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  Posted on Aug.13.2009 @ 07:45PM EDT by chontri
The way toward liberation is to train yourself to live in the present
without wanting to become anything. Give up becoming this or that,
live without cravings, and experience... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: HUI NENG
vertical line Posted on May.04.2013 @ 10:41AM EDT by football

The body is the wisdom-tree,

The mind is a bright mirror in a stand;

Take care to wipe it all the time,

And allow no dust to cling.

Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists,

Nor the stand of a mirror bright.

Since all is empty from the beginning,

Where can the dust alight

(Hui Neng)

What do you think?


Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email football
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Reply from cinchona
May.04.2013
11:48AM EDT 
vertical line very cool.

one of my favourite sayings is
"Since all is void, where can the dust alight?

i've heard a few different answers for this, some say there's no dust, others say there's no void, or there's neither. Recently i put this question to a master in holistic medicine and Zen philosophy,
her answer to me was:

"In the space between the void"

I like this answer because it does not deny the void or the dust it dosen't say that this is the answer, it basically says look for yourself and reminds me of the instant moment.
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Reply from cinchona
May.04.2013
11:52AM EDT 
vertical line This i read some time ago can't remember were it came from but i do know it was American Indian.

"At first children are taught to look where there is apparently nothing to see and listen when there is apparently nothing to hear"
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Reply from football
May.04.2013
12:50PM EDT 
Email football
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This reminds me a song lyricss(very little).

I think well known masters words are being certificated and others happen to be a song(lyric).

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Reply from football
May.04.2013
01:05PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line We can not add a line or anything to these certificated masters words while reading.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151720
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Reply from football
May.04.2013
03:23PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line Now I'm thinking the transmission to Hui Ko.Are we thinking the same thing?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151721
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Reply from leoj99
May.04.2013
04:09PM EDT 
vertical line

Hehe... You mixed them up...

When their Master was about to die he has not appointed a successor yet. So he instructed his disciples to write something to indicate their understanding of the Dharma so he choice who succeeds him.

So the Head Monk who was very popular and thought to be the successor wrote and stick it at the door of the room of the Master:

"The body is the wisdom-tree,

The mind is a bright mirror in a stand;

Take care to wipe it all the time,

And allow no dust to cling."


When Hui Neng who was the Tendo or cook and also an illiterate asked one of the monk to write his version of the Dharma and stick it besides the Head Monk at the door.


"Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists,

Nor the stand of a mirror bright.

Since all is empty from the beginning,

Where can the dust alight"

(Hui Neng)

When the Master saw it he called Hui Neng in the middle of the night and gave  his robe and bowl and stick to him as a symbol of succession. He instructed him to hide in the mountains and wait for several years because many will get jealous and the Master helped him to cross the river in the night... more of the story...


So the question is why was Hui Neng chosen as the successor. What is the difference between the two piece?

Hui Neng just almost used the Head Monk's words.....lol


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Reply from leoj99
May.04.2013
04:26PM EDT 
vertical line Does it make sense?....LOL
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Reply from football
May.04.2013
04:29PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line Life is a playground.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 151727
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Reply from Avisitor
May.04.2013
05:31PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Does it make sense?....LOL "
.........

Yes, of course it does ... hahaha
The first written by the head monk uses words and ideas to grasp at satori
The second knows it was always there ... nothing more was needed.
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Reply from leoj99
May.04.2013
05:51PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Does it make sense?....LOL "
.........

Yes, of course it does ... hahaha
The first written by the head monk uses words and ideas to grasp at satori
The second knows it was always there ... nothing more was needed.
"
.........

What did you say?...lol

I mean could you explain it a little bit more. Not too much...lol
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Reply from Avisitor
May.04.2013
06:39PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Does it make sense?....LOL "
.........

Yes, of course it does ... hahaha
The first written by the head monk uses words and ideas to grasp at satori
The second knows it was always there ... nothing more was needed.
"
.........

What did you say?...lol

I mean could you explain it a little bit more. Not too much...lol
"
.........

The head monks understands enlightenment but ony as an intellectual premise.
The second understands it in the experience of enightenment.
When you realize the truth, you know you have always had it. It was never lost.
It is just a matter of where you dwell.
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Reply from leoj99
May.04.2013
06:52PM EDT 
vertical line You mean the Head Monk learned it from what others have said... second hand info.

