history principles practice stories, books, media discussion forum organizations resources
zenguide.com logo
 
Thursday Sep 18 2014 01:39AM ET
º login º register º email º guestbook º printer friendly
grey dot
  One day, a monk traveled into the mountain where Gensha Shibi resided
to see the Zen master and study Zen with him. The monk said to Gensha:
-I am a new comer, please be kind to tell me where I can enter the Zen gate.
Gensha... continue...

z
.
e
.
n
menu left history menu spacer principles menu spacer practice menu spacer zen media menu spacer discussion forum menu spacer organization directory menu spacer resources  
login
  DISCUSSION FORUM
» topic list   » start a new topic   » my tracked topics   » view topic
grey dot

horizontal line
→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: THE FLOWER SERMON
vertical line Posted on May.10.2013 @ 01:20AM EDT by esoteric
What if no one had smiled when the Buddha held up a flower?

What would that mean?

How would Siddhartha have felt, and what would he have known about that situation?

Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
May.10.2013
01:35AM EDT 
vertical line It means you are just speculating...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152156
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
May.10.2013
04:12AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "It means you are just speculating...lol "
.........

Are you not speculating?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152159
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
May.10.2013
08:15AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line ask the Buddha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152182
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
May.10.2013
08:32AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line Does Buddha has to come up from every place?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152185
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
May.10.2013
12:22PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line you think i say  Siddhartha ?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152191
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
May.11.2013
09:11PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Does Buddha has to come up from every place?"
.........

Buddha just comes up when and where Buddha comes up, just like rain, or a stranger who waves and says hello.

Do you shake hands with the rain and open your umbrella against a stranger?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152221
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
May.12.2013
01:52AM EDT 
vertical line So first do you know why Mahakasyapa smiled when the Buddha raised a flower? You should know that instead of asking if no one smiled...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152225
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
May.12.2013
02:51AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "So first do you know why Mahakasyapa smiled when the Buddha raised a flower? You should know that instead of asking if no one smiled...lol "
.........

Read my original questions. Does it look like I know or not?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152229
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
May.12.2013
03:06AM EDT 
vertical line I think you do not know.. thats why you asked ... what if instead...lol;
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152231
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
May.12.2013
03:15AM EDT 
vertical line If you knew the answer of the real question you should not have asked another which is a fictitious question..lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152237
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
May.12.2013
04:17AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "If you knew the answer of the real question you should not have asked another which is a fictitious question..lol "
.........

What is the real question?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152243
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
May.12.2013
04:22AM EDT 
vertical line Question
QUESTION: What was the name of the disciple who smiled when Buddha raised the flower?

ANSWER: It was time for Buddha's sermon, and everyone in the crowd expected him to explain Truth. Instead, he just stood silently for a few minutes, then held up a flower. No one understood. Then Mahakashyapa smiled. Buddha said, "I have got the wondrous Dharma seal of the Supremely Enlightened Mind, the Gateless Gate to Formless Nirvana. I now transmit it to Mahakashyapa."

The question in the koan is why did Mahakashyapa smiled?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152245
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
May.12.2013
05:14AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Question
QUESTION: What was the name of the disciple who smiled when Buddha raised the flower?

ANSWER: It was time for Buddha's sermon, and everyone in the crowd expected him to explain Truth. Instead, he just stood silently for a few minutes, then held up a flower. No one understood. Then Mahakashyapa smiled. Buddha said, "I have got the wondrous Dharma seal of the Supremely Enlightened Mind, the Gateless Gate to Formless Nirvana. I now transmit it to Mahakashyapa."

The question in the koan is why did Mahakashyapa smiled?
"
.........

What is the real question?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152248
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
May.12.2013
12:50PM EDT 
vertical line I suspect you are autistic...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152251
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
May.12.2013
06:34PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "I suspect you are autistic...lol "
.........

That's why you can't say the real question.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152257
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
May.12.2013
06:51PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Question
QUESTION: What was the name of the disciple who smiled when Buddha raised the flower?

ANSWER: It was time for Buddha's sermon, and everyone in the crowd expected him to explain Truth. Instead, he just stood silently for a few minutes, then held up a flower. No one understood. Then Mahakashyapa smiled. Buddha said, "I have got the wondrous Dharma seal of the Supremely Enlightened Mind, the Gateless Gate to Formless Nirvana. I now transmit it to Mahakashyapa."

The question in the koan is why did Mahakashyapa smiled?
"
.........

When you understand that question, then you will understand the questions I asked in the original post above.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152259
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
May.12.2013
06:56PM EDT 
vertical line When the Buddha held up the flower, Mahakasyapa saw with the same eye as the Buddha. The smile shared was the seal of this communion.

