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  Posted on Aug.15.2009 @ 09:32AM EDT by chontri

Sakuladayi the Wanderer asked the Buddha:
-What is the past and what is the future?
The Buddha answered:
-Let the past be and forget the future. I will teach you that... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: SOURCE OF THE MIND
vertical line Posted on Apr.20.2013 @ 11:23AM EDT by SomeGuy
It's said that everything has a source. What is the source of the mind?





Thanks.
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Reply from football
Apr.20.2013
02:37PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line Soil in the garden
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151130
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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.20.2013
04:27PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line What is the sound of one hand clap ... would sound more familiar
S who does this help when there is no teacher to guide and lead the students??

If you really want to know the source of the mind then look for the source of your question .... hahahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151132
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Reply from leoj99
Apr.20.2013
04:45PM EDT 
vertical line The source of the mind is emptiness...lol.. so when it comes to the mind everything goes as you wish... 
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Reply from leoj99
Apr.20.2013
04:46PM EDT 
vertical line It is empty anyway..
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151138
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Reply from leoj99
Apr.20.2013
06:30PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "What is the sound of one hand clap ... would sound more familiar
S who does this help when there is no teacher to guide and lead the students??

If you really want to know the source of the mind then look for the source of your question .... hahahaha
"
.........

How come in the west they are fond of always talking of ... the sound one hand clapping...  but no one has shown or done and demonstrated it yet... they are just talking about it as if they got it...lol
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Reply from cinchona
Apr.20.2013
09:56PM EDT 
vertical line Buddha.
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Reply from justin
Apr.20.2013
11:33PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line because the sound of one hand clappping and where does mind come from are both the same question 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151147
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Reply from justin
Apr.20.2013
11:36PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line one hand clapping is the most commonly known zen koen in the west it is a phrase everyone knows and equates as the epitomy of zen thought.

another phrase which points to the moon.

but one which has become part of popular culture
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Reply from SomeGuy
Apr.21.2013
10:52AM EDT 
Email SomeGuy
vertical line Quote: "What is the sound of one hand clap ... would sound more familiar
S who does this help when there is no teacher to guide and lead the students??

If you really want to know the source of the mind then look for the source of your question .... hahahaha


"
.........



So it's unanswerable?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151159
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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.21.2013
04:37PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "What is the sound of one hand clap ... would sound more familiar
S who does this help when there is no teacher to guide and lead the students??

If you really want to know the source of the mind then look for the source of your question .... hahahaha


"
.........



So it's unanswerable?
"
.........

No, ... and Yes .... hahaha

Don't stand in moving water ... it will wash you away .... sorry, just day dreaming ... hahahaha
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.21.2013
06:49PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Perhaps ' mind' , thought  , thinking , is a result of attachment on emotions , desire , love , compassion , fear , will , ego , greed etc ......is the " self" .....so mind is part of the self .

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151161
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.21.2013
06:51PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Quote: "Buddha."
.........

Please explain as I do not find any reason to agree on this .

Thks

CSEe

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Reply from leoj99
Apr.21.2013
06:58PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "What is the sound of one hand clap ... would sound more familiar
S who does this help when there is no teacher to guide and lead the students??

If you really want to know the source of the mind then look for the source of your question .... hahahaha


"
.........



So it's unanswerable?
"
.........

No, ... and Yes .... hahaha



Don't stand in moving water ... it will wash you away .... sorry, just day dreaming ... hahahaha
"
.........

The smart guy said: No and yes..lol.. like his teachers...lol
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Reply from leoj99
Apr.21.2013
07:10PM EDT 
vertical line And yes and no or no and yes is a playing safe answer..lol
Not sure but he can always say I told you so...lol... really smart guys do that...lol
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Reply from justin
Apr.21.2013
08:31PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "And yes and no or no and yes is a playing safe answer..lol
Not sure but he can always say I told you so...lol... really smart guys do that...lol
"
.........

what is your answer ?
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Reply from leoj99
Apr.21.2013
11:39PM EDT 
vertical line I already said that the source of the mind is emptiness. So that means it is empty too. What answer do you want..lol
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Reply from leoj99
Apr.21.2013
11:41PM EDT 
vertical line So even if the mind says yes and no.. it is empty.. so it doesn't matter..lol
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Reply from leoj99
Apr.22.2013
12:53AM EDT 
vertical line And in many occasions I witness people talking about emptiness. The empty mind talking about emptiness...lol
So what do you expect... the great mixed up...lol
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Reply from cinchona
Apr.22.2013
03:18AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Buddha."
.........