Hui Neng knows it from direct experience .. he was illiterate so must not have read anything....
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Reply from leoj99
May.04.2013
06:53PM EDT 
vertical line So could you explain the basic difference from your own point of view?
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Reply from Avisitor
May.04.2013
07:20PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "You mean the Head Monk learned it from what others have said... second hand info.

Hui Neng knows it from direct experience .. he was illiterate so must not have read anything....
"
.........

No matter, they both got the same information and guidance from their teacher.
One was ready the other was not.
What determines this?? I do not know.
But, it has nothing to do with reading or not reading.
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Reply from Avisitor
May.04.2013
07:27PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "So could you explain the basic difference from your own point of view? "
.........

No .... hahahaha
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Reply from football
May.04.2013
07:37PM EDT 
Email football
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not funny

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Reply from leoj99
May.04.2013
07:56PM EDT 
vertical line Yeah it is not really funny....we are getting serious .. yet you try to be funny..lol
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Reply from Avisitor
May.04.2013
09:06PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Yeah it is not really funny....we are getting serious .. yet you try to be funny..lol "
.........

No, I'm also serious that I can not describe the difference.
I can tell you about the head monks thoughts and how he understands or grasps enlightenment.
However, the second patriarch ... my words would go round and round and be quite useless.
So, No ... I can not tell you .... hahaha
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Reply from cinchona
May.04.2013
09:22PM EDT 
vertical line Zen master - appoints two men who are identical in every way and says "draw the blind" the two men stand and walk towards the window in the exact same way, the master says "one of them has it, the other has not."

Now who has it?
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Reply from leoj99
May.04.2013
09:24PM EDT 
vertical line That is one of the koans in the Gateless Gate...
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Reply from cinchona
May.04.2013
09:28PM EDT 
vertical line yes,

a little book by Meriam Levering, Zen Inspirations $8.00 from the book shop, very good.
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Reply from cinchona
May.04.2013
09:39PM EDT 
vertical line While everyone was busy studying, even the head monk, Hui Neng was watching.
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Reply from cinchona
May.04.2013
10:03PM EDT 
vertical line Did their master know Hui Neng was illiterate.
I think so.
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Reply from leoj99
May.04.2013
10:25PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "While everyone was busy studying, even the head monk, Hui Neng was watching."
.........

I already told I never read a Zen book.. someone think I was boasting...lol
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Reply from leoj99
May.04.2013
10:26PM EDT 
vertical line Hehe.. actually in Zen you just be watching...lol
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Reply from leoj99
May.04.2013
10:42PM EDT 
vertical line And not thinking...lol
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Reply from leoj99
May.04.2013
10:43PM EDT 
vertical line For how can you watch if you are thinking most of the time...lol
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Reply from justin
May.04.2013
10:58PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "For how can you watch if you are thinking most of the time...lol "
.........

yes, attention attention attention
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Reply from cinchona
May.04.2013
11:30PM EDT 
vertical line Watch what you are thinking.
sit by the river.
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Reply from leoj99
May.04.2013
11:37PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Watch what you are thinking.
sit by the river.
"
.........

Watch with you own eyes.. lol...
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Reply from cinchona
May.05.2013
12:18AM EDT 
vertical line Watch with your ears.
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Reply from leoj99
May.05.2013
12:26AM EDT 
vertical line And hear with your eyes....lol
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Reply from esoteric
May.05.2013
03:30AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "And hear with your eyes....lol "
.........

You're too busy laughing.
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Reply from leoj99
May.05.2013
04:06AM EDT 
vertical line So if no one spotted the error in Hui Neng's words you would be talking about it forever in the wrong context...lol

It is a classic example of talks in Zen Forum...lol..
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Reply from esoteric
May.05.2013
04:39AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Hehe... You mixed them up...

When their Master was about to die he has not appointed a successor yet. So he instructed his disciples to write something to indicate their understanding of the Dharma so he choice who succeeds him.

So the Head Monk who was very popular and thought to be the successor wrote and stick it at the door of the room of the Master:

"The body is the wisdom-tree,

The mind is a bright mirror in a stand;

Take care to wipe it all the time,

And allow no dust to cling."


