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  Posted on Aug.20.2009 @ 11:07PM EDT by chontri

Bhikkhus, what is ignorance?
Not knowing suffering,
Not knowing the origin of suffering,
Not knowing the cessation of suffering,
Not knowing the path leading to... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: ZEN
vertical line Posted on Jul.28.2013 @ 03:44PM EDT by soup41
Whats Zen all about to you guys?

From what I've read here at the forum, the majority of the posts indicate that Zen is about mindlessness, inconsideration and a total lack of respect and self control.

I dont mean to generalize the entire board, it may be most of the regulars but not all, but most of the posts here at the forum are from 3 or 4 people, and they ruin what this could be because they are filling it with what comes across as a forum where people lack understanding of zen...yet its called zenguide.com.

What leads you to believe that Zen is about lacking determinism, lacking control of speech and simply asserting the first association that comes into mind?

Im pretty sure that in order too conquer the self, desire, and thus suffering, a certain empathy or at least sympathy for others is required, and the lack of one indicates a need of cultivation. A certain determinism, sense of purpose, discipline, control etc etc.

The mind is full of impulses, if you do not gain control of them, they will control you.

If you just say the first thing that pops in your head, simply because in your mind, you see an association to the thing said that is relative to the contents of your mind and then you say it or post it despite the context of the discussion then you lack understanding of Zen and buddhism.

If this is you, then you are under total control of your reactive mind and impulses and your meditation is an utter failure.

To control yourself, to bite your tongue, to not tear down what others are attempting are all study states of being that arise spontaneously in one who practices proper meditation, because meditation is about focus/self control among other things.

Zen is about meditation. Meditation isn't about sitting and controlling your breath. Breathing is the one thing that you don't have to control.

Meditation should be at the core of your being, when your not sitting, you should still be practicing.

How do you practice meditation without meditating? When your eating, just eat. When your done, do the dishes and while your doing the dishes, just do the dishes.

Im sure you've heard that before, but with zen there is a real lack of understanding of the principles people spout off as though they fell upon the realization themselves, and as though they understand the postulate that put forth the realization.

While you are doing anything, you will feel impulses, or your own compulsions, and often times we stop what we are doing because of the impulse/compulsion and we follow that impulse and left what we were doing undone, but more importantly, to give our selves to our impulses is to be unsteady, and under control of meaninglessness.

Many people are busy and have a lot on their plate. A single parent for instance has a lot to do.

Often times they'll be eating, then the remember that they also need to be doing this or that before the kids get home, so right in the middle of their meal, while they are still chewing, they get up following the impulse do what they felt compelled to do...they then get distracted by another impulse and go do that. Then they remember their meal. They go back to their food and its cold and dry, or soggy or whatever, and their digetive process gets imbalanced.

It is like that in meditation too, if you cant eat until you are full then you will be distracted by your thoughts while trying to meditate. You will also be cultivating a mind that is contantly givving itself to impulse and compulsion.

If this person practices zen, then they will have diffuculty in letting go of mental faculties to pay attention to nothing. No matter how much they practce meditation, they cant seem to get a grip on it. Their meditation does not lead to clarity, insight, or balance; they are completely lacking self control and their practice is just a superficial ritual with no substance because they see it as seperate. That meditation is something they do when they are meditating.

If, when you are eating you only eat, then that will reflect when you sit and meditate. If you sit and meditate propperly, then that will help you stay focussed and determined when you are in action.

If the members of this forum intigrated that concept, there would be alot less drivel corrupting the threads, the behavior of this forum would not be comparable to a forum of trolls with no understanding giving a bad name to Zen, causing Chontri to disasocate himself from the shameful disgrace this place has become.

People because of their studying, mindfulness and insight like to exchange philosophy, form unions because of agreements, and to sharpen their witts because of differing points of view. Yet if they come here to do it, it will have been a waiste of energy because some charlatan led you to believe that spouting nonsense just because an association arises in your mind, relative to the content of your subconscious.

To distract, derail, disregaurd the content and the energy and sincerity required to put forth a real idea that has value to anyone reading it because it is not just a random thing relative only to the person who made the quirky association is selfishness and shows a complete lack of understanding of Zen and buddhism.

When a discussion is taking place and you cant control yourself and you just spew out the association (that means little to others because the assocation is relative to you & the contents of your mind), regardless of the impact it has on the discussion, then you are being selfish and not progressing on the path, and your meditation is not meditation.

Its written down, #30 of the 37 practices of a bhodisattva that-

"30) If one lacks wisdom, it is impossible to attain perfect enlightenment through
the [other] five perfections. Thus, cultivating skillful means with the wisdom
that does not discriminate among the three spheres is the bodhisattvas’ practice."

