history principles practice stories, books, media discussion forum organizations resources
zenguide.com logo
 
Wednesday Dec 17 2014 06:06PM ET
º login º register º email º guestbook º printer friendly
grey dot
  The Buddha once taught the Bhikkhus about the All:

"I will teach you the All. Listen closely. What is the All? It is eye and visible object,
ear and sound, nose and scent, tongue and taste, body and feelings, mind and ideas.
... continue...

z
.
e
.
n
menu left history menu spacer principles menu spacer practice menu spacer zen media menu spacer discussion forum menu spacer organization directory menu spacer resources  
login
  DISCUSSION FORUM
» topic list   » start a new topic   » my tracked topics   » view topic
grey dot

horizontal line
→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: THE TREE
vertical line Posted on Apr.13.2013 @ 07:54AM EDT by justin

A monk asked Joshu, "What did Daruma come to China for?"  Joshu answered, "The oak tree in the (temple) front garden."
Case 37, Mumonkan,
Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email justin
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Apr.13.2013
07:56AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line why did..............it just did !

children know this easily
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151005
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Apr.13.2013
08:03AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line any further answer i create in my mind, and takes me far from an answer.

and just confuse me more,

illusion compounded endlessly,

no need to create answers, this is ego fighting,

answers are there it is obvious once we stop creating them.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151006
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Apr.13.2013
08:32AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Wou know from where Joshu speaks then you know the answer .... ;-)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151009
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from cinchona
Apr.13.2013
10:25AM EDT 
vertical line yes it's true, we just need to stop the conflict in our minds and direct our thoughts like a tree reaching for the sun, grow towards love and compassion, and children are the best teachers.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151019
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Apr.13.2013
10:36AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line Why not "at the door" instead of "the front garden"?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151021
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Apr.13.2013
02:30PM EDT 
vertical line Just to stop such stupid questions... Joshu said: Oak tree in the garden... it says stop thinking...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151024
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Apr.15.2013
02:24AM EDT 
vertical line So Daruma went to China for the Oak Tree in the Garden.

So what can you talk about it...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151042
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Apr.15.2013
02:57AM EDT 
vertical line You cannot talk about it but actually that is a very deep understanding if you get it.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151043
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Apr.15.2013
04:18AM EDT 
vertical line Note that that is Case 37 on the Momunkan.. the Gateless Gate... collection of 48 koans... and 37 is high and one of the last to tackle by a zen student..

CASE 37. JOSHU'S OAK TREE IN THE GARDEN

A monk asked Joshu, "With what intention did Bodhidharma come to China?" Joshu answered, "The oak tree in the front garden."

Mumon's Comments:
If you grasp Joshu's answer precisely, there is no Shakyamuni Buddha before you and no Maitreya Buddha after you.

Words do not express fact,
Phrases do not reveal the delicate motion of mind.
He who accepts words is lost,
He who adheres to phrases is deluded.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151046
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Apr.15.2013
04:45AM EDT 
vertical line I told you... stop thinking...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151048
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Apr.16.2013
03:50AM EDT 
vertical line Is an Oak Tree in the Front Garden part of the teaching?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151076
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Apr.16.2013
04:04AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line yes
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151078
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Apr.18.2013
01:21AM EDT 
vertical line Ok lets talk...

So if Daruma went to China for the oak tree in the front garden how come? That oak tree in the garden must not have been a seed yet when Daruma went to China. How is that possible?

And Joshu, as a great Zen Master, must be telling the truth. He must not be lying.

So how can the problem be solved?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151105
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Apr.18.2013
01:26AM EDT 
vertical line I think this is a case wherein even if you read and research a thousand books you will not find the answer. Even if  you interview a million people including Zen Masters and ask what is the answer no one can tell. A Zen Master never tells answers. He never chew the food and spoon feed anyone...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151106
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Apr.18.2013
01:30AM EDT 
vertical line Now why are you meddling with koans in the first place...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151107
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Apr.18.2013
03:54AM EDT 
vertical line "He who accepts words is lost,
He who adheres to phrases is deluded."
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151110
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from cinchona
Apr.18.2013
05:58AM EDT 
vertical line "The mind is everything" said Buddha, and still we ask where.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151114
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Apr.19.2013
01:08AM EDT 
vertical line The comments of Mumon are very brief:

Mumon's Comments:
If you grasp Joshu's answer precisely, there is no Shakyamuni Buddha before you and no Maitreya Buddha after you.