When Hui Neng who was the Tendo or cook and also an illiterate asked one of the monk to write his version of the Dharma and stick it besides the Head Monk at the door.


"Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists,

Nor the stand of a mirror bright.

Since all is empty from the beginning,

Where can the dust alight"

(Hui Neng)

When the Master saw it he called Hui Neng in the middle of the night and gave  his robe and bowl and stick to him as a symbol of succession. He instructed him to hide in the mountains and wait for several years because many will get jealous and the Master helped him to cross the river in the night... more of the story...


So the question is why was Hui Neng chosen as the successor. What is the difference between the two piece?

Hui Neng just almost used the Head Monk's words.....lol


"
.........

The head monk understood form. Hui Neng understood no-form.

The real koan is in the fact that neither was correct, and therefore neither was chosen successor. Do you understand this? Read it carefully.
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Reply from esoteric
May.05.2013
04:42AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Zen master - appoints two men who are identical in every way and says "draw the blind" the two men stand and walk towards the window in the exact same way, the master says "one of them has it, the other has not."

Now who has it?
"
.........

Draw the blind.
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Reply from cinchona
May.05.2013
05:12AM EDT 
vertical line Hui Neng showed his understanding not by boastful words that claim understanding of dharma, but by allowing the lack of knowledge of the others to be known. Clearly the monks words were superior to the head monk, so Hui being one with some style, left it outside the head monks door, while the head monk displayed his lack of knowledge and was completely unaware of what was happening behind his back.
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Reply from cinchona
May.05.2013
05:21AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Zen master - appoints two men who are identical in every way and says "draw the blind" the two men stand and walk towards the window in the exact same way, the master says "one of them has it, the other has not."

Now who has it?
"
.........

Draw the blind.
"
.........


He is challenging your judgement.
you're supposed to slap him.
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Reply from esoteric
May.05.2013
05:37AM EDT 
vertical line I'm not sure there was anything more or less humble, subtle, or "behind the back" about Hui Neng's post. He had another monk write it because he was illiterate, but it was signed in his name, else the Master wouldn't have known who wrote it. And it was posted on the door right next to the head monk's verse, as a direct response (and therefore confrontational correction).

The head monk's verse is about the gradual path to enlightenment, in cultivating purity through mindfulness. (Attention to form.)

Hui Neng's verse is about the sudden penetrating enlightenment, a realization of the inherent purity of all things at this very moment. (Attention to formlessness and oneness.)

Hui Neng received the bowl, staff, and robe of the succession and became the next patriarch in the lineage of Zen. Hui Neng's verse does not just show an understanding of formlessness, it also shows an understanding of how form and formlessness work together. This might be more readily seen in other translations of the verses. (I've never seen it translated the way it is shown in this thread.)
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Reply from esoteric
May.05.2013
05:40AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Zen master - appoints two men who are identical in every way and says "draw the blind" the two men stand and walk towards the window in the exact same way, the master says "one of them has it, the other has not."

Now who has it?
"
.........

Draw the blind.
"
.........


He is challenging your judgement.
you're supposed to slap him.
"
.........

Someone told you that. It's not correct.

There is no judgment. There is no one to slap. Only "draw the blind."
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Reply from esoteric
May.05.2013
05:44AM EDT 
vertical line "The real koan is in the fact that neither was correct, and therefore neither was chosen successor. Do you understand this? Read it carefully."
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Reply from esoteric
May.05.2013
05:45AM EDT 
vertical line They are both the same koan. Obviously you know this, or you wouldn't have added the one to the other.
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Reply from cinchona
May.05.2013
05:51AM EDT 
vertical line NO, they are not they same
one is about realization,
the other about judgement
read it again carefully.
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Reply from esoteric
May.05.2013
06:00AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "NO, they are not they same
one is about realization,
the other about judgement
read it again carefully.
"
.........

They are both about judgment and realization? Whose judgment? Whose realization?

:-)
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Reply from esoteric
May.05.2013
06:02AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "NO, they are not they same
one is about realization,
the other about judgement
read it again carefully.
"
.........

They are both about judgment and realization? Whose judgment? Whose realization?

:-)
"
.........