So enlightenment comes spontaneously you could argue, but wisdom does not. If you guys think zen is about lacking control and something that does not require cultivation, then please refrain from using the term Zen to describe your philosophy, because you give it a bad name.

Jack Kerrouac is rolling in his grave reading the banter on this board thinking to himself "Oh Jesus! what have I done?"




Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email soup41
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.28.2013
03:46PM EDT 
vertical line Wow.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 153784
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.28.2013
03:48PM EDT 
vertical line if we come to sleep
we are His drowsy ones.

and if we come to wake
we are in His hands.

if we come to weeping,
we are His cloud full of raindrops.

and if we come to laughing,
we are His lightning in that moment.

if we come to anger and battle,
it is the reflection of His wrath.

and if we come to peace and pardon,
it is the reflection of His love.

who are we in this complicated world?
~ Rumi
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Reply from so_teh
Jul.28.2013
04:15PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Provided the Path is one, Who am I? Where am I going? and How can I serve?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 153787
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.28.2013
04:20PM EDT 
vertical line Now that you have your freedom, how will you hide it from robbers?
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Reply from so_teh
Jul.28.2013
04:28PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Thirty blows from the staff is equivalent to one IP ban from the Alan.

:)
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Reply from soup41
Jul.28.2013
05:14PM EDT 
Email soup41
vertical line Quote: "if we come to sleep
we are His drowsy ones.

and if we come to wake
we are in His hands.

if we come to weeping,
we are His cloud full of raindrops.

and if we come to laughing,
we are His lightning in that moment.

if we come to anger and battle,
it is the reflection of His wrath.

and if we come to peace and pardon,
it is the reflection of His love.

who are we in this complicated world?
~ Rumi
"
.........

What does this imply? That we are all one & everything is united by and within our being one and within the Buddha principle and essence? Or does it mean that everything is ego?

IMO, the answer is both, because nothing is true or false, but everything is true, yet everything is false. It is true that we are the buddha, and it is true that everything is an illusion, that I am delusional under the spell of samsara and its overlord, the one and only, "Me."

And that "I" am the source of the hyper-reality whos spell I am under and that my actions, and reactions, emotive state and cognition are under the control of the concept of self.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 153794
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Reply from soup41
Jul.28.2013
05:18PM EDT 
Email soup41
vertical line Quote: "Provided the Path is one, Who am I? Where am I going? and How can I serve?

"
.........

You are not an individual, but you are not nonindividual. You can love, you can gladly let go. You can work, but not for reward.

Where are you going? If you are, then you are going to die. If you are not, then you'll continue to spread light in all directions, only to return to where you began.

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Reply from soup41
Jul.28.2013
05:18PM EDT 
Email soup41
vertical line Quote: "Provided the Path is one, Who am I? Where am I going? and How can I serve?

"
.........

You are not an individual, but you are not nonindividual. You can love, you can gladly let go. You can work, but not for reward.

Where are you going? If you are, then you are going to die. If you are not, then you'll continue to spread light in all directions, only to return to where you began.

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Reply from soup41
Jul.28.2013
05:19PM EDT 
Email soup41
vertical line Quote: "Now that you have your freedom, how will you hide it from robbers?"
.........

It continually dwells where thieves can never find it.
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Reply from football
Jul.28.2013
06:17PM EDT 
Email football
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Whats Zen all about to you guys?

footprints (for now)

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Reply from football
Jul.28.2013
06:19PM EDT 
Email football
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soup41,

We are hanging according to our heads here.Why don't you join us?

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Reply from Avisitor
Jul.28.2013
06:30PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line On this forum, everyone post what they believe is right and relative to the previous posts.
Whether that be snippets or great wisdom ... who knows??
But, faulting others for not posting Zen??
Unless you have awakened your own mind and have shown others how to do the same, you have judged others too harshly.

The Zen Guide here at ZenGuide site is in the belief that we are all on the path. The history, principles, practice, stories, discussion and resources are all here. Don't judge this site poorly cause you don't see the brilliance in it.
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Reply from the alan
Jul.28.2013
08:15PM EDT 
Email the alan
vertical line Quote: "Thirty blows from the staff is equivalent to one IP ban from the Alan.

:)
"
.........