Please explain as I do not find any reason to agree on this .


Thks


CSEe

"
.........

sure.
but first you must tell me what it is about it you don't agree with.
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Reply from justin
Apr.22.2013
07:52AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "I already said that the source of the mind is emptiness. So that means it is empty too. What answer do you want..lol "
.........

can you show me this place emptiness ?
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Reply from justin
Apr.22.2013
07:55AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line lol 
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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.22.2013
08:49AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "And yes and no or no and yes is a playing safe answer..lol
Not sure but he can always say I told you so...lol... really smart guys do that...lol
"
.........

Where do you abide?
Do you reside in your mind or body ... or is it both??
Maybe it is neither??

When the mind is empty, what is left??
The answer is simple. And, if given to you then you would not cherish it.
You would assign it no value.
But, let  you struggle to realize what the answer really is and you begin to learn where you really reside.
You learn what your face was before you were born
You learn the sound of one hand clapping
You learn the self does not exist
You learn whole of humanity is you
Then, your ego comes roaring back to rule your world
Without true understanding, the brilliance is lost
And dust settles on the mirror
And so laughter comes to grace the emptiness
And understanding balances the world
Madness?? Yes, like the madman in the desert.

Sorry, what was the question again??
Oh, the source of the mind ... ???
I put my two closed fist in front of you and ask you to choose.
I tell you one holds the answer
But, both hands are empty ... hahahaha

Where is my practice??
And, why do I sit??
Hmmm, Buddha ... what a wonderful notion .... haha
It is now time for me to go to sleep ... night all .... hahahaha
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.22.2013
11:40AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Quote: "Buddha."
.........


Please explain as I do not find any reason to agree on this .


Thks


CSEe

"
.........

sure.
but first you must tell me what it is about it you don't agree with."
.........

"
.........

sure.
but first you must tell me what it is about it you don't agree with.
"
.........

Perhaps " Buddha" is nothingness and nothingness is not the source of any therefore in my current understanding , mind is a reflection of pollutant and Buddhism is a PROCESS releasing this polluted energy towards emptiness back into nothingness - the Buddha .........so your version if I am not wrong is perhaps so different .

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151183
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Reply from justin
Apr.22.2013
01:23PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Buddha was a person who lived about 2500 years ago.

this person understood a method of enlightening, the great understanding of which thoughts are a tiny thing, words even less important.

he managed to understand a way to teach others to understand the untaught and un understandable.

if someone were to create nothingness in there mind they  have created it from somethingness.

otherwise it would not exist to them.

the idea of nothingness is a mind created dream.

also is the idea of somethingness.

both these ideas are a million miles from the truth.

just to give words and ideas is to create opinions and digress from what everyone already knows, without needing to know.






 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151184
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Reply from justin
Apr.22.2013
01:33PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "And yes and no or no and yes is a playing safe answer..lol
Not sure but he can always say I told you so...lol... really smart guys do that...lol
"
.........

Where do you abide?
Do you reside in your mind or body ... or is it both??
Maybe it is neither??

When the mind is empty, what is left??
The answer is simple. And, if given to you then you would not cherish it.
You would assign it no value.

i do not think it can be given, definatly there is scope for prompting

But, let  you struggle to realize what the answer really is and you begin to learn where you really reside.
You learn what your face was before you were born
You learn the sound of one hand clapping
You learn the self does not exist
You learn whole of humanity is you
Then, your ego comes roaring back to rule your world
Without true understanding, the brilliance is lost
And dust settles on the mirror

once there is a glimpse of this true understanding i do not think it is possible to revert someones zen will always change and continue to develope but the door shuts after you enter. and it can be most disconcerting and amazing at same time.