They are both about judgment and realization.* [Period, not a question mark.] Whose judgment? Whose realization?

:-)
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Reply from cinchona
May.05.2013
06:05AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "NO, they are not they same
one is about realization,
the other about judgement
read it again carefully.
"
.........

They are both about judgment and realization? Whose judgment? Whose realization?

:-)
"
.........

yes i agree.
but there is no judgement in Hui Nengs story, it is only there to be observed by the reader, if you know what i mean. While in the other it is filled with judgement for your realization.

:))
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Reply from cinchona
May.05.2013
06:11AM EDT 
vertical line Hui enlightened the monk, the head monk, and the master, all without a word.
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Reply from esoteric
May.05.2013
06:14AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "NO, they are not they same
one is about realization,
the other about judgement
read it again carefully.
"
.........

They are both about judgment and realization? Whose judgment? Whose realization?

:-)
"
.........

yes i agree.
but there is no judgement in Hui Nengs story, it is only there to be observed by the reader, if you know what i mean. While in the other it is filled with judgement for your realization.

:))
"
.........

the master says "one of them has it, the other has not."

Now who has it?

"When their Master was about to die he has not appointed a successor yet. So he instructed his disciples to write something to indicate their understanding of the Dharma so he choice who succeeds him....When Hui Neng who was the Tendo or cook and also an illiterate asked one of the monk to write his version of the Dharma and stick it besides the Head Monk at the door....When the Master saw it he called Hui Neng in the middle of the night and gave  his robe and bowl and stick to him as a symbol of succession."
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Reply from esoteric
May.05.2013
06:16AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Hui enlightened the monk, the head monk, and the master, all without a word."
.........

Yes. :-)
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Reply from esoteric
May.05.2013
06:17AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Hui enlightened the monk, the head monk, and the master, all without a word."
.........

Yes. :-)
"
.........

And no. :-P
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Reply from cinchona
May.05.2013
06:19AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "NO, they are not they same
one is about realization,
the other about judgement
read it again carefully.
"
.........

They are both about judgment and realization? Whose judgment? Whose realization?

:-)
"
.........

yes i agree.
but there is no judgement in Hui Nengs story, it is only there to be observed by the reader, if you know what i mean. While in the other it is filled with judgement for your realization.

:))
"
.........

the master says "one of them has it, the other has not."

Now who has it?

"When their Master was about to die he has not appointed a successor yet. So he instructed his disciples to write something to indicate their understanding of the Dharma so he choice who succeeds him....When Hui Neng who was the Tendo or cook and also an illiterate asked one of the monk to write his version of the Dharma and stick it besides the Head Monk at the door....When the Master saw it he called Hui Neng in the middle of the night and gaveĀ  his robe and bowl and stick to him as a symbol of succession."
"
.........


I was waiting for it.

:)
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Reply from esoteric
May.05.2013
06:25AM EDT 
vertical line I'm just smiling because I'm watching the blinds being drawn. :-D
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Reply from cinchona
May.05.2013
06:30AM EDT 
vertical line light coming through two windows - fills the room as one. :))


The robe the bowl and the stick are of little significance compared to the realization.
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Reply from cinchona
May.05.2013
06:37AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "They are both the same koan. Obviously you know this, or you wouldn't have added the one to the other.

"
.........

yes and no i think you know
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Reply from Avisitor
May.05.2013
09:18AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line The head monks realization of the Dharma was a conceptual one ... intellectual.
The cooks realization was one of experience.
The bowl and robe are for others to know who holds the true Dharma
So that others could find a true teacher.
And ultimately, find liberation from craving and ignorance ... putting an end to suffering.

And the answer to the koan is the one who can hold the bowl and robe .... hahaha
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Reply from justin
May.05.2013
10:33AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line seeing things as is, no need to invent descriptions, because then you have descriptions.

the photo of a person, or the person, or even that .........
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Reply from nibble
May.05.2013
12:24PM EDT 
vertical line As a fotnote, there was a third poem the next morning from the headmonk that for some obscure reason has gone into history`s obscurity.

`But from emptiness thing arise,
Even dust, and it`s despice.
And... Awh, F it, I want to be the new master!! Can`t I? Pretty Pleeease??
`
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Reply from esoteric
May.05.2013
03:19PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "As a fotnote, there was a third poem the next morning from the headmonk that for some obscure reason has gone into history`s obscurity.