Hahahaha...I wish I had a dollar/euro for every time someone bitches about what is and isn't zen/zenguide.com

THE Alan
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Reply from leoj99
Jul.29.2013
01:25AM EDT 
vertical line So who are you to give a very long sermon like that..LOL.
Even the Pope don't give sermons that long...LOL





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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.29.2013
07:58AM EDT 
vertical line Catch bullsh it at four is the smell of one Papal Bull crapping.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.29.2013
08:10AM EDT 
vertical line There are those who believe that objects fall towards the Earth. This, however, is not true. They fall towards the Sun and the Earth gets in their way. And so it was, that he fell, the universe’s first anti-superhero, burning, onto the pavement that is homeless for rough sleepers.

. BANG[((( energy to matter to amoeba to fish to fowl to frog to naked ape in a monkey suit to beard, "Ears looking at you kid."


Buddha operates out of an office in the Vatican. When he isn’t writing Papal Bull, he’s in the basement overseeing the conservation of the mummified body of Jesus.
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Reply from football
Jul.29.2013
09:13AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line From Rumi to Jesus
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Reply from so_teh
Jul.29.2013
01:29PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Half past noon
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Reply from soup41
Jul.30.2013
12:10AM EDT 
Email soup41
vertical line Quote: "So who are you to give a very long sermon like that..LOL.
Even the Pope don't give sermons that long...LOL







"
.........

The question is, who the hell is the pope to giving such long meaninless spectacles of mindlessness? Such drivel, such billigerence and arrogance, so many people are led deeper into delusion by his generic bantering.

If the pope and I discussed the nature of reality, I don't think Id be walking away questioning my own beliefs, but one of us would.

Luckily, nobody buys my view; if they did, it wouldn't be zen. If as many people devoted themselves to what I am devoted to, as have done that with him, Id know I was also wallowing in delusion.

So who are you to question the leangth of the op in a thread in a discussion forum where the norm is selfish expressions of convulted compulsiveness?


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Reply from leoj99
Jul.30.2013
12:14AM EDT 
vertical line I am leoj99...LOL
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Reply from soup41
Jul.30.2013
12:36AM EDT 
Email soup41
vertical line Quote: "There are those who believe that objects fall towards the Earth. This, however, is not true. They fall towards the Sun and the Earth gets in their way. And so it was, that he fell, the universe’s first anti-superhero, burning, onto the pavement that is homeless for rough sleepers.

. BANG[((( energy to matter to amoeba to fish to fowl to frog to naked ape in a monkey suit to beard, "Ears looking at you kid."


Buddha operates out of an office in the Vatican. When he isn’t writing Papal Bull, he’s in the basement overseeing the conservation of the mummified body of Jesus.
"
.........

"in a thread in a discussion forum where the norm is selfish expressions of convulted compulsiveness?"

So the buddah works in the vatican so you think because someone mentions the pope that poosting this is on topic? This is my case in point.

Spontenaity happening does not mean you are flowing with zen. Zen "completes" all things, so there is no escaping zen, but you are fighting it.

These banterings that you guys in falseness believe are espontaneous xpressions of a quick unhindered mind, but a mind that is incredibly reactive and unfocussed.

A person who has cultivated a functional understanding of the essence and principle of zen, has a mind that is streangthened by zen. Propper meditation practice would streangthen your mind against this sort of reaction taking place when ever there is stimuli present, and the quality of the discussions in this forum would once again flourish.

What is happening when you guys do this is the arising of conscious. You see the word pope and it triggers a conscious. This also means you lost the focus you had and you were distracted by a rising conscious, and you did not let go. You made a mental fixation and a tangent took off with you.

Simple minded ones, what you think is some zen like poetic expression and free flowing spontenaity is nothing more then being taken away with everything practioners of zen work hard to gain control of and freedom from. It is done so that they are not the mindless product of a reactive mind jumping from one consciousness to another, never able to comprehend the moment they are actually in.

It is a disappontment that a forum called zen guide is full of threads with great titles, but the inner substance is the image of a group of monkeys who react to a word in a statement and go off on a tangent, then someone reacts to a word in that tangent and they get taken away by the tangent generated by their reactive mind and the arising of its conscious. Instead of anyone letting go of the arising thoughts, their egos get the best of them, they give their mental energy to the distraction then actually type up an expression of the reactive mind and post it in a thread.

Selfish and self indulgent. Some times if the reactive monkey didn't get there first, an active mindful person might have been inspired and spontaneously offered a response, donating and contributing to building something progresive, but you guys dont let the fact that there is the beginings of a discussion actually forming; you simply react to some stimuli, a consciousness forms and you selflesshly indulge and post your off topic banter and the discussion dies, no real ideas were exchanged.

You guys ruin topics here continualy, nothing geets off the ground and any reall practicioners who are sincere and devoted leave the forum and dont want to bother trying to communicate here anymore; like Chontri.