LIke the dude in the matrix who wants to eat computer generated steak again by being put back into the matrix, even though he knows it is from the machine.

And so laughter comes to grace the emptiness
And understanding balances the world
Madness?? Yes, like the madman in the desert.

haha the laughter :) the old croaking frogs laugh at us from the depths of time no time

Sorry, what was the question again??
Oh, the source of the mind ... ???
I put my two closed fist in front of you and ask you to choose.
I tell you one holds the answer
But, both hands are empty ... hahahaha

nice


Where is my practice??
And, why do I sit??
Hmmm, Buddha ... what a wonderful notion .... haha
It is now time for me to go to sleep ... night all .... hahahaha
"
.........

forgive my amendments and thankyou for this, 
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Reply from football
Apr.22.2013
01:33PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line "a method of enlightening"?..........no.........."method of enlightening".
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151186
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Reply from cinchona
Apr.22.2013
02:23PM EDT 
vertical line QUOTE
"Perhaps " Buddha" is nothingness and nothingness is not the source of any therefore in my current understanding , mind is a reflection of pollutant and Buddhism is a PROCESS releasing this polluted energy towards emptiness back into nothingness - the Buddha .........so your version if I am not wrong is perhaps so different."




Than this is the source of your current mind.
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Reply from cinchona
Apr.22.2013
02:31PM EDT 
vertical line It is not always a pleasant experience when the glass wall in our perception is shattered and we walk into the unknown.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.22.2013
07:02PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Quote: "QUOTE
"Perhaps " Buddha" is nothingness and nothingness is not the source of any therefore in my current understanding , mind is a reflection of pollutant and Buddhism is a PROCESS releasing this polluted energy towards emptiness back into nothingness - the Buddha .........so your version if I am not wrong is perhaps so different."




Than this is the source of your current mind.
"

Yes the source of my current mind is always from myself which is all my emotion/desire/love etc but not ME- the Buddha ...I am nothingness and myself is the pollutant - the attachment to me NOT cause by me . Buddhism is a natural process separating ME and MYSELF ....please explain your version in detail .

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151196
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.22.2013
07:12PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Quote: "Buddha was a person who lived about 2500 years ago.

this person understood a method of enlightening, the great understanding of which thoughts are a tiny thing, words even less important.

he managed to understand a way to teach others to understand the untaught and un understandable.

if someone were to create nothingness in there mind they  have created it from somethingness.

otherwise it would not exist to them.

the idea of nothingness is a mind created dream.

also is the idea of somethingness.

both these ideas are a million miles from the truth.

just to give words and ideas is to create opinions and digress from what everyone already knows, without needing to know.

Perhaps you are referring Buddha to Siddharta ....to me Siddharta was the person you mention but Buddha is nothingness - the nature of all being even the dirt on your hand .

In your version , nothingness is out of human desire but in my version nothingness is a condition NOT imagination .. you do not need to create desire to know it but as you progress you will be nothingness whether you like it or not .

If you found a special room , in my concept of Buddhism if you have desire to enter the room or imagine to be in the room you will never be in the room because you have the pollutant in you that creates the room which always something outside of you ........you will always chasing your shadow . Buddhism is a process that you will become the room , not be in the room ....and you become the shadow .

So if you keep on having thought on nothingness , you will always be outside nothingness ............but if you just awake to aware , aware to realize , realize to accept , accept to further aware without having any faith or beliefs ,as you progress yourself will be decreased , your emotion will be decreased and you will become the nothingness

Thks CSEe
"
.........