Words do not express fact,
Phrases do not reveal the delicate motion of mind.
He who accepts words is lost,
He who adheres to phrases is deluded.

So if you read and research with books you will only get words and phrases. If you interview a million people including Zen Masters you will only get words and phrases. And according to Mumon's comments words and phrases are useless to solve the koan....lol




vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151120
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from cinchona
Apr.19.2013
03:04AM EDT 
vertical line And Mumon too is a liar,
displaying all his delusion.
Clinging desperatly to his own words.
How conflicting.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151122
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Apr.19.2013
03:23AM EDT 
vertical line You think...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151123
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from cinchona
Apr.19.2013
09:19AM EDT 
vertical line yes, don't you?
I think he got close to it in the first line "Words don't express fact." But thats not quite true either, because words are fact, they are part of the expression, and a part of practice, and it's far better than butting heads or growling and fighting.

"From little things big things grow". This is the powerful action of words and thoughts.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151124
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Apr.19.2013
09:34AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line sometimes the wise people will push the not-so-wise into a corner, this is to prove (and not suggest or cajole into believing) the truth of the lesson.

Not saying i am wise

i have just noticed once all wasted pursuits have been pursued, and the river is swum to its end (mountain or sea) the tree has been climbed, it is realised there is no-where else to go and the answer was there all along. but without the pursuit (and its fruitless end) the truth would never have been seen. (noticed) 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151126
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Apr.21.2013
11:44PM EDT 
vertical line So anyone has figured out why Daruma came for the oak tree in the garden when it was not even a seed yet?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151174
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from cinchona
Apr.22.2013
03:28AM EDT 
vertical line a tree is subject to cause and effect reactions.
that's why "cause and effect."
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151179
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
Apr.23.2013
06:08AM EDT 
vertical line Why do you people keep thinking and talking about the tree instead of going and looking at it yourself? When you do that, you just say "oh" and smile. Then when you see some people talking about the tree in the garden again, you'll just say, "Why do you people keep thinking and talking about the tree instead of going and looking at it yourself?"
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151213
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Apr.26.2013
10:35AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "yes it's true, we just need to stop the conflict in our minds and direct our thoughts like a tree reaching for the sun, grow towards love and compassion, and children are the best teachers."
.........

One can not learn to have innocence ... one either is innocent or not
And, children need role models to learn what to love and how to love ... hahahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151298
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from cinchona
Apr.26.2013
07:39PM EDT 
vertical line yes, but without children we would not see the importance of love.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151309
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Apr.26.2013
10:15PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "yes, but without children we would not see the importance of love."
.........

Why do you keep reaching??? .... hahahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151316
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from cinchona
Apr.28.2013
07:55AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "So anyone has figured out why Daruma came for the oak tree in the garden when it was not even a seed yet?

"
.........

forgive me, i was unable to see what you meant by your ubderstanding of this story, but after contemplating it i now realise what you are saying, and do appreciatte you view, however it remains different to mine, but difference is a good thing as long as there are no harmful intentions.

my understanding of this is that Daruma didn't come to collect an oak tree but he went to china for the same reason the tree is growing where it is. Man and tree both have own nature - Tree lives and grows to its nature - Man lives and grows to his nature, so all remains part of nature. Daruma might be able to come up with some idea of why he went to china but he cannot describe to us the whole of nature.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151347
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from cinchona
Apr.28.2013
07:57AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "yes, but without children we would not see the importance of love."
.........

Why do you keep reaching??? .... hahahaha
"
.........

All branches reach for something.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151348
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Apr.28.2013
03:23PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "So anyone has figured out why Daruma came for the oak tree in the garden when it was not even a seed yet?

"
.........

forgive me, i was unable to see what you meant by your ubderstanding of this story, but after contemplating it i now realise what you are saying, and do appreciatte you view, however it remains different to mine, but difference is a good thing as long as there are no harmful intentions.

my understanding of this is that Daruma didn't come to collect an oak tree but he went to china for the same reason the tree is growing where it is. Man and tree both have own nature - Tree lives and grows to its nature - Man lives and grows to his nature, so all remains part of nature. Daruma might be able to come up with some idea of why he went to china but he cannot describe to us the whole of nature.