`But from emptiness thing arise,
Even dust, and it`s despice.
And... Awh, F it, I want to be the new master!! Can`t I? Pretty Pleeease??
`
"
.........

LOL :-D
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Reply from leoj99
May.05.2013
05:55PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "The head monks realization of the Dharma was a conceptual one ... intellectual.
The cooks realization was one of experience.
The bowl and robe are for others to know who holds the true Dharma
So that others could find a true teacher.
And ultimately, find liberation from craving and ignorance ... putting an end to suffering.

And the answer to the koan is the one who can hold the bowl and robe .... hahaha
"
.........

Now I think you are hitting the target...lol
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Reply from leoj99
May.05.2013
05:57PM EDT 
vertical line Look at what football started...lol.. you started confusion...lol
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Reply from leoj99
May.05.2013
05:58PM EDT 
vertical line The head monk was still thinking. Hui Neng was not thinking..he is an illiterate,. he must not be so knowledgeable...lol
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Reply from leoj99
May.05.2013
06:01PM EDT 
vertical line Hui Neng the illiterate was the 5th Patriarch of Zen... 
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Reply from leoj99
May.05.2013
06:11PM EDT 
vertical line Hui Neng the Tendo and illiterate was once sweeping the garden. As he was sweeping he swept a pebble and flew and hit at bamboo... tok.... and he got enlightened... thats it...

No reading books, no internet Zen Forums...lol
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Reply from esoteric
May.05.2013
10:13PM EDT 
vertical line "Getting enlightened" is not an end. And it's certainly not the sole qualification for being given the status of teacher.
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Reply from esoteric
May.05.2013
10:17PM EDT 
vertical line Hui Neng was given the symbols of the station of teacher, but he did not begin teaching until several years later, because he wasn't ready to teach when he was given the symbols.
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Reply from esoteric
May.05.2013
10:19PM EDT 
vertical line Correction: He wasn't ready to take up the office of teacher. But he was already teaching. And so are you.
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Reply from justin
May.05.2013
11:12PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "Correction: He wasn't ready to take up the office of teacher. But he was already teaching. And so are you. "
.........

happiness is only real when shared, as is understanding, knowledge, etc.

we are one,
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Reply from cinchona
May.06.2013
12:10AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "As a fotnote, there was a third poem the next morning from the headmonk that for some obscure reason has gone into history`s obscurity.

`But from emptiness thing arise,
Even dust, and it`s despice.

"
.........


'the space between the void'
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Reply from cinchona
May.06.2013
12:15AM EDT 
vertical line lesson 1 - work and dilligence (head monk)
lesson 2 - emptiness (monk)
lesson 3 - awareness (Hui Neng)
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Reply from leoj99
May.06.2013
12:25AM EDT 
vertical line I think you are all getting lost as usual...lol
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Reply from leoj99
May.06.2013
12:26AM EDT 
vertical line You make too many assumptions...
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Reply from leoj99
May.06.2013
12:27AM EDT 
vertical line How did you know all those  things... lol... were you there?
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Reply from cinchona
May.06.2013
12:27AM EDT 
vertical line this is the tree fold path that we experience again and again, it's a bit like the ox herding pictures. Ideally you want to be in awareness but that cannot be achieved without first going through the first two lessons, the lessons seem to go in backward order first we understand the head monk, then we understand the monk, then we understand Hui Neng. It is because of this backwardness that Hui Neng, the aware one, has to leave or get accused by those who are intelligent yet unaware.
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Reply from leoj99
May.06.2013
12:44AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "this is the tree fold path that we experience again and again, it's a bit like the ox herding pictures. Ideally you want to be in awareness but that cannot be achieved without first going through the first two lessons, the lessons seem to go in backward order first we understand the head monk, then we understand the monk, then we understand Hui Neng. It is because of this backwardness that Hui Neng, the aware one, has to leave or get accused by those who are intelligent yet unaware."
.........