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Reply from justin
Apr.22.2013
09:30PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: ""a method of enlightening"?..........no.........."method of enlightening"."
.........

i am pretty sure their are more than one method, there have been many enlightened beings.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151199
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Reply from justin
Apr.22.2013
09:39PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "

Quote: "Buddha was a person who lived about 2500 years ago.

this person understood a method of enlightening, the great understanding of which thoughts are a tiny thing, words even less important.

he managed to understand a way to teach others to understand the untaught and un understandable.

if someone were to create nothingness in there mind they  have created it from somethingness.

otherwise it would not exist to them.

the idea of nothingness is a mind created dream.

also is the idea of somethingness.

both these ideas are a million miles from the truth.

just to give words and ideas is to create opinions and digress from what everyone already knows, without needing to know.

Perhaps you are referring Buddha to Siddharta ....to me Siddharta was the person you mention but Buddha is nothingness - the nature of all being even the dirt on your hand .

In your version , nothingness is out of human desire but in my version nothingness is a condition NOT imagination .. you do not need to create desire to know it but as you progress you will be nothingness whether you like it or not .

If you found a special room , in my concept of Buddhism if you have desire to enter the room or imagine to be in the room you will never be in the room because you have the pollutant in you that creates the room which always something outside of you ........you will always chasing your shadow . Buddhism is a process that you will become the room , not be in the room ....and you become the shadow .

So if you keep on having thought on nothingness , you will always be outside nothingness ............but if you just awake to aware , aware to realize , realize to accept , accept to further aware without having any faith or beliefs ,as you progress yourself will be decreased , your emotion will be decreased and you will become the nothingness

Thks CSEe
"
.........

"
.........
so what you say is, another version of:

 if someone were to (desire to) create nothingness in there mind they  have created it from (a desired) somethingness.

otherwise it would not exist to them.

the idea of nothingness is a mind created dream.

also is the idea of somethingness.

but then you might suggest there is a thing called nothingness or a place called nothingness, by naming and contemplating you create in your mind something as you say does not need creation, ?????
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Reply from leoj99
Apr.23.2013
12:00AM EDT 
vertical line Whatever you say even if you fill the whole universe it is all empty.. nothing...lol... it is all emptiness...lol

Look at the Zen Forums they are just talking endlessly of empty things...lol
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.23.2013
01:39AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line

Dear Justin , you said I quote "so what you say is, another version of:
 if someone were to (desire to) create nothingness in there mind they  have created it from (a desired) somethingness.otherwise it would not exist to them. the idea of nothingness is a mind created dream. also is the idea of somethingness.
but then you might suggest there is a thing called nothingness or a place called nothingness, by naming and contemplating you create in your mind something as you say does not need creation, ????? " un-quote

No .What I mean was , if you have desire to imagine " nothingness" , have the desire to be in " nothingness" , you will never be nothingness because you had created EMOTION and as long as you have this emotion / polluted energy , you will always exist of " somethingness" . Nothingness is always like a shadow , you will never catch ......but if you just aware / understand / discover / realized / accept your emotions and as you progress you will decreased all your emotion and leading to emptiness and back into nothingness .

So do not " set a target' or to have faith or beliefs , just learning to accept what you are and as you progress yourselves will be decreased and you will be the room not have the desire to go in the room .........

Thks

CSEe 

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Reply from cinchona
Apr.23.2013
03:20AM EDT 
vertical line outside the mind there is nothing,
the eyes are filled with blue mountains.
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Reply from football
Apr.23.2013
08:51AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line good anyway.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151216
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Reply from SomeGuy
Apr.23.2013
01:10PM EDT 
Email SomeGuy
vertical line Quote: "outside the mind there is nothing,
the eyes are filled with blue mountains.
"
.........



I assure you, if you died, the world would go on living.
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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.23.2013
10:54PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "

Dear Justin , ...

Thks

CSEe 

"
.........

Hahaha
He said the same thing you did ... so why do you feel the need to clarify or to think your understanding is different??
Could it be that you create more something out of nothing .... hahahaha
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Reply from leoj99
Apr.23.2013
11:09PM EDT 
vertical line I told you the mind is empty  but it  always talk with empty things...lol
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Reply from justin
Apr.24.2013
12:22AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "I told you the mind is empty  but it  always talk with empty things...lol "
.........

