a perfect reflection of "what is" back to the stars.

Now, what is????


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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.13.2013
07:08AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "niether do i really.

it's just a beautiful picture for your meditation
as is life.

you are not to look at the words as "form" so much but the "energy".
one way which might suit you is, imagine the night as the nothingingness and the stars as being all of human activity, knowledge or thought shining down on to the "bay" which is like our collective conciousness existing in everything as equal, by which it is reflected back out into the night, then it is here we as the "stars" experience it again, and once again shining our thoughts and ideas back on to the "bay" of the collective conciousness and repeating the process over and over every instant.
that's just one way, as you meditate on it you will notice your own understanding come up with many different ideas on it.

Quiessence is chi study it for yourself.

hope this helps

regards.
"


I cant say I understand you but perhaps is just like a mirror looking back on yourself......without any expectation , we learnt . I sometimes seeing all thing without any " different" and with that I feel that I am "living"in every moment ..........but still I have special emotions ........thats is my suffering and part of the reason I am here learning from you .


Thks


CSEe

"
.........

The other thing that might be worth taking note of is the fact that no matter what thoughts or opinions shine down on to the bay, the bay of conciousness it does not bother or fuss it simply shines back a perfect reflection of "what is" back to the stars.

Now, what is????


"

"
.........

The other thing that might be worth taking note of is the fact that no matter what thoughts or opinions shine down on to the bay, the bay of conciousness it does not bother or fuss it simply shines back a perfect reflection of "what is" back to the stars.

Now, what is????


"

Perhaps thats can be consider as being ego , to me Buddhism is a process of continue discovering ownselves so what so ever thought is a great lesson .......to learn and progress with it .....but this does not mean to attach with it but realization will take place and include all happening / lesson without noticing it . 

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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.13.2013
07:23AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Quote: "As some would say, stop all your thinking .... hahahaha
When you continue to want to understand with this mind, you lose what it is you seek.
So, even with the intent to stop thinking, you don't cross the wide river in a single step.
You slip and fall in the puddle beneath your feet.


Believing Buddhism is a natural process .... makes it so
Thus, this process will never end and will continue forever
No end and no way out. The cycle of life and death and rebirth continue forever.


You know the way
You know the path
I will meet you there .... hahahaha
"

I do not have " believe' of anything even the understanding on Buddhism concept ...just awake to aware ....if base on my current understanding of Buddhism , I will not ' meet you ' there as we are " one" the emptiness / nothingness ........perhaps we could meet on the way there but not the final destination .

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.13.2013
07:33AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Quote: "i personally choose not to view my emotions as suffering, but as vital tools for your own enlightenment, they are to be reasoned with, sure if your suffering with your emotions than they become suffering, but if you can learn from them then they are very useful tools.


ALL THAT YOU ARE IS A RESULT OF WHAT YOU HAVE THOUGHT
THE MIND IS EVERYTHING
WHAT YOU THINK YOU BECOME

Buddha.
"
.........

Perhaps I have different view currently ...........All that YOURSELF is a result of what youself have thought , YOU are nothingness .........

The mind is reflection of YOURSELF of all your emotions / desire etc and is everything in HUMAN world and yes is what yourself made of ........but Buddhism is a process leading to decrease of YOURSELF , decrease in all emotions so as you progress NOT MATTER how you will progress naturally into emptiness . Just like if you are in aeroplane flying from USA to AUSTRALIA .....so on the plan you are free to move forward or backward still no matter what is your movement you are still on the way to Australia . Same as Buddhism , no matter what is your action still that will part of your learning lesson , you still in Buddhism leading to emptiness back into nothingness NOT by your choice but is natural .

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.13.2013
08:37AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I do not have " believe' of anything even the understanding on Buddhism concept ...just awake to aware ....if base on my current understanding of Buddhism , I will not ' meet you ' there as we are " one" the emptiness / nothingness ........perhaps we could meet on the way there but not the final destination .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

So you wish to deny what you believe???
Astounding the way you move your understanding to fit whatever the situation ... hahahaha

Who said anything about the final destination??
In your current understanding of Buddhism, you still do not wish to understand others but to debate useless words and make yourself think you know what Buddhism really is.
Buddhism is the arrow that points the way.
Stop looking at Buddhism and look for yourself
See the target.
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Reply from justin
Apr.13.2013
09:19AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line CSEe what you are talking about it theraveda buddhism, In mahayana Zen, you will not slowly, though a process of self investigation reach an understanding.