Buddhism has had an evolution and was one of the most progressive philosophies alive, but here it is dead. Even you monkeys that are scavaging the forum, looking for something to set off your jack kerouac reaction certainly have not gained any underrstanding of zen from your spectacles, you certainly dont spread any, and in know way share any insight.

The brightest of you seems well read when their trying real hard.
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Reply from soup41
Jul.30.2013
12:36AM EDT 
Email soup41
vertical line Quote: "There are those who believe that objects fall towards the Earth. This, however, is not true. They fall towards the Sun and the Earth gets in their way. And so it was, that he fell, the universe’s first anti-superhero, burning, onto the pavement that is homeless for rough sleepers.

. BANG[((( energy to matter to amoeba to fish to fowl to frog to naked ape in a monkey suit to beard, "Ears looking at you kid."


Buddha operates out of an office in the Vatican. When he isn’t writing Papal Bull, he’s in the basement overseeing the conservation of the mummified body of Jesus.
"
.........

"in a thread in a discussion forum where the norm is selfish expressions of convulted compulsiveness?"

So the buddah works in the vatican so you think because someone mentions the pope that poosting this is on topic? This is my case in point.

Spontenaity happening does not mean you are flowing with zen. Zen "completes" all things, so there is no escaping zen, but you are fighting it.

These banterings that you guys in falseness believe are espontaneous xpressions of a quick unhindered mind, but a mind that is incredibly reactive and unfocussed.

A person who has cultivated a functional understanding of the essence and principle of zen, has a mind that is streangthened by zen. Propper meditation practice would streangthen your mind against this sort of reaction taking place when ever there is stimuli present, and the quality of the discussions in this forum would once again flourish.

What is happening when you guys do this is the arising of conscious. You see the word pope and it triggers a conscious. This also means you lost the focus you had and you were distracted by a rising conscious, and you did not let go. You made a mental fixation and a tangent took off with you.

Simple minded ones, what you think is some zen like poetic expression and free flowing spontenaity is nothing more then being taken away with everything practioners of zen work hard to gain control of and freedom from. It is done so that they are not the mindless product of a reactive mind jumping from one consciousness to another, never able to comprehend the moment they are actually in.

It is a disappontment that a forum called zen guide is full of threads with great titles, but the inner substance is the image of a group of monkeys who react to a word in a statement and go off on a tangent, then someone reacts to a word in that tangent and they get taken away by the tangent generated by their reactive mind and the arising of its conscious. Instead of anyone letting go of the arising thoughts, their egos get the best of them, they give their mental energy to the distraction then actually type up an expression of the reactive mind and post it in a thread.

Selfish and self indulgent. Some times if the reactive monkey didn't get there first, an active mindful person might have been inspired and spontaneously offered a response, donating and contributing to building something progresive, but you guys dont let the fact that there is the beginings of a discussion actually forming; you simply react to some stimuli, a consciousness forms and you selflesshly indulge and post your off topic banter and the discussion dies, no real ideas were exchanged.

You guys ruin topics here continualy, nothing geets off the ground and any reall practicioners who are sincere and devoted leave the forum and dont want to bother trying to communicate here anymore; like Chontri.

Buddhism has had an evolution and was one of the most progressive philosophies alive, but here it is dead. Even you monkeys that are scavaging the forum, looking for something to set off your jack kerouac reaction certainly have not gained any underrstanding of zen from your spectacles, you certainly dont spread any, and in know way share any insight.

The brightest of you seems well read when their trying real hard.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.30.2013
07:11AM EDT 
vertical line I heard it said: the universe is like an onion. But an onion is all peel.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 153841
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Reply from Avisitor
Jul.30.2013
10:24AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Set upon the path to go against others and fight for your own opinions
There you shall find yourself forever pushing a small round rock up the hill.
And just before you make it to the top, the rock will come rolling down again for you to start again to push it up.
For how does one argue against a mad mind with no construct or limits?
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Reply from Avisitor
Jul.31.2013
02:15AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Here is a quote from Riverstone ...cause it has been a while ...

Your awareness is the practice.