I think Leo you have convinced me; yes some peoples minds are empty.



but this is not related to the zen idea of 'empty of self'.
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Reply from leoj99
Apr.24.2013
12:26AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "I told you the mind is empty  but it  always talk with empty things...lol "
.........

I think Leo you have convinced me; yes some peoples minds are empty.



but this is not related to the zen idea of 'empty of self'.
"
.........

That is why there is no empty self because people think their mind is not empty..
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Reply from leoj99
Apr.24.2013
12:28AM EDT 
vertical line If the self recognizes that the mind is empty then the self itself drops to nothingness...lol
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Reply from justin
Apr.24.2013
12:44AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line your mind is obviously not empty otherwise you would be hooked up to life support, and not have so many things to say.

but your mind and my mind are one thing, we are connected in many ways,

as in now with this conversation, so this is how we can notice 'empty self'

we are not stand alone things,

in practice the idea of empty is in phases, at first it is important to be empty mind (this is the great doubt) in order to clearly see the situation you are in. (empty the cup)

after this the understanding of emptyness changes and you clearly see that all things are 'empty of self' in other words interconnected.

this is why the saying is: at first i saw trees and rivers, then i did not know if there were trees and rivers, after i see that there are simply trees and rivers.

if i could meet the old dead men who have written  in long mouldy books about emptyness i would ask them why they caused so much trouble in the would with their stupid ideas of empty mind. 
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Reply from justin
Apr.24.2013
12:57AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line somewhere someone has come across the idea of empty mind and imagined it.

the real mind has noticed something valuable in the teaching but is not sure what it is,  so it struggles with mentally understanding this idea.

the brain is divided into the logic part (which controls language) and the intuitive part (which has no language) so herin lies the problem. the logic talking mind does not understand what the intuitive mind intuits. it can not articulate this.

so teachers recomend to empty the mind of this logic (this is what Koens are for) and pracrice meditation without considering and to ignore the words of logic mind.

at some point the real mind will open up and show itself (if you are quiet enough) and the normal small mind understands the connection. But it is still not able to articulate this.

and it was my experience the logic mind runs away confused, and cowardly.

it talks and talks but when confronted by honest questioning and critical notice it shows its lack of understanding and takes a back seat.  but it is still in the car :)

so when the teacher says to empty your mind he knows this is impossible but he also knows it is the process of trying which facilitates the understanding.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.24.2013
03:29AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Dear Justin , ...

Thks

CSEe 

"
.........

Hahaha
He said the same thing you did ... so why do you feel the need to clarify or to think your understanding is different??
Could it be that you create more something out of nothing .... hahahaha
"
.........

"
.........

Hahaha
He said the same thing you did ... so why do you feel the need to clarify or to think your understanding is different??
Could it be that you create more something out of nothing .... hahahaha
"
.........

Dear master , you are refering to who ?

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151249
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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.24.2013
12:34PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Hahaha

He said the same thing you did ... so why do you feel the need to clarify or to think your understanding is different??
Could it be that you create more something out of nothing .... hahahaha

"
.........

Dear master , you are refering to who ?

Thks

CSEe


If you both said the same ... then who would I be referring to??

And if you are trying to learn to accept, to realize, to separate you from yourself then who am I referring to???

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151250
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Reply from *CSEe*
Apr.24.2013
09:30PM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Hahaha

He said the same thing you did ... so why do you feel the need to clarify or to think your understanding is different??
Could it be that you create more something out of nothing .... hahahaha

"
.........

Dear master , you are refering to who ?

Thks

CSEe


If you both said the same ... then who would I be referring to??

And if you are trying to learn to accept, to realize, to separate you from yourself then who am I referring to???

"
.........

"
.........

Justin or CSEe

Thks

CSEe

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151254
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Reply from Avisitor
Apr.25.2013
10:27PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "

Justin or CSEe

Thks

CSEe

"
.........

If it matters so much that you need an answer then where is your question coming from??
Hmm, seems to me that you have not separated you from yoursef ... ole master .... hahaha
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