I don't think so... that is too complicated...lol
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Reply from cinchona
May.06.2013
12:50AM EDT 
vertical line similiar to the state of the world, if you don't have a qualification then your a reject, no one will believe anything you say.
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Reply from leoj99
May.06.2013
12:53AM EDT 
vertical line Even if they have qualifications why do you believe what others say on existential matters...lol... on technical things you may believe others .. but not on spiritual matters...
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Reply from cinchona
May.06.2013
01:20AM EDT 
vertical line precisely, that is the teaching of the koan.

the poems are only an examination of the natural process of learning.
would you agree?
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Reply from leoj99
May.06.2013
02:02AM EDT 
vertical line If I agree am I correct?...lol
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Reply from leoj99
May.06.2013
02:04AM EDT 
vertical line It test your understanding of the Dharma.. you should show it to your Roshi.. talking is not enough...lol
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Reply from leoj99
May.06.2013
02:06AM EDT 
vertical line If you just talk the Roshi will ring the bell on you in 3 minutes and you must leave the docusan room...lol
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Reply from cinchona
May.06.2013
02:48AM EDT 
vertical line as i thought, you cannot think of an answer.
when we cannot think of an answer, we hide, why is that?

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Reply from cinchona
May.06.2013
02:49AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "If I agree am I correct?...lol

"
.........


what's to be correct for?
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Reply from leoj99
May.06.2013
03:26AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "as i thought, you cannot think of an answer.
when we cannot think of an answer, we hide, why is that?

"
.........

Of course if you talk you smells bad...lol
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Reply from leoj99
May.06.2013
03:28AM EDT 
vertical line But as you can see.. I spotted the error of Hui Neng's words.. isn't that enough...lol
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Reply from esoteric
May.06.2013
03:28AM EDT 
vertical line He doesn't know how to say "I don't know."
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Reply from esoteric
May.06.2013
03:29AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "But as you can see.. I spotted the error of Hui Neng's words.. isn't that enough...lol "
.........

I didn't see that. Show me again. Where is the error in Hui Neng's words?
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Reply from leoj99
May.06.2013
03:37AM EDT 
vertical line You did not see?.. The original thread it mixed the two verses and all attributed to Hui Neng's..lol
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Reply from leoj99
May.06.2013
03:44AM EDT 
vertical line You mean your daughter is showing up in this Zen Forum.. why?
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Reply from leoj99
May.06.2013
03:44AM EDT 
vertical line This is not for kids.. or kiddies...lol
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Reply from esoteric
May.06.2013
05:03AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "You did not see?.. The original thread it mixed the two verses and all attributed to Hui Neng's..lol "
.........

That was not the error of Hui Neng's words. You need to look again.
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Reply from esoteric
May.06.2013
05:05AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "You mean your daughter is showing up in this Zen Forum.. why? "
.........

Fish in a bowl, going round and round. Watch out, my daughter is a cat, and here she comes.
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Reply from justin
May.06.2013
09:59AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line children see straight through all the crap,

without trying,
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Reply from leoj99
May.07.2013
12:45AM EDT 
vertical line I think you guys are really hopeless...lol
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Reply from justin
May.07.2013
04:09AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line coming from you that means something,

lol
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Reply from justin
May.07.2013
04:10AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line i say it before i say it again 'you know where the ignore button is' mr lol 
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Reply from esoteric
May.07.2013
06:21AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "I think you guys are really hopeless...lol "
.........

Mirror man.

It's okay, leoj99. You are not hopeless. Just a little confused.

Have a cup of tea.
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Reply from leoj99
May.08.2013
12:50AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "I think you guys are really hopeless...lol "
.........

Mirror man.

It's okay, leoj99. You are not hopeless. Just a little confused.

Have a cup of tea.
"
.........

So are you sure you are not all confused?...lol..

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Reply from esoteric
May.08.2013
03:38AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "I think you guys are really hopeless...lol "
.........

Mirror man.

It's okay, leoj99. You are not hopeless. Just a little confused.

Have a cup of tea.
"
.........

So are you sure you are not all confused?...lol..

"
.........

I don't know everything.
But I know coffee when I drink it.
And I know when there is no coffee.
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Reply from justin
May.08.2013
07:56AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line mr Leo does not like western people but then talks about 'most' people ??? do you know where most people come from mr Leo, i give you a hint it is not the west :) 
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Reply from justin
May.08.2013
07:57AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line i miss Joe chip 
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Reply from esoteric
May.08.2013
08:34AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "i miss Joe chip  "
.........