The awareness before and after thinking, this is the practice. If your mind is chaotic with thought,
your awareness of this .. is the practice. A great effort to make your mind stop thinking is unnatural.
The practice facilitates the moments when thinking is practically not there, but it is organic, natural.
When you focus on an object so strongly, that you are no longer thinking this is called concentration practice.
The whole idea of concentration practice is to remain aware, but aware without the rejection of the flowing of the present moment.
Should that moment contain, irritation, chaotic thoughts, or pleasant feelings, it is your awareness which is the practice.
Attachment to discomfort or pleasure will cause you to spiral in many directions,
but acknowledgement and honoring what arises and falls away as you release it, this is the practice.
Awareness does not reject anything, it sees the arising thought, reflects the thought,
And it stops reflecting it when the thought is gone. Awareness is the mirror, undiscriminating in what it reflects.
You know when awareness is gone, that is when you remember to watch your breathing again,
And then, you are aware again. Breathing is incidental but it is a good lifeline when your mirror becomes clouded.
Eventually there is a slip that happens where thinking suddenly ceases. You can feel it, it feels like everything has gone quiet. This can not be made to happen.
When there is no awareness, you are controlled by your notions and will do much to protect the truth of your beliefs.
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Reply from leoj99
Jul.31.2013
04:13AM EDT 
vertical line Who is Riverstone...LOL
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.31.2013
06:18AM EDT 
vertical line Riverstone? He is rarely quoted outside the scriptures.
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Reply from football
Jul.31.2013
06:55AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line :)))))))))
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Reply from soup41
Jul.31.2013
02:24PM EDT 
Email soup41
vertical line I dont think I buy riverstones definition of meditation. I've experienced the egoless state so I am aware that what riverstone says is false, not to mention, the awareness I have is not mine, nor is his his, nor is "mine"seperate/differnt then "his". There is one awareness, one sense of being that we all share and it doesnt belong to any of us, nor is it born of form or phenomenon. It is born of the stillness that precedes time, it transcends time and is not a product or completely subject to time.

So riverstone can jump in a lake and sink and take his misleading doctrine with him :)
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.31.2013
02:52PM EDT 
vertical line The egoless state that can be experienced is not it.
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Reply from Avisitor
Jul.31.2013
03:16PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "I dont think I buy riverstones definition of meditation. I've experienced the egoless state so I am aware that what riverstone says is false, not to mention, the awareness I have is not mine, nor is his his, nor is "mine"seperate/differnt then "his". There is one awareness, one sense of being that we all share and it doesnt belong to any of us, nor is it born of form or phenomenon. It is born of the stillness that precedes time, it transcends time and is not a product or completely subject to time.

So riverstone can jump in a lake and sink and take his misleading doctrine with him :)
"
.........

You may have experienced the egoless state but you do not dwell there.
A light heart is better than a bitter one ... which have you chosen??
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Reply from Avisitor
Jul.31.2013
03:57PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "The egoless state that can be experienced is not it. "
.........

Thanks.
We know the truth.
But, Can we help others?
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.31.2013
04:48PM EDT 
vertical line The truth? I don't know, but [they will] think of something.
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Reply from so_teh
Jul.31.2013
05:49PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line I am not this body and mind.
I am not the self nor other.
I am absolutely not anything.

From the first there was the last,
Beginning of the beginningless/endless.

[Doesn't Know] from time eternal.
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Reply from Joe Chip
Jul.31.2013
06:19PM EDT 
vertical line Unknowing gnosis.
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Reply from so_teh
Jul.31.2013
06:34PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Joe's smirk.
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Reply from so_teh
Jul.31.2013
06:37PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Half smile, half smirk
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Reply from so_teh
Jul.31.2013
06:44PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Just mouth.
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Reply from soup41
Jul.31.2013
09:53PM EDT 
Email soup41
vertical line Quote: "The egoless state that can be experienced is not it. "
.........

The only reason you can even say that is because your utterly inoctrinated by gift shop buddhism. You have no experience but you regurgitate axioms that you dont understand and you do so in an expression that points out your reactive mind and that you are under control of its sporatic assertions.

The ego does not experience anything ever, to experience the egoless state is to have lost the senses of self and to realize that the sense of being and awareness that ego thought were a product of it, the things that do experience everything but were never born and transcend death are still there without the ego. It is a psychological state where in one does not feel individual or nonindividual

Anything comming from you, regardless of what it sounds like, if it is regarding zen, it is assuredly a question. The things you keep spewing from a place of inexperience are more then likely the things you most misunderstand.
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Reply from so_teh
Jul.31.2013
11:56PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line But soup...

There's no big deals in life because life is a big deal.

Big deal, right?
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Reply from football
Aug.01.2013
07:12AM EDT 
Email football
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All the Sayings of the country where I live is void.

to master Thich Nhat Hanh

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Reply from Joe Chip
Aug.01.2013
07:19AM EDT 
vertical line Since soup41's ignorant assumption refutes his previous position, I'll assume he's just being f[r]iendly.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 153897
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