Zen is the instant realisation method, you know nothing until you do know.

with a flash of understanding all at once you know, until then one must simply trust and practice with all intent.

what you are talking of is the older type practiced in Thailand and ceylon etc.

read the diamond sutra it will explain better then i, (if you want to understand Zen).

(or not understand until you do)
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.13.2013
09:28AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "I do not have " believe' of anything even the understanding on Buddhism concept ...just awake to aware ....if base on my current understanding of Buddhism , I will not ' meet you ' there as we are " one" the emptiness / nothingness ........perhaps we could meet on the way there but not the final destination .

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

Dear Avisitor , you said " So you wish to deny what you believe???
Astounding the way you move your understanding to fit whatever the situation ... hahahaha" un-quote

"
.........

Dear Avisitor , you said " So you wish to deny what you believe???
Astounding the way you move your understanding to fit whatever the situation ... hahahaha" un-quote

I guess you choose not to understand but prefer to be mis-understood . What I mean was , all my understanding is CURRENT not attached to it ......or to force to agree with what I had said ............I always ready to change .

Dear Avisitor , you said , I quote " Who said anything about the final destination??
In your current understanding of Buddhism, you still do not wish to understand others but to debate useless words and make yourself think you know what Buddhism really is.
Buddhism is the arrow that points the way.
Stop looking at Buddhism and look for yourself
See the target." un-quote

Yes , that was myself perhaps will be myself later ......what you wish to know my understanding NOW ? Do you wish me to explain what is my current understanding ? Yes , I currently of the understanding that nothingness is final destination for all being .......I still do not found any reason to agree that Buddhism is arrow points the way ...but rather have reason to understand that Buddhism is the way not the signboard but the road ................Yes looking for yourself is Buddhism to me ......see what target ? To me currently , if you have target / have imagination or beliefs ........you will creates more ' self"......thats longer path .

Dear Avisitor , are you a lady or man ? Lets be friend and debate shall we .....

Thks

CSEe
"
.........

"
.........
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Reply from cinchona
Apr.13.2013
09:30AM EDT 
vertical line I do quite agree with you CSEe although i would word it in a seemingly more positive way than nothingness, thats my choice.

what i do fail to understand in your view is, what happens to the nothingness when it becomes nothingness? for is it too on its path back to something? this concept of an ending being nothing does not match the infinite life sutras.
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Reply from cinchona
Apr.13.2013
09:31AM EDT 
vertical line Every created thing is like
A dream, an illusion, a bubble,
A dewdrop, a flash of lightning.
View all created things like this.

The Diamond Sutra
translated from Chinese Version.

Even our own thoughts and concepts.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151015
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.13.2013
10:35AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Quote: "CSEe what you are talking about it theraveda buddhism, In mahayana Zen, you will not slowly, though a process of self investigation reach an understanding.

Zen is the instant realisation method, you know nothing until you do know.

with a flash of understanding all at once you know, until then one must simply trust and practice with all intent.

what you are talking of is the older type practiced in Thailand and ceylon etc.

read the diamond sutra it will explain better then i, (if you want to understand Zen).

(or not understand until you do)
"
.........

Thanks for the imput .......I do not follow any tradition , with human I just hope to debate ................Thks

CSEe

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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.13.2013
10:48AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Quote: "I do quite agree with you CSEe although i would word it in a seemingly more positive way than nothingness, thats my choice.

what i do fail to understand in your view is, what happens to the nothingness when it becomes nothingness? for is it too on its path back to something? this concept of an ending being nothing does not match the infinite life sutras.
"
.........