"
.........

That was a realy good answer .... thanks .... hahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151359
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Apr.28.2013
09:26PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "So anyone has figured out why Daruma came for the oak tree in the garden when it was not even a seed yet?

"
.........

forgive me, i was unable to see what you meant by your ubderstanding of this story, but after contemplating it i now realise what you are saying, and do appreciatte you view, however it remains different to mine, but difference is a good thing as long as there are no harmful intentions.

my understanding of this is that Daruma didn't come to collect an oak tree but he went to china for the same reason the tree is growing where it is. Man and tree both have own nature - Tree lives and grows to its nature - Man lives and grows to his nature, so all remains part of nature. Daruma might be able to come up with some idea of why he went to china but he cannot describe to us the whole of nature.

"
.........

That was a realy good answer .... thanks .... hahaha
"
.........

Good answer? How good? But I think it did not solve the problem...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151360
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from cinchona
Apr.29.2013
02:21AM EDT 
vertical line It's in our nature.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6Q0LpELroQ
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151374
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Apr.29.2013
02:39AM EDT 
vertical line Isn't it obvious that the thinking mind can never solve these questions? So why insist on solving them by thinking...lol
The most common sense thing to do is stop thinking and see...
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151379
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from cinchona
Apr.29.2013
03:12AM EDT 
vertical line do you think we can permanantly stop thinking? or should we just go with it as the observer? not getting attached to any thought.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151382
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Apr.29.2013
03:22AM EDT 
vertical line Why not do it  yourself and you will know...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151386
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from cinchona
Apr.29.2013
03:58AM EDT 
vertical line i lean more towards the inclusive, so i see thoughts as being part of the nature of man.


" Thoughtfullness is the path to attainment, Thoughtlessness is the parth to death.

The Dhamapada (sayings of the buddha)

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151387
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Apr.29.2013
04:07AM EDT 
vertical line Ok go ahead...lol .. who told you that...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151388
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from cinchona
Apr.29.2013
04:23AM EDT 
vertical line The Dhamapada is a book written about 900a.d and is built from original buddha scriptures, you find more about it on the web, the scriptures on buddhas methods is the largest collection of any other, and i know you can't believe everything you read or see or hear or think, but there are seeds in them all. Any idea, no matter what, be it empty or full or half full or empty is only an idea of an idea that someone has heard or read or gone in search for previously, "truth becomes." there is no stopping it.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151389
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from cinchona
Apr.29.2013
09:10AM EDT 
vertical line This might explain it better i got it off wiki, it turns out to be older than i thought dating back to 1st century BC, so don't listen to me have a read for yourself if you can find some. I only remember some quotes and certain things.


The Dhammapada (Pali; Prakrit: ?????? Dhamapada;[1] Sanskrit: ?????? Dharmapada) is a collection of sayings of the Buddha in verse form and one of the most widely read and best known Buddhist scriptures.[2] The original version of the Dhammapada is in the Khuddaka Nikaya, a division of the Pali Canon of Theravada Buddhism.
The Buddhist scholar and commentator Buddhaghosa explains that each saying recorded in the collection was made on a different occasion in response to a unique situation that had arisen in the life of the Buddha and his monastic community. His commentary, the Dhammapada Atthakatha, presents the details of these events and is a rich source of legend for the life and times of the Buddha.[3]
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151394
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
May.01.2013
06:15AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Ok go ahead...lol .. who told you that...lol "
.........

Just look for yourself. No one has to tell it.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151434
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
May.02.2013
06:37PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line

Quote: "It's in our nature.

.........

:)

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151585
horizontal line
 
Back To Topic List   Go to Top of Page

 



SUPPORT ZENGUIDE.COM
If you are planning on purchasing any product from amazon.com, you can help us out by using the search box to the right or by clicking on this link to begin shopping.


Purchase posters, art prints, media (music CD & DVD)

buy this WORLD RELIGIONS - BUDDHISM
by
Puchase this Item
More Art Prints & Media
Zen & Buddhism books
 
 
d
.
i
.
s
.
c
.
u
.
s
.
s
.
i
.
o
.
n
.

.
f
.
o
.
r
.
u
.
m
.
Copyright © 1999 - 2014 zenguide.com - All rights reserved. °