He was getting a little surly, along with starduster. I understand why Alan got fed up with it.

I hope they're doing alright now, and Shayne too.
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Reply from justin
May.08.2013
10:49AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line ah Shayne i miss him too, yeh i had him on ignore for months :) (Joe that is) but i think when i actually took the time to get past my ego (after i un-ignored him) i learnt from  him.

the bee he loosed in my bonnet, was my own.
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Reply from esoteric
May.08.2013
01:10PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "ah Shayne i miss him too, yeh i had him on ignore for months :) (Joe that is) but i think when i actually took the time to get past my ego (after i un-ignored him) i learnt from  him.

the bee he loosed in my bonnet, was my own.
"
.........

He did have a way of loosing bees in bonnets. But I think he confused himself with the bees, and didn't understand when it was time to stop stinging.
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Reply from leoj99
May.09.2013
12:29AM EDT 
vertical line Mr. Starduster said everything is empty. I said ram your car against a wall and you will know if everything is empty. lol

He got mad.. wondering why.. I think he said he had a powerful enlightenment experience...lol
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Reply from leoj99
May.09.2013
12:31AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "mr Leo does not like western people but then talks about 'most' people ??? do you know where most people come from mr Leo, i give you a hint it is not the west :)  "
.........

I did not say I don't like western people. I just referring to them about my observation as they are mostly at Zen Forums...lol

Come to think of it many of the videos I shared are from the west...lol
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Reply from justin
May.09.2013
01:26AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "mr Leo does not like western people but then talks about 'most' people ??? do you know where most people come from mr Leo, i give you a hint it is not the west :)  "
.........

I did not say I don't like western people. I just referring to them about my observation as they are mostly at Zen Forums...lol

Come to think of it many of the videos I shared are from the west...lol
"
.........

Zen forums are not by any means indicative of 'western' thought. For that you need to look at Platonic, Socratic forums if they exist. wow talk about horns.

I think you are serious about this stuff, that is good.

I also think you have spent a lot of time being treated in the same manner you would like to treat other here. I understand. you have a purpose, a motive as yet i am unsure what that is. that is also good, you talk about what it is you know.

But can you see it does not work ?

If your motives are to help, then they need changing and adapting to the situation you now find yourself, as all teachers must do. (you will learn a lot about yourself from that.)

It is hard for Western and Eastern thought to align, but not impossible.

we are all here to learn, sometimes shock and awe does work but sometimes gentle steering works better. Machavelli had it when he said roughly: you want the person to be directed where you choose but thinking they choose that path themselves.

when people butt heads it just causes headaches.
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Reply from esoteric
May.09.2013
01:46AM EDT 
vertical line Justin, he's stuck in a repetitive thought process and has no idea what he's talking about.

I'm just watching, and seeing if he can work his way out of it.
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Reply from justin
May.09.2013
02:09AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line At this point i would like to add a interesting piece of information Mr Leo might not be aware of. I have been visiting Zenguide for a while, as has mr Eso, both of us have been called to task many times.

I have seen change and growth in all the people here, many times i was (am) confused by the reaction i receive but it has always been good for me. I have experienced the complete gambit of instruction, ridicule, shock, compassion, gentle persuasion, caring consideration (from people way beyond my understanding) aggressive argument. I would suggest all of it compassionately considered and skilfully administered.

And for this i am grateful,
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Reply from esoteric
May.09.2013
02:33AM EDT 
vertical line :-)
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Reply from leoj99
May.09.2013
02:50AM EDT 
vertical line What change?... like your topic.... is is is...lol
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Reply from esoteric
May.09.2013
03:07AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "What change?... like your topic.... is is is...lol "
.........

No, not like that at all.
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Reply from justin
May.09.2013
03:44AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "What change?... like your topic.... is is is...lol "
.........

This change,
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Reply from leoj99
May.09.2013
11:43PM EDT 
vertical line So what is, is , is... is...lol
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Reply from justin
May.09.2013
11:52PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line just that, 
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Reply from zenmanstan
May.10.2013
12:07AM EDT 
Email zenmanstan
vertical line the heart is empty, no self to be found in an enlightened person.
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