That is why i wish to debate because I could explore areas that I never been..........to me currently ,emptiness is subject to change into existance but perhaps not nothingness ........in Buddhism concept as what I currently understand , the existance of human as any being will end into emptiness ....so as I progress in many-many circle of life and death ...naturally I will decreased all my emotions but this never mean that in my next life my emotion will surely decreased , it can also increase in my path into emptiness ......just like my example on aeroplane , so in line with this concept , in emptiness it can be back into existance as yet to be settled in nothingness ......but still all being will end up in nothingness regardless how long it might takes .....thats my current understanding .

Please share yours .

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from leoj99
Apr.13.2013
02:28PM EDT 
vertical line Just forget all the concepts...lol.. just stop thinking...
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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.14.2013
09:51AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Dear Avisitor , are you a lady or man ? Lets be friend and debate shall we .....

Thks

CSEe
"
.........

In my current understand of the process of Buddhism, I progress and expel all pollutants and no longer exist as a lady or man .... hahahahaha

Again, Buddhism is not about debate.

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Reply from leoj99
Apr.14.2013
06:29PM EDT 
vertical line Aha,, are you implying something ... else..lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151037
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.14.2013
07:57PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Dear Avisitor , are you a lady or man ? Lets be friend and debate shall we .....

Thks

CSEe
"
.........

In my current understand of the process of Buddhism, I progress and expel all pollutants and no longer exist as a lady or man .... hahahahaha

Again, Buddhism is not about debate.

"
.........

"
.........

Sorry forget about the question , I am just trying to be friendly with you..........you have a strong understanding of Buddhism and very firm in your faith ......that show that you must have your own reason but if you have why cant you share with me ? Debate is part of human way of learning and to me is the best in internet ...........to me my version of debate is you challenge my answer and I challenge yours so with this as we progress we will learn from each other without noticing it ........and this will push us in greater understanding ........I am not asking you to follow my view but just wish to learn from you . Many " master" like you on internet just trying to be " teacher" and teach , they not allow people like me to challenge their faith or their reason for having such faith .......they just want me to agree with them ...........Dear Avisitor , I will follow any faith including become a monk if I found my realization for the reason ........so I really hope I could find someone whom claim to be " master" to debate ........so far I had sent email / fax / PM to many well known master / abbot etc to debate with me and I had debated with a few of them but they seems " angry" i challenge his reason and break away with me after I have all my reason to challenge them.

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.15.2013
10:21PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line I am no teacher and no master.
Debate will not increase understanding of Buddhism.
It can only increase amount of stuff you learn.
Understanding comes from doing and experiencing the truth for yourself.

If you want to learn more then I suggest you read more about Buddhism
Or even talk with people in a Buddhism temple or monastery.
Ask them your questions.

Even Buddha needed to sit and practice to finally awaken
How could I think to do less ... hahahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151068
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.16.2013
12:46AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Quote: "I am no teacher and no master.
Debate will not increase understanding of Buddhism.
It can only increase amount of stuff you learn.
Understanding comes from doing and experiencing the truth for yourself.

If you want to learn more then I suggest you read more about Buddhism
Or even talk with people in a Buddhism temple or monastery.
Ask them your questions.

Even Buddha needed to sit and practice to finally awaken
How could I think to do less ... hahahaha
"
.........

You said " debate will not increase undrstanding of Buddhisn and increase amount of stuff to learn ? " and in the same time advising me to read ? and talk to people ?

Dear Avisitor ,tell me whats the different ? Why dont we focus on this topic and debate ...why do you think we need to sit down and practice in order to learn Buddhism ? .............to me all being whether living or non-living is in Buddhism and by being awake , we could experience less suffering along the journey ......

Dear Avisitor , why cant you stay and continue focusing on topic and debate with me .....Thks

CSEe

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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.16.2013
12:34PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Again you mis-understand.
I said if you want to learn more then you can read or talk to monks or whatever.
I do not debate .
I do not teach
I am no ones master

Do what it is you wish to  .... hahahaha
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.16.2013
07:11PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Quote: "Again you mis-understand.
I said if you want to learn more then you can read or talk to monks or whatever.
I do not debate .
I do not teach
I am no ones master

Do what it is you wish to  .... hahahaha
"
.........

I understand and now you makes me more understand yourself ............hope you could joint in and continue give your thought to me .

Thks

CSEe

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