Where is your seal?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152260
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
May.12.2013
07:04PM EDT 
vertical line Leoj99 likes to "lol" a lot, but I never see him smile.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152261
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
May.12.2013
08:37PM EDT 
vertical line What seal are you talking about? If he saw what the Buddha saw, as same eye as the Buddha what is it?...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152262
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
May.12.2013
08:39PM EDT 
vertical line What seal of the communion are you talking about?
If they saw the same thing what is it?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152263
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
May.12.2013
11:13PM EDT 
vertical line I think this "seal of communion" is one of those phrases many people use that seems they are revealing something profound. But they don't really mean anything. The one who says is think he knows but really don't know anything. These phrases usually used because they have heard it somewhere and seems very meaningful but actually it has no meaning at all..lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152267
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
May.13.2013
03:32AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "I think this "seal of communion" is one of those phrases many people use that seems they are revealing something profound. But they don't really mean anything. The one who says is think he knows but really don't know anything. These phrases usually used because they have heard it somewhere and seems very meaningful but actually it has no meaning at all..lol "
.........

It has a very specific meaning, Leoj99. And a simple one.

Communion is a late Latin word meaning "share together", and comes from Latin "communis" meaning "in common", from the words "com-" meaning "with or shared" and "unis" meaning "one". So, "sharing together as one." Communion is a shared experience, in this case the shared realization of what existence is, which inherently involves the realization that the the two who are sharing are actually one.

A seal is something that binds shut and keeps pure, and can at the same time be a sign of that binding of purity. In this case, the smile is the sign that Mahakasyapa understood the Buddha's most fundamental teaching, which involved the realization that he himself was also Buddha, along with the flower, and everything else that is.

Maybe this will help you, and maybe it won't. The fact that you did not understand the meaning of these words when their meaning is very clear, and the fact that you did not believe that they mean anything when people use them, is an indicator that you don't understand what the words point to, i.e. the meaning of the Flower Sermon.

Don't attach to any of these words. Not mine, not your own, and certainly not the words telling a story about someone who supposedly lived 2,500 years ago, involving a situation that may or may not have actually happened with no way of proving that it did.

Just look at what the words point at. And find the Real Question, and the Real Answer that goes with it.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152269
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
May.13.2013
04:11AM EDT 
vertical line In case you were wondering, I already knew the answers to the questions I posted, when I asked them. That's why I asked them.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152273
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
May.13.2013
05:22AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line

Quote: "Quote: "Does Buddha has to come up from every place?"
.........

Buddha just comes up when and where Buddha comes up, just like rain, or a stranger who waves and says hello.

Do you shake hands with the rain and open your umbrella against a stranger?
"
.........

I'm sure it's important.But I don't understand.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152274
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
May.13.2013
06:20AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line if it is appropriate for Buddha to come up it is appropriate, like using an umbrella in the rain ,
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152275
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
May.13.2013
06:21AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line if it is appropriate for the Buddha to come up it is appropriate, like using an umbrella in the rain, 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152276
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
May.14.2013
01:50AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "In case you were wondering, I already knew the answers to the questions I posted, when I asked them. That's why I asked them. "
.........

So what is the answer?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152293
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
May.14.2013
01:52AM EDT 
vertical line Yeah what seal of communion are you talking about...?..lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152294
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
May.14.2013
03:13AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "In case you were wondering, I already knew the answers to the questions I posted, when I asked them. That's why I asked them. "
.........

So what is the answer?

"
.........

Only you can answer it.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152296
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
May.14.2013
03:14AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Yeah what seal of communion are you talking about...?..lol "
.........

Only you can answer that, too.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152297
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
May.14.2013
11:28PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Yeah what seal of communion are you talking about...?..lol "
.........

Only you can answer that, too.
"
.........

Now if you have no answer you pass the ball as usual..lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152301
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from esoteric
May.15.2013
03:15AM EDT 
vertical line The answers are all right here in this thread. I can't make you see them if you don't want to.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152304
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
May.15.2013
05:03AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Yeah what seal of communion are you talking about...?..lol "
.........

Only you can answer that, too.
"
.........

Now if you have no answer you pass the ball as usual..lol
"
.........

if you stop dreaming about other people polishing your horns you will know the answer,
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 152318
horizontal line
 
Back To Topic List   Go to Top of Page

 



SUPPORT ZENGUIDE.COM
If you are planning on purchasing any product from amazon.com, you can help us out by using the search box to the right or by clicking on this link to begin shopping.


Purchase posters, art prints, media (music CD & DVD)

buy this CALLIGRAPHY SCROLL, TRANQUILITY
by George Caso
Puchase this Item
More Art Prints & Media
Zen & Buddhism books
 
 
d
.
i
.
s
.
c
.
u
.
s
.
s
.
i
.
o
.
n
.

.
f
.
o
.
r
.
u
.
m
.
Copyright © 1999 - 2014 zenguide.com - All rights reserved. °